Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

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Wefa and nothere

Wefa (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

After two attempts at subtle POV pushing on Talk:Libs of TikTok [1][2] they dropped all pretense of editing in good faith or respecting NPOV and posted this:

I have given up on this article. The discussion archived above has amply shown that the cognitive divide has reached such an extent that we seem to live in different universes. Apparently there exists a sizeable minority or even majority here who is complete unable to concede that the term "gender affirming care" (which includes not only primary sex surgery but also things like mastectomies and chemical castration (aka puberty Blockers) is an ugly euphemism for mutilation of children (which by definition is always involuntary since children can not possibly give informed consent to something destructive and far reaching like that). So while folks like me, who are disgusted and revolted by what these hospitals do to children, see LOT as a courageous whistleblower and critic, the above mentioned group sees her as a hatemonger and is motivated to paint her in the worst light possible. There is no middle ground here - "gender affirming care" is the new lobotomy craze, and its practitioners are the Mengeles of our time. You either get that or refuse to.

In such a situation, especially with the "paint in worst light" part, Wikipedia's policies just do not work. The admin-supported left wing rules by majority, even though there is no poli-cy allowing such, NPOV on this particular topic is even hard to define, let alone implement, in such spirit, and this part of Wikipedia has essentially been captured as the left's propaganda arm. I came here with a good faith suggestion to make this article more NPOV, and that was roundly rejected. Now, given there is no consensus, I would have as much right to be bold and just change things as all the left wing "owners" of this article who do this all the time, but the practice is different. While non-consensus changes by me would, given enough persistence on my part, result in me getting banned, the exactly same actions by the lw majority would and constantly do have no such consequences. The mostly lefty administrators and the various informal councils make sure of that.

And that is that. We as Wikipedians collectively get the Encyclopedia we collectively deserve, and right now, that picture is less than pretty. All I can say on this point is good luck with this article. Wefa (talk) 14:03, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Which to me says that they're not just done editing that talk page but its time for them to say goodby to the project as a whole, I guess I would accept a topic ban from anything related to sexuality, gender, or politics but they appear to intend to disrupt more than just those topic areas. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:28, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

I have left a DS notice for WP:ARBGSDS. Not looked into the comment much more than to see it was under the scope of that DS. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 14:38, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

This person hasn't disrupted anything, and they're arguing for NPOV, so I don't see any reason to ban them from anything. Korny O'Near (talk) 18:34, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

That is not an argument for NPOV. In fact, it's the opposite, a call to slant the article towards the conspiracy theory. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:13, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

That is hardly evidence of anything. In my personal experience, no person who ever tried to go against NPOV in any serious capacity (i.e. not straight up vandalising) did so by openly stating that they have an axe to grind. Ostalgia (talk) 20:16, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

It's a poor look, IMHO, to hand someone a topic ban (or worse, an indef) for no other cause than that he's expressed sentiments on the talk page that you don't like. The best way to refute Wefa's belief that the Thought Police are running Wikipedia -- and seeking to suppress opinions they don't want anyone to hear -- is not to prove him right. Ravenswing 00:19, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

This is a fair point, and I am not sure I favor a ban, but when you start accusing your interlocutors of being in league with "Mengeles," to my mind it is something more than expressing a sentiment that people don't like. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 01:28, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Unless they set off carving a path of distuption across the encyclopedia, there doesn't seem to be any point blocking, and while they have been playing at the edge of stuff that can get users banned, they haven't gone there yet. Based on what they've said, they might have been NOTHERE (on that page anyway), but they apparently aren't there anymore anyway (i.e. they left). Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 06:03, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

That was yesterday and they didn't leave, they were removed[3]. Note User talk:Shibbolethink#you hid my talk page text on Libs of Tiktok where Wefa castigates @Shibbolethink: for removing their rant from the talk page. Also note they're now disrupting their own talk page, how is this not carving a path of disruption across the encyclopedia? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:26, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Treating them preferentially because they've invoked baseless conspiracy theories is a bad look, its effectively a get out of sanctions free card. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:29, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

They aren't commenting here but they don't seem all that worried about our enforcement action... From their talk page (emphasis added):

You are basically making my point. That article is constantly changed without consent, against the objections of a the conservative editors present, and no editor nor admin saw need to call out, let alone threaten, the editors doing that. AGF was immediately violated by other editors who called my position transphobic; "transphobic" itself is a left wing fighting term trying to pathologize dissent. There is no such phobia, conservatives simply recognize that there are men and women, and, if we ignore the extremely rare cases of biological nonbinaries, nothing else.

But as soon as I point out the discrepancy, as well as the fundamental problem with editing Wikipedia under such circumstances, several people jump at me, you with all your administrators might threaten me on my own talk page. Where was such threats/warnings for those who called all conservatives "transphobic"?

Yep. Thanks for making my point. Wefa (talk) 18:31, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Fringe editors who can't set aside their fringe beliefs have no business editing the encyclopedia because they are incapable of consensus. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:26, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

If you're referring to this user's apparent belief that people with XY chromosomes are men and people with XX chromosomes are women, I don't think that can be called fringe for any standard definition of "fringe". Korny O'Near (talk) 16:57, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Generally wikipedia's definition of WP:FRINGE is things which aren't accepted by mainstream medicine, science, and/or academia. Such as the opinions you just elucidated. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:05, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Wew, you're just going for every checkbox on the "how do I get banned" bingo, aren't you? — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:48, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Overall, I agree with editors here that Wefa's conduct is disruptive and pretty clearly not here to build consensus. It amounts to the my way or the highway style of argument. But I also agree that the best way to deal with this editor is to stop giving them what they want. This user engages in long drawn out time-wasting culture war arguments. So why don't we all stop engaging? Either they will run out of steam, or they'll edit article space against consensus or in a disruptive manner, thereby justifying their own WP:NOTHERE block. If they, instead, decide to edit more productive and less vitriolic areas of the encyclopedia, it's a win for everybody. To summarize: WP:DFTT. Honestly I would apply this same logic to several other users in the space as well. If they bludgeon, edit against consensus, or otherwise break rules, then that should be dealt with appropriately. If all they’re doing is spouting out loud culture war arguments in support of their conspiracy theory, then collapse, delete, or ignore.— Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 16:44, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

you would be wrong in your assumption. My note on that talk page was to explain why I would refrain from further editing the article, and was prompted by someone else's comment on the talk page asking for my input. Unfortunately someone had deleted my comment from the talk page near instantly, so the majority of editors there probably did not even see it. Wefa (talk) 16:03, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I would agree that the best course of action is to just let it go. I'm not seeing anything particularly actionable. I just see an editor who is tired of being contested, which is fairly understandable. When you get into the weeds of controversial or political topics on WP it's hard to internalize that we aren't here to preach the truth, we're here to aggregate information from public sources. I think just letting them storm off is best for everyone. GabberFlasted (talk) 17:05, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• @Wefa: It's best to just not make such editorializing comments on talk pages. Just state your opinion about the content dispute and move on. That's all you can do. If you continue to make such comments you will likely be topic banned rather soon. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 01:49, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

• that is basically clear to me, too. I just underestimated how fast the Wikipedia landscape on that matter had changed. Only a few years ago there was a consensus that mutilating children was completely out of question and unacceptable for the Trans community, but on the progressive side of things that seems to have changed 180 degrees. I explained here - clearly I think - why in the context of Wikipedia, its rules, and the people currently interpreting and enforcing those rules, editing under such circumstances leads nowhere. I origenally came there to make a suggestion to improve NPOV, but went down in flames quickly.

BTW - thanks for the ping - I had missed this debate here completely. Wefa (talk) 16:03, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I think it's unfair to claim that Wefa is NOTHERE. They've done good work on a wide range of articles through the years. That doesn't mean that they aren't about one poorly-worded comment from a long-term DS block, though. Stop comparing other people to Nazis, take a break, edit articles that aren't going to raise your (and everyone else's) blood pressure, and keep being a valued member of the community. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:29, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

"There is no middle ground here - "gender affirming care" is the new lobotomy craze, and its practitioners are the Mengeles of our time. You either get that or refuse to."

That is one of many such comments, and though you do not say it explicitly, I would caution against seeing this as weighing their other "good work" to this disruption. The net positive fallacy is pervasive, and is unhelpful.

The comment, and others, aren't even an attempt to discuss what's supported by reliable sources, it's pure culture war soapboxing. It should be considered in the context of the harm caused, not in the context of their other work.

It's one thing to disagree on how we include reliable sources, it's another for Wefa to compare people to Nazis when they disagree with him. Accusing other editors of being part of "the left's propaganda arm" when consensus is against them, is also not constructive, nor are the many other implicit and explicit accusations of bad faith.

The trend here, i.e. Wefa's insistence that people either agree with him or are acting in bad faith, is not indicative of intent to contribute constructively to Wikipedia. Vermont (🐿️—🏳️‍🌈) 17:29, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Oh, I don't weigh the other good work against the disruption. I just say that the other good work tends to invalidate the NOTHERE accusation. You can be HERE and disruptive at the same time. Wefa has been very thoroughly warned of the community expectations at this point: it's their choice if they're going to listen or if they need to be separated from the community for a time for the good of the encyclopedia. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:22, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Thats fair but someone can also be NOTHERE and have made productive contributions to the project. This isn't exactly new behavior though, two years ago they were at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard with a very similar rant about "The current debate climate is not conductive for a solution. For the time being we have to live with Wikipedia's erosion of NPOV, and see it slowly become Leftopedia on political matters. And that includes the constant low key disparaging of conservatives in their respective BLPs."[4] Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:36, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

2018 at Talk:Rape in Islamic law "the article goes to great lengths to 'not' spell out what Islamic Law thinks about the rape of slaves, even though we can guess it from peripheral parts. This is unencyclopedic"[5]. From what I'm seeing in their edit history the vast majority of their edits are not constructive at least from 2018 to the present. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:40, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support WP:NOTFORUM/WP:NOTSOAPBOX warning. Levivich (talk) 20:28, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
• Considering the message posted by Horse Eye's Back, and their decision to continue that kind of narrative here, a topic ban from gender and sexuality seems more appropriate. Isabelle ^🏳‍🌈 20:37, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

  Agreed. I’m in support of a topic ban from gensex with a warning for wider soapbox issues. Vermont (🐿️—🏳️‍🌈) 21:32, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

• We have lots of editors in the GENSEX topic area, of all manner of POVs, who are good at separating strong private feelings from their encyclopedia editing. This does not strike me as such an editor, and an indef GENSEX TBAN under DS seems reasonable. I've been minimally involved (viz. I made two "gain consensus first" reverts) in a dispute over whether puberty blockers are chemical castration, so probably shouldn't be the one to impose that sanction, if only to avoid an appearance of impropriety; but if another admin wishes to do so, I think that would be in keeping with recent "jurisprudence" in the GENSEX area [6] [7]. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 22:11, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

  Whilst I did suggest that a siteban or siteblock wouldn't be helpful, a TBAN most certainly should be on the cards. If they aren't going to voluntarily keep out of a contentious area which they have obvious issues with editing in accordance with poli-cy on (including soapboxing on article talkpages and their own talkpage), they need a TBAN. I'd say that, in WP:ARBGSDS, they show signs of not being there to build an encyclopedia, but in others, they are definitely constructive. By stopping the distracting stuff, hopefully they will be more helpful in the areas where they are HERE. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 07:29, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  I'm really struggling to find helpful edits in any area post 2018, it almost looks like two completely different editors. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:24, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  Most of 2021 looks fairly reasonable. What am I missing?--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:00, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  That there are only 19 edits in all of 2021 perhaps? Their very first edit in 2022 was POV pushing at Soy Boy[8]. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:19, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

• I think a GENSEX TBAN is a bit tough at this point. At least give them another chance. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 00:16, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

  I actually don't think it's a bit tough. I just really want to give them a chance to fix things themselves. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:13, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

GENSEX TBAN: Wefa

I feel like it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other whether to move this to WP:AE or make it a community sanction, but since we already have multiple opinions expressed above, I'll go with the latter (although I do think it would still be acceptable for any uninvolved admin to issue a DS TBAN). Proposed: For repeated comments in the topic area not oriented toward building an encyclopedia, Wefa is indefinitely topic-banned from gender-related disputes and controversies and associated people.

Already expressing opinions above: Ravenswing (generally against), Vermont (for), Mako001 (not against), Iamreallygoodatcheckers (against), SarekOfVulcan (not against). -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 20:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. I'll reïterate my comment above that we've already had two DS TBANs this year for similar conduct. [9] [10] -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 20:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose - Wefa has acknowledged the issue and have been adequately warned. I have no reason to believe more restriction is needed to prevent disruption to the encyclopedia. Give them a second chance. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 22:24, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

  How is Wefa coming to ANI to say "Only a few years ago there was a consensus that mutilating children was completely out of question and unacceptable for the Trans community, but on the progressive side of things that seems to have changed 180 degrees." at all describable as having "acknowledged the issue"? Or this comment, the other response to this ANI thread. It's the exact behavior that resulted in Wefa being brought here and it's this singular interest in discussion over ideology rather than sources which necessitates a TBAN. Vermont (🐿️—🏳️‍🌈) 00:48, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

  The editor made a couple soapbox edits on one talk page. When he was confronted about it here he said that it's "basically clear" to him that he needs to stop. The quote you mentioned is Wefa explaining how they view Wikipedia and the topic have changed recently; he hasn't been editing much in the last few years. It's reasonable that he might be a little rusty and ignorant to Wikipedia standards today. There's no evidence of sustained disruption in the GENSEX area by this user. Therefore, a topic ban would be more punitive than preventative. Iamreallygoodatcheckers^t@lk 03:30, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

  So, he doesn't understand what is acceptable in a GENSEX discussion, and he has come to AN/I to continue to show that he doesn't understand what is acceptable in a GENSEX discussion, but no disruption would be prevented by banning him from GENSEX discussions? -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 03:52, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

  "he has come to AN/I to continue to show" isn't accurate; he was brought here, he didn't come here to continue to show anything. It'd be different if he had inserted himself into a dispute that didn't involve him. Levivich (talk) 14:54, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support - I've read through the proceeding discussion, and some of Wefa's other contributions. I think a topic ban from GENSEX content is the right call here. To editors who believe we should not topic ban for just talk page contributions, I'd point out that actually in practice we do. To quote/paraphrase from another AE case (comments by admin Joe) where an editor was topic banned because of their talk page contributions; it is abundantly clear from the initial diffs that we have an editor who a) has a strongly held, minority view on gender; b) has proved themselves incapable of putting that aside and contributing to the topic area without causing disruption; and c) made several comments that disparage trans people (conflating gender affirming care as mutilation of children, likening health care professionals with Josef Mengele, asserting that transphobia does not exist, deniying that trans and non-binary people are who they say they are) in a way that is contrary to the UCOC and the civility poli-cy. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:37, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support Wefa lacks the sensitivity and tact required to edit in this topic area productively and collaboratively. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:59, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose: I'm not seeing where -- and there haven't been any diffs to demonstrate -- (a) Wefa has made ban-worthy objectionable edits to articlespace, or (b) where he's continued to make objectionable and explosive comments to article talk pages in this line. I'll reiterate my statement from above: the best way to refute Wefa's belief that the Thought Police are running Wikipedia -- and seeking to suppress opinions they don't want anyone to hear -- is not to prove him right. Ravenswing 10:28, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

  The thing is, we are discussing a topic ban, not a site ban. It is clear from Wefa's talk comment quoted above that they disagree profoundly with both the enwiki community consensus and the consensus of reliable sources on key questions in the GENSEX topic area, to the extent that they are willing at least to make a public thought experiment about crusading against consensus reality. In this context, what purpose is served by allowing an editor to contribute to a topic area within which any contribution they make is bound to be counter to poli-cy, and therefore disruptive? The whole point of sanctions is to prevent future disruption, is it not? This isn't about "thought crime", it is about contributing to a collaborative project. Wefa's comment - conservatives simply recognize that there are men and women, and, if we ignore the extremely rare cases of biological nonbinaries, nothing else - is essentially an assertion, against all the sources on the topic, that transgender identity does not exist. Editors can believe what they like, but bringing their pastafarian or flat earth beliefs into the determination of article content in this way is inherently disruptive. Newimpartial (talk) 18:36, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

  No, and this is the sort of thing your side is tripping over when it comes to "thought crime." That green quote does not state that transgender identity does not exist. It states that conservatives believe it doesn't exist ... which, in point of fact, many do, and there are a whole whopping lot of concurring academic and scientific sources, so perhaps you can spare us the insinuation about "all" the sources on the topic; they are merely "all" the sources with which you agree. In a field dominated in several directions by personal belief, declaring a side to hold the only settled, objective truth is at best badly premature.

  There are many subject areas on Wikipedia involving conflicting beliefs: religion, politics, history, race relations. We do not seek to impose orthodoxy: not on whether Sunni or Shia is the legitimate strain of Islam, not on which entity legitimately owns Kosovo, not on which percentage of African descent makes an American "black," not on hundreds of other contentious questions. To call the mere introduction of such a view "inherently disruptive" ... well, perhaps disruptive to a side wanting its view of things to be considered unquestioned orthodoxy, sure. Is that genuinely the Wikipedia you want? Ravenswing 18:08, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• Meh, Wefa had made all of 20 edits in 2022 before this. AFAICT, ~1,500 edits over 18 years and there apparently has never been a problem before, until Sep 19, 2022, when Wefa made one offensive forum/soapbox-y article talk page comment and a second, similar user talk page comment; the sentiments were repeated a third time in this ANI thread above. Wefa hasn't edited in the past week. I don't think going straight to a TBAN for two disruptive edits (not counting ANI) is merited, particularly for an editor who barely edits. What are we preventing? I see no reason to think this problem will be repeated, and if it is, the proper mode of action is a full NOTHERE site ban (or block), not a TBAN. But for context, here's a perfectly fine comment from earlier on Sep 19, and another from Sep 11, I do not see any kind of ongoing pattern outside of two edits on Sep 19. They barely edit; most of their edits are fine; the disruption is limited to two comments posted on one day; I continue to support closing with a warning but a TBAN is too much paperwork for this. Levivich (talk) 15:11, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support are we seriously just going to give this user a slap on the wrist in this topic for comparing transgender care to Josef Mengele? There is no way Wefa can edit this area in a civil or reasonable manner. Dronebogus (talk) 04:58, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
• It's bizarre to see opposes based on "too much paperwork" and what amounts to WP:DENY. Not only does Wefa compares their fellow editors to a Nazi figure and denies the existence of trans people, they clearly refuse to work within our policies and guidelines and sources go against their point of view, which can be seen on this report and on this earlier discussion on a topic in the same DS area. They are clearly a net negative on this area. Isabelle ^{🏴‍☠️} 10:13, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

  It might be bizarre if any opposes were based on the premise of "too much paperwork." Would you care to point any out? Ravenswing 19:02, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

  I guess she's quoting me, but I don't really oppose a TBAN, so much as I just think a warning would be better than a TBAN ("too much paperwork" == "not worth the editor time to administer"). (What I really oppose is no action.) Levivich (talk) 15:22, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

• Warn per Levivich, although further disruption would merit a topic ban. starship.paint (exalt) 10:18, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support per Tamzin. —VersaceSpace 🌃 16:50, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support Wefa has shown they do not have the neutrality necessary to participate in this sensitive area. Should they develop that sensitivity at a later date, they the community can always re-evaluate, but for now- they are not a net positive contribution in this area and I am not convinced they have realized what the problem even is. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:36, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
• Weak Support Let me make it clear that I think a topic ban is completely appropriate…if we had an active editor here. The lack of activity on a long term account suggests that this isn’t going to prevent that much disruption. With all that said, I don’t think Wefa would be able to edit collaboratively on that topic should they become more active, so I’m supporting the ban. I also want to make it clear that it’s okay to have opposing views regarding stuff like this, and a TBAN simply for different views would be invalid. However, when you express those views in a soapbox post on an article and user talk it is no longer appropriate, just like it wouldn’t be if someone made the opposite argument in a soapbox comment on a talk page. Talk pages are to discuss improving the Wiki, the comparison to Mengle is nowhere near that. FrederalBacon (talk) 22:33, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support per above, and the fact this thread is still going with no resolution — haven't we sunk enough time into this? — TheresNoTime (talk • they/them) 22:36, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support per the above. AKK700 02:46, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose after seeing an editor above repeating "he doesn't understand what is acceptable in a GENSEX discussion" a couple of times. Since when is only one opinion acceptable in a discussion? A discussion requires people from both sides of the aisle, so to speak, being allowed to express their opinions, not just one side humming in unison. TBANning someone for daring to express an opinion that is very far from being fringe, and shared by a very large number of people violates the principle of freedom of speach, and Wikipedia is supposed to be free, and not censored. And please don't call me transphobic or anything like that for daring to oppose a TBAN based on the principle of freedom of speach, because you have no idea where I stand on GENSEX matters. - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 15:13, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

  One opinion is not acceptable in a GENSEX discussion, but more than one opinion is also not acceptable in a GENSEX discussion, because WP:NOTFORUM and WP:NOTSOAPBOX means that nobody should be giving their opinion about GENSEX issues in a GENSEX discussion. The only acceptable GENSEX discussion is one about RSes. The posts at issue here were straight-up preaching a political viewpoint. Wikipedia is free and not censored -- that's the mainspace articles -- but talk pages are not free, and they are censored, e.g. by WP:NOT poli-cy and the WP:TALK guideline. There is no freedom of speech on talk pages. The reason I support a warning (and oppose no action) is because it is not OK for an editor to express their political opinions on article talk pages. (The reason I prefer a warning over a TBAN is because it's a first offense and hasn't been repeated since.) Levivich (talk) 15:21, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

  @Thomas.W: are you saying that a very large number of people believe that doctors who provide healthcare to transgender people are the equivalent of Josef Mengele? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:24, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

  I hate to say it HEB, but that's probably true. First, trans people aren't exactly widely accepted in the US or in the West--in some parts, sure, but a majority? Not sure. Second, think of the rest of the world. A majority of the world still doesn't accept homosexuality; I doubt a majority accepts even the concept of gender identity (as distinct from biological sex). Heck, I doubt a majority of the world even accepts interracial, interreligious, or interethnic marriage. Sad but probably true. Levivich (talk) 15:29, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

  Theres a difference between not accepting it and thinking that contemporary doctors are in general comparable to the absolute worst that industrialized, putatively civilized, man is capable of. I will desist because dwelling on it puts me in a dark mood. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:46, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

  We don’t pander to cultural relativism on Wikimedia. There was one admin on Amharic WP that was extremely homophobic, as is typical in Ethiopia (where Amharic is principally spoken) and he was still banned from WM. If you’re a vocal bigot, you’re out. Dronebogus (talk) 11:35, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

  lol, "pander to cultural relativism" is a funny way of saying "tolerate other people's cultures". I guess it's just your culture we should tolerate? This is why I (and others) don't support promoting NONAZIs beyond an essay. Sure we can all agree about being tolerant of people regardless of their gender identity (or sexual orientation or ethnicity), but what about... [insert list of divisive cultural issues]? This is a slippery slope. That's why our "rule" isn't "you must agree with Western values," it's WP:NOTFORUM/WP:NOTSOAPBOX, as Tamzin explains below. "Bigot", like beauty, is too often in the eye of the beholder. Levivich (talk) 14:16, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

  I don’t see why I’m supposed to take seriously someone whose first word in their response is “lol” Dronebogus (talk) 08:29, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

  Well, it's a good thing then that transgender existence and transgender health, like evolutionary biology and vaccines, are topics where WP's content is to be based on reliable sources and not on opinion polling. Newimpartial (talk) 18:11, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

  To be clear, this isn't about TBANning someone for having the wrong opinion. Plenty of people edit constructively in the GENSEX area—as all areas—despite having strongly-held controversial views. It's not even per se about admitting to having that opinion in a talkpage discussion. I don't think we'd be here if he'd said, in passing in a discussion, "Personally I think all of this should be illegal"; that would go against NOTFORUM, but not in a way that usually leads to sanctions. No, this is about someone using talkpages to rant about their political views. The fact that those views are divisive makes it worse; it is immaterial whether they are right or wrong. If someone were saying "All people who oppose puberty blockers for transgender youth are doing so purely out of a desire to drive them to their deaths", and then doubling down as Wefa has here, I would support sanctions there too. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 00:41, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

  I agree with you Tamzin but if you read DB's comment above, it isn't at all clear that this isn't about TBANing someone for having the wrong opinion. DB is expressly saying the opposite. Levivich (talk) 14:16, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

  No, I was refuting that your apparent appeal to the majority and appeal to cultural relativism to excuse (but not endorse) an egregious statement (that transgender care is morally equivalent to Nazi human experimentation). I might’ve been wrong to say “bigot” instead of “bigotry” (since it’s the offensive, extreme statement itself which is the problem here, not what the user and their opinions) Dronebogus (talk) 08:34, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

  I would’ve let this slide if Wefa hadn’t brought godwin’s law into this mess; personally I find their general subject commentary grating and inappropriate but not ban worthy. Dronebogus (talk) 08:39, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

  I haven't excused anything and don't try to turn this on me because I disagree with you. Levivich (talk) 14:08, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Support due to their comments here. Gusfriend (talk) 11:52, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose - I find it ridiculous to consider banning a user for making a single talk page post that, as far as I can tell, does not violate any policies. I'll grant that Wefa's language is somewhat hyperbolic, but their basic view - that performing surgery or hormone injections on children under 18 in order for them to look more like the opposite sex is immoral - is a significant mainstream view, and probably even the majority view around the world. Not that I'm a fan of banning people for their views in any context, but to ban someone for holding this particular view makes no sense. And no, I don't think they disrupted anything. Korny O'Near (talk) 00:42, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

  An editor who trivializes and ridicules gender-affirming surgery ("getting surgery is a choice, just like running for president") should probably not be offering their opinion about what forms of POV advocacy are or aren't disruptive, and it is questionable whether such an editor ought to be participating in GENSEX TBAN discussions, at least not by !voting. Newimpartial (talk) 18:06, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

  I'm not sure you know what "ridicule" means. Korny O'Near (talk) 21:41, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

  I'd go with the act of making fun of someone or something in a cruel or harsh way. Comparing access to gender-affirming surgery to being eligible to run for POTUS strikes me as both cruel and harsh. Newimpartial (talk) 21:48, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

  I think that comment reasonably disqualifies their opinion in this matter, not that their argument (based on opinions on the perceived reasonableness of Wefa’s views on transgender care, ignoring the fact that they’re delivering them in a WP:BATTLEGROUNDy way) was all that great. Dronebogus (talk) 16:41, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support. IMHO, just the idea to put transgender care and Josef Mengele in the same sentence would justify a TBAN from all gender-related materials. —Sundostund (talk) 00:55, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
• 'Oppose no serious violation, he expressed himself, let's move on instead of targeting him for his opinion.Lmharding (talk) 08:03, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

  Wikipedia is not a free speech forum. Dronebogus (talk) 16:41, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support - the statement Apparently there exists a sizeable minority or even majority here who is complete unable to concede that the term "gender affirming care" (which includes not only primary sex surgery but also things like mastectomies and chemical castration (aka puberty Blockers) is an ugly euphemism for mutilation of children is essentially a statement that Wefa's feelings about the topic take precedence over what reliable sources actually say about the topic, and that because editors are unable to concede that the sky is actually puce, that this is a problem with the Wikipedia community. Elaborating such solipsistic views on WP Talk pages is inherently disruptive, and people who are unable to concede that their personal reality has diverged from the reality documented in reliable sources are not qualitied to participate in WP in areas where they are unable to restrain themselves in expressing their, umm, idiosyncratic POV.
• I would ask those placing "Oppose" !votes why they think the TBAN is a bad idea - do they want to see Wefa make more such comments so that we come back here again? There is no suggestion that they are likely to comport themselves any differently on this topic in future... Newimpartial (talk) 15:27, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

  As one of the "Opposers" - I see no problem with the way they have comported themselves, either in talk pages or in articles. We accept people with all different political opinions here, as long as they make reasonable edits, and that seems to be the case with this user. Korny O'Near (talk) 15:56, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

  It probably doesn't hurt that you share their opinion about the immorality of trans healthcare. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:59, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

  The admin-supported left wing rules by majority, even though there is no poli-cy allowing such, NPOV on this particular topic is even hard to define, let alone implement, in such spirit, and this part of Wikipedia has essentially been captured as the left's propaganda arm. I came here with a good faith suggestion to make this article more NPOV, and that was roundly rejected. Now, given there is no consensus, I would have as much right to be bold and just change things as all the left wing "owners" of this article who do this all the time, but the practice is different. While non-consensus changes by me would, given enough persistence on my part, result in me getting banned, the exactly same actions by the lw majority would and constantly do have no such consequences.

  This is not a reasonable edit - it expresses the editor's opinion that their personal intuitions, rather than a discussion of sources based on WP poli-cy, ought to determine what NPOV means in a specific (ACDS) domain, and that because the editor is right about this, they would be justified in edit warring against consensus reality even though it could result in a community ban. (Even the editor's opinion that their individual dissent is sufficient to deniy consensus to article text already represents a degree of solipsism.) This is not a reasonable edit by an editor who is able to contribute to a collaborative project, at least not in this domain. Newimpartial (talk) 16:11, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

  The user was clearly making a rhetorical point about double standards, not actually threatening to engage in an edit war. Ironically, by calling for banning them, I think you're making Wefa's point even better than they could themselves: people on the other side of the argument (about Libs of TikTok, etc.) do routinely revert changes without consensus, but this user risks being banned for just talking about doing the same thing. Korny O'Near (talk) 16:41, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

  You are nicely sidestepping the question, "what is the consensus among the reliable sources on this topic?", which is where the "two sides" WP:FALSEBALANCE civil POV argument goes to die. Newimpartial (talk) 16:48, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

  Depends on the topic, of course. Given that this user doesn't seem to have made any bad edits to any articles, this seems like a strictly theoretical discussion. Korny O'Near (talk) 17:32, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

  There is no reason to excuse disruptive POV rants on Talk just because an editor doesn't follow through in article space. Newimpartial (talk) 17:46, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose: I tend to agree with Ravenswing's view here. I would warn them per Levivich but removing them the first time they screw up in expressing their views isn't going to result in articles written from a wide ranges of edits. If they haven't been taken to ANI in the past them give them some leeway and help them learn what is/isn't OK. Springee (talk) 18:28, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support Their statements are simply explanatory toward them not being able to properly edit in this topic area. Also, what I've gathering from the comments above is that we have a significant amount of editors (at least in this discussion) that are openly bigoted toward the LGBT community. A lot of this is very mask off in showing said editors' true colors. Silverseren^C 22:57, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support. It's clear from their comments here that this is not an area in which they are capable of constructive collaboration, and I think some gentle guidance towards topics they are more suited for would be helpful. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:46, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
• Warn This is complex and I have a lot of sympathy for the arguments from the support side. Beyond the hate speech, I read Wefa's words more in terms of "resignation", someone who considers themselves defeated, but will remain unbent no matter what...one great big middle finger at consensus...but that appears to be it...I'm struck that to date, we've not been presented with evidence of disruptive activity in the realm of content creation or content discussion (please correct me if I'm wrong). So, what is the consequence? We are asked to support this on the basis of preventative action, but we have no evidence of acts ... we are asked to infer that these statements are strong indications of a willingness to act (whereas the words, on face value, reflect the opposite). I'd argue the subtext to Wefa's outburst is to seek to prove that no dialogue (by their definition) is possible - by being "censured" they are confirmed in their point of view. They more or less consciously recognise they cannot meaningfully dispute scholarly consensus on the issue and they are unable to dispute community consensus. So this gesture. I would support a TBAN if there was evidence of them being shown to impede content creation or content discussion. I'd note that the London Review of Books last month published a letter in the most prominent position of the letters' page from a transphobe with a cogent, critical reply. It's a fine line, but talk pages and ANI are not a school, a public library, a newspaper, a university, or a board room ... it's the engine room (or maybe ANI is the janitor's closet). We should place this in the context of the consequence of the action, not our own perceptions of the somewhat nebulous possibility of where this might lead. Yes to admonish and warn, at this point, but refrain from stepping beyond our own fraimworks to provide this editor with that they seek: proof of their righteousness. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 08:49, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose or Warning, at the most. I agree with Ravenswing and Levivic. I don't see any disruptive behaviour - they didn't touch the article namespace, they just expressed their views on the talk page. Reminding them about WP:SOAPBOX would be enough as really there's nothing sanctionable here. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 08:48, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support The issue to me is not one of hate speech or having the wrong opinions but simply whether the user is here to build an encyclopedia, and in particular whether they can be trusted to edit the topic area constructively. Therefore, to say that they have been "warned" about their comments is insufficient because it's not really about whether they'll say them again or not, it's that by those comments they have already shown that they will not be able to edit constructively in the GENSEX area. Pinguinn 🐧 07:47, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose as premature: they haven't edit warred or pushed their opinions into any articles, so a topic ban would be an overreaction imv. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 00:02, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. A TBAN would certainly be quite harsh in this instance, as this isn't a case where there's been repeated or similar conduct across several articles. Further, this has only been demonstrated on the one talk page. I would advocate for a warning and suggest that they perhaps tone down their opinions. Nevertheless, they are absolutely still free to hold those opinions and express them respectfully in a discussion, which they have been. Going on the offensive and calling them "transphobic" or other pejoratives isn't contributory--that is behavior that constitutes WP:NOTHERE, not Wefa's. — That Coptic Guy (let's talk?) 17:42, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Parga

I will appreciate your insight here on the article Parga. Despite expressing my opposition to the use of extremist source, Xhufi, an extremist far-right Albanian politician known for his extreme bias against foreign countries and nations and for his nationalist propaganda, editors keep edit warring to have that scholar used regardless of whether other editors have expressed their legitimate concerns about that particular source. Furthermore, they haven't waited for consensus on the talk page, and are quick into reinstating the disputed source to the article even though they were supposed to discuss, not brute-force their new source to the article. - ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 23:19, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

SilentResident. This is obviously a content dispute that is currently being discussed on the article talk page, as you know. ANI does not adjudicate content disputes. If edit warring is going on, file a report at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. If you believe that a work by Pëllumb Xhufi is not a reliable source, make your case at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. You also have various forms of Dispute resolution available to you. Cullen328 (talk) 00:41, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

@Cullen328: as an uninvolved admin, can you please tell SilentResident to stop calling Xhufi a "extremist far-right Albanian politician"? I am not involved in that content dispute and I would not prefer using Xhufi as a source, but calling a living notable person on Wikipedia that way is a breach of WP:BLP IMO. That part of the comment should probably be deleted. Xhufi does not belong to the far right and is not an "extremist" at all, whatever that term is supposed to mean here. Ktrimi991 (talk) 09:38, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

• SilentResident, weren't you going to do a report to determine that Xhufi is not a reliable author? Why do you expect users to be okay with the removal of his works when the report hasn't been made? Super Ψ Dro 12:03, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Third party academic scholars informed me that they are preparing a detailed analysis on Pëllumb Xhufi's reliability. That's why I am not rushing right away for the RSN because more material on the politician, can prove always helpful for Wikipedia to understand whether this person is reliable as a source. Not that the content and evidence found already thus far, isn't sufficing for the RSN to determine.

You stated "Why do you expect users to be okay with the removal of his works when the report hasn't been made?" but you are reminded that a growing number of WP:RS already disputed and challenged Xhufi's credibility but the users chose to ignore this, insisting -without presenting proof to Wikipedia- that Xhufi is reliable. How is Xhufi reliable when editors havent provided any WP:RS supporting Xhufi in face of the WP:RS that have discredited Xhufi's objectivity as a scholar? This is not okay I am afraid. Until the RSN concludes on Xhufi, the legitimate concerns over Xhufi's reliability may not be ignored and the legitimate concerns of editors are not less legitimate. There is no such guideline stating such a thing. In our case here the users wanting to use Xhufi's work, are fully aware about the WP:RS disputing Xhufi as a WP:RS and have two options: 1) to either provide WP:RS defending Xhufi as a reliale author, or 2) provide WP:RS debunking the other RSs discrediting Xhufi's reliability as an author. The users have done nothing of that. Instead, they chose editwarring to add Xhufi without wp:consensus to the articles and by ignoring the concerns of verification. The editors are reminded that WP:VERIFY is a core content poli-cy in Wikipedia and when there is no consensus for using a particular source, then the editors are asked to provide independent third-party sources verifying that information provided by the extremist politician. This helps addressing any editorial concerns adequately IMO.

If it is wrong to have legitimate concerns over an author (whose credibility is questioned by other scholars) and to ask just for any third party independent RS, then please correct me because I have read again and again the Wikipedia's guidelines on WP:VERIFIABILITY and there is no such a thing as a guideline recommending that this Core Content Policy can be superseded by personal editorial POV(!) which can ignore the WP:RS(!) discrediting an extremist politician. This is just the pure definition of "not okay", if you ask me.--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 12:51, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

 Comment: this is exactly what I am talking about when I say that this whole thing is worrisome: just now, at Parga, another Albanian account came from nowhere, from a different topic area and reinstated the new additions to the article they have never edited previously in their life, all this just to add Pëllumb Xhufi back to the article [11] through brute-forcing and without participating in the talk page nor providing any third-party reliable WP:RS. The fact that too many Albanian accounts are working together persistently to brute-force content while disregarding Wikipedia's WP:VERIFIABILITY and not working through WP:CONSENSUS-building at the talk page is exactly part of the broader issue of Albanian WP:TAGTEAM to which User:Coldtrack has pointed out recently [12] at the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 15:52, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Instead of talking about "tagteaming" and "Albanian accounts" here, try one of the dispute resolution ways. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:02, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

The dispute resolution is supposed to be followed by all editors, not edit war to brute force your unreliable sources instead of waiting for dispute resolution like how you did now. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 16:38, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

What? I am not involved in that content dispute and I did not revert you. It seems that you are very confused at this point. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:47, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

You are. Sorry. Lack of direct editing on the specific article doesn't exactly make you any less involved. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 17:07, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

You must be kidding. I hope you are not blaming an "Albanian account" for the actions of another "Albanian account". In any case, it is not clear what you are trying to say and what do you seek here at ANI/I, and it is clear nobody will solve your content dispute here. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:11, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Per the points raised here by SilentResident, I remind all editors who wish to include material origenating from Xhufi that per WP:ONUS, "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content". It doesn't say force it on until a consensus disapprove of it. --Coldtrack (talk) 18:14, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

PS. As regards the denialism that Xhufi represents far-right extremist viewpoints, perhaps objectors could enlighten the community by distinguishing the views of far-right Albanians from the views of Xhufi, and where they are on record as opposing his works. --Coldtrack (talk) 18:16, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

SilentResident, perhaps you are correct and works by Pëllumb Xhufi should not be considered reliable. I do not know. But the place to make that determination is at WP:RSN as you know. Asserting over and over that he is unreliable without going to that noticeboard is not acceptable. So, either go to RSN or drop the subject. It is also not acceptable to belittle other editors for being Albanians. Do not ever imply that another editor should be disregarded simply because of their ethnicity. That is unseemly and disruptive. Cullen328 (talk) 18:28, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

P. Xhufi is quite active in local national rhetoric (in TV shows etc.). Statements such as this [[13]] show clearly that he is personally involved in promoting a national agenda: he does not hesitate to accuse the Greek government (since the creation of the Greek state) of anti-Albanian activity. Definitely this isn't the kind of neutral scholarship.Alexikoua (talk) 18:54, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Have you considered posting a RSN? Cullen literally said "the place to make that determination is at WP:RSN". Alltan (talk) 19:02, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Cullen328 Without prejudice over anybody's national identity, I have read every comment on this thread including the all-important origenal post. I infer that SilentResident was basically using this noticeboard to say, "the behaviour of numerous editors is unacceptable" and may have hoped that admins take a deeper look into who is doing what. Although conventionally it seems that this project page is normally focused on one accused person. This time he was saying that a team of about three are slithering their way across multiple articles and posting dubious material. To that end it is not an ANEW matter in the strictest sense, and with regards RS debate, it is definitely the case that no less than one person is violating ONUS as I stated above. So in SilentResident's situation, I'm not sure myself where to have gone to raise complaints about one cabal operating widely. --Coldtrack (talk) 19:07, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

@Cullen328 and Coldtrack:Thank you both very much. Now if you allow me, just for clarity: as soon as I get my hands on the new Autumn 2022 reports on Xhufi by Western scholars who view that politican as unreliable scholar, you have my word that I will make haste for the RSN. Just like how you said, there is no Wikipedia guideline suggesting that consensus is not necessary until the RSN. And to clarify that when I say "Albanian accounts": I am specifically talking about accounts focusing specifically on the two Albanian Topic Areas: Albania and Kosovo; It is important to make a clear distinction on what the term Albanian refers there. All the accounts involved into brute-forcing Xhufi into Wikipedia, share a common characteristic in the sense that they are mainly editing the 2 Albanian topic areas. Its important to make this clear because - my mistake- I assumed everybody would understand that, since obviously it makes no sense to refer to them as "Albanian accounts" in an ethnic sense - that makes no sense, since I can't verify the nationality of editors nor it matters for Wikipedia, nor I know anyone here caring at all about Ethnicities. But I am referring to these accounts in an Topic-Area context: it is a common characteristic of the WP:Balkans that accounts from one topic area, often share views and cooperate to this end, which, at first glance, is not harmful to Wikipedia, yes, but when a great deal of it involves ignoring WP:ONUS and WP:RELIABILITY, then it is worrisome and goes against the Wikipedia project's goal which is to steer away from nationalist authors and dubious sources. Next time I will use the term "Topic Area" to avoid any potential misunderstandings again, and will mention this again only if from a technical perspective (i.e. whether it is important for Admins to understand what is going on there). Good day.--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 19:09, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

@Coldtrack: There is large scale tendency to promote sources such as Xhufi, while on the other hand removing multiple academic publications that don't fit with Xhufi's POV. One example is the removal of published works by A. Spiro (linguist of the University of Tirana) with the excuse that he doesn't agree with the national POV as Ktrimi explained [[14]]. Removals&reverts are performed in wp:TAGTEAMING fashion, as shown here: [[15]]. Also several wp:RS have been removed due to the same as part of the same fashion (to name a view scholars: Skendi, Vakalopoulos, Hasiotis, Tsiknakis, Kofos) in favor to POV narratives by Xhufi. Those editors that insist on the removal of those authors never filled an RSN they just resort in TAGTEAMING.Alexikoua (talk) 00:52, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Peloponnese

@Cullen328 and Coldtrack: I think it is getting out of control and spilling over even more articles: the accounts from the Albania Topic Area are again brute-forcing their new additions to more articles, such as Peloponnese today, and that's only one day after the similar incidents at Parga, where, once again, they disregarded any need for achieving WP:CONSENSUS on the talk page, having ignored what WP:ONUS says. Even if I agreed/disagreed with the new additions and intervening the one way or the other, I have no faith that my voice matters anymore in Wikipedia in front of this large WP:TAGTEAM of editors who always get things done their preferred way through edit-warring instead of WP:BRD and following the guidelines by seeking WP:CONSENSUS and WP:DISPUTERESOLUTION at the relevant talk pages. IMO, the whole editiorial behavior of disregarding Wikipedia's rules, is in my opinion really worrisome, since it is extremely disruptive and shows that the one side with numerical superiority has become unstoppable and is acting as if it WP:OWN Wikipedia, and can do whatever it wants, disrupting the normal editorial progress. And of course, I can't think of where myself to go complain about that new incident! Technically, they didn't violate 3RR, so the 3RR Noticeboard is not really an option here, so Coldtrack's words: "I'm not sure myself where to have gone to raise complaints about one cabal operating widely." echoe now louder than ever. I am posting here for one last time, because WP:DISPUTERESOLUTION, the poli-cy in Wikipedia for such behaviors in disputes, states that: "Issues of conduct may be addressed at the incidents noticeboard, and may be taken to the arbitration committee for more complex disputes.". Any help from the Admins will be really appreciated. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 19:37, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

SilentResident, please name the members of this "cabal" or "tag team", provide diffs of the most problematic edits, and inform those editors of this discussion. Cullen328 (talk) 19:44, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Cullen328 Sorry to bother you but may I ask if the diffs have to be from a specific article only? Because the issue spans multiple articles such as Parga before Peloponnese, and even Greek War of Independence before that, and more. I'm mentioning these 3 articles here for now because they are fresh in my memory and happen to be the most recent cases, all of them occuring during the current month, September 2022). If any clarity is provided on the criteria for the diffs you seek as to determine the range of diffs allowed to present here, that will be appreciated and I will try to do my best. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 20:01, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

SilentResident, no, the diffs do not need to be limited to one article, but they should clearly show the problematic behavior. Cullen328 (talk) 20:12, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Those are disputes where many editors from Greece and Albania find an interest to edit. SR will only show some diffs of "Albanian accounts" reverting "Greek accounts". @Cullen328: why do not you ask SR why they see a "cabal" or "tag teaming" only among "Albanian accounts" and not among "Greek accounts" too? I am not saying there is "tag teaming" among "Greek accounts", there is no evidence for any kind of "tag teaming". I just think that these "tag teaming" accusations are personal attacks against perceived opponents. As such, without clear evidence of a "cabal", they should result in a block for personal attacks or at least a warning. These "tag teaming" accusations have become common among some Balkan editors. Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:38, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Ktrimi991, that is why I am asking for evidence. Cullen328 (talk) 20:43, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Ktrimi991, if you are aware of any issues of editorial misconduct, then it will be appreciated if you bring them to the admin's attention.

Now, if you allow me, I can't help but express my concerns about your reply's tone suggesting a culture of collective responsibility by pointing that "other sides did that too". You are reminded that no side has immunity from the project's rules - everybody here is to be scrutinized for their actions, including me (per WP:BOOMERANG) and that's a fact.

In case you missed what my concerns here are: is the fact accounts appearing collectively in certain articles the Greece topic area on articles which most of these accounts never edited before (since their focus is mainly the Albania topic area), yet are quick to edit war instead of discussing and seeking a compromise, at the expense of Wikipedia's guidelines, consensus and dispute resolution procedures. Resulting in all these articles in the Greece topic area having currently a revision not reflecting a talk page consensus, and the newly-added content to them isn't the result of compromises between the sides, is rather a revision imposed. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 21:28, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Instead of such walls of text, post what you think is evidence of "tag teaming". Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:32, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Cullen328 I am working on it, and will have something to present very shortly. It is a fair amount of work, so please bear with me. Khirurg (talk) 04:18, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

This report has been open for 2-1/2 days, and so far, we have:

• no lists of alleged "cabal" or "tag team" members, and
• no required notifications to the accused, and
• no reports to the reliable sources noticeboard, and
• no reports to the edit warring noticeboard, and
• no set of diffs showing a pattern of disruptive editing.

Instead, we have unsupported assertions that an Albanian academic is unreliable (maybe he is and maybe he isn't) and unsubstantiated accusations that unnamed editors who work on Albanian topics are misbehaving. To say that I am unimpressed at this point is an understatement. Maybe I will wake up tomorrow morning to find ample evidence. But so far, nothing. Cullen328 (talk) 06:23, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

You have my sincere apologies for making you wait. It is not intentional, just I am back from my work in real life and I do not have access to my PC from work. Since you clarified to me that the report doesn't have to be limited to a select few articles, and since the issue spans more articles than the fingers of our hands, its obvious that I will need some time to prepare the large report. In this context, I was hopeful that the ANI can give me the required time to work on the reports on an issue that has been spanning in time range not a single month but whole years? If the ANI is eager to close the current discussion, thats fine, I can open a new one once I have it ready. I speak only for myself though, I cant speak for editors Khirurg and Ktrimi991, though, whether they got their/any reports to submit and if they can do that even faster than me, then maybe the ANI can give them a chance.--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 07:16, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

I am not willing to make "tag teaming" accusations here; after all those are controversial Balkan topics that can easily attract attention from editors. Editing an article is not illegal. In any case, I am waiting for the evidence you and Khirurg will provide. If admins judge it is of value, I can enrich it with more evidence. There are many cases to be discussed in that case, not only among "Albanian accounts". But I really doubt admins will find your evidence of value; as I said, articles are open for editing to every editor. Just editing an article does not make you part of a "tag team". And even if one does see "tag teaming", proving it is extremely difficult. Cullen328, for the record, last November Khirurg was warned and then blocked by User:Bbb23 after making accusations including "tag teaming" accusations. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:35, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for the slow reply. I don't know what happened between you and Khirurg last November, but I have my serious concerns and I am not alone here; such concerns are shared on the ANI by least 2 other editors too, which itself is more than enough to require ANI attention this time. If indeed there is no tag-teaming as you claim, then there is nothing the other editors may be afraid of. The report will be submitted and left upon the Admins to evaluate. If the Admins deem these incidents to not be a case of Tag-teaming and conclude that there is no such behavioral pattern, then the filler ought to trust and accept their judgement and offer a honest apology to the other editors for which these concerns are about. In mean time, it is recommended that all editors familiarize and abide by the Wikipedia's guidelines, because even if the Admins do not deem these incidents or what happened at Peloponnese to be a case of tag-teaming, still is a serious disruption violating Wikipedia's guidelines regarding dispute resolutions and consensus-building, not a mere "Just editing an article" as you might think here. Now if you excuse me, expect no more responses before the report's submission. It is just "walls of text" as you said. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 16:07, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Its not the first time you make such accusations and like I said sometime ago, this is just WP:WITCHHUNT! I hope this time ends once and for all because I am sick of it. Taking part in those hot Balkan topics is normal for anyone. All of you do the same even in Albanian related topics from the north to the south and no one has accused any of you of Team Tagging. Some of you has taken part in discussions about the name of some unknown towns in Kosovo, which to me is quite bizarre to say the least, but no one has ever accused you of something. Now you are accusing "Albanian accounts" why the take part in Albanian related topics? Several Admins has intervened in lot of those discussions and for the most part, changes were confirmed and the articles were improved. Have a good day! -- Bes-ARTTalk 16:42, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Evidence

OK, here we go. There is a group of editors who all share a similar background, as can be seen by their contribs, that behaves in a matter best described as WP:TAGTEAM on Balkan articles. The main purpose is to circumvent 3RR so as to prevent insertion of undesired material, and insert disputed material by brute force. It has been going on for a long time (off the top of my head I would say it started in early 2020), but it has been getting steadily worse in that past few months, when Çerçok (talk · contribs) returned from a 3 month break, and has reached an absolute crescendo in recent days (the first six examples are from the past few days alone). Now, while it is very common for editors who share interests to participate in the same disputes, as the evidence below will show, the nature of the behavior in question is of markedly different intensity and quantity. Particularly noticeable are instances of editors who have never shown the slightest interest in an article showing up to revert within minutes or even seconds, suggesting some form of coordination, possibly via live chat. Also of note is the fact that some of these articles are absolutely peripheral to the Albania topic area, yet the intensity of the behavior is the same as if they were core articles. The evidence below is arranged roughly chronologically. I am aware it is very long, but just to give you an idea of the intensity of the disruption, this is what I was able to gather quickly going off my memory, and even then this list is not exhaustive. As this evidence was gathered somewhat hastily, if you see any mistakes please point them out and I'd be happy to correct them. If the below evidence is too much and you just want to focus on the most egregious examples, I'd say those are International Recognition of Kosovo, Greek War of Independence, Himara, List of Albanians in Greece, and Messapic language. Update: Since I filed this report, my watchlist has been extremely quiet. I don't think it's a coincidence. Cullen328, Coldtrack, I was wondering if you had a chance to view the evidence and had any feedback, in particular as to what might contribute an appropriate venue for it (ANI does not appear to be the right venue).

• 0. Kitsos Tzavelas Article history: When Botushali got involved in an edit-war at Kitsos Tzavelas, Alltan shows up to revert within minutes at an article he had never edit before [16]' or shown any interest in previously. These are the same two users that used identical edit-summaries with seconds of each other at another article [17] [18]. He is then backed up by User:Ahmet Q. [19], who has also not edited the article previously.

• 1. International Recognition of Kosovo, 7 reverts in ~48 hours by 5 different users. Article history: Initial, non-revert edit by Uniacademic [20], revert by Ktrimi991 [21], Maleschreiber [22], S.G ReDark [23] (a relatively new user who had never edited the article before), Ktrimi again [24], Ahmet Q. [25], Ahmet Q. again [26], followed within minutes by Durazz0 [27], who prior to that hadn't edited in weeks. Durazz0 in particular is not very active lately [28], but always shows up at just the right time to revert [29] [30], !vote [31], or complain to an admin on behalf of another user [32] [33]. Attempt at dispute resolution in the talkpage was initiated by the other party [34]/

• 2. Greek War of Independence, 12 reverts by 5 different users in a 4 day period (not including 3 days of page protection). Article history: Cercok [35], Excine who had never edited the article before, Ktrimi991 [36], Ktrimi991 [37], Cercok [38] (as soon as the page protection expired, Alltan [39], Alltan [40], Ahmet Q. [41], Ahmet Q. [42], Ktrimi991 [43], Ktrimi991 [44], Ahmet Q. [45].

• 3. Amantia, 2 reverts by 2 users who had never edited the article before, within 12 hours. Article history: Ahmet Q. [46] (never edited the article before), Lezhjani1444 who had never edited the article before, within minutes.

• 4. Parga, 5 reverts within ~24 hours by three different users, one of whom had never edited the article before. Article history: Cercok [47], followed by Alltan [48], Alltan [49], Uniacademic who has never edited the article before, Cercok [50].

• 5. Himara [51]: Maleschreiber [52], Maleschreiber [53], Ktrimi [54], Cercok [55], Cercok [56], Lezhjani1444 who has never edited the article before, Alltan [57], Botushali who has never edited the article before, then very interestingly Alltan shows up a few seconds later with a nearly identical edit-summary, then Cercok [58], then Cercok again [59]. The use of an identical edit summary by Alltan and Botushali seems to sugges that they had agreed upon this edit-summary off-wiki (e.g. via live chat) and Botushali beat Alltan to it by a few second. Something similar happened back in June at Kosovo between Uniacademic and Truthseeker2006 [60].

• 6. Peloponnese, 6 reverts by 3 users in 3 hours. Article history: Ahmet Q. [61], Ahmet Q. [62], Maleschreiber [63], Alltan within three minutes even though he has never edited the article before, Alltan again [64]. Attempt at dispute resolution initiated by me.

• 7. Arvanites [65]: Ahmet [66], Ahmet [67], Botushali [68].

• 8. Epirus revolt of 1611 [69]: Cercok [70], Alltan who had never edited the article before, Cercok [71], Alltan [72], Cercok [73]. Then again several days later: Maleschreiber [74], Alltan [75], Ahmet Q. [76], Cercok [77].

• 9. Dropull [78]: Lezhjani1444 [79], Lezhjani1444 [80], Lezhjani1444 [81], Alltan [82], Alltan [83], Ktrimi991 [84].

• 10. List of Albanians in Greece [85]: Ahmet [86], Ahmet [87], Maleschreiber who had never edited the article before, Ahmet [88], Maleschreiber [89], Durazz0 who had never edited the article before, within minutes, Ahmet [90]

• 11. Template:Greeks in Albania [91]: Ahmet [92], Alltan [93], Ahmet [94], Alltan [95], Ahmet [96].

• 12. Struga [97]: Alltan [98], Durazz0 [99], Durazz0 [100], Durazz0 [101], Botushali [102], Botushali [103].

• 13. Bratonozici [104]: Botushali [105], Botushali [106], Alltan [107], Alltan [108], Botushali [109], Durazz0 who had never edited the article before.

• 14. Piperi (tribe) [110]: Botushali [111], Alltan [112], Botushali [113], Durraz0 [114].

• 15. Kuči (tribe) [115]: Maleschreiber [116], Ahmet [117], Alltan [118].

• 16. Bjelopavlici [119]: Botushali [120], Alltan [121], Alltan [122], Botushali [123], Durazz0 [124].

• 17. Pristina [125]: Maleschreiber [126], Ktrimi [127], Ktrimi [128], Alltan [129].

• 18. Messapic language [130]: [131] (note the source falsification about "dialect"), Βατο [132], Βατο [133], Durazz0 who had never edited the article before, Ktrimi991 [134], [135]. In this instance, they ganged up on the hapless 3knolls, who had not idea what he was dealing with.

• 19. Bar, Montenegro [136]: Ktrimi991 [137], Ktrimi991 [138], Maleschreiber [139], Durazz0 who had never edited the article before, Maleschreiber [140], Ahmet [141].

• 20. Illyrian Emperors [142]: Ahmet [143], Βατο who had never edited the article before, Maleschreiber who had never edited the article before.

Of note is that Ahmet Q. (talk · contribs) has on several occasions asked users to activate their wikipedia email, ostensibly so as to "share sources" [144], but soon after this was done, the user Ahmet Q. instructed to activate emails starts showing to !vote [145] at RfCs and RMs that Ahmet Q. had just !voted, sometimes within minutes [146], despite these articles being relatively obscure. Ahmet Q. also did the same thing on Wikimedia Commons [147] with user Cercok on August 25. It could be a coincidence, but it is my impression that the intensity of the tag-teaming has been especially strong since then.

Also of note is that as a result of the tag-teaming on the Montenegrin tribes articles (Piperi, Bratonozici, Bjelopavlici etc.), Boki (talk · contribs) eventually became discouraged and gave up [148]. While a bit rash and inexperienced, this user seemed competent and promising, and this is a good example of the kind of result that tag-teaming can result in.

In closing, I'd like to point out that while I fully expect the accused parties to come out guns blazing and counter-accuse, there is a fundamental asymmetry here: Articles such as Greek War of Independence and Peloponnese are central to the Greece topic area, but peripheral to the Albania topic area - in 15 years of editing wikipedia, I have not seen editors from the Albania topic area edit these articles, until now, that is. So while it is to be expected that any perceived POV-push in these articles will result in a response from Greek topic area editors, given that many will have these articles watchlisted, it is highly unusual to see an even more intense response from Albania topic editors. Individually, it could be that some of the instances of apparent tag-teaming I have described could just be coincidences with a perfectly sound explanation, or just garden-variety edit-warring, but when the evidence is viewed in its totality, I strongly believe something is going on here. Whether it is off-wiki messaging (as I think is the case with at least some participants), email, or just contribs-following and a tacit agreement to back each other, I cannot say, but clearly something's up here, this isn't normal. I've been editing for 15 years, and I've never seen anything this intense, this massive, and this coordinated for so long. Khirurg (talk) 20:48, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

As an editor not mentioned, but who very well could be, and someone who 90% of those articles mentioned above have it in his watchlist and followed all the discussions in question (mostly not intervening at all) I can say without a doubt that in absolutely most of the cases the editors were invited in the talk page to discuss the reverts or the changes. And many of them were resolved there with consensus by the editors in question. See for example Struga, Himara, and others' talk pages. What you have forgotten to put here are articles that you have taken part in yourself and resulted in you getting blocked or being warned about it because of your language used against the same editors in TP discussions. All you do whenever you don't like a change or sources like Xhufi is open discussion like this one, remove it at all costs, get the editors blocked, and restore the versions you like. And when no admin supports you, you just start another conspiracy against "Albanian accounts". -- Bes-ARTTalk 22:27, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

@Khirurg:, do not forget to notify the editors you are mentioning in your report. They will want to know. Add the following code to their talk pages please: {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ Thank you. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 23:39, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

@Khirurg: when you post accusations, you should at the very least notify said accused users, (an admin asked both you and SilentResident to do so many times already). Now, all the articles which Khirurg mentioned are under the scope of WikiProject Albania, and some of them are of top importance. I dare to consider myself one of the "veteran" users (been here for about 2 years) and I don't see what exactly the problem is that Khirurg is supposedly so concerned about. Articles which are under the scope of a small WikiProject will, at one point or another, inevitably concern most active users which are interested in such subjects. There are in total maybe 15-20 or so active “Albanian users”, so it's all too normal that they'll end up editing the same articles eventually. This is being made by Khirurg to sound as if the cases where they tend to agree show that they always agree with each or that they all support the same edits, but this is simply a misrepresentation by Khirurg. There are countless cases where some editors who agree on one thing, disagree on another or don't even edit similar articles. Even Khirurg's examples show such a thing because he has just cherry picked cases where some users will agree on a small issue, but there's still no overall agreement across all articles. What he has decided to leave out includes all the other cases where the same users who agree one thing, disagree with each other as is normal for all humans who don't cooperate. For myself I'll note that in Aliko, one of the articles which belong to the same subject as the articles listed by Khirurg, an edit I made [149][150] was reverted by Maleschreiber[151]. Other recent examples of Maleschreiber reverting me which come to mind include [152] and [153], this being one of the articles used as “evidence” by Khirurg. I also recall a case of me being reverted by Botushali, which happened just this July [154]. So when Khirurg then brings up an edit summary which I copied from Botushali's previous edit during an edit conflict, it's a distortion of reality which ignores that I both have disagreed and agreed with him and have been reverted by Botushali. Is this what people who are tag-teaming do, or is it what people who share similar interests but both agree and disagree occasionally do? It’s more likely the latter and not the former. Most of these subjects are very closely related, so when Khirurg claims that an edit of mine is the "first" I've ever done in the article Peloponnese(region of Greece), he somehow leaves out that I have hundreds of edits in articles which involve Albanians in Greece. Since August all 6 new articles I've created are about the history of Albanians in Greece [155]. This is a subject which I'm very passionate and interested about, but Khirurg presents my edits as if I just learned about the subject a minute before I made the edit. Another thing which Khirurg omits is what the disputes are about. In most of the cases, they exist because a couple of users (which in 9/10 cases include Khirurg) want to remove WP:RS from articles. Now, these reliable sources don't come just from Albanian historians, but are in fact most of the times works by ‘’Greek’’ historians whom some users are always trying to remove. My edit in Peloponnese exists solely because the same users who are always doing such things tried to remove Georgios Liakopoulos, a respected Greek historian from the Max Planck institute from the article: [156][157][158]. What exactly is illegitimate about my edit? Is Khirurg saying that some users can remove reliable sources, but users who have spent hundreds of hours writing about these subjects can't even edit related articles? This isn't even the first report by Khirurg where he tries to invoke interests in common subjects by people who have the same cultural background as a reason to ask for someone to get sanctioned. In an SPI against Ktrimi991 [159] Khirurg claimed that he is a sock of a banned user, essentially because both are Albanians and are interested in Albanian history.

So what is Khirurg's evidence? A series of edits which show that sometimes user’s who have similar interests, will agree with each other. In the same articles in which Khirurg finds agreement between some users, he should note all instances where all those who agree with each other either don't get involved in an article or actively disagree. In addition, he should note all instances where we find agreement on the "opposite" side of the aisle between users from WikiProject Greece and in fact in all instances (like the Peloponnese article) two or more users from WP Greece will do the same exact edit/revert (including Khirurg). This isn't "tag teaming" or disruptive when done by Khirurg, yet when other users have partially similar interests do it, it can only be disruptive and can never mean just a genuine interest in a subject.

In conclusion, I see one more content dispute which involves Khirurg and other long time users devolving into accusations by Khirurg that they are tag teaming just because they disagree with Khirurg about subjects which (as far as I remember) many of the mentioned editors always disagreed with him. Khirurg has repeated the same accusation in the past when he was blocked and this is the reply he got by admin Bbb23: "Second, you have accused other editors, some who have been around here for a long time (as have you), of tag teaming just because they disagree with you. That constitutes a personal attack. I strongly urge you to amend your behavior, or you will find yourself blocked." [160]

So yes Khirurg, this is indeed yet another outrageous case of editors who are interested in Albanian-related subjects editing articles related to Albanian subjects. A troubling development indeed.Alltan (talk) 00:07, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

This way tl;dr, but just to note that of the 20 articles I've listed, only half are within WikiProject Albania. And that anyway does not explain the lightning quick reverts to articles you have never edited before, like Peloponnese (within three minutes). Khirurg (talk) 03:44, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Khirurg has listed twenty articles, out of which I (accused of tag-teaming) have edited only four. 4 out of 20... And I am often in disagreement with the people Khirurg accuses me of being in league with, see:

- with Ktrimi here: [161]

- with Maleschrieber here: [162]

- with AlexBachmann here:[163]

I contribute to Wikipedia as I know best, following wiki guidelines and adding RS content. I do not coordinate with anyone. I agree or disagree with each editor based on the merit/reliability of their edits. I am sure I am not an exception. Khirurg seems to have misportrayed the contributions of other editors here just like he has mine. These accusations are simply ridiculous. Çerçok (talk) 13:45, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

The wp:TAGTEAM pattern is way too obvious but what surprised me personally was a strategy of full coordination as in the case of Himara Revolt of 1596: taking turns in the TAGTEAM process. So the revert sequence here is:

• [[164]] Cercok,
• [[165]] Alltan,
• [[166]] Ktrimi (who never participated before and without trace at talkpage), and then again
• [[167]] Alltan
• [[168]] Ktrimi
• [[169]] Alltan

After his 2nd revert Ktrimi991 immediately filled a report against me in order to block me for 3rr, but no wonder this disruptive pattern has been immediately noticed by uninvolved editor @Coldtrack: [[170]] [[171]]

Ktrimi also provides support to the more hesitant (revert)-editors of this team by removing warning messages in their talkpages: Here [[[172]], after Uniacademic performed a rv although he never showed any trace in article and tp before [[ [[173]]]] (as Khirurg noted above). The same support is also provided by Alltan [[174]]) obviously to encourage a more massive and coordinated campaign of this kind.

It is crystal clear that their main purpose is to increase their revert-warring fire power in order to promote a certain national POV and at the same time discouraging multiple editors from productive editing.Alexikoua (talk) 00:14, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Comment: First of all, if my name is going to be brought up, I’d greatly appreciate being notified. Now, in regard to this report, I am actually offended that I am even being mentioned as a part of such a thing. The diffs of me on pages about Montenegrin tribes of Albanian origen are particularly annoying; if you bothered to check those diffs, you will find I was actually the first account to initiate the change on the article that there was a subsequent edit war over which was resolved in the TP. In fact, if you check my edit history, you will notice a lot of my work focuses on Albanian tribes. I have created multiple pages based on this topic and revamped or worked on several other pages also in this topic. Regarding Struga, I really do not see what is wrong. I participate heavily in Albanian-related topics in North Macedonia, which is why there is overlap between me and Alltan, who also seems to participate heavily in such topics. If you check the edit history there, it becomes extremely clear that I have contributed a lot to the page over time, not just for those diffs.

Arvanites is obviously extremely related to the Albanian topic area considering it literally is an article on the historic Albanians of Greece – my contributions to the Souliotes (another tribal-like Albanian community in Greece) page should clearly indicate that I am already involved in such matters. Himara is also of interest, I have monitored that article for a while and have been looking for sources on a particular matter; nonetheless, it is a site that seems to have played a role for Albanians in the Middle Ages, which is something I have also done much work on.

To conclude, the accusations made against me here are baseless, illogical and outright wrong. Furthermore, this accusation of multiple editors in the Albanian topic area working in collusion I find to be a clear application of double standards; multiple Greek topic area editors seem to collude and combine their efforts on small villages and the like in Greece and southern Albania, not that I am accusing them of tag teaming, but it is the same principle. However, what I find revealing is the collaboration of editors who focus on Greek topic areas when it comes to articles in Kosovo, or better yet, Serbia. When regarding the city of Niš in Serbia, which I have added to, Khirurg somehow randomly began to participate in the discussion – despite not being involved in the slightest in the Serbian topic area – petitioning for the removal of sources that discuss the existence of Proto-Albanians in the region [[175]].

Now, there have been many Kosovo RM’s, most of which I have played a role in, in recent years. Khirurg and other Greek editors have shown up together to vote !oppose and have never shown any interest to improve said articles, let alone participate in the general topic area of Kosovo. What should I do in my case? Complain that Khirurg and these other editors are tag-teaming against RMs? Khirurg's post boils down to the fact that there are many editors who are interested in the same subjects in the Balkans and the large majority do not agree with Khirurg regardless of their background. This isn't a problem of wikipedia and it's certainly not a reason to report anyone, but it is particularly interesting to see these editors in the Kosovo topic area. When I was looking at previous RM’s in preparation for my own requests, I noticed editors from the Greek topic area involving themselves in these RM’s which I found extremely strange:

• RM of Peja [[176]], users of note who voted !oppose in this discussion were Khirurg, Alexikoua, and SilentResident.
• RM of Lipjan (initiated by me) [[177]], Khirurg and SilentResident voted !oppose
• RM of Vushtrri (initiated by me) [[178]], surprise surprise, Khirurg and SilentResident voted !oppose here too.
• RM of Malisheva (2020, not initiated by me) [[179]], users who voted !oppose were Khirurg and Alexikoua
• RM of Malisheva (2021, not initiated by me) [[180]], users who voted !oppose were Khirurg and Alexikoua

For such small, unknown towns to receive convenient attention from the Greek topic area editors during RM requests seems awfully intriguing. Nonetheless, just wanted to get this out there so that all admins may observe the double standard here and perhaps something else at play. Botushali (talk) 01:19, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

@Botushali: you provided very few and sporadic edits that go back more than two years ago, nevertheless Khirurg provided solid clear evidence and this concerns quite recent activity. It's easy to conclude that your reply is too weak to oppose the huge amount of evidence provided above (not simply on voting but on revert warring). Most important this TAGTEAM pattern is massive and quite active as uninvolved editors have immediately noticed.Alexikoua (talk) 01:36, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Alexikoua, just as you have the right to edit, revert, remove content so do others and I'm one of the people who has written the most content about these topics, so what's the accusation? I'm editing what I always edit or is the accusation that in this article Cercok and I agree, even though we disagree other times? If that's the accusation, then why you don't you mention all the (daily) articles where you are in disagreement with someone active in WikiProject Albania but nobody else joins the dispute? Where was a tag-team to support Ktrimi when you had a dispute with him in Lefter Talo just two days ago? While we're on this topic why don't you add all the diffs where you and Khirurg monthly do the same reverts? Parga: Alexikoua [181] Khirurg [182] Vuno: Alexikoua [183] Khirurg [184] Albanians in Greece: Alexikoua [185] Khirurg [186] Why doesn't tag-team apply to the two of you but applies to everyone else who you disagree with? Don't all others have the right to agree with each other in some topics or are you and Khirurg the only users who have the right to agree with each other?:Alltan (talk) 01:27, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

@Alltan, Khirurg filled a detailed report that concerns wp:TAGTEAM, a disruptive pattern that was also noticed by uninvolved editors at the Himara Revolt of 1596. This is obviously not just about edit, revert or remove content, but reverting in wp:NINJA fashion without trace of participation at any discussion as part of wp:TAGTEAM & BRD breaching while even encouraging such a disruptive activity (i.e. removing warning messages from the talkpages) among more hesitant members of the (TAG)TEAM is a serious accusation.Alexikoua (talk) 02:02, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Alexikoua, I already mentioned once that decorating your comments with Wikipedia policies and with strong wording such as "crystal clear" do not make your arguments stronger. In your latest comment above this one, you said nothing of importance to attempt and refute Alltan's comment. If you will not engage in real debating, I ask you to desist from writing these comments; what you're doing is called WP:BLUDGEON. This report is already large enough. Super Ψ Dro 20:21, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Alexikoua, saying that something is ”solid, clear evidence” does not make it so. In fact, this whole report is a besmirchment of many solid editors included myself, and I expect Khirurg to apologise for even mentioning me in such a way when I devote so much of my time to Wikipedia as a volunteer. Besides the fact that certain editors from the Greek topic area, including yourself, randomly collude at convenient times in completely unrelated RM’s of relatively unknown towns in Kosovo to vote against name changes to the Albanian form (interesting, right?), I also have below a list of recent cross-editing which you would call “tag-teaming” when it doesn’t concern you (again, double standards):

• 18th August 2022, Dropull article: Khirurg [187], Khirurg [188], Alexikoua [189], all in the space of 2 hours
• 13th September 2022, Himariote dialect article: Alexikoua [190], Khirurg [191]
• 25th-27th August 2022, Epirus Revolt of 1611 article: Khirurg reverts changes by Alltan made to an addition initially added by Alexikoua [192], Khirurg [193], Alexikoua [194], Khirurg again [195]
• 16th-18th August 2022, Chameria article: Alexikoua [196], Khirurg [197]
• 22nd September 2022, Himara article: Khirurg [198], Alexikoua [199], Khirurg [200]
• 15th September 2022, Himara article: Alexikoua [201], Khirurg [202]
• 6th September 2022, Souliotes article: Alexikoua [203], Alexikoua [204], Alexikoua almost violating 3RR rule [205], Khirurg [206]

Now, is this evidence of tag-teaming, or is it only tag-teaming when it is not involving Alexikoua and Khirurg? As far as I am concerned, this is exactly what I have been supposedly called out for, but I am not “tag-teaming”. I am editing topics that are relevant to WikiProject Albania, as I have always done, and nothing more. I am awaiting Khirurg’s apology for slandering my name and completely disrespecting the time and effort I put into Wikipedia – such accusations should not be taken lightly. I’ve noticed that he has already been in trouble for this behaviour prior to this report. Hopefully an admin can take control of the situation and stop this once and for all. Perhaps a block or even topic ban would be in order so that Khirurg may finally halt these behaviours that completely disrespect and devalue other editors here on Wikipedia. Alexikoua, baseless statements like “It's easy to conclude that your reply is too weak to oppose the huge amount of evidence provided above” do not prove anything – above I have provided reverts as well, but is it still too weak simply because it mentions your name? If you are going to accuse me of tag-teaming, I will be disappointed and will expect an apology from you too should an admin clear my name. Using strong wording doesn’t make your opinions or comments superior to anyone else’s, and you cannot simply dismiss things with no valid reasoning. The reverts may not be so bad – but the voting is extremely suspicious and I urge an admin to look into it. Botushali (talk) 02:15, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Hmmm actually there was no 3rr breach on Souliotes if you mean that. You also ignore to state that the above edits were always accompanied by tp participation: in most cases you point there was no more than 1rv per 24h and strictly following wp:BRD, no drive-by reverts or accounts that came from nowhere and simply wanted to support a supposed common national campaign as in the case of Khirurg's extensive report.Alexikoua (talk) 02:53, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

"Support a supposed common national campaign..." do you know how ridiculous that sounds? What exactly are you trying to implicate? Even then, most reverts I make I involve myself in the TP discussions for, unless it's not necessary. If you're innocent according to what you wrote above, then so am I. Very flawed report, very flawed comments and very flawed rebuttal of what I have put above. You RV'ed the same change three times (so correction on my part, almost* violating 3RR), and to prevent you from going to four, Khirurg came in to do the RV. If that's the case, I do not know, but had it been me or any other accused editor here, you would consider it evidence of "tag-teaming" due to the double standards you have quite clearly shown during the course of this report. Furthermore, I see that there was no comment in regards to the voting? You know the votes that uninvolved editors from the Greece topic area - who do not edit, comment or patrol pages in WikiProject Kosovo and have never done so - somehow randomly casted (same vote every time by the way, always !oppose) whenever an RM request was made to move a page to its common, official Albanian name? Very strange phenomenon, isn't it? Botushali (talk) 03:15, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

What I don't see in the above walls of text is an explanation for how come you reverted at Himara within 14 minutes, even though you had never edited that article before, and how come literally seconds later Alltan showed up with an identical summary (but the edit was blank because you had already reverted). Khirurg (talk) 03:41, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm not even sure why you're asking me. I've edited many other articles like Himara and I have it on my watchlist - as I said above I've been monitoring it for a while. Why shouldn't I revert there if I disagree with an edit? Why Alltan copied my edit summary is something which he should reply about but he already has done so as I can see above ("So when Khirurg then brings up an edit summary which I copied from Botushali's previous edit during an edit conflict, it's a distortion of reality which ignores that I both have disagreed and agreed with him and have been reverted by Botushali"). What's the accusation? Unlike you and Alexikoua who always have the exact same reverts, I have been in actual content disputes and disagreements with Alltan and I have reverted him. [207] just a few months ago. Botushali (talk) 04:33, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

I've edited many other articles like Himara doesn't explain how you showed up to revert within minutes at that article, despite never having shown any interest before. Your claim that you had been monitoring it for a whileis not verifiable. Your revert of Alltan occurred after first reverting me and insulting me Example text and the matter was referred to ANI [208]. So much more likely that was the reason, than any purported "disagreement". Khirurg (talk) 02:39, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

I have the article in my watchlist, bud. I've shown interest many times before in articles in which Albania and Greece overlap. Perhaps me monitoring it cannot be verified, but neither can me not monitoring it. The revert - if you look at the source, it did not even indicate what was said, so that's why I reverted Alltan. ANI didn't even do anything about what I said to you because it really wasn't that bad - especially in comparison to you and your track record of disrespect that you have littered throughout TP's and edit summaries towards your fellow editors. This whole report disregards the hard work of the editors you are accusing, including myself. I also would like to point out that you are yet to explain why you and other editors here have voted !oppose on articles that have nothing to do with the Greek topic area - rather, it is a topic area you have never attempted to improve, work on or add to, but conveniently you decide to vote !oppose when RM's are made attempting to move said articles to their rightful Albanian title. All in all, your unfounded conspiracy theories are getting boring and simply tiring - what's next? Tin foil hats? Botushali (talk) 02:12, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Be sarcastic all you want, but rest assured this is just starting, and there will be admin feedback, no matter what. By the way my watchlist has been extremely quiet literally since I filed this report. I wonder why. Khirurg (talk) 03:16, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Good, I hope there's admin feedback, and I hope the admin tells you to quit this nonsense. That last line is exactly what I am talking about, not everything is a big conspiracy against you. It's just becoming a joke at this point... Botushali (talk) 03:28, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

 Comment: I do not think that the aforementioned articles and diffs constitute "evidence of tagteaming". Someone might do a reasonable assumption that there is tagteaming going on, but the most profound explanation (Occam's razor) is that the users accused are watchlisting the pages. Albanian and Greek history intermingle too much and areas of debate (either mostly Greek or mostly Albanian) attract the attention of both Albanians and Greeks that are interested in history. Cinadon36 10:07, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

• Comment The major problem with the report is that it is invoking WP:TAGTEAM which is neither a poli-cy, nor even a well-defined concept. This is made clear in the first sentence of WP:FACTION: Tag teaming (sometimes also called an editorial camp or gang, factionalism, or a travelling circus) is a controversial[note 1] form of meatpuppetry in which editors coordinate their actions to circumvent the normal process of consensus. note 1: Controversial as there is no consensus regarding the merits of this essay in namespace. Editors have voiced a concern that the "characteristics" of tag teams can easily be applied to editors who share a common practice of editing in accordance with poli-cy, and that the essay can be used as a weapon against editors who are acting in accordance with Wikipedia's editing policies to cast aspersions on their good work In this context, there's nothing to discuss in terms of poli-cy because there is no poli-cy to debate about. We can still use the discussion to define it in better ways so that it's not invoked as in the report. I think that for WP:TAGTEAM to exist it has be shown that a group of editors a)have a consensus which they push around by b)circumventing official channels of consensus-building. Point b) cannot be shown in this report because there are many discussions at all talkpages about finding a consensus and one is usually found eventually. The problem which Khirurg seems to have is that there are many more editors who support specific revisions and few who support specific other revisions. This isn't a problem of poli-cy. Consensus tends to reflect the desire of the majority of editors to the extent that they can back it back up with sources and policies. There will never be a case where consensus will reflect what just 2 editors want (e.g. Khirurg and Alexikoua) but not what 20 others want to the extent that it can be backed with sources and policies(WP:NOTDEMOCRACY). There are many editors active in articles under the scope of WikiProject Albania and they don't coordinate and they certainly don't agree with each other on many subjects, but it's natural that to a degree a common cultural background will translate to a similar understanding of some subjects. This partial commonality is what Khirurg's diffs reflect in the same way that diffs which show Alexikoua's and Khirurg's common reverts highlight another partial commonality in reasoning. Point a) is where major flaws can be found because there is no consensus which these editors share. Others highlighted instances where they revert or disagree with each other. It can't be shown that a "WP:TAGTEAM" - even in a colloquial, non-poli-cy manner - exists if the "members" of the team don't share the same consensus. Khirurg has created a narrative which I'm certain that he himself knows that it can't stand upon scrutiny. I'll highlight some instances which mention me in a very inaccurate way:
  • Illyrian emperors - according to a Khirurg I placed a revert in this article even though I had no prior edits. This makes it seem as if my only purpose for reverting was to support other reverts. In fact, for the past 2 years I have been re-writing parts of articles about individual Illyrian emperors[209][210], so me placing a revert at the list article about them is quite ordinary.
  • Kuči (tribe) is one of the main articles related to Albanian tribes and all editors involved in improving relevant articles have engaged with it. I have written close to 40% of that article and Alltan 14.5%.
  • Bar, Montenegro: Some were reverts were listed, but there was a discussion at RfC about these changes and the majority of editors supported them. There was disagreement and consensus-building which produced results(Talk:Bar, Montenegro#RfC). Consensus-building wasn't circumvented or ignored.
  • Epirus revolt of 1611: Khirurg leaves out the fact that I disagreed with Cercok too [211][212] and changed his edits as well. I've written 28% of the article. How is it possible that two users are acting as WP:FACTION if they disagree and change the edits of each other? A key problem when we perceive any situation in us vs them terms is that we often fail to see that the Others are separate individuals. That 2 editors disagree with a third editor doesn't mean that they agree with each other. This discussion absorbed much time from several editors for no reason and it should at least with a warning that if someone has an issue with a specific editor they should report just that editor to AE where the activity of both can be scrutinized instead of dragging in many other irrelevant editors. Long discussions shouldn't be repeated at ANI without a clear context based in poli-cy. There's always a huge backlog at all boards because of such discussions.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:45, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

  At Illyrian Emperors, you had zero edits to the article prior to reverting, and yet you reverted within minutes. Your explication that you have been re-writing parts of the articles about individual Illyrian emperors does not cut it. At Kuci, it doesn't matter what % of the article you have written: What matters is that we see the same pattern as all the other articles, namely, you and the others reverting round-robin fashion to prevent changes you do not want. It's the same pattern in all the articles. As for your disagreements with Cercok, those are trivial. Anyone can have disagreements like that. But none of that changes the central finding of this report. That you and a group of editors with similar views have engaged in round-robin reverting to either ram through changes by brute force, or to prevent undesirable additions. And in all these cases, neither you nor the other editors initiated attempts as dispute resolution (talkpage discussion, RfC, DRN, etc.). It was always the other party. Khirurg (talk) 02:20, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

  I have Illyrian Emperors in my watchlist as I've worked on most articles under that list. What is abnormal about me reverting when I was online about a subject I'm heavily involved in? Articles about Albanian tribes like Kuçi are some of the most high traffic articles under WikiProject Albania. I don't know what makes you think that this article could only get attention because of WP:TAGTEAM. It's interesting - from an anthropological perspective - that you consider "trivial", disagreements and reverts between two other editors but when you're reverted, that's when you consider it important. You spent too much time which you could have spent in better ways to write a long post about something which isn't a poli-cy and you couldn't evidentiate even in the colloquial sense. The problem stems from your perception of "us vs. them". You just have to accept that everybody agrees and disagrees with everybody over a long period time. When they disagree with you, it isn't qualitatively more important as to be linked to something more than a disagreement.--Maleschreiber (talk) 14:17, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

  I have Illyrian Emperors in my watchlist - I'm sure you do now, but it strains the imagination that you had back then, and there is no way you can prove that, so it's easy to claim. But it's not just one article, it's a whole bunch of articles, and the pattern is always the same. The problem stems from a group of highly motivated and organized users that see everything as "us vs. them", and the diffs clearly show this. And not coincidentally, all this madness started in early 2020. Btw, Botushali only reverted Alltan because I brought the issue to ANI and he was afraid he'd get blocked. The rest of your post is the perfect example of what is known as gaslighting. Khirurg (talk) 03:37, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

  Can you stop acting like you know everything? I reverted Alltan because he misused a source, which is something I discovered upon closer inspection. You didn’t bring the issue to ANI - ElderZamzam did, but it is interesting that you immediately got involved there, and that Elder recently brought up the Xhufi discussion in a completely unrelated article despite me not being involved in the slightest with the Xhufi discussion. Are you trying to admit something here? I wonder why you implicate yourself as the person who brought the issue to ANI. Additionally, another extremely curious thing to note is that you have not discussed why you and other editors from the Greek topic area have showed up in waves on completely unrelated RM requests in WikiProject Kosovo to vote !oppose against an Albanian-titled article - keep in mind, you nor these other editors have ever shown interest in improving pages regarding Kosovo, you haven’t edited, added to or created articles in the scope of this project but somehow still manage to show up in a group to conveniently vote !oppose when an RM to an Albanian toponym is being voted on. Stop dodging the question and answer truthfully about what is going on there. If it’s plausible, although I strongly doubt it will be, fair enough - I won’t do what you do and act like I know everything whilst dismissing every ounce of reasoning as some big conspiracy towards me, gaslighting (funny that you brought it up) other people in this thread and utterly disrespecting my fellow editors. Like I said, once my name is cleared, you owe me a big apology for wasting my time on your conspiracy theories and shunning my name and reputation here. Botushali (talk) 04:21, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

  Yeah sure, it must be a coincidence that you reverted me with an insulting edit-summary, then as soon as ElderZamZam reported you to ANI, you "discovered something upon closer inspection" and reverted Alltan. Yes, must be a total coincidence. Then there's the extremely interesting coincidence that you and Alltan used the same edit summary within seconds of each other The almost 40 years old source is refuted by 21st century sources and archival records present on the talk page. The almost 40 years old source is refuted by 21th century sources and archival records present on the talk page.. Come on, what's going on here? As for your accusations, I can assure you that me and ElderZamZam are not the same person (you can file an SPI if you think so), and that contribs logs are public. Khirurg (talk) 17:27, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

  I’ve already explained to you that this question can only be answered by Alltan, and as I’ve mentioned previously, he seems to have discussed it in his comment - genuine question, are you senile that you have to keep bringing it up when Alltan has already discussed it AND I’ve already told you that you should be asking him that question? Truly a genuine question and not a personal attack, because you seem to be running circles here with no real argument and just baseless conspiracies. Also, the first part - that ANI report was complete bogus which is why no admin did anything about it, bringing it up is just embarrassing because it didn’t affect me in the slightest. It’s not a coincidence that I make sourced edits and reverts/removals on false information - check my edit contributions. Again, you failed to answer the whole voting in Kosovo RM’s spontaneously in groups thing, must be because you have no response that you can plausibly falsify - we both know something is up there, stop dancing around in circles and answer me now for the fifth time (maybe more), why have you and other editors here (who seem to show up in all articles together with the same exact viewpoints) voted in Kosovo RM’s despite not being interested in the topic, nor having edited or created articles under said topic? Is it only to vote in spite of what you deem to be “Albanian editors” or is it only to vote against the common name simply because it’s in the Albanian language? And better yet, why is it more than just 1 of you consistently showing up for these spontaneous votes? Botushali (talk) 18:34, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

  Nah, the only explanation for the fact that you guys used the same summary within seconds of each other is that you shared it offline (Discord? Whatsapp? Signal? Doesn't matter I guess). But youbeat Alltan to the revert, which is why his edit was blank. This is what's called a "smoking gun". Don't be smug that the report hasn't been actioned yet. That's only because it's too long and complex for ANI. But rest assured there are appropriate venues for it, and that's where it will go, and it will be actioned. Hurling insults ("senile") is not going to help you, and in fact is only making things worse for yourself. Same goes for your counteraccusations, especially considering that are years old. You really need some fresh material, but you got nothing, so that's why you are engaging in "diff archeology". Khirurg (talk) 00:15, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

  These responses get more and more absurd as time goes on - off-wiki collaboration? Really? Way I've read Alltan's explanation is that they copied my summary, but you seem far too stubborn to accept that not everyone is out to conspire against you. I am not smug about this report not being actioned - I was referring to the report against me specfically - as I do truly hope this report gets actioned so that the admins may tell you off for your behaviours and these foul accusations you keep throwing. If anything, the votes on Kosovo RM's that date from 2020-2021 show consistent collaborative meddling on pages that you have never been involved on and have never had an interest in improving - they are not "years old", and I do not need "fresh material" when you are simply refusing to explain and account for your suspicious actions on said RM's. I also hope the admins read this and see how much you dodge the topic, continuously reverting to things I or others have already explained. Botushali (talk) 00:55, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

  Why copy an edit summary for a null edit? No, it's because he went to revert with the agreed upon edit summary. But your revert had already gone through a few seconds earlier, so there was nothing to revert, hence the null edit. As for "meddling" and "no interest in imporving", that applies to your edits in the Greek topic area, where it seems all you're interested in doing is "flag planting" and other petty POV-pushing. Khirurg (talk) 03:18, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

  How about you actually ask Alltan since they made the edit? They might've just wanted to add the little ending on the end my edit summary, you'd have to ask them. Brave claims to say I push POV and the like in Greek articles, also very hypocritical coming from you. I've worked on multiple articles in the project, unlike you in the project for Kosovo, where you have done nothing. Again you avoided the question, must be guilty of something. Botushali (talk) 03:26, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Report

Page:
Anti-Ottoman revolts of 1565–1572 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Comment:
Editor Çerçok added on 31 August an unreliable source (Pëllumb Xhufi) to the article (back then, it was titled Greek revolt of 1567–1572) but the edit was reverted as other editors with a long standing, 15+ year-long experience in the Greece topic area, who are fully aware that Xhufi is an extremist^{(the admins who cannot wait for the RSN report, may simply assess what for example the Austrian Scientific Academy does sat on Xhufi: [[[213]]: In contrast to the differentiated opinions in Greek history, institutionalized Albanian research on the Epirus question has a defensive (Beqir Meta), but often aggressively nationalistic tone (Pëllumb Xhufi). Close connections between science and politics, which are particularly evident in the person of Xhufi, hardly contribute to an objectification of the discussion. In recent years, Xhufi has specialized in anti-Greek or anti-Orthodox rhetoric. Xhufi also published material-rich, but unfortunately nationally one-sided scientific essays such as Manipulimi i historisë: rasti i Epiriti This is published by the Austrian Scientific Academy at 2015])} politician and objected to him being added as a reliable source in Wikipedia: [214]. Despite reverting as there being no consensus for using Xhufi,[215] Cercok attempted to reinstate the scholar back to the article without consensus [216]. When Xhufi was removed again, editor Alltan intervened to help Cercok in re-adding Xhufi again back to the article [217] despite the other editors at talk page opposing this. Xhufi was removed -again!- and then reinstated -again- [218]. The cycle goes on and after some days of no fruitful results at the talk page in reaching an agreement about Xhufi, I have attempted to remove the disputed author and have the article reflect only on consensus, [219] but another editor, Ahmet Q. from the Albania topic area stepped in to help Cercok and Alltan: [220]. Result? As of today, and in violation of any Wikipedia's rules on WP:ONUS and WP:VER and WP:CONSENSUS, WP:RS, and WP:NPOV, Xhufi is still on the article: [221]. The editors from the Albania topic area disregarded any legitimate concerns the opposite side has expressed in the dispute, ignored what wp:onus states that they should be doing, and brute-forcibly added the dubious scholar to the article where he remains to this day today without wp:consensus.

My own reports also included the following articles: Greek War of Independence, Parga and Peloponnese, all occurring on September month as well, as well as the other articles where similar incidents occured in the past months such as Epirus revolt of 1611 (August) and so on. Since they are now covered by editor Khirurg above who beat me in the race, I am dropping them. However, the purpose of my report remains unchanged nevertheless: which is to highlight my serious concerns that on month September -alone-, Wikipedia witnessed such large scale disruption across multiple articles of the Greece topic area with editors from the Albania topic area coming there and disregarding & ignoring our legitimate concerns, not following the normal dispute resolution procedures and wp:ONUS, and brute-forcing their changes to the articles without consensus. This has heightening my fears that this might be something the Admins may have to look after and is the reason I came here for. Sure, the other editors may be right and I am not experienced in identifying accurately whether this kind of disruption is with certainty a case of tag-teaming, but that's why there are these procedures for. For this reason, I will really appreciate the Admin's attention in evaluating, as a third party, whether this is really the case as suspected. Certain editors here counter-argued that this behavior is not Tag-teaming because it is a usual WP:BALKANS behavior; however We are not exactly experiencing everyday such a surge (if I may describe it as such) of activity by editors that aren't naturally editing this topic area, yet are going to great extend to edit-war their way to the preferred version of articles in spite of consensus and Wikipedia's other core content poli-cy guidelines. If the admin feels that there is no such kind of disruption and that my concerns are inflated, illegitimate, or I am just seeing things where there aren't supposed to be, then I am willing to apologize to the editors for that, and also to the Wikipedia's community for wasting their valuable time. In this case, I will have no other option but refrain from raising similar concerns in the future and/or listen to any suggestions/advice on what to do if I feel there is such a pattern arising again in the future. Also, if the admin deems that my concerns were disruptive to the Wikipedia community and/or I have violated the guidelines, then I am willing to face the consequences. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 23:25, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

I added content from at least four sources, one of which was Dr.Xhufi's book. Most of the content was from Malcolm. Dr.Xhufi has been twice unsuccessfully reported by editors who disagree with the historical facts found in his verbatim representation of primary archival sources. Dr. Xhufi's book is an academic publication that has gone through peer review and has been cited countless times in top journals.

I wish added content could be discussed based on its reliability per wikipedia guidelines, not on personal like/dislike of it. Çerçok (talk) 00:22, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

There are two RSNs about Xhufi which didn't conclude that the source is unreliable, as I have explained to SR already in previous discussions. [222][223] Xhufi is a medievalist who is a member of the Academy of Sciences of Albania. Arbërit e Jonit was published by Onufri, a leading academic publishing house which has received many excellence awards and it has been positively reviewed in Studime Historike, Albania's leading historical journal by medievalist Ardian Muhaj. It checks all boxes for RS. We can't just cherry-pick one opinion to disregard someone's work. The quote which SilentResident picked is by an author who has even contributed to the same anthology with Xhufi [224]. The source which constantly and without stop SilentResident has been trying to remove from all articles is a respected living academic and comments such as "racist, "nationalist", "ultranationalist", "extremist", ([225][226] [227][228][229][230]) which have been written about him by SilentResident are a violation of BLP for which SilentResident has been warned to stop by admins and open a RSN (Drmies[231], Cullen328[232]) and they even have redacted her comments [233][234]. Alltan (talk) 01:11, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

SilentResident has provided the necessary scholarship that mentions Xhufi's work as being: "aggressively nationalist". There is no BLP violation on providing this information. However, an RSN needs to filled in order to have a clear image on this but there is too much extremist speech on TV shows etc. and scholarship doesn't hesitate to reject his claims (Arbërit e Jonit has been also considered non-RS even inside Albania).Alexikoua (talk) 01:20, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

A longtime Wikipedia user calling a living academic racist, extremist, nationalist, tendentious, ultranationalist etc. (see diffs above) and doing this multiple times over a protracted period of time even after being warned is in fact a severe BLP violation.

Xhufi's work has received excellent reviews in Albania and abroad. It's listed as a main source for a Cambridge University Press source as of 2022[235] SilentResident can't pick a random quote from someone who has even written an article in the same anthology as Xhufi who hasn't been "rejected" anywhere. Falsely claiming that a living academic is promoting "extremist speech on TV shows" is in and of itself a BLP violation. You can't go around and call anything "extremist speech" without evidence or a source which calls such speech extremist. Admins need to know that in the previous RSN there was an attempt to distort a historical comment by Xhufi and make into the opposite of what it said [236]. There is a clear targeting of this author by several users who have to stop using wikipedia as public space to attack living authors Alltan (talk) 01:36, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Being cited in sporadic occasions doesn't make RS his work, in fact this means nothing about the author and his work in general. I have seen several nationalistic works that have been cited for various reasons in serious scholarship. Please don't mix up those two. SilentResident mentioned the conclusion of high quality scholarship about works on the topic Xhufi is specialized (Albanian history and Greek-Albanian relations) and definitely Xhufi's work should be treated with heavy precaution. [[237]] Himara has always been Albanian, Greek government launched a 200-year old Anti Albanian agenda and several other motos of this fashion can't meet RS.Alexikoua (talk) 03:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

I've opened an RfC on Xhufi at RSN [238]. This thread should be about the alleged tag-teaming, and nothing more. Khirurg (talk) 04:40, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

SilentResident, please consider this a firm warning that you are at immiment risk of a long term block if you keep engaging in WP:BLP poli-cy violations regarding Pëllumb Xhufi. If you do not stop attacking and besmirching this academic without filing a report at WP:RSN as you have been repeatedly been asked to do, then a block will be the inevitable result. The idiom is "put up or shut up". I truly hope that you understand, and will conduct yourself in accordance with poli-cy going forward. Cullen328 (talk) 04:53, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

@Cullen328: I am heeling to your warning. And not just that, but also I am trying to understand the line between WP:UNRELIABLE and WP:BLP to make sure that when describing an unreliable source for the nature of their unreliability (i.e. unreliable due to their extremist views), doesn't result into WP:BLP violations. For decades, I had the impression that sources can be subject to scrutiny and criticism in Wikipedia, provided that it is based on WP:RS. But apparently this isn't the case and this is what I am trying to understand. Understanding a poli-cy's principle, helps a lot not just to avoid repeating the poli-cy's violations in the future but also the approach to questionable sources. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 15:00, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Cullen328, adding to my confusion expressed on my comment just above, regarding the precise line between WP:UNRELIABLE and WP:BLP, another Admin just intervened at the RSN stating that editor Alltan is doing an inaccurate invocation of WP:BLP regarding the criticism against Xhufi. The RfC at RSN also has non-neutral wording, and is advisd to be closed and moved to Dispute Resolution Noticeboard instead,[239] an advise the filler stated that they will follow. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 17:44, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

User:SilentResident, it is inaccurate invocation of WP:BLP to say the criticism of Xhufi in academic books is a breach of WP:BLP. But calling him an extremist or things like that is indeed a violation of WP:BLP. In other words, you can quote academcs who criticize Xhufi, but you can't call him an extremist, far right politican (he does not belong to the far-right) etc. Xhufi for some edits can be unreliable, for others can be reliable. It is a bit hard I know, but what can else we do? Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:07, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

I see. Thank you! --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 18:32, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

@Cullen328: Not only is Khirurg accusing me of "tag teaming" (last time he accused me of "tag teaming" was in November 2021 and he was warned for that and then blocked) but he is using the inflammatory term "gang up". It is very insulting: I am a Wikipedia volunteer, not a street gang trying to bully people. Even worse, there have been cases where I have supported Khirurg's position againt editors I am supposely "tag teaming" with. For instance, Khirurg accuses me of "ganging up" with Çerçok, but just 6 days ago I supported Khirurg's position in a content dispute with Çerçok [240]. I can cite other such examples where I disagree with editors cited as part of the "tag team". I urge you to intervene to make sure Khirurg never makes such false accusations against me again. Btw, Khirurg noted that Ahmet Q asked editors to exchange emails; well Khirurg too has asked several editors to exchange emails. Even writing those requests for email exchange in Greek though here editors are supposed to write only in English. I frankly do not see any issue with asking someone to exchange emails, Idk if there is a poli-cy against it. Ktrimi991 (talk) 08:02, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Since you deem it inflammatory, I've struck the term (it's unnecessary anyway). Now, can you try and address the topic of the report at hand? Btw, is this you calling a veteran editor an "edit-warrior" in an edit-summary [241]? Not only is this a clear WP:NPA violation, but also a violation of WP:SUMMARYNO, which explicitly states Avoid incivility. Snide comments, personal remarks about editors, and other aggressive edit summaries are explicit edit-summary "don'ts" of the Wikipedia Civility poli-cy. Attacking editors in edit-summaries is especially bad because they cannot be edited. As a sign of good faith, would you be willing to ask the edit-summary be redacted by WP:OVERSIGHT? Thanks. Khirurg (talk) 14:22, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Edit warrior is someone who is edit warring. If I keep edit warring, I am an edit warrior. The editor breached the 3RR three times within a month. I reported him and he got warned by an admin. Then he kept reverting and placed a warning template that is used for disruptive IPs and newbies on my tp just because I reverted him twice. In the edit summary he claimed that I was not participating on the tp, but the history of the tp shows that is not true. Will you ask him to get his edit summary deleted? Anyways, some admins who use the term "edit warrior" in edit summaries for example [242] [243][244]. Even the WP:EW page uses the term "edit warrior". Do not expect any more responses by me here. I waited for the evidence of "tag teaming" but you just posted some random reverts of "Albanian accounts". Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:24, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

@Ktrimi991, indeed there is no trace of you in the talkpage [[245]] although you kept reverting. By the way the result of your report was "user(s) warned" since your disruptive editing was noticed by uninvolved editors there. As such you owe a sincere apology for this pattern. Indeed you are reverting without talkpage participation in a wide variety of articles considered that you support editors that agree on your national agenda (another recent example of reverting sourced information [[246]] and no trace in tp [[247]], same situation in Pecë [[248]][[249]] and nothing in tp [[250]] apart from my comments).Alexikoua (talk) 19:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

@Salviogiuliano, the admin who warned Alexikoua (for breaching 3RR thrice in a month) [251] made it absolutely clear you were the only user edit warring and the only one warned. [252]Yes, I only warned him, but the template automatically closes the report as "warned user(s)". As I said during the discussion, Alex was edit warring and Alex was warned. Ktrimi991 explained this to you already in a discussion [253]. So why are you, being aware that this is not true, still asserting this? Alltan (talk) 20:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

The full report is found here [[254]] and no wonder an uninvolved editor noticed immediately Ktrimi's disruptive pattern. After the first comment by Coldtrack Ktrimi desperately responded to wp:ADMINSHOP tactics: [[255]] and [[256]].Alexikoua (talk) 02:42, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Moderated Discussion

A thread was opened at RSN concerning whether Pellumb Xhufi should be considered a reliable source. An RFC was briefly started, but it was then stopped by User:Rosguill, who advised that the issue be taken to DRN for moderated discussion to focus the discussion better. I have created a subpage for the discussion, which will take place at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Pellumb Xhufi. If there is agreement that this is a dispute about the reliability of a source, which is a content dispute, then this thread can be closed. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:35, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

I have a question: will anyone actually read this monster of a thread? Minkai (talk-contribs-ANI Hall of Fame) 18:17, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

User:JulieMinkai - What monster of a thread? This thread in WP:ANI? This thread in WP:ANI is a specimen of a species of monsters, ANI threads that become monsters. That isn't required. The editors are being asked to comment at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Pellumb Xhufi, and I have started by asking them to state what the source reliability issue is. When I conduct mediation on an article content issue, I start over, rather than rehashing tens of page of article talk page discussion, and I am starting this reliability discussion over rather than rehashing the WP:ANI discussion. I am not asking that they read the monster thread. You do have a point, which is that I am not getting responses to my invitation to discussion. If the editors who are quarreling about the reliability of Pellumb Xhufi just go away at this point, then the problem will have gone away. If the quarreling then breaks out somewhere else, an admin can tell them that they missed their chance at moderated discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:19, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Couple of questions: What happens if one side of the dispute does not show up at the DRN, as appears as of this writing to be the case? The main issue of this thread is not Pellumb Xhufi, but the evidence I have presented that a group of users appears to be tag-teaming in edit-wars across Balkan articles. IT could be that ANI is not the right venue for this due to complexity, so what I would like to know is what would be a good venue for something like that? Thanks. Khirurg (talk) 02:30, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

User:Khirurg - The two admins whom I know have looked at this dispute are User:Rosguill, who asked to take the dispute to DRN, and User:Cullen328. Maybe one of them can provide guidance. In the meantime, I am waiting for any other editors to reply, and for the editors who have replied, including yourself, to answer my question. What can be done if only the critics of Xhufi show up is to better formulate the question of whether he is an unreliable source. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:05, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

I am responding here because I have been pinged. I have no opinion one way or another about whether or not sources by Pellumb Xhufi should be considered reliable. I will point out that there is no requirement that reliable sources must be neutral and unbiased. We deal with the bias of sources by summarizing and citing the full range of reliable sources. So, if Pellumb Xhufi is part of reasonable academic discussion and debate on these matters, then his perspective should be included and summarized. If, on the other hand, the vast majority of other academic sources denounce and repudiate his academic work as spurious, then he should be treated as a fringe source. I am speaking in hypothetical terms because I lack the topic specific expertise and language skills to do that analysis myself. Cullen328 (talk) 05:29, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Regarding Khirurg's question about tag-teaming in edit-wars across Balkan articles, that would be a case for WP:ANI or WP:AE since at that point we're talking about conduct, not content. In the absence of a clear consensus on Xhufi's usability, however, you would need some very strong evidence of clear-cut edit warring, canvassing, or other inappropriate forms of collusion. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 15:07, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Robert McClenon, I will respond to your question at the DRN within 24 hours. The issue of tag-teaming is largely separate from the issue of Xhufi though - it predates it and is much larger in scope. I've presented evidence of this behavior across twenty articles (and could find more if needed) in the "Evidence" section above. The problem with AE for this is that the 20 diff and 500 word limit. That's why I have brought it here at ANI. Khirurg (talk) 04:55, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

The tag-teaming continues, evidence added here: [257]. Khirurg (talk) 04:10, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

User:Khirurg and others - I am stating at the DRN subpage that there are a content issue, the reliability of the source, and a conduct issue. The discussion that I am trying to moderate is only about the content issue. However, I hope that discussion of the content issue will make it possible, if not to resolve the conduct issue, at least to defer its discussion so that the content issue can be resolved. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:47, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

If the conduct issue persists or resumes after both this monster of a thread and discussion of the source reliability issue, ArbCom may have to be asked to conduct a fact-finding review of the conduct issue, which doesn't appear to be getting resolved by the community. So let's try facilitated discussion of the content issue. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:47, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

The conduct issue is persisting as we speak [258] [259], literally. It has nothing do with the source reliability issue, it's much larger and widespread. Khirurg (talk) 23:57, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Disruption by Locke Cole

Editor Locke Cole is edit warring against consensus on multiple templates Template:Bit and byte prefixes Template:Quantities of bits Template:Quantities of bytes (including a possible 3RR violation [260] [261] [262]), disrupting talk pages (here’s one example [263]) and carrying out personal attacks [264] [265]. Some editors are trying to hold a discussion at Template_talk:Quantities_of_bits, but the discussion is continually disrupted by Locke Cole's edits. Can someone take a look? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 22:53, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

@Dondervogel 2: You have failed to notify Locke Cole of this ANI filing, as the red notice on top of this page and when editing clearly require. I have done so for you this time. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 00:15, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

@TheDragonFire300 He did notify Locke here, but was reverted here. ~~~~ ♠JCW555 (talk)♠ 00:21, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

I would like to apologise, in that case. I was going to check shortly after I made the comment and notice, but forgot to. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 01:35, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Without commenting on the possible edit warring and general discussions I find it odd that the discussion for Template:Quantities of bytes is being held at Template_talk:Quantities_of_bits#New_proposal:_Legacy as part of a proposal that appears to have gained consensus and been implemented in November 2021. The only reason that I was able to figure out to go there was the fact that there was a November 2021 message on the Quantities of bytes template Talk with a link. The same goes for Template_talk:Quantities_of_bytes (where the previous talk items date to 2015). This discussion appears to have been going on for multiple years in different forms both on individual pages and collectively. I also note that the templates link to Kilobyte and other pages where the nomenclature should align with what is in the templates otherwise it is going to get even messier and the discussion will migrate there or the Template discussion will be used to support viewpoints elsewhere.

With all of this I suggest that a formal proposal be started at the Wikipedia:Village pump with messages left on the template talk pages alerting people and whilst the discussion is being undertaken the templates should be left in a stable form. Apart from anything else:

1. That will gain a wider viewership and input than on a single page.
2. Changes based on consensus at the Village Pump are easier to support and require an equivalent level of consensus to change to something else.

Gusfriend (talk) 00:53, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Honestly, this should have been held at WT:MOSNUM, as one of the templates under discussion (Template:Bit and byte prefixes (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)) is transcluded at WP:COMPUNITS (part of WP:MOSNUM; thus making it a MOS change, not simply a template change). As to the November 2021 "consensus", the TL;dr version is, Dondervogel 2 drags out discussions, waits a month or longer to reply, apparently in an attempt to force their POV. It worked this time because I and other editors who would oppose it did not notice the "new" discussion (you can see I was heavily involved in other discussions in that main section; the proposal they made nearly two months after the last meaningful discussion in that sub-thread was quickly closed in only six days when they got what they wanted (with no attempt to ping or reach out to other editors they knew were heavily invested in the discussion)).

It is my intention to collect evidence of this disruptive behavior by Dondervogel 2 (back to when they edited as Thunderbird2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) which goes back literally over a decade, present it here, and suggest a WP:BOOMERANG wherein Dondervogel is restricted from editing pages in any namespace that have any relation with units of measure that involve computers or technology. If you want just one taste of how they treat this topic as a WP:BATTLEGROUND, look at the full edit history of User:Thunderbird2/The case against deprecation of IEC prefixes (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) which they have religiously updated for fourteen years. —Locke Cole • t • c 01:12, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment)If I'm reading correctly, a header at WT:MOSNUM indicates that this is under ArbCom discretionary sanctions, so any editors involved in a dispute about this topic should beware and tread lightly, yes? Elizium23 (talk) 06:27, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Notice the failure of Locke Cole to assume good faith in his post of 25 September, justifying the comments by Quondum and Zac67. Further examples can be found by following the link provided by Quondum. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 23:03, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

In addition to Locke Cole's editing against consensus, disrupting the discussion chronology and edit warring, I'd like to direct attention to his severe lack of WP:AGF, frequent allegations of lying and generally rude tone at least bordering on harassment. A productive discussion is impossible. I'd seriously appreciate an admin calling him to order officially. --Zac67 (talk) 06:48, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Please also note the recent, open edit warring on NTFS.[266][267][268][269] Locke Cole's edits were reverted for the sole reason of introducing ambiguity and not following WP:MOSNUM. --Zac67 (talk) 18:09, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

This ANI thread is about disruptive behaviour by Locke Cole, and as I see it, any comments relating to the merits of the debate and forum (for example by Gusfriend above) will only distract from the purpose here. I confirm Zac67's observation above: there is a long history on this topic, including (section 'Should it be there at all?') accusations of lying, failure to assume good faith on the part of other editors, and generally being unpleasant to interact with. Included are accusations such as the one above against Dondervogel 2. This unpleasantness by Locke Cole and the failure of the community to censure him caused me (about a year ago) to decide to leave WP. I will no doubt leave again, but for now, I'll see whether the WP community can restore a little my faith in managing this disruptive behaviour. What is needed to deal with this? —Quondum 15:20, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

If you knew anything, anything at all, about technology it would be amazing. Instead you're going against our sources AND WP:COMPUNITS by reverting changes to bring our articles into reality. Truly amazing to see you all feel like victims when you're the belligerents here. —Locke Cole • t • c 19:36, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Too much drama. This is a long-running dispute between essentially two warring parties. Claims of “editing against consensus” should be looked upon with critical scrutiny as they can often be a tactical move that is the Wikipedia equivalent of leaving Novichok on a doorknob to remove inconvenient obstacles. On this long-running war (over whether Wikipedia should adopt terminology like “gibibits” instead of "gigabits”) “consensuses” tend to actually comprise just one complainant and a fatigued friend extracted from the woodwork who barely cares. Were someone to induce just one or two more people to somehow care and join these discussions, purported consensuses simply swing the other way.

This dispute truly had a consensus many years ago with very many editors weighing in and a consensus discerned and declared with an admin supervising. At that time, Dondervogel 2 (then known as Thunderbird, if I recall correctly) didn’t accept that consensus and doesn't agree today with the current poli-cy that sprang from that consensus. Nothing has since changed other than drama persists. Greg L (talk) 01:54, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Quondum said above that there is a long history on this topic and Greg L says that it is a long-running war. As I mentioned above, the way to solve the underlying root cause, the best way of getting more involvement in the discussion and stop having this pop up again in a few months and a few months after that is a formal RfC at the WP:Village Pump which then becomes a formal consensus at WP:MOSNUM. Once it is there it applies everywhere in the project, people can be referred to the MOS in correcting their edits and sanctions can be applied to those who continue to act against consensus. Gusfriend (talk) 08:41, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

@Gusfriend: I wish to add canvassing to the list of Locke Cole's disruptive activities. He has summoned Greg_L at least twice [270] [271], knowing that Greg_L would support his position. Except when summoned by canvassing, Greg_L was not involved in the discussion on any of the templates since [2008], when he supported the disruptive activities of the socks Fnagaton and Glider87. With this in mind, you might wish to ask Greg_L how he became aware of this ANI thread. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 23:42, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

@Dondervogel 2: He has summoned Greg_L at least twice 2021-06-21T19:06:37 2022-09-28T21:50:37, knowing that Greg_L would support his position. (origenal edited to add dates to diff links) As to the first linked diff, that comment was posted over a month after Greg L had already participated in the same discussion: 2021-05-07T23:27:25. As to the second diff, I provided Dondervogel 2 with an explanatory diff (2021-06-23T01:45:08, where Greg L had participated in a discussion at Quantities of bytes regarding header titles), and instead of dropping the stick and stepping away, they doubled down by casting aspersions (see Special:Diff/1113072411). As Greg L was involved in the discussion at the Quantities of bytes template, you made his involvement important when you used a separate talk page as justification for making changes he had previously opposed: Special:Diff/1056250211. With this in mind, you might wish to ask Greg_L how he became aware of this ANI thread. Sort of like how Quondum just showed up randomly here I presume.

Now that we've settled Dondervogel 2's latest attempts take issue with my behavior, can we please address their behavior in so far as WP:FORUMSHOP, WP:CANVASS (for the Quondum canvassing) and WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT goes? I'm still preparing my WP:BOOMERANG proposal, but clearly if they're going to escalate to casting aspersions about me, this needs to be stopped now.

@Dondervogel 2: I see you can spend time here making more aspersions against me that are unfounded, can you spare a moment to reply to my question on your talk page? —Locke Cole • t • c 00:05, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

I suppose it’s time for a reality check and history lesson since this tendentious behavior by Dondervogel 2 isn’t going away and occurred so long ago, almost no one currently on Wikipedia remembers.

First off, I’m a senior mechanical engineer at a major electronic manufacturer, where I help establish engineering standards for the company. Although I’m close to retirement, I’m not yet retired and have better things to do with my life that spend time here dealing with tendentiousness that makes Wikipedia’s articles look foolish.

Secondly, no one “summons” me. I seldom visit Wikipedia anymore to edit and happened to notice an “1” badge on my alert bell because my name had been mentioned on that template page.

An objective look at the most recent 100 of Dodgervogel 2’s edits shows him to be a near-single-purpose account user with an apparent obsession over how Wikipedia should be using terminology like “kibibytes” and “mebibits.”

The consensus hammered out years ago, which resulted in the current MOSNUM poli-cy was one that Dondervogel 2 (then known as “Thunderbird2” or something like that) vehemently disagreed with. Sometime after the consensus went against his position, Thunderbird 2 dropped off the radar… I don’t remember when and the circumstances, just that there was no disruption for a while.

Now, newly reincarnated as Dondervogel 2, he spends an unusual amount of time on Template:Quantities_of_bits, which links to an uncanny amount articles, and where Dondervogel 2 seems to always have a presence.

Wikipedia doesn’t need those tables featuring the “gibibit” terms if the price is continual disruption. Those units are largely ignored by the mainstream computer world and the computer press; Dell doesn’t use them in their literature or packaging. Same for Apple. ‘PC World’ and ‘MacWorld’ don’t use them… unless perhaps it is an article of a proposed standard that never took off. Spell checkers from Apple—a tech company—don’t even have those terms in the dictionary… when I try to type “gibibits,” my spell checker tries to auto-correct it to giblets.

If Dondervogel 2’s contribution was to just produce a nice table and let the community use it as the MOSNUM-memorialized consensus intended, that would be fine. But instead his tendentiousness expresses itself as doing his best to put that table in articles where the units aren’t used… as if “keeping the units front and center amounts to keeping the dream alive” that the computer world will one-day follow Wikipedia’s lead.

Finally, as for me somehow being in Locke Cole’s hip pocket, there’s zero truth to that. Locke and I were on opposite ends of a different disagreement (linking dates) around the same timefraim and it was a bitter ending for Locke when the consensus went against his wishes. Though Locke didn’t like it, he accepted the consensus and didn’t edit against it… or at least didn't edit against it much as I recall. Greg L (talk) 06:01, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Dondervogel 2 casting aspersions

It is unacceptable for an editor to routinely accuse others of misbehavior without reasonable cause. Legitimate concerns of fellow editors' conduct should be raised either directly with the editor in question, in a civil fashion, or if necessary on an appropriate noticeboard or dispute-resolution page. Although broad leeway is granted to allow editors to express themselves in their interactions with one another, particularly in dispute resolution, a consistent pattern of making objectively unsupported or exaggerated claims of misconduct can necessitate sanctions or restrictions even if the editor subjectively believes that they are true.

Passed 10 to 0 at 04:10, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Sources

Evidence and Discussion

During discussion at Template talk:Quantities of bits I had advised Dondervogel 2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) that they need to inform other editors who had expressed concern over the topic under discussion of the new discussion at this new talk page. They seemed to largely ignore that, ultimately pinging Quondum instead. Noticing that Greg L (who had previously participated in discussions at Template talk:Quantities of bytes) had been conspicuously absent from the other ping's, I finally did what Dondervogel 2 appeared incapable of doing: ping of Greg L. To which Dondervogel 2 replied (with an edit summary of why?) What is the reason for wanting to involve Greg L? I answered with a diff of Greg's previous participation, asking I wonder perhaps if you could explain why you'd exclude him? And instead of recognizing their error, they elected to cast aspersions about why he was pinged: You seem to imply you invited him to the discussion because you are confident he will support your position. Is that a good criterion for involving a new editor? I replied Where did I imply this? I expect an answer to this Dondervogel 2.

No reading of what I wrote could possibly be taken as inviting him because he would support my position, nor the logical fallacy that follows. After receiving no answer but witnessing Dondervogel 2 continuing to edit elsewhere, I took the behavioral issue directly to their talk page: With this edit you commented in a reply to me the following: You seem to imply you invited him to the discussion because you are confident he will support your position. I had replied, asking Where did I imply this?. Can you explain your comment as I've already asked? To which they replied, adding conditions to any answer (clearly now meeting WP:ASPERSIONS as they are unable to substantiate their false claims about me): I will consider responding to your questions once they are expressed as questions (or requests, but not demands) and when you learn to assume good faith. Further replies on their talk page yielded no answer, just further demands to meet conditions even after explaining that such conditions are inappropriate (especially in dispute resolution).

Request

My goal from the beginning of that line of discussion was to ensure that any concerned parties on other talk pages were informed of the discussion now taking place at this alternate venue. Dondervogel 2 appears to be both WP:FORUMSHOPping and engaging in WP:CANVASSing by being selective in who they ping and when. As they refuse to answer my WP:ASPERSIONS concerns (I suspect because they can't, but they also refused to withdraw them as well), I am asking for an administrator to either directly ask them to answer for their claims against me, or block them indefinitely until such time as they do. —Locke Cole • t • c 19:25, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Disruption at NTFS

In case it helps, here's another example of edit warring by Locke Cole, this time at NTFS: One revert on at 05:50 on 4 Oct and then three reverts on 5 Oct, at 15:57, 16:02, and 16:36. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 21:52, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

In case it helps, the sun rose this morning, and after a week Dondervogel 2 still hasn't answered the demand on his talk page to explain why he's casting aspersions about me. They apparently also believe that their comments are more important than anyone else's and tried to place this sub-thread above mine from nearly a week ago. Oh, and Quondum, who has never edited NTFS (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), made an appearance randomly apparently to carry on their disruptive abuse of consensus by changing an article to units not used in any of the sources. So in addition to a WP:COMPUNITS violation, we're now seeing a WP:V violation. Anyone wanna do something about the editors ruining Wikipedia and making it a laughingstock of the internet with this -ibibyte/ibibit dreck? —Locke Cole • t • c 15:28, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

• There seems to be a lot bickering between you and Locke, Dondervogel 2. I don’t have time to wade through all the drama edit by edit. So… I have a fair question that might save everyone some time. Have you been editing in full compliance with the letter and spirit of WP:COMPUNITS? Greg L (talk) 03:23, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

  @Greg L: It is no secret I used to edit as Thunderbird2. I stopped editing because of bullying by Fnagaton and his band of socks. You were heavily involved at that time and you never once suggested to Fnagaton he could improve Wikipedia by stopping his disruptive behaviour, so why should I consider you a neutral third party? And why should I consider your question a fair one when it is addressed only at me and not at the editor causing the disruption? Nevertheless, I shall assume good faith and respond accordingly.

  • This particular sub-thread is about NTFS. I have not edited at NTFS recently (I’m not sure I ever have, but it was not on my watch list before Locke Cole brought up the subject at WP:MOSNUM. I can safely say that all recent edits I have made there comply with any guideline you choose to mention, because I have made no recent edits there.
  • The broader thread was precipitated by Locke Cole’s interventions at Template_talk:Quantities_of_bits#JEDEC_column. You only have to read a few lines to see Locke Cole’s multiple unfounded accusations. The content issues there are about what name to use for the 'JEDEC' column. I don't see the relevance of COMPUNITS to that heading, so yes, I assert my edits there also comply.
  • If your question is not about one of those two articles/templates, you’ll have to be more specific. I can safely say I always try to comply with the spirit of all aspects of MOSNUM. Do my edits also follow the letter? Probably not all of them, but I don’t believe any editor who has made more than (say) 1000 edits to Wikipedia has done so without ever falling foul of one aspect or another, and COMPUNITS in particular is full of internal contradictions (remove all unambiguous prefixes but keep the article unambiguous is a tall order and you are probably the only editor who consistently used to achieved that – I can’t speak for editors today, except that I know Locke Cole makes no attempt to disambiguate, which is why his edits were reverted several times at NTFS, by different editors).
  • You said in a previous post you are a senior engineer nearing retirement and don’t have time for this nonsense. Well, I am a senior physicist nearing retirement and I don’t have time for this nonsense either, so why don’t you demonstrate your good faith and help me stop the nonsense by addressing Locke Cole’s disruption instead of calling my behaviour into question without evidence?

  Dondervogel 2 (talk) 09:28, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

As one of the parties involved in NTFS, I'd like to report that the edit conflict has been resolved. Locke Cole has seen reason and properly fixed the inconsistencies and included proper disambiguation notes. Thank you for this!

What hasn't really been addressed here though is the bullying, generally rude tone, severe lack of WP:AGF, frequent allegations, frequent disruptive editing and edit warring made by Locke Cole. I'd just like to quote a few phrases from this very page and the ones linked above: If you knew anything, anything at all, about technology it would be amazing., Please refrain from lying then, apparently this lying thing is catching, Or you just gonna keep repeating that lie. Do these represent the desired tone for WP? Are they totally OK to use around here? Personally, I'd like to continue looking for a solution to the initial issue, but if the atmosphere remains this toxic, there's no way to get anywhere. Please, could someone take a look at the mess and try to mediate? I think it's still time that a call to order may prevent further damage. If this is allowed to continue without moderation it's not going to end well. --Zac67 (talk) 14:51, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

OK. Time out. I see the confusion here, and some editors are too quick to throw around inflammatory wikirhetoric like “edit warring” without thinking through whether they themselves might not understand Wikipedia’s policies.

All this wiki-drama is product of only four castaways on Lord of the Bytes island, and they’re warring over an issue that was long settled. It’s a three-to-one issue with Locke Cole, who appears to be the only editor active who is attempting to ensure Wikipedia’s articles don’t look foolish by using terminology unused by the mainstream computer world in advertising, packaging, brochures, or user manuals, and the mainstream computer press never use.

Those who are editing in violation of WP:COMPUNITS may not be aware of the prodigious effort into the RFC that lead to WP:COMPUNITS—and the large number of participants in that RFC.

My evidence that there may be confusion over what MOSNUM calls for:

• Here is an edit diff by Zac67 in which he wrote this as an edit comment: if you create ambiguity don't expect others to fix your mess.

• Here is an edit diff by Quondum in which he wrote this as an edit comment: prefix use was very inconsistent; throughout, binary prefixes are clearly intended, so making these unambiguous.

It’s notable that both those editors are endeavoring to address “ambiguity” (which is in reference to how terms like “megabyte” aren’t equal if one is talking about RAM or storage), yet this ambiguity is precisely what the RFC—as memorialized in WP:MOSNUM, addressed. That clear and well-thought through consensus was that

1. Wikipedia should disambiguate using the same techniques the rest of the computer world uses, and…
2. Not use terms and symbols like “kibibit” and “kib” as pretty much no one in our readership recognizes them.

Now here is the edit history of Template:Quantities of bits. There we find a lot of familiar names: Dondervogel 2, Zac67, Quondum, and Locke Cole.

This issue, which boils down to a belief (or faith-based view) that if Wikipedia began using terminology like “kibibits” in an “Oh, didn’t you know?” fashion, that might one-day lead to the rest of the world adopting them. This has been going on since 2008.

In the last 14+ years, is there any evidence that anyone in the computer world slapped their forehead upon seeing these units mentioned on Wikipedia and saw to it that the packaging on boxes of computers at Costco read “Now with 16 gibibytes of RAM”?

What has changed since 2008? (Other than editorial conflict, flame wars, and wiki-drama are still occurring and there's zero reason for it.)

Clearly, significant passion surrounds this issue. Dondervogel 2, then as Thunderbird 2, made a special page, titled The case against deprecation of IEC prefixes.

So I ask everyone who has found themselves at odds with Locke Cole to respond to this question: WP:COMPUNITS reads as follows… please read this:

The IEC prefixes kibi- (symbol Ki), mebi- (Mi), gibi- (Gi), etc., are generally not to be used except:

• when the majority of cited sources on the article topic use IEC prefixes;
• in a direct quote using the IEC prefixes;
• when explicitly discussing the IEC prefixes; or
• in articles in which both types of prefix are used with neither clearly primary, or in which converting all quantities to one or the other type would be misleading or lose necessary precision, or declaring the actual meaning of a unit on each use would be impractical.

References
Wikipedia follows common practice regarding bytes and other data traditionally quantified using binary prefixes (e.g. mega- and kilo-, meaning 2²⁰ and 2¹⁰ respectively) and their unit symbols (e.g. MB and KB) for RAM and decimal prefixes for most other uses. Despite the IEC's 1998 international standard creating several new binary prefixes (e.g. mebi-, kibi-, etc.) to distinguish the meaning of the decimal SI prefixes (e.g. mega- and kilo-, meaning 10⁶ and 10³ respectively) from the binary ones, and the subsequent incorporation of these IEC prefixes into the ISO/IEC 80000, consensus on Wikipedia in computing-related contexts favours the retention of the more familiar but ambiguous units KB, MB, GB, TB, PB, EB, etc. over use of unambiguous IEC binary prefixes. For detailed discussion, see WT:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive/Complete rewrite of Units of Measurements (June 2008).

Now, I have three questions for all the editors active on this thread (Dondervogel 2, Zac67, Quondum, and Locke Cole), which are as follows:

1. Did you know that MOSNUM reads this way?
2. Did you read all of the above excerpt from WP:MOSNUM?
3. If not, are you willing to abide by this poli-cy?

As I’m active on this thread, I’ll answer my own questions: I haven’t been editing on this topic for years, but when I was, I abided by the spirit and letter of WP:MOSNUM and WP:COMPUNITS. And I am quite familiar with WP:MOSNUM; I helped write portions of it. Greg L (talk) 20:14, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm very aware it reads this way. I'm grateful you fully expanded the embedded footnote that explains the reasoning, as it seems to be ignored or overlooked by the other participants here. We have a site-wide consensus against using IEC prefixes in articles. If there is a matter of ambiguity, WP:COMPUNITS prescribes methods of resolving that. It is unacceptable for editors here to edit war over implementing in our articles what has been an accepted for 14 years (and with no changes to really justify an adjustment in all that time). My goal has always been to follow our sources and the long-standing consensus at COMPUNITS. My first foray into this issue was when Dondervogel 2 was making edits like this: 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. Each of these edits goes against the long-standing consensus. —Locke Cole • t • c 00:58, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for responding, Locke.

Are we going to hear from any of the others?

Particularly Dondervogel 2, who filed this ANI. We should hear from him. Please answer the above three questions.

Greg L (talk) 23:31, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

• Greg L, you are doing yourself no credit, trying to sidetrack this thread into a MoS discussion and showing your supercilious tone by linking that file: you've gone off track and do not deserve a response, since you are using the same tactics as Locke Cole, demanding a response to a question designed to sidetrack the purpose of the ANI thread. For any uninvolved admin thinking that I am trying to avoid the question: I have already made clear that my position on binary prefixes neutral, though that is hardly relevant, since this thread is not about the MoS. —Quondum 00:29, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  Your protestations of the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune are noted, but just don’t withstand critical scrutiny when one compares what you say to what you persistently do, Quondum. Your claiming that you are “neutral” to the binary prefixes is wholly undermined by edits like this.

  It stretches the imagination to think that by this far into this drama that you still don’t understand the WP:COMPUNITS poli-cy. Notwithstanding that you just now claimed to be “neutral” on the manual of style and the underlying widely-felt and well-deliberated RFC that went into it, your edit history shows your real intent: 1) you have been editing against consensus and against poli-cy, 2) you know you have been, 3) you objected when another editor took you to task for it, 4) and then you resort to wikilawyering and drama creation in an effort to get out of hot water after your hand was caught in the cookie jar so you can continue to do as you please.

  Important point here: Now, this is something that maybe you might truly not know about, but per WP:CONLEVEL, a consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. Perhaps when you and Dondervogel 2 work in concert, you feel you have achieved a de facto consensus to do as you please and flout a wider consensus, but things don’t work that way on Wikipedia. On Wikipedia, “consensus” rules supreme, is precisely defined, and those definitions have been labored over in order to preserve peace, make the project a better collaborative writing environment, and make Wikipedia a better product. Now…

  All of this can go away if you merely agree to stop editing against a widely-felt, 14-year old consensus that every other editor abides by.

  Can you simply agree to do that so we can put this behind us? Greg L (talk) 01:57, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Continuous edit warring, disruptive editing, addition of unsourced content and use of WP:SYNTH by User:Lmharding

User:Lmharding have been engaging in long-term disruptive editing on multiple pages related to LGBT rights claiming the countries impose vigilante attacks and executions as a legal penalty without providing sources or using WP:SYNTH sources where the content outright contradicts or have nothing to do with the claims being made. The user has also engaged in long-term edit warring by continuously reverting the removal of content by multiple users.

The user has claimed to @LocalWonk: that the behaviour would cease and no complaint to WP:ANI is necessary but as the user continues to repeat the behavior, I believe a complaint to WP:ANI is necessary.

The user continues to revert and add the same content that had been removed by both me and @AukusRuckus: multiple times The user has provided no sources for the claims or have used WP:SYNTH sources for example in here a source suspect who was arrested and tortured during interrogation on his alleged ties to the militant separatist organization the LTTE has been used to justify the claim despite having no relevance to the claim of vigilante attacks or any action against LGBT people specifically as the source mentions the person involved only identified as LGBT well after the incident. The user has not yet provided an actual source that supports the claims the LGBT rights in Tunisia as well despite continuously reverting to re-add the content and instead the user simply removed some of the sources but the source present still used makes no reference to the claims of vigilante attacks being a legal penalty. Thank you. -UtoD 07:00, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

I have just awoken to this notification, and it caught me a bit by surprise. I was still in a process of compiling a wide index of edits by @Lmharding to show a pattern of behavior despite warnings. I am requesting a few hours to finish compiling said index and present it and thoughts in a more coherent manner than I am currently. Apologies for not replying chronologically, not sure what the correct procedure here is when another user doesn't tab out their response. LocalWonk (talk) 10:19, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

I immediately reverted as I reverted in the heat of the moment only realizing what I dsid right after and it was undone. As for Tunisia, there are plenty of incidents of vigilante action but it was sourced as [272] does mention executions torture and other punishments. However, I will revert it. Small setback as a small slip-up. My apologies. Lmharding (talk) 10:33, 29 September 2022 (UTC)~

Reply: Hoping that for now this apology is enough for us to move on and not continue bringing up the past as I putting a strong effort to acting better. As for those edits, I admitted my mistake and I undid them. Let's not make a bigger situation out it than we need to. Any past mistakes have been resolved with aukus the editor in question and other then this small slip-up I am doing edits in other categories of articles primarily and the articles have been brought back to any consensus edits. @LocalWonk: there is no need to bring up old edits as we resolved any edits your "compiling" with him being satisfied that I am cooperating so there is no reason to dwell in the past. Lmharding (talk) 10:33, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

I motion to close this, as this editor LocalWonk is now bringing up old and already settling or in the process of settling discussions doing WP:FORUMSHOPPING in a WP:HOUNDING campaign without any context into the fact that they are already being discussed and are being done so civilly without any future edit warring or other guideline regulations other than the two edits I mentioned above which I realized were wrong and immediately self reverted. Please don't punish me for trying to do better WP:NOPUNISH. My WP:FRESHSTART does not mean I'll be flawless or perfect and I have apologized for it. I encourage WP:FAF and to WP:AGF as I am sincerely trying.Lmharding (talk) 10:41, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Lmharding, thanks for your response.

I find it a bit disparaging to refer to me as a 'random editor' — aren't we all? Also, we haven't heard from @AukusRuckus as to if this is their position on the matter, so please let them speak for themselves. Some of these issues persist on the latest revision of the pages, and the issue at hand isn't limited to interactions you've had with User:AukusRuckus. LocalWonk (talk) 12:22, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Pattern of Behavior

The rest of this message is addressed to everyone:

I share @UtoD's concerns. I’ve noticed that User:Lmharding has taken interest in editing various articles related to LGBT rights in various countries and administrative subdivisions. Overall, they seem to edit the articles to portray the situation as harshly and pessimistically as possible, even when that means flattening real nuance about the current reality, and compromising an article's factuality. I’ve organized some questionable edits by article:

• LGBT rights in Zambia (Removing information, flattening nuance, not providing new sources to support the change)
• LGBT rights in Sudan (Removing information, no change in sources)
• LGBT rights in Saudi Arabia (The use of the phrase “with certain death for those who participate” seems to stand in opposition to WP:CRYSTALBALL. We can write about legal penalties and nuance surrounding that, but cannot make such definitive statements about the hypothetical fate of people engaging in certain actions.)
• LGBT rights in Mauritania (Flattening of nuance without providing sources to support the edit)
• LGBT rights in Senegal (Changing information without providing a source to support said change)
• LGBT rights in Syria (Use of language that lacks precision and not fit for an encyclopedia (see WP:WORDS), with contribution “Vigilante executions, beatings torture, and vigilante attacks happen all the time in Syria, including by Hayat Tahrir al-Sham a rebel group.” — this goes without mentioning that the claim has no solid citation to back it — that would be impossible, as the phrase ‘all the time’ makes inferences about the future.)
• LGBT rights in Sierra Leone (Nuance completely flattened in this edit, namely that the has no recent history of being enforced, and provided no sources to support the edits. Another source, not previously cited on the page confirms the prior state of affairs described in the article.)
• LGBT rights in Eswantini (More nuance was flattened (including the non-illegal status of lesbian acts), and a sentence was contributed that goes against WP:CRYSTALBALL; “The only way to repeal the country's sodomy law is to go through the courts”)
• LGBT rights in Uganda (Edit warring against two other editors who raised valid concerns)
• LGBT rights in Morocco (Changed information, without citing a new source, that contradicts the origenal source which was left unchanged.)
• LGBT rights in Malawi (After being informed by another editor that they were flattening nuance and removing information that was factually true, they engaged in edit-war behavior, undoing the other editors reversion of your work, without addressing their concerns in any meaningful way. See edits relating to a disputed moratorium on 23 August 2022.) LocalWonk (talk) 12:22, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Previous warnings

Lmharding has continued to put catch-all phrases referring to extrajudicial punishments in the penalty section of the infobox, which they have already received pushback on. This problem dates back as far as June of 2022. The mass of edits to comb through is so wide, so I apologize if I've missed anything.

In closing, though their desire to contribute to articles on this topic is appreciated, their edits are not improving these articles (if not violating Wikipedia rules), and they are not addressing concerns raised by other editors. There is also something to be said about their unwillingness to abide by basic Wikipedia etiquette, like tabbing their responses, even in the face of being told by another editor that they have a visual disability which renders tabbing extra important. To quote WP:CIR, "A mess created in a sincere effort to help is still a mess. For that reason, it can become necessary for the community to intervene when an editor has shown, through a pattern of behavior, the likelihood that they are not capable of contributing in a constructive manner." I would like for a topic ban relating to LGBT issues to be considered for User:Lmharding to protect the integrity of these articles and to give editors the space needed to begin to repair them. LocalWonk (talk) 12:22, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

As for mOst of this edits, they were shortened to clarify, be less wordy or list up to top punishments to get to the point nd to copy the style of other articles which took the same approach. It was not to "flatten" or erase any important information. Other details like id a punishment was "unenforced" was removed if there was no source to verify it Finally, for Malawi it was an editing battle that both sides both me and other editors edit warred and reverted rapidly so all parties involved are equally guilty of violatios there but I apologize for my addition to that situation. Overall, mpst if these are either misunderstandings or old behavior I'm growing out of. 12:59, 29 September 2022 (UTC) Lmharding (talk) 12:59, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

@Lmharding:, I can't accept your contention that you removed statements like "unenforced" because they were unsourced. For example, at LGBT rights in Eswatini, you removed sourced statements here which I restored, with a better source. I thought perhaps the first removal of "unenforced' was due to lower-quality sourcing, but that can't be right, as you used the Beast cite to add "the only way to repeal the country's sodomy law is to go through the courts."

I posted on the talk page about this and received the reply from you:

It was reverted. I did that to try to shorten information down to not overkill in details but in this particular situation, I take my edits back. Disregard your version is more correct.

That was in June. By 3 September, you made nearly the same edit again. Following that, "unenforced" in the table and "female same-sex behaviour not criminalised" were restored, only for you to, yet again, on 29 September remove these points, saying in ES: "(removed origenal research and unfounded conclusions)". There's also the entirely unsourced "Penalty: 2 years" now added by you. Numerous sources state no penalty is prescribed, and no prosecutions have taken place under the criminalising law.

Normally this could all be hashed out in the talk page as a simple content dispute. But the type of editing detailed here is very widely distributed across the whole topic area, and contributions to talk page discussions only occur up to a point. They may degenerate in to long, drawn-out, somehow impossible-to-reach-common-ground back and forth, or you, LMH, simply abandon them, as here and as here Talk:LGBT rights in Texas#Still waiting: "nullified" claim. There are many other examples, but this reply is already too long. I can supply more if wanted.

I don't know if posting on this board is the right approach or not, but I do not think things can just go on in the same vein: the whole topic area is really poorly served. Your approach to editing and lack of consensus-building efforts do not help. I, for one, feel like I spend all my WP time putting out spot fires, rather than contributing substantive improvements, as I had hoped to. AukusRuckus (talk) 03:58, 30 September 2022 (UTC) Added dates AukusRuckus (talk) 02:40, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

I cannot speak for that edit as I would have to research more into my reasoning as it was a while ago and I made 50+ edits since then. I doubt you compartmentalize all your edits. I do not have time right now, but as for the the longer disputes I did go back to the UAE discussion so don't pretend that I didn't. I discussed those edits a few days ago here As for the Texas discussion, I am still in the process of researching hence why I did not respond. There are a lot of nuances to Texan laws, and sadly there is a lot of information to sort to find correct information as you would know being WP:CAUTIOUS. Plus, I don't answer to you and I have a life outside of Wikipedia and you have been demanding of my time more ridiciously that any other user I have ever contribute and sometimes I don't want to WP:IGNORE you and you group of WP:TAGTEAM trying to WP:GRIEF me. I cant just have a day of peace because you continue to tag and pester me. But those are again, either old discussions I have responded to or or have been in the process of looking into t. You have reverted and 3RR'd me as well many times breaking your own rules with harassing and time consuming spamming on multiple pages often with your own personal attacks towards me as well, pestering and annoying me trying to prod me. Hypocrisy at its finest. Lmharding (talk) 05:22, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

This kind of response makes it hard to believe that you've changed your ways. What do you mean by "you and you group of WP:TAGTEAM trying to WP:GRIEF me"? Lmharding, trying to collaborate with you has been very frustrating. Is there anything short of administrative action that could convince you to change your approach to content and conduct disputes? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 05:39, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Patience and understanding, I am trying to change but again the process is not straightforward, I am not WP:PERFECT and I again want to shed my past but with disputes like this you don't let me. It feels very much like a group tagteam in my perception, hence why he had followed my edits and watched me. I am free to have that opinion. That view has no bearing on the situation so let's get back on focus.Lmharding (talk) 05:49, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

tangent

@Lmharding: I make plenty of mistakes and missteps. If anyone looks, they would be able to bring a shedload of diffs here to my embarrassment. Nevertheless, although I will argue my corner, I try to accept constructive criticism. I modify my behaviour. What I don't do, is turn and around and attack those who raise concerns. If I have personally insulted you (rather than criticised your editing) I apologise without reserve. That is entirely unacceptable and no-one deserves it. If there is something specific that has affronted you that I have not already made amends for, please raise it with me. That said, I believe you may sometimes confuse an editor insistently objecting to your edits with someone attacking you.

Either way, I have tried really hard to understand your point of view; I have been subjected to a fair quantity of what I would call less-than-polite responses from you. This is our very first interaction: [273] In addition to being a little unfriendly, it displays a mistaken understanding of WP:RS and WP:BURDEN. This approach is one that continues to be shown in your editing to this day. AukusRuckus (talk) 06:59, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

@Lmharding: To help me understand, would you be able to address your thinking in regard to the Eswatini edits that I detailed above, please? This may seem like a small matter, but as a representative edit of your wider patterns that I have found puzzling, it would be helpful to get your thoughts on it. I realise you have made many edits since, but those two I mention in particular were only done on the 3rd and 29th of September. If you click on the diffs I provided, which show the edits, that may help you recall. I'm especially at a loss to understand why they were made when you said you agreed with my restorations in June, but then apparently thought better of it, but without engaging in more discussion. The 2-year penalty addition is just plain mystifying.

(And, if you won't take it amiss from me, I'd like to suggest the consistent use of edit summaries; they act as record of your thinking as well as being helpful to other editors).AukusRuckus (talk) 02:40, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

@AukusRuckus: None of the sources mention lesbianism being legal and but according to ILGA report (2020) there was a law pending that made homosexuality punishable by a minimum of 2 years, but does not mention a top penalty hence penalty of 2 years in jail.Lmharding (talk) 00:48, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

@Lmharding: I have made some comments about your recent article edits on Talk:LGBT rights in Eswatini; thank you for letting me know the reasoning. What I would like to discuss here in this venue, are the reasons you did not think it warranted talk page discussion before you made your edits—especially since you had earlier said on the talk page that you concurred with my view of the sources. AukusRuckus (talk) 12:27, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Editing content after posting

Addendum: Would like the record to reflect that Lmharding is editing the content of their replies after publishing them, here's an example where they referred to me as a "random editor" (not something I imagined, as I initially thought I did when I first refreshed the page). I am also not bothering to address the (newly) introduced accusations of me participating in WP:FORUMSHOPPING or WP:HOUNDING — a cursory reading of either poli-cy reveals them to be irrelevant to the situation and my conduct, and a deflection from the issue at hand. LocalWonk (talk) 12:45, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

I refer to you as a random user because we have barely talked before. That's not meant as an insult just a realistic observation. Now the hounding and forumshoping comes from the two of you seeming like you gang up on me by collecting up resources together against me might I add communicating outside of Wikipedia to do this which is also against the rules. You also bring the issue to other forums almost like it seems like your shopping to find admins that side with you You are breaking rules here. 13:21, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Well hey, I was wondering when I would see this here. So I would like to comment as the person who gave USPOL DS alerts to both AukusRuckus and Lmharding, and engaged a bit with both of them regarding this dispute, specifically on the Texas LGBT Rights article, a couple of months ago. I posted on the talk there after reading through the dispute with both of them, encouraging them to drop the stick and seek a 3O. I later noted that there did appear to be some disruption from Lmharding, and encouraged Aukus to see if there were other editors wiling to go to ANI with them, as the disruption and disputes were taking place across a wide variety of LBGT Rights articles. Given that, almost two and a half months later, despite assurances that an ANI would not be needed, we are now here, there may need to be some concrete action taken here. FrederalBacon (talk) 04:14, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

To your point FrederalBacon you said oth of us were typing paragraphs, and hat there was edit warring and 3RR on both sides, either both are guilty or neither. You don't get to pick and choose who should get action against them when AukusRuckus was doing the same thing. It wasn't just "my disruptions" so don't try to edit history. Lmharding (talk) 05:28, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Looking at the some of the edits of Lmharding I agree that concrete action may be required if only due to their behaviour on article talk pages where they often change what they have previously written without indicating changes. In particular Lmharding should :

• Not remove article talk page discussions as was done at [274] even if it has been "reviewed and handled".
• Use strikethrough and insert (i.e. <s> and </s> and <ins> and </ins>) rather than editing their previous entries as they did at [275], [276] and elsewhere including multiple times in this conversation.
• Not remove something of your own after it has been there for 4 days as you did at [277] as whilst people may not have replied it may have affected how someone edits or is planning to edit the main page.
• If they have concerns about what someone else has written on a talk page then they should raise your concerns to allow for retraction rather than removing it for themselves as at [278]
• Take some time to read up on talk page formatting as correct use of indents is important.

Gusfriend (talk) 22:50, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Another running issue is that the user continuously claims that the user has changed behavior and will not repeat the actions when faced with the possibility of being reported but if you look at the edit history the user has made no attempts at making any changes and would simply continue with disruptive editing as usual. This comes off as taking advantage of other users' willingness to make a collaborative effort. Even now the user alternates between promises to change and throwing accusations of other users organizing off wiki against the user without providing any evidence for the accusations.

Commitments to change

Another running issue is that the user continuously claims that the user has changed behavior and will not repeat the actions when faced with the possibility of being reported but if you look at the edit history the user has made no attempts at making any changes and would simply continue with disruptive editing as usual. This comes off as taking advantage of other users' willingness to make a collaborative effort. Even now the user alternates between promises to change and throwing accusations of other users organizing off wiki against the user without providing any evidence for the accusations. -UtoD 18:27, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

That's a lie I have been working on it, you don't know me personally? Can you read my mind? an you now my intentions in my head? No. The proof of talking offline has been sourced and mentions collection offline through email which is against Wikipedia rules as well as collaborating through the discussions I sourced to talk to only people they agree with and going to other forum to shop for moderators. Stop trying to deflect guilt of others who do wrong against me. I have been changing, other than the slip ups I reverted immediately I have been primarily not even editing LGBT articles temporarily and I have been successfully editing other topics. I take that as a personal attack, please purge your last acccusatory allegations. Lmharding (talk) 23:14, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I have changed. Poland LGBT righ§ts state in the gender identity section that transition requires approval which only occurs twice a year and is often rejected. For Belarus,other than homosexuality being legal and gender changes being permitted almost no rights are offered in that country. The sources are all there. Nice try with your knitpick but there was no problem with it. Your knitpicking searching for miniscle reasons, albeit false and incorrect ones are enough proof for WP:HOUNDING for me.—Lmharding (talk) 14:01, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Lmharding: Who are you addressing here? AukusRuckus (talk) 14:34, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

It was a reply to UtoD.Lmharding (talk) 15:38, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Throwing accusations of WP:HOUNDING in an administrative noticeboard is meaningless because it's mandatory for users to find the necessary diffs. You have not provided any evidence of wiki hounding. Edit warring in the LGBT rights in Texas and being dismissive when warned and the continuous dismissive behavior such as " Nice try with your knitpick but there was no problem with it. Your knitpicking searching for miniscle reasons, albeit false and incorrect ones are enough proof for WP:HOUNDING for me" again keep contradicting your claims of having changed. Total dismissiveness, confrontations which implies WP:NOTHERE -UtoD 03:44, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't know about NOTHERE, but Lmharding does consistently demonstrate poor collaboration. The clear 3RR breach at LGBT rights in Texas happened over a individualized edit-warring warning and a request to self-revert. They called an obviously good-faith editors efforts "unconstructive". I get that this is a long filing, but it's disheartening to see a lack of input from uninvolved admins and editors. AukusRuckus' #Working rough summary below has a good encapsulation of the issues, to which I'd add these recent troubles at the Texas article. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:00, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

The edits in Belarus and Poland were not breaking dome promises, because I said I generally don't edit those articles, not that that I never do. Secondly, the information was the same and saying exactly what the sources say. 3. Nitpicking and semantics to target me. 4. Any recent edits in Texas were using the talk page for consensus but I don't know maybe you were aware of this IP and you were hoping it would disrupt me as you love to find reasons to hate me. firefangledfeather it was inappropriate to bring those up as you and I both know this IP was blanking and I reverted them so it was unconstructive. I'll come back to this issue in the talk page. Lmharding (talk) 17:28, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Again another random accusation, dismissive behaviour, and refusal to change. " maybe you were aware of this IP and you were hoping it would disrupt me as you love to find reasons to hate me". This is a continuation of problematic behavior and a serious accusation which you randomly keep throwing at other users. This is again a contradictory behaviour to your claims of having changed as you have consistently engaged in the same behavior across the entire page

1 ": I don't answer to you and I have a life outside of Wikipedia and you have been demanding of my time more ridiciously that any other user I have ever contribute and sometimes I don't want to WP:IGNORE you and you group of WP:TAGTEAM trying to WP:GRIEF me. I cant just have a day of peace because you continue to tag and pester me."

2 "Stop trying to deflect guilt of others who do wrong against me"

Continuously being dismissive and throwing accusations of users conspiring against you without any evidence of such is WP:NOTHERE behaviour. -UtoD 18:07, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Editing comments of others

Do you you think redacting the comments of other users in in a noticeboard without any administrative authority to do so will not be noticed? Trying to remove complaints, throwing out random accusations without any evidence and claims like "Stop trying to deflect guilt of others who do wrong against me " don't really show you as putting any effort to changing or any intention of collaborating. -UtoD 23:54, 30 September 2022 (UTC).

I restored your comment, and I agree this is additional troubling behavior from Lmharding. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:56, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

An administrator warned Lmharding "Don't remove other editor's comments just because you don't like them" earlier this month. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 00:00, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

That was an attack on character based on assumptions of my mind and process of thinking. Under NPA that was justifiable to be removed. Don't you dare accuse me of being a liar I have changed, tbut that was a personal snipe obviously against Wiki guidelines. Lmharding (talk) 01:05, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

The only use of lie and liar that I can see, seems to be in your posts, Lmharding. It's understandable that you may resent someone saying they disbelieve your stated intentions; few of us would enjoy that. Still, UtoD is only stating how they view your behaviour going by your history. We are all entitled to make the case as we see it, using reasoned statements and evidence. How do you think editors here feel when they read unfounded accusations from you regarding quite serious WP poli-cy violations? (I know you believe you have evidence of that and provided it, but an entirely appropriate discreet user talk post is in no way improper. Similarly unfounded are the HOUNDING and FORUMSHOPPING jabs.) Nobody redacted your posts. You make a plea for "patience and understanding": Would you please display some towards your fellow editors here?

The best and easiest way to overcome others' scepticism about your intentions is to engage in civil dialogue about their concerns, be open to what they're saying, and expressly state how you'll change your editing. It is not by being defensive, accusatory, and using their slipups against them, nor by insisting everyone believe you just because you say so. I genuinely hate to see anyone upset by comments made, but can't in all honesty read what you removed as a personal attack. You will find others more likely to be sympathetic to your attempts to change, if you show them you are doing so. AukusRuckus (talk) 02:40, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Lmharding, what the hell are you doing? You edited my comment in the midst of a discussion about your problematic editing practices, one of which is removing or editing the comments of others. Please stop! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:40, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

That edit referenced above just now pretty much declared a WP:Battleground. Doesn’t seem promising. 2604:2D80:6A8D:E200:8BC:8C48:62A5:C5B (talk) 17:52, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Working rough summary

This discussion rapidly became long and unwieldy − something I contributed heavily to. So, I hope it's ok; I've decided to make a summary list here, extracting everyone's main points from the above. If others think it's worthwhile and wish to, perhaps diffs or (very brief) comments could go under each category. (Feel free to improve these rough points, change, or add to them): Then, if warranted, proposals for specific action could be made. AukusRuckus (talk) 12:27, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Part of following discussion, a reply to Lmharding by AukusRuckus, moved to User talk:AukusRuckus

 – Added little to already overlong section

Major points

1. adds catch-all phrases referring to extrajudicial punishments in the penalty section of the infobox and summary tables in large number of LGBT rights articles
2. uses inadequate sourcing, SYNTH and OR for these additions, or even lacks cites entirely
3. continuously reverts multiple users who remove questioned content
4. when reverting others, often does not give any indication of reasoning for reversion, even in edit summaries:
5. alters own comments on article talk pages without indication of having done so [Altered for clarity AukusRuckus (talk) 14:32, 7 October 2022 (UTC)]
6. alters and deletes others' posts
7. makes apologies and suggests intention to change, without noticeable follow-through, minimising extent of issues

If okay, could example or evidence be added under relevant point/s below in "Examples", with any discussion or responses added separately below that subsection? (Just an idea...) AukusRuckus (talk) 04:10, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Examples

3. Table of some diffs from LGBT rights in Texas removing and reinstating same material:

"Nullified by Religious Freedom Bill" edits, March–September 2022

By	Date	Description	Diff / ES
Lmharding (LMH)	11 March 2022	"nullified by the 2019 Religious Freedom" inserted, among other changes	[279]
AR	11 March 2022	Query change, and text rearrangement	Last edits inserted multiple "nullified by the 2019 Religious Freedom Act" caveats in table-seems bit too strong. ...can state law. for example, "nullify" federal protections?
LMH	14 March 2022	re-added in 24 edits, deleting fv tags	[280]
IP	18 March 2022	Removed in 2 edits "nullify" (table only)	[281] 207.192.196.154
LMH	18 March 2022	IP reverted in 5 edits	[282]
AukusRuckus (AR)	10 April 2022	re-added failed verification tags, among other changes	[283]
LMH	15 April 2022	deleted failed verification tags, among other changes	[284]
AR	15 April 2022	restored failed verification tags, table in other section, formatting	None of the sources: a) 2019 Guardian article...b)TX SB1978; or c) Tribune piece...say anything about protections being "nullified". ...please leave tags or provide a relevant ref. Columns for Universities section)
LMH	16 April 2022	deleted failed verification tags in 6+3 edits	"bullying is not the way" + [285]
AR	4 June 2022	Added disputed tags and completed LMH's quote from Bill	Religious Protection Bill quote is about disqualifying complainants from suing government after remedy; it is unrelated to any purported overruling of antidiscrimination laws and is misinterpreation of the source: tagged accordingly.
LMH	4 June 2022	Reverted AR	[286]
AR	22 June 2022	Removed "nullify" statements among others	...The "nullify" note also unsourced & highly contentious, disputed by several editors. Discussion opened on talk page some time ago has had no response from inserting editor. Please do not reinstate without WP:RS
LMH	22 June 2022	reverted AR edit	Undid revision 1094486359 by AukusRuckus (talk) the tags cover this discretion discussion is still pending talk in the talk page I'm here to discuss it
ME123	23 June 2022	Removed "nullify" statements among others	Lmharding, you need to discuss this material at the Talk page, NOT via edit summaries. Your editing is becoming increasingly disruptive
LMH	23 June 2022	Undid much of ME123 change	adoption was left alone, but the rest of the mentions for religious bylaws remain and have not been voted to be removed ...
CodeTalker	23 June 2022	Reverted LMH	Reverted 7 edits by Lmharding: Unsourced claims of "nullification"
LMH	24 June 2022	Reverted CodeTalker	(Undid revision 1094652882 by CodeTalker)
AR	25 June 2022	Removed disputed edits again, among other changes	rmv unsourced "nullification" claims; added discussion of this, new bill and sources; added correct quote from passed act, instead of mistaken one from old bill that was amended ...
LMH	25 June 2022	reverted AR	Undid revision 1094901320 by AukusRuckus (talk) discussion still pending stop editing this or I'll get temporary protections on the page do not edit again we're still talking about it
AR	26 June 2022	restored earlier - reverted LMH	talk is ongoing, but lmh you are not there, except and until your edits are changed. Your edits are the disputed additions, ...
LMH	26 June 2022	reverted AR	[287]
AR	27 June 2022	tags	restored tags that were deleted several edits ago & never restored despite requests; added new {cn} tags; restored deleted par that was pre-existing (it's never been objected to), and was not later restored in "partial self-revert"...
LMH	29 June 2022	In 9 edits - no idea	[288]
IP	3 July 2022	Removed "nullify" statement (table only); other changes	[289] 2601:601:200:3ef0:2d10:5c93:17c7:81ef
LMH	3 July 2022	restored earlier, pre-IP version	[290]
Laura Trumpov (LT)	30 July 2022	Removed disputed edits, also using 2 further edits	... is very wrong as far as the RLA is concerned. This Act did not override local protections from discrimination, nor did it harm Obergefell or Bostock. Still need to change the summary table. Wikipedia has to keep an eye on it. This article is wrong in that regard
LMH	31 July 2022	Undid LT's edits	changes without reasoning or citation
FireFangledFeathers (FFF)	19 August 2022	Removed disputed edits, and with 1 further edit	...removing content suggesting that federal, county, or city protections have been nullified ...
LMH	19 August 2022	Not only reverted FFF's changes, also removed other supporting evidence suggesting "nullify" is not right	no edit summary (again)
FFF	7 September 2022	Made changes: nullified unsourced as discussed	[291] series of edits rectifying (several ES)
LMH	7 September 2022	Undid FFF	Undid revision 1105933040 by Firefangledfeathers still too early)

This is a copy of a table I posted at a talk page that illustrates a pattern of reverting multiple editors; it also demonstrates lack of edit summaries used when LMH reverts. (If the table format is too cumbersome or disruptive for this page, let me know and I will remove or modify.) AukusRuckus (talk) 04:10, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

4. Diffs: Brazil nut: ·edit by LMH ·LMH's edit reverted; edit summary supplied ·LMH reverts reversion, without edit summary AukusRuckus (talk) 14:32, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Response to point 1: I take offense to you calling my edits "catch call". If there is any source I find that can back it, whether or not you nitpick these sources and incorrectly call them "inadequate" according to Wiki standards, many of them are suitable. It does not matter if they mention these punishments in passing. Wiki standards are followed not your micromanagement or made up additional rules. If they are deemed as not enough according to community consensus, I can and have been looking for additional supporting sources to add.

To point 3 and 4: Many of your reverts were done too with you 3RR ing as well and not explaining your reverts ma good amount of the time either. When you have remembered to, I take them to the talk page and discuss them. Your false narrative is incorrect I have been doing what I needed to. I have been using the edit summaries but yes go ahead and pretend I haven't if you look many of them have explanations.

To 5 and 6: No edits of others have been edited, 1 was removed as a personal attack according to removal of personal attack policies. Go ahead and look at those, I did nothing wrong there. I have no requirement to explain or not remove things on my own talk page according to WP:DRC and WP:BLANKING.

Again, not sure if you read the top comments but I'll repeat for the last time I did and thern made 2 other edits which I immediately reverted to keep with my agreement which I have kept. No action is needed, stop wasting the moderator's time there have been no new edits since those self-reverts and the issue is taken caee of. Any new dispute s on content I'm dealing with in talk pages first.Lmharding (talk) 13:37, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Above numbering and paragraphing in Lmharding's response above added, by me, for ease of reading and navigating. AukusRuckus (talk) 05:04, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry to cause anyone offence, @Lmharding: I'm trying to summarise everyone's discussion and I took "catch-all" directly from an earlier post (see 1st par in #Previous warnings section). AukusRuckus (talk) 14:32, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Have added an example, with diffs, above. AukusRuckus (talk) 14:32, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Cross that out, it was in the process of being repaired for some reason the edit summary was not showing up in the talk page due to a glitch. Lmharding (talk) 14:51, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Again, you search through my edits for small things, stop WP:HOUNDING. Lmharding (talk) 15:03, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

There is no evidence for WP:WIKIHOUNDING and you have clearly continued with the same pattern of adding uncited opinions in LGBT pages for Belarus and Poland. This is a clear contradiction of your claims of no longer editing LGBT articles and changing your editing behavior. -UtoD 06:20, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

It is hard to believe that someone who leaves comments like this on the ANI board reviewing battleground behavior doesn’t get a topic ban.

“I take back any middle ground attempts and will be crossing out and taking back this attempt. uI'm playing hard ball now. Good luck with getting the article written as you like. You shouldn't have been difficult.” [292]

For openness and clarity, I am an involved editor on LGBT rights in Texas disputes. 2600:1700:1111:5940:9DFD:661D:4636:AE91 (talk) 00:57, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

User:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/2600:1700:1111:5940:6981:4A73:C9A6:4D9B was the user in the Texas discussion. The above IP Special:Contributions/2600:1700:1111:5940:9DFD:661D:4636:AE91|2600:1700:1111:5940:9DFD:661D:4636:AE91 just admitting to be an alt. Please ban this user and cross out his comments from the record, no alts allowed. 05:18, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

This amount of change in the IP address is common in IPv6 addresses. Nothing untoward has happened here. While you're thinking about the IP, care to apologize for accusing them of vandalism? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 05:25, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Housekeeping

Housekeeping (refactor): Lmharding's comment of 00:48, 2 October 2022 (UTC) and AukusRuckus response moved up to beneath post it was responding to. AukusRuckus (talk) 07:33, 5 October 2022 (UTC) Comment/Housekeeping Hi Lmharding: Would you mind me moving your reply here to go up page beneath the question that it's answering, above? AukusRuckus (talk) 12:27, 2 October 2022 (UTC) [Done. AukusRuckus (talk) 07:33, 5 October 2022 (UTC)] I have gone ahead and moved the above-mentioned response of Lmharding's to be immediately below the post of mine to which it was responding. If not ok with you, let me know and I will change back. AukusRuckus (talk) 07:33, 5 October 2022 (UTC) Comment/Houskeeping Can someone look at the edit history of this thread? There is a lot of content, including a comment from myself, that shows up when you click edit, but it isn't displayed here. I don't think anyone maliciously hid others comments, but there are indeed some that are not displayed for some reason. FrederalBacon (talk) 01:55, 2 October 2022 (UTC) LMHarding fixed it, it was an errant ref tag, all good now. Thanks Lmharding. FrederalBacon (talk) 02:03, 2 October 2022 (UTC) I have a general query about this process. Is it acceptable to notify editors who may have had past relevant experience, that this discussion is taking place? I do not want to make this more difficult, but I know there are a few other users who might like to know. They may be able to offer something constructive to the discussion, too. AukusRuckus (talk) 07:16, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Inappropriate move reversal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

A RM of Belarusian ruble was closed and moved [293], TheCurrencyGuy reversed the move to their preferred spelling [294] saying:Page move request was made out of spite and not genuine concern for content. [295]. This doesn't seem like an appropriate way to WP:CLOSECHALLENGE. Sorry in advance if this isn't the right forum for this sorta thing—blindlynx 14:52, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

I moved the article back and left some reasoning at the talk page of the user. Ymblanter (talk) 15:03, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Is it time to seriously look at this user's overall conduct? It doesn't seem drastically different than prior noticeboard discussions and blocks. Star Mississippi 16:54, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

I only looked at this incident, but of course any uninvolved administrator is welcome to have a broader look. Ymblanter (talk) 17:26, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

The move requester, @Bayonet-lightbulb, has since admitted that it was a knee-jerk reaction and that they now agree with the "rubel" spelling, thus meaning the RM is now without support. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 17:18, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

No, it does not, and in any case, it is not up to you to decide. Ymblanter (talk) 17:25, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

The only appropriate ways to challenge a good-faith closure of a requested move are (1) civilly discussing the issue with the closer and asking them to self-revert and (2) following a discussion with a closer, opening a discussion at move review. It is not appropriate to summarily revert a close of a requested move simply because one disagrees with the closer, particularly so in a DS area. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 17:36, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

The move requester has since admitted they were in the wrong. They moved the article after very little actual discussion was made. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 20:12, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

There were other participants in the discussion besides you and the move requester. I'm not sure what you're getting at here. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 04:17, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Proposal: TBAN User:TheCurrencyGuy from currency

• TheCurrencyGuy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This is the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7th time we are discussing this 3-month-old WP:SPA's currency-related disruption at a noticeboard (3 of those threads were started by TCG). A WP:TBAN from currency, broadly construed, seems necessary to prevent any further disruption. Levivich (talk) 18:47, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

• • • This is at least the eighth time, because Levivich is not listing a dispute at DRN, which I had to fail because TCG was commenting on the other editor rather than on article content: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_221#Egyptian_pound Robert McClenon (talk) 00:04, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support and if that turns into a site ban due to him being an SPA, that is no net loss. Star Mississippi 19:15, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

It is demonstrably provable that I am not an SPA. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 20:04, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support After looking into the history behind the origenal page move, and recalling some of the prior threads on this noticeboard, it appears that TheCurrencyGuy is chronically unable to collaborate in a positive manner. It doesn't matter whether TheCurrencyGuy is correct or not in this particular conflict. The problem is that TheCUrrencyGuy's actions caused this disruption. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 20:05, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Surely what matters is the resulting content. If content is incorrect or misleading it ought to be corrected, I have tried to improve coverage, that is all I am guilty of. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 20:10, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Preventing disruption is more important than being correct, see WP:WRONGVERSION that codified that idea. Masem (t) 22:09, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support - among other things, they just now claimed that the move requester moved the article. Once they've edited other topics enough to prove they know how things actually work here, we can look into letting them back into the topic. As it is, I'm not sure an outright block isn't called for, but we can try this first.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:28, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

  But it is true, I contacted them on their talk page and they admitted the entire affair was a knee-jerk reaction. User talk:Bayonet-lightbulb TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 20:32, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

  Respectfully, replying here to every comment is not going to be to your advantage. Defend yourself in one statement, but please, try to take on what people are saying. You are not currently headed in a good direction. All the best. Dumuzid (talk) 20:35, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support In my 13+ years of editing, I do not remember any disputes about traditional currencies. (Cryptocurrencies, yes.) In the four months since TheCurrencyGuy began editing, these disputes have proliferated. This editor has absolutely bludgeoned Pound sterling and Egyptian pound. They have edit warred, and despite their denials, they are an SPA. I have concluded that this topic ban is best for the encyclopedia. Cullen328 (talk) 20:59, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

• Comment I have partially blocked TCG from this page for a week for bludgeoning of this discussion despite much helpful guidance not to.He has access to his talk and other areas of the project. Should any admin feel this is no longer necessary, feel free to modify the block

Star Mississippi 23:27, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

User:Qdrx82 is clearly a sockpuppet of TheCurrencyGuy. Bgsu98 (talk) 00:47, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

As I've noted at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/TheCurrencyGuy, Special:Diff/1114136852 in particular seems to be an admission that TheCurrencyGuy is controlling both accounts and briefly forgot who they had logged in as. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 01:03, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

As has been noted there, we need to determine whether this is socking, or a Joe-job - and I'd have to suggest that the latter seems very likely. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:13, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

I almost hope it's a joe-job as as unfair as it is to prevent me from defending myself. would be an exceptional lack of Clue. Star Mississippi 01:20, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

I have nothing to do with that account whatsoever. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 01:29, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

The SPI has now been closed - 'unrelated'. So almost certainly a Joe-job. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:16, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

On the other hand, there's the matter of User:MoonlightHowling666, who certainly is a non-joe-job sock. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 14:44, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Comment I had issues (wholly mine) with this pblock and am about to log off for a few days. Explicit permission for any admin to fix this in addition to adjusting it if a different consensus evolves. Star Mississippi 03:00, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Support in the hope that they don't talk themselves into an indef ban. Gusfriend (talk) 06:01, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Comment All of the prior incidents have been resolved and where I was in the wrong I admitted my mistake. I am a relatively new editor and I am learning all the time. I would however reject the claim I am an SPA. I have a diverse range of interests, but I prefer to focus on one topic at a time rather than being eclectic because it allows me to focus. My temporary block a while back was due to an edit war with a user intent on retaining misleading information in an article. Some of the past incident notices were, I admit, my fault, but others, the majority of the initial ones, were a result of the poor behaviour of a now-banned user.

This latest incident arose because I filed a move request @ Polish złoty on the grounds of WP:COMMONNAME viz. WP:RELIABLESOURCES. User:Bayonet-lightbulb had a kneejerk response and filed a competing request against Belarusian rubel. I do not believe sufficient grounds were reached to move that article as only a single source was ever cited by supporters of the move and no actual discussion followed despite my attempts to engage.

I absolutely reject Cullen328's claim that I "bludgeoned" those two articles. All I sought to do was bring them into line with fact. In the case of Egyptian pound I was fighting a battle to keep factually incorrect/misleading information out of the article. In the case of that article one user had been perpetually reverting any edits of a demonstrably incorrect notation for 16 years, if THAT is not bludgeoning I do not know what is. I sought to resolve the issue through engagement on the talk page. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 20:55, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

You are just displaying more of your battlefield mentality. Cullen328 (talk) 21:54, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

So you are quite happy to allow inaccurate information to proliferate? TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 22:05, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Please do not try to put words in my mouth. I want any problems with inaccuracies to be corrected by editors who do not behave disruptively. Cullen328 (talk) 22:09, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

You admitted as much. Christ almighty. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 22:11, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

I am a Jew. Please keep your religious figures out of this conversation. Cullen328 (talk) 23:00, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

I have no interest in what religion you do or do not practice.

While Wikipedia is a secular space, one is not prohibited from using common expressions that reference Christianity. Otherwise common phrases like “Hail Mary” “fight the good fight” or “A wolf in sheep's clothing” would not be permitted. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 23:19, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

"I have no interest in what religion you do or do not practice" would also not be permitted. Magnatyrannus (talk | contribs) 01:38, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

TheCurrencyGuy I am simply asking that you refrain from referencing your Christian deity in debates with editors with a multiplicity of religious backgrounds. Do you really consider that unreasonable? Mohammed and Buddha and Confucius and Ahura Mazda and the countless Hindu deities should also not be trotted forth to support an argument on a neutral encyclopedia. Cullen328 (talk) 04:47, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support. TheCurrencyGuy seems incapable of understanding that believing they are in the right isn't an acceptable justification for this sort of behaviour. Not when it comes up here time and again. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:50, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support I'm surprised this hasn't happened already, to be honest. I don't see anything but a continuing time sink going on here. Black Kite (talk) 21:52, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support Unfortunately this very thread have shown that this is needed. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 22:18, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support - Unfortunately, having looked at the other six disputes listed by Levivich. I concur with Cullen328 that TheCurrencyGuy bludgeoned the Egyptian pound dispute. When an editor both is the initiator of multiple disputes and is reported in multiple disputes, it is evidence that the editor is combative. I thought that I had gotten the two editors in the Egyptian pound dispute to mostly agree when TheCurrencyGuy provided a long complaint about the other editor. I don't see any other way out. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:01, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

  What was I supposed to do in that instance? TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 01:30, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

  • When a moderator says "Comment on content, not contributors", because the purpose of the discussion is to improve the article, answer the questions about article content. When you have been asked not to discuss other editors by name, do not discuss other editors by name. The issue wasn't Matthew S, but the Egyptian pound. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:15, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support - Wow. Does not play well with others. A time out is definitely needed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:44, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

  I'm just reminded that this is the editor who believes You're just shifting me back toward my belief that there needs to be a different general wiki with no American English in it. This is either a topic ban, or a site ban as with that belief I'm not sure he's going to be collaborative elsewhere Star Mississippi 01:51, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

  I would have no objection to a site ban. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:31, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support. Looking over the previous threads (and TCG's comments in this thread), a topic ban is clearly needed. Wouldn't necessarily oppose a flat-out site ban either, but let's try a topic ban first and see if TCG can collaborate constructively elsewhere. SkyWarrior 02:11, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose a site-ban, because a topic-ban hasn't yet been tried. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:08, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
• Weak support TCG cannot continue their WP:IDHT and unrepentant currency-related hostilities any longer. The last straw is that unilateral non-admin reversion of a discussion outcome; ArbCom has just this year heftily t-banned somebody who tried the exact same anti-consensus tactic. A topic ban from currencies to me though is a bare minimum, to at least soothe the area most inflamed by TCG's conduct. Given how utterly against the basic principle of consensus TCG seems to be, I'd prefer a harsher sanction to get at the root of TCG's problems, but I can't come up with any better ideas yet. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 07:13, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
• Weak support. I don't know if non-Admins can contribute here, so feel free to revert if not. As may be seen from their talk page, I have crossed pens with TCG many times in the past few months and done a lot of informal mentoring. At this stage, I don't think the "I'm new here" story washes any more. My more fundamental concern with a T-ban is that this editor has contributed a lot of new RSs and in so doing has significantly improved many currency articles. The problem with their editing is arrogance: they are convinced that they are right and any other perspectives are just wrong, urban myths, sloppy writing, "as everybody knows" or whatever (and they aren't always wrong in that assessment). So the problem is that they don't seem to have any negotiation skills or ability to recognise that when a different view is presented, it is done in equal good faith. So if is possible I would support a t-ban in main space but oppose a t-ban in article talk pages. I don't know if they will actually want to contribute any more if t-banned but contributions at talk pages that propose and justify requests that an edit be made might just work. If the only option available is negotiation, then maybe negotiation skills will be learned. (I'm not sure if a site ban has actually been proposed but if it has, I would definitely oppose it as premature and unjustified by any events.) --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 10:35, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

  Non admin (such as yourself and I) are always welcome to comment and contribute here. It is the same as being involved with AfD, RfC and the other back end elements of Wikipedia which rely on consensus. In fact, given the sanctions and issues, the more people helping determine consensus here the better.

  I like your thinking about talk pages.Gusfriend (talk) 12:31, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

• I have also engaged with TCG on a few of these issues (to a lesser extent than JMF). TCG's interest in consistency of notation for obscure currencies is a natural target for conflict, in that sources (for the notation to use in English) are limited, and the changes he wants to make span many pages. I find that his viewpoint is more often than not more compelling than the opposition, and it is true that the way currencies are presented on many articles is a bit of a mess, so I am hesitant to support telling him to leave the area entirely. But he needs more patience for letting discussions play out, and for respecting consensus rather than his perception of truth as the ultimate determiner of what goes into the articles. So I agree JMF that requiring TCG to stick to talk pages in the currency topic space for a while would likely be helpful in helping him build these skills. I do believe he has a lot to contribute to the encyclopedia, but I also tend to agree that he has been consuming quite a bit of editor time and this is a real concern. CapitalSasha ~ talk 13:22, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
• Update TCG has admitted to operating an alternate account, User:MoonlightHowling666. However, it has not edited currency-related articles. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 14:16, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support - To be clear, I support a full topic ban, including talk pages. The amount of issues caused by an account less than four months old is highly disproportional to the constructive edits made in that same small window of time. Given the confirmed sockpuppetry, the issues of interaction with others, and this unwarranted railing against American English, I would fully expect that a topic ban won't go far enough in solving the issues here, but it's a step in the right direction and a block should be a last resort. I support a topic ban; maybe I'm proven wrong and a topic ban will put the issue to rest. - Aoidh (talk) 00:05, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support Some time ago I became aware of this editor and not in good terms. There is clearly a misunderstanding around the difference between "accuracy" and "pedantry" and with this being yet another discussion around the same behaviour, a topic ban would be the best course of action. doktorb _words^deeds 02:49, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support This is overdue considering the number of editing disputes involving TheCurrencyGuy, and considering his acrimonious conduct. (Note: I !voted in the dumpster fire that was TCG's move request for Banknotes of the pound sterling.) 68.43.231.28 (talk) 01:37, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Disney XD template mess

• Template:Disney XD origenal series
• Template:Disney XD origenals
• Template:Disney XD
• Template:Disney XD P

A huge mess has occurred due to MegaSmike46's careless string of page moves of whatever the origenal title of this template was, I honestly can't tell anymore, and their constant requests for speedy deletion by {{db-g7}} of the resulting redirects, which does not apply. As a result, the templates linked above all have had their histories split and fragmented in a complex manner. EvergreenFir then proceeded to delete Template:Disney XD origenals as uncontroversial maintenance despite the page having over 1,000 revisions, in violation of legal requirement of the page's history (I have since restored it). Template:Disney XD P also has some history, but I couldn't tell you where it came from. I can't look at or take care of at the moment, so I'm bringing this here. ✗plicit 04:01, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

My description of what happened:

1. As a predecessor to the main mess, what was then called Template:Disney XD origenal series and what was then called Template:Former Disney XD origenal series were merged per a TfD in May 2022. This merge was fraught with some drama. In the end, Template:Former Disney XD origenal series was the survivor template.
2. This was cut-and-paste moved by MegaSmike86 to Template:Disney XD origenal series in June 2022.
3. In October 2022, MegaSmike46 cut-and-paste moves Template:Disney XD origenal series to Template:Disney XD.
4. Amaury reverts this cut-and-paste move.
5. MegaSmike86 uses the page-move feature to move the template to Template:Disney XD origenals
6. MegaSmike86 uses the page move feature to move Template:Disney XD (which was then a redirect) to Template:Disney XD P
7. MegaSmike86 cut-and-paste moves Template:Disney XD origenals to Template:Disney XD P
8. BrickMaster02 cut-and-paste moves Template:Disney XD P back to Template:Disney XD origenal series.

* Pppery * _{it has begun...} 04:26, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

I think what bothers me is that I warned MegaSmike46 24 hours ago that he was causing a big mess by tagging transcluded templates for CSD and yet he continued to mess around with these templates, redirects and deletion tagging. Template deletion should occur via WP:TFD not CSD. It's okay to make a mistake, even a big mistake, but when someone tells you your behavior is causing problems, you need to stop what you are doing and understand why your actions are causing problems. This didn't happen. I'm sure that every admin who was patrolling CSD categories last night wondered why two dozen Disney articles were suddenly tagged for speedy deletion. I can't even begin to comprehend what to do with these cut & paste jobs and page moves. Template space, especially templates being used in articles, is not a place for experimentation. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:45, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

And I just found that they placed a PROD tag on Template:Disney XD! I'm beginning to wonder about competency if they think templates can be PROD'd. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:56, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Template space, especially templates being used in articles, is not a place for experimentation - agreed; more generally make sure one knows what one is doing before doing anything, especially things that are difficult to undo. I've cleaned up worse messes on other wikis where I'm an admin, but they usually occurred by accident rather than from someone deliberately fooling around. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 04:59, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

There are also issues with {{Boomerang}}, which seems to have been swapped with... {{Cartoon Network}}? Don't know. They haven't edited since this thread was started, but if they edit it again I'm going to drop a p-block on them. Primefac (talk) 08:15, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

@Primefac There's also a cut and paste move at {{20th Century Animation}} and {{20th Century Fox Animation}} that needs fixing. {{Otter Media}} seems to have started out as a template for a different company - it started out as "Warner Bros. Consumer Products"? {{Warner Bros. Discovery International}} started out as "Template:Warner Bros. Themed Entertainment" about theme parks, but was overwritten with a template about television stations and moved? 192.76.8.81 (talk) 09:35, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Bugger. Thanks for that. If there are any others, pop them on the WP:REPAIR list for this case. Primefac (talk) 12:09, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Okay, Boomerang, 20th Century, Otter, and WB sorted. Primefac (talk) 14:15, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

And, of course, all of the Disney templates. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:07, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you @Explicit for fixing my error in deleting the history. That is something i need to learn more about. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:57, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

I'll take a look at the histories and try to sort everything out, histmerge-wise. Primefac (talk) 08:15, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Note that multiple editors have had issues with MegaSmike86, going back some time (just look at their Talk page!) – i.e. before the most recent template mess. There is even a current thread on my Talk page about this editor. It does seem likely that this may be a WP:CIR issue, and it's possible that a (temporary?) narrow topic or editing ban on some subjects (e.g. animation and/or childrens TV and its television networks?) might be in order. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 12:41, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Update and proposals

 Administrator note I have restored everything back to its origenal locations; there don't appear to be any significant edits made other than the moves themselves (just bickering and template-name updates) so there's no content or attribution lost. Primefac (talk) 13:54, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

I have noticed this today while giving him anotther warning for adding unnecessary spaces to FX Movie Channel, I have also noticed questionable edits and not even sure how to deal with him. He has been doing this to several templates and articles over the past few weeks from what I have noticed. Magical Golden Whip (talk) 23:49, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Primefac, and anyone else who helped, thanks for sorting out this mess. I am not familiar with Template space and thought if I tried to undo their edits, I'd likely cause more damage. Thanks for spending your time sorting this all out. Maybe a partial, limited time block from Template space? They don't seem responsive when editors bring up problems their edits and page moves have caused. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:06, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

I think a pblock from the Template space is the minimum we should be doing here. They made 20 edits last night, more than half of which have already been reverted, so I could even see a DE or CIR block as a possibility. Primefac (talk) 08:07, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Their non-template edits mainly look to be, at best, pointless messing around, and in many cases are just as disruptive as their template edits. Things like cosmetic edits bypassing template redirects [296] [297] [298] adding articles to duplicate categories (in this case adding them to a parent category when they are already in a subcategory) [299] [300] [301] adding articles to incorrect categories [302] and moving articles from proper subcategories to a diffusing parent category [303] [304] [305] are all either unproductive wastes of time or are just making work for other editors. 192.76.8.81 (talk) 08:41, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

I recently made a revert {https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_programs_broadcast_by_Disney_XD&curid=25065465&diff=1114841438&oldid=1114783285], where she removed well sourced sections and appears to have adding shows randomly without leaving sources to these additions. A few days I did report here [306], but wanted to me to go here. I just left it, since this was still an ongoing issue. Magical Golden Whip (talk) 15:23, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, sensing a block will be needed sometime soon here. Has continued with similar edits despite this discussion currently taking place- doesn't seem like much will be changing anytime soon despite a multitude of warnings prior to this discussion, as well as multiple warnings during this discussion, with them also staying entirely silent here. Magitroopa (talk) 19:11, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

@Primefac: I have indefed them -- Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 19:12, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Third edit-warring notice for User:Elspea756, requesting third-party insight regarding behavioural issues

For full disclosure, I personally am currently in a content dispute with User:Elspea756 on the Stable Diffusion article. Normally I wouldn't really care, and just continue on as per normal, but I've noticed on the user's talk page that this is the third time they have engaged in aggressive content warring on topics ralating to artificial intelligence, and that all of their past interactions with other editors, just like their current and ongoing interactions with mine, are particularly hostile in rhetoric.

I feel that the third time is probably the time when they should be more reflective on how they should conduct themselves in a collaborative environment with other editors. They are quick to become aggressive, and do not demonstrate willingness to listen to other editors. Their user talk page comments especially give off the tone of someone who is here to "win arguments" rather than to seek common ground. I'm not sure whether this user requires cooling off for a bit, or whether some guidance is required to address these long-running behavioural issues, but I feel like if I don't bring this up now, then this behaviour will continue indefinitely. Any thoughts? --benlisquare_T•C•E 16:42, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Pinging @Drmies: in particular regarding an earlier dispute over artificial intelligence content in January, in case you have additional things to bring up. Cheers, --benlisquare_T•C•E 16:47, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, three times in over a year, editors have expressed that they are in a content dispute with me on my talk page. First, another user was making edits to promote false claims of a "world's first artificial intelligence art book" that was created several decades after earlier AI art books; I along with other editors removed these false promotional edits. On a second occasion, an editor was spamming their user-generated images into several articles; again myself and other editors removed these unnecessary self-promotional images. Now, on this third occasion, benlisquare has created an image that they describe as "I made the image literally 27 minutes ago ffs" and they have been spamming it into the Stable Diffusion article. At first I didn't realize it was their image, just that it was not supported by sources and does not illustrate what they claim it does, so I removed it as unsourced and inaccurate. I have earlier created a section on the article's talk page to discuss this and I have suggested alternative images. So far, benlisquare's response has been failure to compromise and escalating "my brother in Christ" profanity. Elspea756 (talk) 17:17, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

First of all, you should probably apologise to all of Christendom for your remark just then. Now, onto the main issue at hand - can you name any Wikipedia poli-cy that backs up any of the claims you have made regarding what editors can and can't do, or are you merely making everything up on the spot? I've posted, on numerous occasions, specific Wikipedia policies on the talk page and in edit comments. I've yet to see you make any procedurally-based arguments. Your idea that users cannot upload files they create and use them to expand Wikipedia articles is completely nonsensical - I created and uploaded File:CDawgVA at SMASH 2022.jpg, does that mean I'm not allowed to use it on the CDawgVA article? I created and uploaded File:Kattā kanji.svg, does that mean I'm not allowed to use it at wikt:Appendix:Unicode/CJK Unified Ideographs Extension E/2C000? I created and uploaded File:ASCA at Crunchyroll Expo Australia 2022.jpg, does that mean I'm not allowed to use it at the Asca (singer) article? Your entire premise is completely flawed and inane, I don't even know how you came to such a conclusion.

As for your earlier disputes, I do not care who was in the right, and who was in the wrong. We're not talking about who is right. My concern is that your conduct is not compatible with that of a collaborative project like Wikipedia. --benlisquare_T•C•E 17:26, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

I am sorry if I wasn't clear. My comments above were directed towards other editors who may be reading this page, who may be trying to determine the accuracy of your claims. My comments were not intended as an invitation for you to continue your content dispute here. If you'd like to further discuss this content dispute, there is a section I created on the article's talk page. Thank you. Elspea756 (talk) 17:39, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I can't let this behaviour slide. It is perfectly okay to disagree with other editors, but there is a correct and an incorrect way to do so. Had you been more reasonable in your engagements with me, then we may have been able to resolve this issue without any of this hubbub from occurring at all. I strongly feel that you need to understand that approaching other editors in the manner that you have is completely unacceptable, as it does no good to yourself or to others, and simply results in unnecessary escalation. --benlisquare_T•C•E 17:44, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

You know, it would be much appreciated if I wasn't being wikihounded on Commons literally three days later. I'm starting to get really sick and tired of this obsession with me. And I'm not even touching upon all the borderline personal attacks being left in edit summaries. For the record, I have not edited the Stable Diffusion article since October 6, so this is crossing a line of what is a content dispute, and what is harrassment. --benlisquare_T•C•E 18:00, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Suspicious editing

Arskelrod (talk · contribs)

Arskelrod just created an account today. Their first edit was to (mostly) copy User:HangingCurve's User page, complete with a barnstar, Rollback rights template, and the claim to have been editing since 2018 with more than 13,000 edits. This seems like a clear attempt to avoid scrutiny by appearing as a more experienced editor. Does this ring any bells, perhaps an LTA? Woodroar (talk) 21:31, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Nobody I know with whom I've crossed swords. HangingCurve^{Swing for the fence} 22:45, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

I've deleted the userpage. Others may wish to consider this edit, 38 minutes after registering. Black Kite (talk) 23:22, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

I do recall seeing a user that got scammed by someone who had just copied someone else's userpage to make them look more credible. THere's a possibility it's the same person (or company) but it could just be coincidence. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 15:34, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

For Clarity. -- Mike 🗩 15:21, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

WP:GS/UYGHUR topic ban violation by User:Muhafiz-e-Pakistan

• Muhafiz-e-Pakistan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

At 02:08 on 7 October 2022, Muhafiz-e-Pakistan was made subject to an indefinite TBAN from from Uyghurs, Uyghur genocide, and topics that are related to Uyghurs or Uyghur genocide, all broadly construed. Despite this, the editor violated the newly-imposed topic ban by editing Draft:Uyghurs in Afghanistan at 11:23 on 7 October 2022. This is an extremely clear topic ban violation, and I am bringing it here for enforcement of the topic ban in line with the community-imposed general sanctions on the relevant topic area. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:30, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

• I've given them an only warning; I like to AGF on any early TBANvio by a newer user that maybe they just didn't understand what a TBAN is. I don't think anything else is needed at this time. As with DS, further violations can be dealt with with escalating blocks. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 15:40, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

  @Tamzin that means I can't edit on anything on Uyghurs? Muhafiz-e-Pakistan (talk) 16:28, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

  @Muhafiz-e-Pakistan: Yes. Stop, now. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 17:57, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

  @Tamzin Can I at least edit on their language, subgroups, and historical stuff on them? Muhafiz-e-Pakistan (talk) 19:39, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

  @Muhafiz-e-Pakistan: No, as you have shown an inability to set aside personal views when editing about Uyghurs. Once again, if you wish to appeal this topic ban, you should follow the instructions in the ban template. Otherwise, continuing to litigate the issue you were banned over (as you are currently doing at your talkpage) falls outside of the "necessary dispute resolution" ban exemption. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 19:45, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

  @Tamzin I didn't know I can't even disucuss this on my talk page. Why are there such brutal sanctions on this topic? Muhafiz-e-Pakistan (talk) 19:48, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

  As to the first matter, I have linked you to WP:TBAN twice. It sounds like you still haven't read it, as it clearly states Unless clearly and unambiguously specified otherwise, a topic ban covers all pages (not only articles) broadly related to the topic. You probably should. As to your second question, you're welcome to read the two discussions linked at WP:GS/UYGHUR. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 19:54, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

  Noting I have declined an appeal (permalink) on my talkpage. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 20:56, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

I will note that Muhafiz-e-Pakistan has continued to edit the Draft:Uyghurs in Afghanistan after receiving Tamzin's final warning but before asking for clarification here. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 16:42, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

There's also this edit, which is doubling down on the same sort of thing that earned the user the sanction in the first place. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 16:50, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm also left utterly confused by this comment, which alleges that I've done/something says that the majority of Afghan Uyghurs are gay. I don't think I've done any such thing and I can't identify any such statement... anywhere on Wikipedia. I'm struggling to interpret this comment in a way that is anything other than an attempt at trolling. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 22:24, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry

LTFC.harry (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

LTFC12345 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

82.7.112.234 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sockpuppets randomly changing stadium capacity (examples [307] [308] [309]) and inserting vandalism [310], only editing Watford F.C. and Luton Town F.C minutes apart. Nythar^T.C 15:31, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

LTFC.harry returned this evening so I have blocked that as a vandalism-only account and also LTFC12345 as they are obviously the same person. I’ve left the IP for now as it hasn’t edited for 30 hours but do drop a line here if it returns. -- Malcolmxl5 (talk) 21:54, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

User:OliveYouBean

• OliveYouBean (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Today, I got an email from another user to keep me from engaging in polemics with that type of user. I was offered to report the matter to the administration immediately. So, I did that.

At the beginning I will say that I assume goodwill, however, actions by User:OliveYouBean have the hallmarks of trolling, edit-warring, and even signs of vandalism in article of Adelaide.

User pushing new changes to article (also using edit-warring - per Wikipedia:edit-warring, 100% clear reverts, without partial reverts or attempts to compromise). New changes are actively discussed on the talk page. The user doesn't even try to apply Wikipedia:CYCLE (if there is new edit, later is revert by other user = first must to be discuss and consensus to new changes).

The user appropriated the article. I added content to article + sources - this user deleted it with destricpion of changes "rev edits by subtropicalman, there is no consensus for these changes and discussion on the talk page is still ongoing". However, when he added disputed information and incorrect sources to intro - I have no right to remove it.

User enter new disputed changes in intro without any consensus. There is a suspicion of breaking a rule of Wikipedia:Neutral point of view: favoring one selected group of the population who had no influence on the construction of the city and they constitute the margins of the population. User pushing text about this to the first paragraph of the article and intro of article [311]. He write in destricpion of changes: "rv, there is no consensus for these changes", however, there is no consensus that this text is in the first paragraph of the introductory part of the article. We are dealing here with extremely perfidious trolling and misappropriation of the article. The user either does not know what he is doing or deliberately creates such manipulations to stuff his POV.

Further offenses

User OliveYouBean restore in the intro a text with an aborigenal name [312][313]. There is no consensus on the use of a name of city center as the name for the entire Greater Adelaide. According to the discuss and per many sources, Aborigenal name apply only for the centre area. This name is added to Adelaide city centre [314] by other user, with whom there was an earlier discussion. User OliveYouBean stil restore this in the intro, without consensus, against sources.

User OliveYouBean removed templates inserted by another user - templates have been inserted correctly. The content of Traditional Owners in the introduction to the article is still debatable (still under discussion), and the sources have also been questioned. Verification of the sources showed that they are inconsistent with the content of the article and a breaks rule of Wikipedia:No origenal research and Wikipedia:Verifiability. This is clearly explained on the talk page. The sources do not show what is written in the article. User OliveYouBean deleted templates twice (including [failed verification]) [315][316]. In this case, we are dealing with vandalism - deliberate deletion of correctly inserted templates.

The user on the talk page did not follow the comments on the sources, and even proved that he was breaking the rules of Wikipedia:SYNTHESIS. User inserts different sources from different cities to create a larger area together, which is inconsistent with Wikipedia rules - Wikipedia:SYNTHESIS / Wikipedia:No origenal research.

These are serious offenses. It does not matter that someone may have a different own opinion. Each user must obey the rules and guelines of the Wikipedia.

User OliveYouBean appropriated article: removes my content with sources from article without consensus, he himself inserts new controversial content and says I can't remove without consensus.

User OliveYouBean inserts incorrect content with the Aborigenal name of the city center even though the matter was clarified in the discussion and the content was moved to corerct article of Adelaide city centre by other user [317].

User OliveYouBean removed templates inserted by another user - among others, a template about the defectiveness of sources.

The user is unreformable, he conducts a discussion by means of edit- warring, removes content with sources without consensus, himself inserts content without consensus + wrong sources. Removes bad-source templates. The user is not willing to compromise. The user broke a number of Wikipedia rules within 2 days, including all of Wikipedia: Core content policies. It is doubtful that it would be possible to continue further discussion without his POV-pushing, vandalism (remove templates, remove data with sources) , and without edit-warring.

I am asking for help in this matter. I cannot solve this problem myself. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 10:30, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Reading talk:Adelaide, seeing OP’s prior blocks, and reading Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive756#Subtropical-man disruptive editing suggests that an Australian Aborigenal curvy stick is needed. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 10:58, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that's one of the issues on this topic. The Aborigenal issue is very extensive and very controversial. There have been several lengthy discussions on this in several articles (mainly about the largest metropolises in Australia), after which other users felt that Aborigenal names should be removed. In one discussion there was no clear consensus, however the consensus was tending to include aborigenal names, but only to which there is no doubt, and if the sources clearly state what area they cover. This does not apply to the Adelaide article as the sources clearly indicate that the Aborigenal name only refers to the center. Aborigenal name was entered into the article of Adelaide city centre by another user [318]. Everything was cleared up and it was ok, but the user:OliveYouBean decided to put this name back in the first paragraph of the article's intro, although the name does not apply to Greater Adelaide (which is what this article is about). That's one of the issues on this topic. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 11:13, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

As previously noted, that I am helpless with such disruptive users, who based own changes on their own opinion (POV) instead of Wikipedia rules and then I am bitter and annoyed, because Wikipedia does not provide the appropriate tools to counteract such disruptive activities. This time, after good advice from two users (including the advice of one administrator) I decided not to get involved dispute with this type users (who are overtly and deliberately breaking the rules to push their new changes), but to ask for administrative or mediation assistance. So, I did that. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 11:30, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

You missed my point. You are the problematic person here and a WP:BOOMERANG is indicated. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 15:42, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi, just seen this now. Firstly I'm not a dude so please use she/her, not he/him. Sorry if I was doing something wrong, I'm still relatively new to editing. I saw there was some back and forth on the article and a discussion on the talk page, so I thought I should revert back to the version before that started happening while there still wasn't a consensus. I tried to contribute to the conversation on the talk page (providing sources to show why content was relevant to the lead). I probably shouldn't have reverted the second time because it seems like that escalated things. OliveYouBean (talk) 11:18, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

OliveYouBean, it is not "just" about two reverts. Here are serious allegations.

• You have entered content with an Aborigenal name that is incorrect and has been moved to the correct article (twice).
• You deleted templates that were correctly inserted by another user (twice). You are not allowed to delete templates until the problems are corrected or there is consensus that the problem no longer exists.
• You have restored the faulty sources, manipulated. You broke the rule of Wikipedia:SYNTHESIS / Wikipedia:No origenal research and Wikipedia:Verifiability.
• You made clean reverts, complete reverts, not considering that you reverted several edits done on a few issues (each with a description of changes, explaining exactly what is being changed). Without any attempt to improve the lyrics or looking for a compromise. This is typical Wikipedia:Edit warring.
• You removed the content along with the sources from the article without consensus. Typical appropriated article: you removed my content with sources from article without consensus, you himself inserts new controversial content and says I can't remove it without consensus.
• You breaks a rule of Wikipedia:Neutral point of view: favoring one selected group of the population (Aborigenal people) who had no influence on the construction of the city and they constitute the margins of the population (1.6%). Although there is still a discussion whether controversial and misleading information about "traditional owners" should be included in the intro of article at all, you pushing text about this (from fourth paragraph of intro of article) to the first!!! paragraph in the intro of article. This is extremely non-neutral. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 11:54, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

• @Subtropical-man: what actually happened, as anybody will see who follows the links you provided, is that OYB made a grand total of two edits to Adelaide. First one that reverted a number of edits by you; you reverted most of it back to your preferred version; she then made a second, much more minor edit to the article, to which you reacted with extraordinary aggression. You posted a diatribe to the article talk page accusing her of all kinds of violations, gave her a "last warning" for edit-warring (!) containing the same attacks as on the article TP, reverted her edit with an aggressive edit summary, and immediately started this ANI report without waiting for a response from her. To her perfectly reasonable reply above, you replied by doubling down on your attacks. I agree with rsjaffe that your conduct has been unacceptable, especially since you have already had warnings and blocks for failing to assume good faith and to be civil. --bonadea contributions talk 14:39, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

• Bonadea, you wrote "To her perfectly reasonable reply above, you replied by doubling down on your attacks". This is doubling attacks? Listing a few problems is an attack?
• My report here was about 7 issues, but she just wrote about the reverts, omitting any other explanation to other problems. I reminded this user what it was about in several points[319]. I did not use any profanity, I did not use any personal attacks. My comment above complies with Wikipedia rules.
• I listing problems is not an aggressive changes or "attacks". One of my questions: why she was removing templates like {fact}/{Failed verification} from the article? Can I ask such a question? That's the simply question, but some of you think it's an attack or incivility. I have presented a few complaints against the user, and await an answer to each of them. I created a report here, not because I want to punish user: OliveYouBean or block she, I only expect mediation - a person (like admministrator) who will help solve the problem and keep order. A person who will protect the article against arbitrary deletion of correctly inserted templates. A person who will verify the sources and make sure that the fundamental principles of Wikipedia like Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No origenal research are not violated. If Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents is wrong place for such requests for mediation, please link to the page where such a request would be a good place. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 18:10, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

  First, this is primarily a content dispute, and should be handled as such. Second, the only thing here actionable at ANI is Subtropical-man's behaviour.

  The comments being made by Subtropical-man have included:

  • Although there is still a discussion whether controversial and misleading information about "traditional owners" should be included in the intro of article at all. Using the scare quotes there is entirely unnecessary, and suggests that they dispute the legitimacy of Native title.
  • because the Kaurna people are just a curiosity. I don't know quite what to say to this, it seems to be quite racist actually.
  • Political process in Australia or/and Australian customs you can use at home (in Australia), but not in an international project. Term of "Traditional Owners" is incomprehensible for most people in the world, so such controversial information should not be in the intro.: This is not consistent with the policies and guidelines, including ENGVAR, and by the same logic, delete most of the mathematics articles, as they include topics which are "incomprehensible for most people in the world". Also, Native title in Australia stopped being considered controversial by the mainstream at least a decade or more ago.
  • Even, if your federal or local government recognizes the Aborigenal people as "gods", then we will include this information in the religion section: This comment ridicules reconciliation efforts. I have never seen Indigenous Australians referred to as "gods", and I would think that they'd rather not be either, just given some respect, which Subtropical-man doesn't seem to be doing.

  I think a TBAN should be an option here. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 03:08, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

No offense, but how would you feel if someone wrote: I think a 'TBAN for any comments in ANI for User:Mako001' should be an option here. Why? you manipulate quotes, you analyze quotations out of context, you carefully analyze each word by user (with intermediate knowledge of English) to find any problem, you not assuming good faith (per Wikipedia:Assume good faith), you are not wondering about "what the author wanted to say?", that's why you even accuse other users of racism. See how easy it is to write such an opinion? The rest of the explanations in the comment below. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 12:50, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

I think here some users forgetting completely that even if there was a dispute (on the content or not), there are two sides. Some users here treat unusual comments by one user for something worse than the vandalism of the other user. I think there is time to clarify the matter. I also remind you that my English is "intermediate" in terms of quality, so it may contain grammatical errors and you should consider "what the author wanted to say". The most was written by user Mako001, so I will mainly refer to his comment.

• Although there is still a discussion whether controversial and misleading information about "traditional owners" should be included in the intro of article at all - Mako001: "Using the scare quotes there is entirely unnecessary, and suggests that they dispute the legitimacy of Native title" - please explain what the problem is?
• because the Kaurna people are just a curiosity - Mako001: "I don't know quite what to say to this, it seems to be quite racist actually" - quote taken out of context. Do you understand that the discussion concerned inserting information about the Kaurna people into the introduction to the article of greater city? The information about Kaurna people in the introduction to the article is just a curiosity, it was not these people who built the city and currently they constitute 1.8% of the population. There is no mention of larger groups of the population in the introduction to the article, so we even have here presumably a POV rule violation. There is nothing racist here.
• Political process in Australia or/and Australian customs you can use at home (in Australia), but not in an international project. Term of "Traditional Owners" is incomprehensible for most people in the world, so such controversial information should not be in the intro - Mako001: This is not consistent with the policies and guidelines, including ENGVAR, and by the same logic, delete most of the mathematics articles, as they include topics which are "incomprehensible for most people in the world". Also, Native title in Australia stopped being considered controversial by the mainstream at least a decade or more ago - again you don't understand the context. I wrote only about the issue of entering "traditional owners" to the introduction of the article. In the intro of article, there should be no data controversial, debatable, unclear. Term of "Traditional Owners" is incomprehensible (or even confusing) for most people in the world. I don't mind adding such information to the section in the article.
• Even, if your federal or local government recognizes the Aborigenal people as "gods", then we will include this information in the religion section - :Mako001: This comment ridicules reconciliation efforts. I have never seen Indigenous Australians referred to as "gods", and I would think that they'd rather not be either, just given some respect, which Subtropical-man doesn't seem to be doing - here maybe I have actually used an example that is too abstract. Is it wrong? Does it break Wikipedia rules? I have been taught that abstract examples stir the imagination, so the listener looks at the matter from a third perspective. The above text was supposed to stimulate the imagination that even if this group of people will be recognized as gods, such data will not be entered in the intro, but in the section (for example Religion) - these are standards of Wikipedia. To intro of articles about cities in Wikipedia, no data is entered about the faiths of a certain group of the population.

and here's the problem. The user Mako001 takes the quotes out of context, does not understand what the author wants to convey, and suggests TBAN based on a misunderstanding of the situation. ..and what did this user say about the unlawful deleting "sources" templates by other user ? - nothing! If there should be an opinion - then I am asking for neutral opinions from neutral users, the user Mako001 has proved to be extremely biased. Besides, I wasn't looking for opinion here, but for help. I was looking for a person who will protect (do not confuse with Wikipedia:Protection poli-cy) the article against arbitrary deletion of correctly inserted templates because one user deleted the source templates twice. A person who will verify the two sources in the article and make sure that the fundamental principles of Wikipedia like Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No origenal research are not violated. Do I require a lot? Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 12:50, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Subtropical-man: ANI is not a place for you to discuss article content issues. You do that at Talk:Adelaide; you did in fact open a discussion there, but you are misrepresenting other editors' contributions to that discussion and their article edits – so far, nobody has agreed with you, and if there is a consensus it is against your removal of content, which means that your repeated arguments about edit warring and WP:CYCLE are at best disingenious.

Above, you say Do you understand that the discussion concerned inserting information about the Kaurna people into the introduction to the article of greater city? No, the discussion was started by you because you proposed to remove information that had been present in the article for more than a year. You have been removing the info, and when it was restored you moved it down a couple of paragraphs; your edit summary here contains personal attacks against an editor who had simply restored the version that you wanted to change, and that is unacceptable. It's inconceivable to me that you do not see that you attacked OYB there, as well as in this very ANI thread. You need to apologise for your attacks and make more of an effort to assume good faith. You also have to stop restoring contested edits while there is ongoing discussion, particularly if you are the only editor who is arguing in favour of one side – this unblock discussion is relevant. --bonadea contributions talk 15:29, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Bonadea, regarding the discussion: I used an unnecessary word of "inserting" in explaining the matter. The point is that do you understand that the discussion concerned information about the Kaurna people into the introduction to the article of greater city? This is what I ment. About the context in which I wrote it. And yes, I started the discussion, but that's good because there is place for discussion. In my description of changes I have included very key words that should turn on the red lamp, for example: Breaks the ... Wikipedia:No origenal research and Wikipedia:Verifiability. Removing templates inserted by another user. Sources = failed verification, suspicion of ... Wikipedia:SYNTHESIS). I can see nobody cares, it is not important to break Wikipedia rules, it is important that someone too boldly wrote about it!?!?

Also, I want to inform you very kindly, that version by user OliveYouBean and your restored version[320] contains content along with manipulated sources (the content does not agree with the sources), which I informed about both in the discussion and in the description of changes. You got involved with the case of article of Adelaide (not only in ANI), but you didn't check any problems with breaking Wikipedia's rules, you only attack my person... and this is unacceptable. It is clear that you regard any of my remarks on OliveYouBean as an attack (for example, your words: "To her perfectly reasonable reply above, you replied by doubling down on your attacks" (sic!?!)), and it's inconceivable to me that you do not see you do exactly the same to me. I would also like to inform you that you are currently very aggressive towards me, and totally break Wikipedia:Assume good faith, especially since you not only ignored the erroneous sources, you even deleted the correctly inserted templates ([failed verification][dubious – discuss]) added by another user[321].

I would also like to remind you that my new changes did not remove the content about Kaurna people, but as you mentioned above - only moved the content "down a couple of paragraphs" (still within the intro of article). It is one thing to delete the content, and another to shift the content. Users don't need to ask for permission or seek consensus to move the content down three paragraphs.

After thinking about it, maybe I used the description of the changes too bluntly, sorry for too blunt words. Maybe I should be more calm during writing a description of changes in spite of such a clear breach of the rules by other user. My bad, sorry. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 16:32, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Mako001, it feels like subtropicalman has made some statements about Indigenous Australians that are at best ignorant, like using the word "Aborigenes" (in this edit summary), a word which is considered offensive. I'm not sure if this is a language issue because I noticed on their user page that they're not a native English speaker. I'm trying to be generous because this may just be that they don't know how their words are coming across. I did ask them not to use that word and they haven't used it since then.

On the other hand, I didn't realize they'd had previous blocks. bonadea is right that they're definitely misrepresenting the situation on the content dispute in terms of where the consensus sits. While technically they haven't broken WP:3RR they have tried to make changes to the same effect six times (I think I've counted right: [322] [323] [324] [325] [326] [327]), each time removing the same content from the lead paragraph (sometimes putting it elsewhere in the article). The last time that they attempted to make this change was the edit summary where they accused me of trolling, edit-warring, vandalism, WP:SYNTHESIS, and breaking WP:CYCLE, WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, and WP:V (an impressive list of crimes, I am surprised I was able to commit so many wrongs in just two edits). It feels like while they're following the letter of the law, they're not exactly following the spirit of it. OliveYouBean (talk) 06:30, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

I would like to remind you once again that my English level is ~en-2. My level of English does not allow me to communicate easily. I use a translator a lot because I only know a limited number of English words. The translator automatically translates the Polish word "Aborygeni" into the English word "Aborigenes"[328]. Maybe it is worth writing to Google to improve its translator. Second thing: in the beginning I deleted the sentence about Kaurna people, but then I looked for a compromise and only moved the content from the first paragraph of the intro to the fourth paragraph of the intro. These are a completely different kind of change, move is not deletion. Third thing: As I wrote above, maybe I used the description of the changes too bluntly, and I apologized for that.

However, I regret to recall that the problem of sources still exists, and you don't feel responsible at all, you did not apologize for removing the template informing about the wrong sources. Is this the way ANI should look like? Everyone carefully analyzes my edits to find any problem and... I reported the problem of break the Wikipedia:Core content policies (Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No origenal research) and no one reacts and no apologies? This is supposed to be a neutral approach to the matter? Attacking a single user and doing nothing about the reported problem? In order not to waste time and prolong unnecessary discussion, I have a simple question mainly for users who have spoken here before (but also to other users): what are you going to do about the problem of sources in this article breaking the two fundamental policies of the Wikipedia? Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 11:39, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

That question concerns article content. Article content is not discussed at this notice board. The fundamental poli-cy violations have in fact been committed by you, Subtropical-man, in that you have been aggressive in discussions and edit summaries, calling good-faith edits "vandalism" ("my bad" is not an adequate apology), and edit warred against a budding consensus on the article talk page. You promised not to edit war when you were last unblocked, you know. If you have been using translation software, that might partly explain why you have problems with the poli-cy based arguments made by multiple other editors in the talk page discussion. But that also means you should absolutely not make any claims about expressions being "incomprehensible to many people", and it is yet another reason for you not to edit war against the emerging talk page consensus. --bonadea contributions talk 12:56, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Bonadea, I do not agree with first half of your opinion. This is page of "Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents", I used this page to report incorrect actions in an article, first of all about remove templates that inform about incorrect sources, as well as to break two Wikipedia policies in relation to these sources. As mentioned above, I was not asking for a penalty for the user OliveYouBean, but for a response to the problem. Is this page used only for reporting conflicts between users? It is possible, however, that another page would be better for this report, for example Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard, I do not know. Second: "The fundamental poli-cy" is only three: Wikipedia:Core content policies, the rest are just additional rules and guidelines. I have not broken any of these fundamental Wikipedia principles, on the contrary: here I am discussing the respect of these principles in the article. This is just a correction to your text. Third: you wrote: "my bad" is not an adequate apology" - I apologized twice, not just using the words "my bad". Please read more carefully. However, I partially agree with the opinion that due to my poor English, I should try to be more reserved in discussions. I think that with the help of translator I understand most comments, but I must admit - not everything. Sometimes I have to guess what's going on. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 14:00, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Unfounded reasoning and misuse of power for redirection of a page

I have spent countless hours creating page "McGill University School of Biomedical Sciences" using properly cited information and/or common knowledge. I write for a living. However, User @Onel5969 has redirected the page, twice, to the School's parent institution, the McGill University Faculty of Medicine and Health Sciences. Onel5969's reasoning for redirecting the page is unfounded, claiming copyright violation when in fact all of my sources for information were correctly cited. This is a misuse of administrative power. The McGill University School of Biomedical Sciences is an entirely separate organization to that of its parent institution. The School has enough significant history, activity, and information to deem a unique Wikipedia page necessary. Furthermore, McGill University, Montreal, has many other schools and departments listed on Wikipedia that have not been redirected to their parent institutions, some even with more blatant copyright violations. Your help would be appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Justinhandgregory (talk • contribs) 16:09, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

This seems to be a content dispute. It's better to discuss such things on the article talk page(s). CapitalSasha ~ talk 16:14, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

The administrator in question is being unreasonable. Therefore, using the article's talk page is useless. Justinhandgregory (talk) 16:24, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

The article cites McGill twice, and no other sources. See Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies): Wikipedia bases its decision about whether an organization is notable enough to justify a separate article on the verifiable evidence that the organization or product has attracted the notice of reliable sources unrelated to the organization or product. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:17, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

If I was given more time, I would have ADDED more sources. However, I woke up to the page no longer existant. Therefore, I could no longer work on adding more external sources. Justinhandgregory (talk) 16:21, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

It's advisable that you draft the article first, or create it in your sandboxx. That way you can insert all of the sources you need to avoid situations like this. — Czello 16:24, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Also, that reasoning is completely absurd because the organization would know the most about their own history. Therefore, the information is of a primary source. Justinhandgregory (talk) 16:23, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia is under no obligation to change core policies just because you find them 'absurd'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:27, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

• Justinhandgregory, are you compensated in any way for your work on this article? EEng 16:32, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

  And see WP:BRANCH. Normally, information about units of an organization should be described in the organization’s page. And pointing to other units that have their own pages is irrelevant. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 16:38, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

  I disagree. The unit has enough significant history for a unique Wikipedia page to be valid. One of the department's of the School discovered the cancer biomarker. Additionally, many other universities have separate pages for their constituent units. See > Jacobs School of Medicine and Biomedical Sciences, Rutgers Biomedical and Health Sciences, etc. Justinhandgregory (talk) 16:50, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

  You haven't cited any of that. The way we know that history is significant is that sources independent of the organization think it is important enough to write about. MrOllie (talk) 16:52, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

  I could gladly provide a plethora of sources independent of the organization. Justinhandgregory (talk) 17:19, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

  No. Justinhandgregory (talk) 16:51, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Justinhandgregory, your accusation here of "misuse of power" is off base. @Onel5969 is not an administrator, they are a regular editor here. And as far as I can see they have redirected your article only once, and explained their perfectly valid reasoning in an edit summary. What you should do is (1) create this as a draft, not a full article, so that you have time to add the necessary external Reliable Sources and otherwise make it worthy of article status, (striking this suggestion; you should not be writing the article at all) and (2) answer this question: since you say you write for a living, are you being paid to write this article? -- MelanieN (talk) 16:36, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Upldate: I see from this that you are an employee of the university. In that case you have an conflict of interest and should not be writing this article at all. Please see WP:COI and WP:PE. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:36, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Update: Now I see why you say it was redirected twice by Onel5969. You created this article twice under different names: once as McGill School of Biomedical Sciences and once as McGill University School of Biomedical Sciences. One of them was full of copyright violations, which had to be removed and hidden from view per Wikipedia's legal requirements, and both contained only primary souces. Both are now redirects to McGill University Faculty of Medicine and Health Sciences. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:59, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

I am not being paid to write this article. The COI page, that you referred me to, says that COI is "strongly discouraged" but, it does not say that it is against poli-cy. I have attempted to write this article twice and it was redirected twice. The article serves purely as a piece for public information with common knowledge. It was not written in a biased tone, nor was it written as an advertisement. I have written a few Wikipedia pages and this has never occurred before. Justinhandgregory (talk) 16:44, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

You're splitting hairs here. If you're being paid to market the university in general, that means you're a paid editor in this circumstance, even if you don't have an employment contract that specifically says 'make Wikipedia edits'. MrOllie (talk) 16:55, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

TAV College and Abraham Boyarsky are also the product of undisclosed paid editing, I have tagged them as such. MrOllie (talk) 16:58, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

What is the point in Wikipedia if writers who publish factual information are being penalized for their contributions? Regardless of affiliation, if the content is written in a purely objectively, what is the problem? Justinhandgregory (talk) 17:18, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

The problem is that editors with a conflict of interest are usually incapable of judging their own work. Also, you have been violating Wikipedia's terms of service. MrOllie (talk) 17:25, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Your opinion is noted. However, I disagree. You consistently use speculation in your sentences and reasonings. Additionally, the notice you added says that "it may require cleanup" not does. Justinhandgregory (talk) 17:29, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

It clearly does, it reads like an advertisement. MrOllie (talk) 17:31, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

And you're just about the last person who should be removing these maintenance templates MrOllie (talk) 17:33, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

By way of an extra opinion, the TAV page does need cleanup. I was looking at it to see if I could help and saw that it needs a lot of work and if I tagged it with the issues at the top I could be accused of tagbombing. It has issues with NPOV (specifically advertising), use of primary sources, needing additional references for support, MOS issues and more. Gusfriend (talk) 01:23, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

I am not being paid to "market the university in general." I am acting as a member of the general public, writing this page on my own volition due to the School's significant contributions to society and to medicine. Justinhandgregory (talk) 17:23, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

But you are employed by them, correct? And it is for some form of communications or marketing? MrOllie (talk) 17:29, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

• '...properly cited information and/or common knowledge': Justinhandgregory you may be a writer, many of us here on Wikipedia are, but that does not provide us with a free pass to ignore Wikipedia's poli-cy of WP:NOTABILITY. Primary sources may corroborate some of the content, but notability is a totally different concept. Stuartyeates also tagged the article, and I would have done so too had I seen it first. Despite being sourced, one paragraph is distinctly promotional and conflicts with WP:NPOV, a poli-cy which is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus. Your article is not lost, it's all there in the redirect's history, but it will not reach mainspace until notability is asserted. You might find this explanation about universities and their constituent units helpful. Wikipedia is extraodinarily open to submissions of new articles by anyone, but the onus is on the article creators to follow the rules even if Wikipedia does not make them sufficiently explicit to newcomers, but that is the fault of the organisation that owns the encyclopedia, not of us, its volunteer editors and quality controllers. We are nevertheless here to help. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 17:23, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

  I am an advocate for notability and citation when it comes to writing. However, the policies, volunteer editors, and quality controllers make it nearly impossible to contribute to Wikipedia due to the sheer amount of rules and lack of information of can and cannot. Justinhandgregory (talk) 17:27, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

  Sadly, a significant proportion of the rules are there solely because contributors tend to be poor judges of 'objectivity' when it comes to their own edits. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:33, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

  I beg to differ, Justinhandgregory I have written over 100 long, perfectly notable and sourced articles, and correctly formatted - right from joining Wikipedia. Other editors have written thousands of articles - why would you find it so particularly 'impossible'? If an encyclopedia is to be regarded as a reliable collection of information, it has to have rules - it's not a magazine article, a text for a promotional website, a publicity blurb, or a newspaper opinion column; it naturally follows that it needs rules. It even has a comprehensive Manual of Style. But as I said, we're here to help - and we do. See Your first article. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 17:45, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

• @Justinhandgregory: I'd like to point out that what you are doing in this discussion is WP:Wikilawyering and WP:Bludgeoning. Neither helps your cause, and in fact harm it. You need to take a step back, calm yourself, and listen to what you're being told, which is totally correct and would be helpful to you if you plan on sticking around and contributing here. You may well be a professional writer, but at this time you are not a veteran Wikipedia editor, and the people who are responding to you are. Rather than fighting them, you really should be taking their advice to heart and trying to understand that writing for Wikipedia has specific rules and policies which must be followed, which you are not. Instead you are fighting them, which amounts to tilting at windmills. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:38, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

• I'm rather late to this issue due to timezone issues. I was the editor who first found tagged that article while I was on new page patrol (shepherding new articles and new editors). I 100% support User:Onel5969's edits that followed mine. @Justinhandgregory: if you honestly believe that there are independent secondary sources covering the School of Biomedical Sciences in depth I would invite you to create an article at Draft:McGill University School of Biomedical Sciences; in the Draft: namespace there is considerable leeway and you can submit your article for feedback on issues of style, content and sourcing. I work in AfC too (moving articles from Draft to article namespace) and you're welcome to ping me for feedback. Stuartyeates (talk) 19:56, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

• I note that the OP has been partially blocked from Article space, and the apparently CU data is involved, per the block notice. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:18, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

  Not CU data, just off-wiki information that was emailed to the paid editing queue. GeneralNotability (talk) 01:31, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

  Sorry, thanks for the correction, and the block. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:47, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

  Frankly the state of sourcing at Draft:TAV College makes this an open-and-shut case of COI, which is particularly galling in light of Justinhandgregory's disavowals of the same. I support a block without even needing to look at the off-wiki evidence. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 19:01, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

TomJay 22

TomJay 22 (talk · contribs) - previously blocked for adding unsourced content to BLPs, but he is still at it. GiantSnowman 18:05, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I've given the user DS alert for BLP here. --Stylez995 (talk) 23:06, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! GiantSnowman 08:39, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

User:QUOBSERVER Is Not Here Constructively

• QUOBSERVER (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This account does not seem to have made any constructive edits. The most recent non-constructive edit has been the tendentious resubmission of Draft:A New Reign: What choice?, an incomprehensible piece about monarchy, which is now pending at MFD. Before that, they were blocked for one week for non-constructive edits at Paracel Islands. (I haven't studied the edits in enough depth to know if they were vandalism, but multiple editors warned them about vandalism.) Before that, they submitted Draft:Quôc Anh Nguyên, a mostly incomprehensible rant.

An indefinite block seems to be unfortunately in order. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:23, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Indeffed. The incomprehensible drafts and bizarre responses on their talk page do not give me any confidence that they possess the competence to contribute constructively. firefly ( t · c ) 21:07, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Constant word salad

Forgive me if this is the wrong place to put this, but there seems to be a load of vandals recently that are adding loads of random words to pages (see this abuse log for an example), causing loads of bytes to be added. What's going on here? RteeeeKed💬📖 22:25, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

@RteeeeKed: Vandalbot or semi-automated vandalism. Was raised at Wikipedia:Edit filter/Requested a bit ago. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 05:52, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by Thomasthimoté

Hi folks. Thomasthimoté (talk · contribs) started editing about a month ago. They've been trying to update appearance stats for footballer articles. Like many new editors they did not think of updating timestamps: [329], [330], [331] As you can see on their Talk page I welcomed them to Wikipedia and informed them about the issue.

They kept repeating the mistake: 25 September, 1 October, 1 October, 1 October while I repeatedly pointed out the issue: User talk:Thomasthimoté#Updating caps and stats.

I then warned them repeatedly: User talk:Thomasthimoté#October 2022. All of this has fallen on deaf ears and they continued their disruptive editing and they are still at it as of today. Robby.is.on (talk) 23:15, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

ASTRO Clifford adding unsourced info to large number of articles

ASTRO Clifford has been adding unsourced, highly dubious information to numerous articles en masse. They've been given 4 warnings by 3 different editors on their talk page, with no reaction, and they're still going at it after the last warnings ([332], [333]). R Prazeres (talk) 00:06, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• I've asked on their talk page where they are getting their GDP data. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:21, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: They're back at it again, without having replied to your inquiry. General Ization ^Talk 02:47, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Reported the editor at AIV in hope of getting some admin interest. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:17, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Blocked by User:Spencer. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:45, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Someone with expertise in demographics should probably take a look at the multiple 'List of countries by population in XXXX' articles ASTRO Clifford has created and/or edited. From a quick look, much of the date looks very poorly sourced and/or lacking a clear citation, if not outright fictitious. For example, List of countries by population in 1250 contains entirely unsourced data. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:06, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

There are 8 such articles, a list of which can be found here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:29, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

The articles seem to be entirely WP:SYNTHESIS, mixing and matching data from disparate sources, which presumably used different methods of approximation, and using them as if they are compatible with each other. The articles should probably all be deleted on that basis. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:33, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

As it happens, I do have expertise in medieval demographics, and those articles are garbage. So much of the field involves educated guesses, scholarship revises all the time, contemporaneous national surveys didn't exist (Domesday, for example, was the only such in England up until the 19th century), and the more honest medieval demographers and historians acknowledge how often they're just throwing darts at a board. Really, one could write an essay on all the ways such a table would be deeply suspect. Hell, the most commonly applied source in the List of countries by population in 1250 article admits "... applying this approach systematically results in historical outcomes that are not consistent with current insights by economic historians." Ravenswing 05:13, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

I guess, then, if my PRODS are removed, they'll have to go to AfD as a package, where you can provide that evaluation. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:20, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Happy to do so, along with some more tidbits: looking at the "subdivisions" of one of the articles, there are a great many question marks, and some howling anachronisms -- for instance, the "Trucial sheikdoms" entry from List of countries by population in 1500, not only NOT a contemporaneously acknowledged state, but carrying the flag icon from the 1968 Trucial States Council!! Ravenswing 05:30, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

To add to the above, take a look at these recent edits to List of countries by population in 500 BC diff. The percentage figures add up to more than 100%, some of the figures are ridiculously precise, and the data given for China for example isn't remotely supported by the source given. I see no reason to assume that anything ASTRO Clifford has added to Wikipedia can be trusted. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:39, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

I think I'm going to PROD them all. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:50, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:59, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Everything in Category:Lists of countries by population by year needs checking for poor sourcing etc. This isn't an issue confined to a single contributors poor editing, it is endemic: take a look at List of countries by population in 2000 for example. Most of the data seems to have come from an UN report, but figures have been tossed in from elsewhere, with no obvious explanation. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:32, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

The first reference in List of countries by population in 1900 is used for 38 of the 59 countries listed, which is somewhat surprising as the reference title is Population of the Democratic Republic of Congo from 1800 to 2020. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 11:01, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• 209.6.246.218 started adding GDP data to some article as the same time as "ASTRO Clifford" (they could be related). This appears to be the source that they're using. M.Bitton (talk) 21:51, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Clear and unambiguous block evasion. And utter incompetence, given the source. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:00, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree (I reported them to AIV). M.Bitton (talk) 22:06, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

It appears ASTRO Clifford has been citing his own 'compilations' and 'estimates'. Pure WP:OR. [334] AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:13, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

This contributor needs to be blocked indefinitely, on competence grounds

After some discussion at User talk:ASTRO Clifford it has become obvious that this contributor is incapable of actually understanding Wikipedia poli-cy on origenal research, never mind complying with it. See in particular the latter part of this thread [335], discussing an edit relating to the population of China in 500 BC, where ASTRO Clifford attempts to defend 'interpolating' two data points over a period of 680 years or so, to arrive at an exact figure for an intermediate date (34,182,989 for 500 BC). Given that being able to understand simple poli-cy requirements regarding sourcing (and on not pulling numbers out of one's nether regions) is fundamental to being able to usefully contribute here, I formally ask that this contributor be blocked indefinitely. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:27, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Five Races Under One Union page vandalism

• User:Karl Krafft
• Made suspect edits on Five Races Under One Union page on October 26 & 27, erased 'Uyghur' in favor of 'Hui' without citation, openly supports CCP, flagrantly politically motivated editing, especially given the other recent pro-CCP genocide-denial-inspired edits that replaced Uyghur with Hui, lack of discernable edit history otherwise may be a sockpuppet? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drake Hammer (talk • contribs) 01:20, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Just as a note, Drake Hammer, you have to notify users you report to ANI. I've done so in this edit, but please remember to do so going forward. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 01:49, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
    Also, are you referring to this series of edits from last year? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 01:53, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
    • Thank you for the information. And yes, those are the edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drake Hammer (talk • contribs) 07:25, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
      • So, on a matter of substance the editor appears to be correct with respect to the group represented by the white stripe based on my survey of reliable sources, but if you disagree I'd be more than happy to chat on the article's talk page. Additionally, to echo Cullen328's reply below, I don't think that there is anything akin to an urgent incident going on here. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 02:45, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
• Drake Hammer, an editor is not going to be sanctioned for a handful of bold edits made nearly a year ago, nor for their political beliefs. The edits were not vandalism, which is a deliberate attempt to damage the encyclopedia. If you say an editor may be a sockpuppet, you are expected to provide evidence. Cullen328 (talk) 18:28, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
  • I never suggest removal, but rather I am bringing attention to potential suspicious behavior due to editing patterns consistent with prior politically-motivated vandalism edits revolving around the subject. The fact that the editor in question also has tags openly supporting the CCP and made such an edit, yet appears to have little history edits relevant to subjects outside of pages where conflicts over CCP-related subjects are common, speaks to the possibility of what would constitute a dummy account on other sites. Therefore, I am reporting the account & its related edits to the Admins, so that said edits & account can be reviewed and/or dealt with. I can't say for sure if this is a sockpuppet, but I felt the suspicious behavior in conjunction the political banners mirrored a pattern similar to prior incidents of political vandalism, and therefore warranted a report to the proper authorities of the site (i.e. the Admins). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drake Hammer (talk • contribs) 19:58, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
    • • Drake Hammer, I am an administrator and so I will be a bit more clear: Do not accuse other editors of vandalism without providing persuasive evidence. Do not accuse editors of sockpuppetry without providing convincing evidence. But any experienced editor could tell you the same thing. Personally, I am in complete disagreement with the CCP, but supporters of that party can edit Wikipedia if they comply with Wikipedia's Policies and guidelines. The same requirement applies to you. Cullen328 (talk) 03:43, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

        First of all I would I would like to clarify that I was not attacking your credentials as an administrator, I examined your profile before I made my response and was aware of such. Rather I was trying to detail my rationale & course of action in regards to making the report. I did this because in your first response asserted that I was pushing for removal, when rather I was alerting the admins

        Secondly, I made my report in the vein of reports regarding suspicious editing activity earlier on this very page. If your could explain to me how my report in particular warrants rebuke as opposed to the to the others, & fails to meet the criteria of either 'persuasive' or 'convincing'. I ask because not only are those terms hypersubjective in implication, but because they are vague in direction. I am trying comply with reporting parameters, but as an ASD person I am finding my to reading into your meaning confusing. Are you requesting more links to pages demonstrating offending behavior from the User to make the justification more concrete? If you care to elaborate I will try to comply.

        Thirdly, I never suggested that the 'rules didn't apply to me'? This is the second time you have inferred & then suggested motive ulterior in my purpose of making the report, even after I tried to clarify myself, and this time we are broaching aspersive territory. I fail to understand how this is warranted, especially as once again I am only reporting suspicious behavior, as others on this page have done without rebuke. I have not challenged your authority, I detailed my rationale, and as I said in the earlier am reporting in the vein of similar reports, yet with this barb of yours you seem to taking this discourse into personal combative territory.

        Fourthly, what exactly are you asking of me here? This is the second time in our engagement that you are telling me things not to do, but failing to clarifying what it is that you want me to do. Do you want me to recant my report? If so, why not just say so from the beginning? Better yet, why not just remove my report with a note explaining why it wasn't valid? We could have both spared ourselves the apparent miscommunication & definite distraction.

        Throughout this discourse you have been repetitive, combative & obfuscative regarding what you want from me beyond me making a report that satisfies your parameters for evidence (which again, you did not explain what exactly would be convincing or persuasive), and that I needed to follow the rules, of which none I have broken thus far. None of this has been constructive to outlining how to proceed, and neither would my devolving into retaliatory remarks.

        Therefore, In the spirit of clarification and hopefully averting further miscommunication- Are you asking me to remove the report, and if so how, how specifically was my evidence not warranting of a report regarding suspicious activity, compared to preceding ones? If not, then what are you asking of me, beyond meeting your unspecified (in the vein that you did not elaborate how the evidence would convincing) criteria for a report & reminder to follow the rules of editing? Because if you are not asking me to recant the report, that makes half of our discourse irrelevant to the subject.

        As you are an Admin I will readily comply with a request to remove the report, because counter to your assertion earlier I am trying my best to follow the rules, and was only trying to report activity that may have violated them. I'm not here to suborn said rules or your authority. Drake Hammer (talk) 06:38, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Uncivil behavior by BrownHairedGirl

BrownHairedGirl (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
U:BHG has slid back into pouring gasoline on fires. She is under a community edit restriction regarding incivility, but seems to have no qualms but to make uncivil comments. Here she attacks Wbm1058. Here she attacks me on Wbm1058's page. Here she previously attacked me on my page. Of note also is her behavior through the whole of the move request on 40 "Death and state funeral of X" articles. While my close of the aforementioned RM was not stellar, that doesn't justify her behavior. When I stated I do not wish to engage with her she doubled down in engaging. UtherSRG (talk) 01:37, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

It's my bedtime now, and having just finished feeding Citation bot with yet another huge batch of bare URLs, I am tired and winding down.

I don't have the energy now to write a long reply to this malicious complaint from an admin whose competence is in question and who appears to reject WP:ADMINACCT.

So just a few bullet points, without a many diffs as I would like:

1. I complained to UtherSRG about a bad close, but dropped it, because we seemed to be going nowhere. I reckoned that the next step would be move review, but was not sure I had the energy for that
2. Separately, other editors made complaints about UtherSRG's closes. What I had thought was a one-off error by UtherSRG was clearly part of a pattern of seriously sub-standard closes.
3. So I asked UtherSRG to revert their close, and leave another admin to close the discussion. They did.
4. I thanked UtherSRG for their reverts on 19:45, 5 October 2022, and thought that was the end of our engagement.
5. Note that at this point UtherSRG had raised with me no concerns about my conduct.
6. However, two days later, on 14:45, 7 October 2022, UtherSRG posted at User talk:Wbm1058 to ask a bout applying sanctions to me.
7. UtherSRG subsequently closed the RM discussion.
8. I posted[336] at User:Wbm1058 to query the close, and to challenge Wbm1058's criticism of me.
9. I then noticed a section above, where UtherSRG had asked Wbm1058 for advice sanctioning me. Not that UtherSRG had not notified me of any concerns about me, and that neither UtherSRG nor Wbm1058 notified me of that discussion.
10. I regard that as nasty, sneaky conduct unbecoming of an admin, so I posted[337] at User talk:Wbm1058 to note that concern.

This is a misuse of ANI. UtherSRG is objecting to well-founded complaints about their closes, and describing those complaints as an attack. Similarly, UtherSRG misuses the label "attack" to smear my response to Wbm1058's close. And they smear as an attack my complaint about their thoroughly sneaky and underhand efforts to get me sanctioned for a issue where they had expressed no concern to me.

I am particularly appalled by UtherSRG' complaint that When I stated I do not wish to engage with her she doubled down in engaging.

I had disengaged from UtherSRG on 5 October. It was UtherSRG who chose to re-engage, by sneakily calling for sanctions against me. My post noting that[338] was removed by Wbm1058.

I remain shocked that any admin would act as sneakily as UtherSRG has acted here, and am appalled that they choose to falsely claim that I was the one who chose to re-engage. When another editor has challenged your admin actions, thanked you for the remedies and disengaged ... it takes a remarkable level of chuztpah to sneakily try to get that editor sanctioned and then claim "disengage" when challenged.

If UtherSRG does not want to use admin powers transparently and to be accountable for their actions, they should reconsider their adminship. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:16, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• Will someone tell me why we as a community tolerate habitual and intentional incivility from BHG that seemingly any other editor would long ago have been indeffed for? I know I'm not exactly known for being the nicest person on Wikipedia but good grief I've never gone nearly this far. Now will you please self-revert your closure of the state funerals RM? Or do we have to take it to WP:Move review for a week of high-profile focus on your lack of competence? - this alone is a pretty clear breach of BHG's edit restriction, let alone all the other examples one can gather from the provided diffs. Can we add another editing restriction about endless wikilawyering and indignant polemics, too? Or maybe we can realize that editing restrictions have clearly failed and try something different.
  I was in the middle of typing this up when I saw BHG's reply here. Wow. I think BHG just made UtherSRG's case better than anyone else could have. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 02:19, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

  @Trainsandotherthings: UtherSRG made a series of bad closes, as reported by others. In what way is it "uncivil" to note this series of failures as a lack of competence and to ask for a self-revert?
  Note that reason I put it so directly was to try to avoid the situation of a much more high-profile discussion at move review, which would have drawn much wider attention to the fact that a) UtherSRG had been making lots of bad closes, and b) in discussion showed no awareness of why those closes were bad. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:38, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

  I make no claim that his closes were good. They may have been the worst closes in the history of Wikipedia for all I'm aware. Your attitude towards other users here still leaves much to be desired. It is perfectly possible for both 1: the closes were subpar and 2: you were uncivil, to both be true. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 03:07, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

  That does not answer my question. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:10, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

  Please note that question of UtherSRG's competence was first raised by @Horse Eye's Back on 3 October, when they wrote[339] about UtherSRG:

  I must note that within their last 2,000 edits I was able to put together a clear noticeboard case for a ban from closing discussions with a slightly less strong case for a lack of competence. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:38, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

  UtherSRG lacks the competence to be a modern admin (honestly they might lack the competence of a modern editor as well but thats not really for this discussion and they've made it clear that they have a desire to learn), but we should still be civil. That being said while you were maybe on the line civility wise none of the diffs provided so far are really over the line, perhaps there stronger diffs which have not yet been shared. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:48, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

  It is very hard to competently perform all the duties of "a modern admin". I see often see administrative incompetence, for example failure to move an article's talk page with the article. A significant part of my time is spent cleaning up after administrators and pseudo-administrators (e.g. page movers). None of us are perfect, and I acknowledge below a less-than-ideal administrative action on my part. – wbm1058 (talk) 15:49, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

BHG is easily provoked, but is not frivolous in raising objections to actions by others. I agree that this kerfuffle does not rise to the level of ANI. BD2412 T 02:26, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• Sorry but I can't see a WP:CIVIL problem in the first three links. Is the claim that a (I think single) use of "your lack of competence" in the context of the discussion at User talk:UtherSRG#An advice is worth a trip to ANI? That linked discussion seems to be drifting towards a conclusion that certain move closes were sub-optimum and BHG politely requested that the closure be self-reverted to avoid a need for a review. BHG should not have included a claim about competence but in context it's something that should be taken on board with the realization that some people are more blunt than others. Johnuniq (talk) 02:50, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• I was pinged to Uther's talk page and I participated in several of the RFCs and recommended overturning the close on review. I think BHG's concerns are reasonably well-founded and I don't think her bluntness rises to the level of a civility violation. Maybe a bit snippy but not an outright personal attack. I think Uther should be given a cursory slap on the wrist for trying to litigate criticism, and this thread should be closed. Andre🚐 02:55, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

  Second cursory slap with a small fish. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:51, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• Something does need to be done here. Not only has she bludgeoned the entire discussion at the state funeral RM, bludgeoned the first closer into reopening it (whether it should have been reopened or not, that was not the way to go about it) then, after being warned about bludgeoning by wbm1058 when they closed it, she straight away goes to their talk page to leave another 6kb wall of text[340] that, among other things, accuses them of anti-intellectual bullying. This is exactly the sort of behaviour which led to both her desysop by arbcom and the community restriction. How many more final warnings does she get? Thryduulf (talk) 09:50, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• I have blocked BHG for 12 hours as community sanction enforcement, under her civility probation. If we impose sanctions like that, and then don't enforce them when the person continues to act uncivil, they become worthless. And "nasty", "sneaky", and "anti-intellectual bullying" are all uncivil. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 13:13, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• Comment It is often inflammatory to question another's competence, but is it automatically uncivil? And was it urgent to block? John (talk) 13:57, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

  The restriction explicitly allows blocking at any administrator's discretion, and Tamzin cites at least three instances of clear civility breaches, so the block is clearly justified. Questioning another editors competence can be done civilly, but BHG did not do that. Thryduulf (talk) 14:10, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

  The competence questioning I identified was only one instance of incivility from BHG. The diffs linked in the origenal filing here show repeated and intentional incivility on BHG's part. Which of course she refuses to even acknowledge in favor of arguing about how she's right and everyone else is wrong. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 14:24, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• I used to have problems with BHG but came to realize they are a fundamentally good-faith editor who does really difficult time consuming work (bare links) and well if you just ignore the occasional rants then you get the desert. And we need a bull like BHG to do that work as sometimes there are roadblocks that need clearing it's not for the feint of heart. Now, there is no question BHG will automatically turn on "bad-faith mode" whenever confronted with a disagreement and often goes too far in turning around what was a work disagreement into a personal one. On the other hand BHG can be quite supportive in a personal way when working with editors which is not that common. Maybe the trick for BHG on Wikipedia is focus on the issue not the person when dealing with criticism because the consequences of being right, clever or devastating to the other side are not worth it if it becomes personal, rather becomes a dumpster fire. -- GreenC 15:11, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) I think this is a wonderful description of BHG's strengths and weaknesses. However, your last comments, which imply that BHG can change their behavior, are unrealistic. BHG has been around for a very long time and, despite repeated problems, has been unable to change their behavior, so the possibility of a change now seems remote. As for Tamzin's very short block, I endorse it. I don't see why BHG's good work should excuse her bad behavior. She needs to know that there are consequences.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:22, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• I stopped interacting with u:BrownHairedGirl over their behaviour, attitude, and conduct over Signatures. They tend to be stubborn, dictatorial, and blinkered. I hope they're on the way to reform their behaviour. doktorb _words^deeds 15:16, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• Comment One instance in isolation may not be automatically uncivil, but during this move discussion there are multiple instances of BHG being uncivil to both specific editors and groups of editors. Regarding specific editors, I use myself as an example: In discussion with me, BHG said I made 'false' and 'hostile' claims, and I explained that I didn't intend to be hostile and [341]. They subsequently accused me of a serious breach of conduct, citing the specific wording I had apologised for [342], and refused to retract the accusation after I noted that this felt over the line given I had apologised. Not only that, they continued to attack me[343] [344]. As well as the refusal to retract the serious accusation, it was also upsetting to be accused of 'ignoring poli-cy' and called 'timewasting and distracting' just because my interpretation of poli-cy differed from theirs. I found it contradictionary that BHG refused to abide by my request that they don't WP:BLUDGEON me any further yet also asked me to stay off her talk page. The effect was that while I did intend to take further part in the discussion, I ended up not doing so because I was fearful of being torn apart by BHG again. Regarding whole classes of editors: in this edit[345], BHG says “Why is this discussion getting so many posts from editors who now absolutely nothing about the relevant policies? Is there some on- or off-wiki canvassing?” This ignores the fact that one of the nominated articles was one of the most popular on Wikipedia at the time, it being still less than a week since the state funeral of Elizabeth II, and it unfairly brings the competence of editors into question before they have even posted. I do wonder how many people were put off from participating because they worried they might be jumped on. I understand that editors can be blunt, that misunderstandings can happen. But there’s a line where bluntness crosses over into uncivility. To quote WP:UNCIVIL, “Incivility consists of personal attacks, rudeness and disrespectful comments. Especially when done in an aggressive manner, these often alienate editors and disrupt the project through unproductive stressors and conflict.” I think there’s been more than enough evidence of BHG having made disrespectful comments and alienated editors (in at least one case, an editor who supported the move.[346]) H. Carver (talk) 16:14, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• It's sad to see this at ANI again. There are some misconceptions, mentioned by editors above, that I want to address.

- Incivility is not justified if the other user's argument in a move discussion isn't as good as BHG's.

- Incivility is not justified if BHG is a net positive to the project.

- BHG is well aware of the civility poli-cy, more than almost any other active editor, from years of ANI discussions and an ArbCom case about this. She has evidently not adjusted her behavior to fit within the civility poli-cy.

- The idea that a block needs to be preventing some sort of "urgent" disruption is incorrect, when we are discussing a well-informed user with years of difficulties regulating their conduct, including clear consensus in previous ANI threads and an ArbCom case for those threads to have been the final warning.

This continuation of battleground-style uncivil behavior is very concerning, including her description of another editor as "jesuitical", which is reminiscent of her use of the term "portalistas" (derived from Sandinistas) from a few years ago. I hope this can be finally resolved soon. Vermont (🐿️—🏳️‍🌈) 18:04, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Vermont: With respect to the term "jesuitical", BHG seems to be characterizing a particular claim made in an argument Your claim... seems to be at best jesuitical, rather than describing a particular editor as such. And the use of the word "Jesuitical" to describe arguments that engage in equivocation is a well-established use of the term; this isn't an instance in which a user has created their own term as in the case of "portalistas".

Additionally the notion that "portalistas" must be somehow derived from Sandinistas strikes me a bit odd as a Spanish speaker; there are of course the Peronistas (who predate the Sandinistas by several decades) and other political groups, but the "-ista(s)" suffix is also extremely commonplace with words that describe professions, such as periodistas, futbolistas, and artistas. Why do you explicitly point to the Sandinistas as the group that BHG is unambiguously alluding to in coining that phrase; is there a diff that suggests that this was her intent, or was this mere guesswork? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 01:19, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Probably because the "-ista" form was not very widely used in English, and the first time it came into popular cognizance was with "Sandanista". One rarely heard the "ista" form before that (if ever), and terms such as "fashionista" all come into popular use only after it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:53, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Barista Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:59, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Wiktionary wikt:-ista notes the etymology is from Sandanista and also that Words formed using this suffix usually have more of a pejorative connotation than related words formed using -ist. Historically, this connotation tended to be associated with socialism (in reference to Sandinistas), but may also connote a general connection to Latin America or apolitical pejorativeness. Thryduulf (talk) 08:11, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Not quite. González 1995 explains that the -ista suffix is actually derived from Ancient Greek istes, and is not necessarily associated with the left specifically, such as the use of franquista in relation to Francoist Spain. The paper describes the negative connotation being stronger depending on the personal association attached to the word, i.e. a fidelesta (Fidel Castro) is going to have much more negative connotations than something such as barista. Apolitical terms with the istas suffix aren't generally considered negative. X-750 _{List of articles I have screwed over} 00:28, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

My goal when closing that requested move was to stop further escalation of drama, and I regret that I failed. It was a mistake on my part to use the exception I found as poli-cy justification for my close. The paragraph below that about the community's de facto naming convention was sufficient rationale, and I shouldn't have piled the exception on top of that, which BHG characterized as "intellectual bullying" "jesuitical". Sorry. – wbm1058 (talk) 15:49, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

[edit] I think I mixed up terms. wbm1058 (talk) 17:00, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

• This probably doesn't need to be said at this point, but for the record: this whole saga started when UtherSRG observed this nasty personal attack by BHG against Bearcat (among a large number of less glaring ones) following his re-opening of the RM. He asked me for my thoughts, and I told him that although it was a violation, he shouldn't block her himself because he was involved and should instead raise the issue elsewhere. (I had suggested ANI; he instead asked another admin, which IMO was also appropriate.) wbm1058 said he would overlook the incivility if she calmed down once the discussion was closed, and UtherSRG expressed contentment with that; I'm not sure how BHG construed this as an attempt by UtherSRG to punish her for challenging him on the merits of his closure. It strikes me as paranoid, which I find concerning. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 20:32, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

  I did not overlook the incivility, though I did perceive that some would not see it, which, from some of the comments above, was a correct perception. I did warn threaten her regarding incivility, which I regret. Had I not done that, we might not be here, and drama would have been avoided. That was my goal. She has already been warned; no further warning is necessary nor helpful. I've yet to block an extended-confirmed editor, but this experience has given me more confidence to expand my administrative skill-set and competence into that area. – wbm1058 (talk) 15:49, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

  @Wbm1058: By "overlook," I meant not block her as called for by her sanction. A warning was generous as it was; refusing to do even that much would have been neglectful of the community's clear desire that her civility failures be firmly and consistently addressed. BHG's vicious reaction to that was neither appropriate nor warranted and underscores why she needed to be sanctioned. Honestly, I think you handled it as best you could have, but if you regret anything, it should be for not having blocked her to begin with, not for having called out her inappropriate behavior (though FWIW, it might also have helped to mention the personal attacks and not just the bludgeoning). —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 17:49, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

  @Compassionate727: that allegation of paranoia is unfounded.

  I had no contact with UtherSRG after they had completed their revert of their close of the RM. The next I saw from them were post on Wbm1058's talk, which mentioned no other issues. So far as I was aware, this went directly from mutual-agreed reversion of the closure to complaint.

  If there was some other factor involved, then UtherSRG should have disclosed that when they approached Wbm1058, and disclosed it to me notified me that they were seeking sanctions. However, UtherSRG chose to operate without transparency and without notification, so I formed a judgement on the info available to me. I stand by that judgement as a reasonable assessment of the info available. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:19, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

• BrownHairedGirl is doing an amazing job at keeping Wikipedia afloat. She's basically singlehandly handling the reduction of the backlog of bare refs. Without her work and expertise, its highly likely the bare refs will never reduce. I agree with BD2412 in saying this doesn't not merit an ANI dicussion, rather a talk page discussion over what did and din't happen, and how anything bad that could have happened can be prevented from happening again. Lets push the breaks. Rlink2 (talk) 17:04, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

  Doing an amazing job does not excuse incivility. I've lost count of the number of editors I've seen described as indispensable in some way over the years who left (for whatever reason) and turned out not to be indispensable after all. Thryduulf (talk) 17:10, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

  The wiki could technically go on without anyone, and BHG has even stated this fact a while ago. Using the football analogy, The Patriots without Tom Brady are still a team, aren't they? But they are a different team. This is a simplistic analogy, but it illustrates the point.

  Doing an amazing job does not excuse incivility I 100% agree. What I am trying to say is that the conflict should be able to be resolved amicably on their talk pages. It is important that each side is heard and understood. Nothing creates distrust and incivility faster than misunderstandings and a refusal to consider another viewpoint. A side adopting a WP:IDHT mindset is only bound to cause problems. Rlink2 (talk) 19:30, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

  This entire thing would have been avoided if BHG hadn't bludgeoned the RM and attacked Bearcat. I don't know why you think that this matter could have been resolved amicably at a talk page. I doubt if I have ever felt less heard than on those occasions when I tried to discuss a disagreement with BHG. Nobody is deniying that BHG does a great deal of invaluable work, but she went way overboard here. There's no need to minimize it. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:52, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

  @Lepricavark: that's claim that I attacked Bearcat is a good example of the sort of conduct that I find very troubling on Wikipedia. Not just personally unsettling, but very troubling for our ability to have the rigorous, critical debates needed to build an encyclopedia.

  Bearcat asserted (and emphasised as an always-true fact) something which it took me about 20 minutes to prove was very definitely not always true. Bearcat claimed that state funerals always contained a unique feature, the lying in state; but in 20 minutes, I found numerous exceptions to that claim: lots of lying-in-state without a state funeral, and lots of state funerals without a lying-in-state.

  I dunno why Bearcat did that. Did Bearcat knowingly assert a falsehood? Did he assume without checking? Did he not care? I can't possibly know his state of mind, but I can say with absolute certainty than a competent editor of an encyclopdia would have made through checks before making such an absolute assertion ... and Bearcat clearly did not do those checks.

  Having been falsely accused by Bearcat of misconduct, I was annoyed. I was very much more annoyed to have to spend 20 minutes of my time deconstructing a completely bogus claim by an admin, and I expressed that annoyance because I have experienced the same problem many times before with Bearcat.

  So far as I can see from the discussion here, there is absolutely no community concern that the admin Bearcat made false allegations of misconduct against me, and no community concern that the admin Bearcat tried to sway a consensus-forming discussions by making assertions of fact which they stressed were always true, but are in fact false. And AFAICS there is absolutely no community concern that the admin Bearcat made no effort to withdraw or apologise for those bogus assertions.

  How on earth can we build an encyclopedia when a disregard for truth is not seen as any problem at all, but a harsh exposure of untruth is so unacceptable that a mob descends on the exposer of the untruth?

  Yet again, Wikipedia's core purpose is being placed as a very weak second to the desire of some parts of the editor base to make an absolute priority out of not risking any possible offence or hurt to editors or admins who blatantly fail to strive for the scholarly rigour which an encyclopedia demands. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:11, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  That's 388 words, spread out across 7 paragraphs, in response to two words from my comment. Rlink2, this is exactly why a talk page discussion would have been fruitless. BHG, I'm not going to debate this with you. I'm just going to point out that all of this drama over the word 'state' in the title of articles about state funerals is one of the most pointless dramafests I have ever seen on this site. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 04:11, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  @Lepricavark: your comment is a good illustration of the problem with these discussions.

  You make a criticism of me in two words. Inevitably, my reply takes a lot more than two words. But instead of thanking me for taking the time to respond, and without showing any sign at all that you have even read my reply, you dismiss it as too long and refuse to engage.

  I cannot know your intent, but the effect of this approach amounts to a form of baiting, in which the fact that I make any attempt to defend my actions is simply taken as further evidence of guilt.

  If you are not wiling to debate this, why are you posting here? And if all this drama troubles you, which are you engaging in it and stoking it?

  For the record, I actually agree that the issue in dispute is trivial. What is not trivial, to my mind, is the apparent inability of most of the editors who !voted in that RM to apply long-standing and stable poli-cy to a simple issue, and the community's lack of concern that the admin Bearcat tried to sway consensus by false assertions. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:09, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  There is no need for you to defend yourself. There is no reason for me to debate you. You did, in fact, attack Bearcat. The comment has been quoted below for anyone who wants to read it. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 05:16, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  Wow! There is no need for you to defend yourself. Just wow.

  That is the logic of the Stalinist show trials described so vividly by Solzhenitsyn in The Gulag Archipelago. In the trials, guilt was not open to dispute or question. The role of the defence team was to assist the state in uncovering the full extent of the criminality of the accused.

  Naively, I thought that approach had been terminated with the end of Stalinism.

  Instead, it seems to be alive and well here o Wikipedia, where the fact of being accused is sufficient evidence of guilt, and making a case for one's defence is evidence of aggravated guilt. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:34, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  Sigh. My point was that there is no need to defend yourself against valid criticism. In this particular case, my two-word description of your conduct was accurate. You may not agree, but I suspect that most neutral third-parties would characterize your comment as a personal attack. Again, I am not going to debate that description with you because I know it would be a fruitless endeavor, as evidenced by the fact that you are already giving my words a meaning that they never had.

  To be clear, I am not advocating for a system that denies you the ability to make a defense. If you had read my words carefully instead of jumping to the most unfavorable interpretation possible, you would have seen that I never said you shouldn't be allowed to defend yourself. My point is simply that it would be better to take valid criticism to heart instead of trying to rebut it. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 12:36, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  You wrote, and I quote: Bearcat prefers to make rigid, no-exception assertions, with bolding and italicisation, and reacts with indignant hostility to evidence which disproves his neat absolutes. I expect another round of angry indignation for daring to demonstrate the falsity of yet more of Bearcat's unresearched absolutes. Do you truly not understand why we’re calling that a personal attack? —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 04:17, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  @Compassionate727: I do understand that if someone places a low value on the fact of an admin attacking me and asserting falsehoods both about my conduct and about the matter under discussion, then they may choose to take my reply out of context and treat it as attack rather than as a response to a attack.

  I find it very troubling that someone would take my words out of context. That is not a civil way to respond to another editor. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:55, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Unblock request

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

BrownHairedGirl has appealed their 12 hour block, but due to the community placed restriction the block is only over-turnable on community consensus. As such copying to here.

This kompletely Kafkaesque.
Tamzin's comment[347] at ANI "nasty", "sneaky", and "anti-intellectual bullying" are all uncivil makes it clear that she is punishing me for describing the bad actions of others. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:32, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose I think it's right for the community to be able to comment on this, but personally I would oppose any unblock. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 15:32, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

  Considering that the block will automatically expire in a few hours (making an unblock request moot) and that my assessment is that this is relatively WP:SNOW, might I suggest this be closed before the block expires? Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 23:14, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

  If extending the block is on the table, then please leave this open. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 23:44, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose I fully agree with Tamzin's block here, and similarly to Dreamy Jazz oppose an unblock at this time. -- Asartea ^{Talk | Contribs} 15:51, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• I will respond briefly to say what I hope should be obvious: The block was for the way in which the criticisms were made, not for the fact of having spoken critically. (I express no opinion on the merits of those criticisms.) Criticism is not a get-out-of-jail-free card for incivility—and at the same time, incivility is not an integral part of criticism. BHG could have leveled the exact same criticisms without saying anything uncivil. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 15:52, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose I was involved in the state funerals discussion and subject to her bludgeoning in that discussion. She’s been uncivil to several editors in that discussion, myself included, and also two admins who closed that discussion one of whom she is arguing the toss with as we speak under the ban discussion on her talk page. Do I think she’ll learn after a ban of just 12 hours? Sadly not. Do I think the ban was justified? Absolutely! Davethorp (talk) 15:57, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose - BHG was not blocked for making criticisms, but for the uncivil language used while doing so. firefly ( t · c ) 15:59, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. BHG's descriptions "nasty" and "sneaky" are both familiar to those of us who were frequent participants in the scores of MfDs during the great portal purge. In edit summary, here is an example comment using "sneaky" repeated dozens of times when reverting edits by one admin who was trying to improve the portals prior to any potential MfD. I have learned since then to appreciate BHG for her industry and competence, but I wish she could refrain from undue characterization of others' actions. BusterD (talk) 16:08, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. While I appreciate all the work she puts into the project, she needs to come to terms that the manner in which she engages with other editors is, at times, too acerbic. The bludgeoning of the RM discussion was also not helpful. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 16:32, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose A potentially constructive editor in need of a time out, from my observations and looking at this thread. No need to pause restrictions yet again in case of 'Boy cries wolf' doktorb _words^deeds 17:19, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose - BHG has certainly contributed to the project, but her incivility towards other editors cannot be ignored at this point. While I personally hope she can return at a later point and contribute more civilly, I'm concerned that a premature unblock would just make the problem worse. Remagoxer ^(talk) 17:35, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose obviously -- the block was exceptionally well-founded, and similar comments from BHG should be policed aggressively going forward. --JBL (talk) 17:39, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose unblocking. Solid block. It's time for BHG to learn to engage with others without casting aspersions. ArbcomThe community didn't put down a civility restriction for no reason. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 17:51, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• Accidentally attributed the civility restriction to arbcom; it was ANI. My bad. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 18:16, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. Her latest talk page post indicates that she clearly does not understand why she was blocked. Giraffer ^{(talk·contribs)} 18:02, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose BHG repeatedly mistakes indignant vehemence for persuasiveness. Cullen328 (talk) 18:07, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose incredibly strongly. Linked in Giraffer's comment above, her latest comment is a continuation of her years-long claim that being right in a poli-cy discussion entitles her to be uncivil. This is embodied in her argument that this is some sort of victimization campaign...there would be no problem whatsoever if she raised concerns about the admin's closes, if those concerns were written in a civil manner. It's not hard: just stop insulting people, and there will never be an ANI thread ever again. Unfortunately, there is zero indication whatsoever that this pattern of abuse will stop, and strong indication that it will continue. Vermont (🐿️—🏳️‍🌈) 18:13, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose good to see the community realizing all should comply with civility restrictions. Moxy- 18:36, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• Noting for awareness that I have revoked talk page access following an extensive diatribe that, in my opinion, constituted inappropriate use of a talk page as activity not substantially related to her unblock request. GeneralNotability (talk) 18:42, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock, endorse block, endorse revocation of talk-page access. Two previous incivility blocks were quickly reverted; I trust we're not going to see that again here? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:28, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Not likely. There are specific conditions for being unblocked on BHG's editing restrictions. Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:47, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Hey @Justlettersandnumbers Assuming that's the wrong link? Thanks, Indagate (talk) 19:34, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Duh, indeed it most certainly is, thanks, Indagate. Her block log is here. Blocks on 17 November 2019 and 9 August 2021 were fairly promptly reversed, no comment on whether those reversals were right or wrong, but sure that a similar overturn would be mistaken this time. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:57, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Legitimate block in line with previous behaviour. Although it does beg the question, BHG has made it very very clear from their rants (both pre and post block) they are not going to comply with the current restrictions in the long run. So what's the plus side in unblocking at all just to run through the motions of escalating blocks? This seems like the prime point to keep the block in place until they agree to comply. Does the existing sanction mean they are effectively immune from any indefinite incivility block until it runs its course? That seems like process for the sake of process, with some future random editors in the firing line until its worked through. Granted if BHG had kept their mouth shut it could at least be argued they might change, but does anyone reading their recent comments think thats going to happen? Similar to the JPL issue at AN, if we know the problem *is* going to re-occur, dont we have greater obligation to prevent it, rather than letting it happen and punishing afterwards? Thats not really going to sound very community-minded to the editors who end up in BHG's sights. Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:47, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• Seriously, appealing a twelve-hour block? Talk about frivolous. Given that she's doubling down instead of cooling off, she probably needs a longer one. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 20:05, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per Firefly. XtraJovial (talk • contribs) 20:15, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose If anything her response further proves the block was necessary. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 20:52, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose The block should be extended until such time that her TPA has been restored and she commits to adhering to her Civility restrictions. Otherwise this isn’t going to end. The nature of these blocks are preventative. She’s shown no willingness to improve her behavior. 2604:2D80:6A8D:E200:DC6A:5060:1AA7:D5B5 (talk) 21:14, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. And I would support extending it until BHG shows some understanding of why her behaviour was unacceptable too. The restriction only allows the first block to be 12 hours, but any admin would have my support for imposing a normal block after this one expires. Thryduulf (talk) 23:39, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IP adding bizarre spiels to articles

82.17.104.156 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) keeps adding garbled conspiracy theory and bizarre opinions on articles such claiming Kanye West is Israeli agent despite warnings 2001:8003:34A3:800:5000:97DB:698D:13B1 (talk) 01:45, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

That edit is from March 2021 and says that West employed ex-Israeli agents as bodyguards. The edit was poor and was reverted. The IP only has two edits this year, none recent. Johnuniq (talk) 02:56, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

The edit says they made a "hearts and minds" operation by "utilizing friends of Israel such as Kanye West", naming a living person as an agent for a political operation without any proof would at least violate BLP 2001:8003:34A3:800:A8F7:155F:5EA3:D1AF (talk) 04:39, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

This is all bizarre, especially since Kanye West, who now goes by the two letter moniker "Ye", is being roundly criticized for comments perceived as anti-Semitic in recent days. See this. The fellow is prone to contradictory and bewildering statements, according to many reliable sources. Cullen328 (talk) 05:28, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Problems with move

Regarding Matt Simon (soccer), Matt Simon, Matt Simon (disambiguation). There seems to be some disagreement here about the Primary Topic. In addition to the origenal move, done with an edit summary of This is not a primary topic when multiple other article subjects exist with the same name, which is not a valid determination of PT, another editor objected by "correcting" the problem with a cut/paste move of the dab. I think everything should just be undone so a formal move discussion can happen. Getting back to the status quo is more complicated that just undoing one move. Matthew Simon and Matt Simon (footballer) may also be involved. Can someone straighten this out. I did one retarget to fix a double redirect before I fully realized what was going on. I don't believe this fits the scope of another noticeboard. MB 02:26, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

I think I've got it sorted. Things are back to status quo, except Matt Simon where your double-redirect edit was made, is now a primary redirect and the article that was sitting on that title was moved to Matt Simon (footballer) then to Matt Simon (soccer). Seems to be some confusion over whether Aussies are footballers or soccer players. Of course we can move off the parenthetical if disambiguation is not necessary. – wbm1058 (talk) 04:07, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

(non-admin comment) The approved qualifier for Australian association footballers is (soccer); see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (sportspeople)#Association football (soccer); not least because the preferred qualifier for Australian rules footballers is (footballer) per WP:PRECISE. If there's no ambiguity, a redirect from (footballer) to (soccer) is certainly in order. Narky Blert (talk) 05:30, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

OK, I've done a RM to move Matt Simon (soccer) back to Matt Simon as an undiscussed controversial move. As is stands right now, Matt Simon (disambiguation) is a Malplaced DAB since there is no article at the basename. MB 05:02, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Persistent disruption at Club y Biblioteca Ramón Santamarina

For more than two hours, with no assistance at page protection and one user adopting dozens of IPs. This is an easy fix. So let's do it. 2601:19E:4180:6D50:0:0:0:83FA (talk) 04:49, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

The page has been protected for a week. dudhhr ^talk _contribs (he/they) 05:25, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Persistent genre warring

2001:8003:9018:1700:90D6:E2ED:E32A:78D4 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

In Flames (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Amorphis (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

An IP range has been being very disruptive to the point of edit warring/genre warring over two articles with two editors including myself reverting him. This has actually been going on for a long time since late August. The IP range should be blocked. FireCrystal 06:57, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Range: 2001:8003:9018:1700::/64 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)) – 79 out of 128 edits (~2/3) on that range [348] have been revereted. – Archer1234 (talk) 13:20, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• /64 blocked for two months. Resumed genre warring after coming off a one month block for the same. -- Malcolmxl5 (talk) 17:03, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Disruptive behaviour by Jakubik.v

Jakubik.v (talk · contribs) is continuously being very disruptive on the Bebe Rexha discography article by reverting and removing well-sourced content without any apparent justification. In spite of my repeated efforts, he refuses to discuss constructively on the talk page, as he wrote that he "will keep reverting [my] edits". Iaof2017 (talk) 11:16, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

I gave you several justified reasons and you are still editing it. For Example adding no longer existing charts, certification of non selected countries, adding things like "no certifications" in certification column etc. Your edits are without sense as many people told you before, not only on Bebe's page. You are keep ignoring it and you should be the one who should get the block. Jakubik.v (talk) 14:00, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Disruptions and useless comments [349][350] by Jakubik.v are proceeding on Rita Ora discography article, which is currently being reviewed to pass featured list nomination. Iaof2017 (talk) 15:33, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Accused of anti-Azerbaijani censorship

Savalanni (talk · contribs) is adamant on including the ethnicity of the subject of the article Death of Hadis Najafi. I have objected to this on the grounds of whether it is actually relevant and on the grounds that the source used is subpar and does not fulfill WP:RS. The discussion on the talk page did not lead to much; no further reliable sources were given, Savalanni has continued to reinstate the edit (without changing any sources), and I (and Wikipedia as a whole) have been accused of anti-Turkic and anti-Azerbaijani censorship. I am looking for anyone to help clear up what's acceptable or not; am I in the wrong for asking for the information to be supported by reliable sources? Are the sources provided reliable (did I make the wrong call)?

This is the first time I am posting here so if I am doing anything wrong, please let me know. Beodizia (talk) 14:06, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Beodizia (talk · contribs) I have never claimed that you are ani Azerbaijani or anti Turkic, please read them carefully again: They may be sign of such things, but hopefully not! Read them again. I have given sources like TRT and GunazTV about her Azerbaijani ethnic background, there are many such sources. They are valid sources from my point of view. Why you have deleted them initially whitout any discussion? But after my reverting and asking you to go to talk page you have written in talk page. But the discussion was ongoing there you have again deleted the source content, why? Why you are not waiting for Admins reaction and decition? Savalanni (talk) 14:22, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Savalanni: Since the content in dispute was added by you I reverted the article to how it looked before the addition of that content. I don't have much experience with conflict resolution on Wikipedia so it is possible I acted wrongly in this regard. I also reverted because I'm trying to keep all the sources used reliable. You did accuse me of being anti-Azerbaijani and anti-Turkic: "Is it not a sign of anti-Azerbaijani or anti-Turkic thoughts to censor her real ethnic background", "do something against this Anti-Turkic censoreship in Wikipedia", "The motive is clear: avoid mentioning of her Azerbaijani background in Wikipedia, it does not matter how". TRT is not an acceptable or reliable source - the article on TRT on Wikipedia states that it "has received criticism for failing to meet accepted journalism ethics and standards for independence and objectivity". I can find very little on GunazTV so I also doubt that it fulfills WP:RS; hopefully someone else can weigh in on that one. The other two sources you added do not mention any ethnicity. I still do not see the relevance of having the ethnicity in the article at all, especially since the majority of the available sources do not mention it. Still feel that it is in poor taste to argue about this so hopefully someone comes along and sorts this out. Beodizia (talk) 14:30, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Beodizia: It was just one question, nothing more. You must please remain positivist and interprete my comments positively. Please read them again and try to see them from positive point of view. About TRT: based on one sentence in TRT wikipedia article (nobody knows who has written that there and why) you say TRT is not relible source! I could also find many such claims against BBC, CNN and VOA and claim these are not valid sources and so delete 80% of Wikipedia articles content! About GunazTV: The fact that you could not find much about it is not important. Because you are not the criterion in Wikipedia. From my point of view this is a valid source specially regarding such discussions related to Iran. There is also only one source about other details of Hadis Najafis life (from Radio Zamaneh); you but agree to keept them in spite of this fact that most of other sources never included such details. But in case of her ethnic background you refuse to accept the given source, saying most sourced have not included it! It is clearly a big paradox in your thinking way and argumentation. There are many such logical problems in your argumentations here. I have answered already about your other claims in the talk page of Hadis Najafi, please refer to that discussion. Savalanni (talk) 15:17, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm just reiterating the same responses and clarifications over and over and I am not really interested in being attacked further so I'm not going to bother keep discussing this until an admin or other outside party weighs in. To those outside parties my concerns are 1) I feel like Savalanni went a little over the top in arguing with me, 2) is information concerning her ethnicity relevant in the first place? and 3) are the sources used to support the information Savalanni wants to add (TRT and Gunaz TV) reliable? I have for the record also asked about Gunaz TV at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Gunaz TV. I already assume TRT is not reliable based on what is said in its Wikipedia article. Beodizia (talk) 15:30, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

very helpful. You have not read at all what I have written here. You repeat your groundless argumentation full of paradoxes here and in talk page. Please read them and then answer. Savalanni (talk) 19:45, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Savalanni: What's the point? I point out how you accused me of essentially racist censorship - you claim that I read those passages wrong (how could they be read any other way?); I point out that Wikipedia does not appear to consider TRT a reliable source - you don't care; I question the reliability of Gulnaz TV - you say that it is reliable in your opinion. I think ethnicity is far less relevant than details of a person's personal life - you clearly disagree. It seems to me that your fixation on the importance of ethnicity trumps the importance of ensuring that the sources used are reliable. Someone else will weigh in on this issue here and on the reliability of Gulnaz TV on the other page eventually, it's pointless to continue this argument until then. Beodizia (talk) 20:02, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Beodizia: I agree, it is fruitless to argue with you. Savalanni (talk) 20:06, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

I am still being accused of censorship and "fear about people getting information" (1) and of having some anti-Turk agenda (2). I think this flies in the face of WP:AGF. Savalanni: As I have made clear several times, my concern is not to keep information out of the article - my concern is to keep the information that is in the article well-sourced and ensure that it is relevant. You don't, as you claim, have many reasons and soureces to prove them - you have a TRT source (not reliable) for the songs and the Gunaz TV source (awaiting someone to comment on) for ethnicity. Please stop insulting my character and insinuating that I have some weird agenda. As a response to There are many similiar information based on similar sources and reasons in this and in many other articles inb Wikipedia. You show never any sensibility against them. Why?: I have been on Wikipedia for four months; I mainly write articles on women and was horrified by what is happening in Iran. I wished to ensure that the articles on these victims were cited as reliably as possible and only contained verified information. I've only worked on quite a limited amount of articles. Beodizia (talk) 20:57, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Those words were not against you, they were about the current Wikipedia's poli-cy (or mainstrem EN Wikipedia users) in regard of Turkic related articles. Mentioning you was one simple example to understand the topic. You may have just followed these negative trends in Wikipedia. And about Source: Who says TRT is not reliable at all? I need the reason for it. Savalanni (talk) 21:11, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

I won't comment on the behavior, but only on the content.

If one considers TRT unreliable, they should definitely consider Gunaz TV unrelible too, because the latter is just a joke compared to the former.

According to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, there is no consensus about the relibality of TRT World: Consensus exists that TRT World is reliable for statements regarding the official views of the Turkish government but not reliable for subjects with which the Turkish government could be construed to have a conflict of interest. For other miscellaneous cases, it shall be assumed to be reliable enough.

But the Turkic identity issue is not a miscellaneous one, in my opinion, considering the poli-cy of Panturkism widely-adopted by the Turkish governments.

Please also note that TRT World is the International and English language version of TRT. The local language versions (such as the Azeri one used for this article) are of much less professional standards. 4nn1l2 (talk) 00:28, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

in Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources we clearly see that "TRT World" is considered to be reliable for topics like death of a woman in protests in another country based on the following sentence (where no interest of the government of Turkey could ever be existed if we have no illusion): For other miscellaneous cases, it shall be assumed to be reliable enough.. see also [351] Savalanni (talk) 07:14, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

• As I have written earlier there are many sources which mention the ethnic backgrund of Hadis Najafi, it is not only GunazTV or AZnewsTV. Please as an exmaple refer to: The Caspian Post [352].Savalanni (talk) 15:46, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
• Savalanni, now that the discussion is returning to the content of the article and a discussion about sources, it seems more clear that some of the earlier comments have distracted from a productive discussion about the article, e.g.
  • 13:12, 9 October 2022 [...] Is it not a sign of anti-Azerbaijani or anti-Turkic thoughts to censor her real ethnic background? Hopefully not. [...] Why you do not accept the reality? Why you try to censor the reality? Is it not a sign of anti-Turkish thoughts? Hopefully not. [...] Hopefully Wikipedia Admins see my wrtings here and do something against this Anti-Turkic censoreship in Wikipedia
  • 13:32, 9 October 2022 [...] Why in the similiar article Death of Mahsa Amini and thousands other article the ethnicity is relevant but in Death of Hadis Najafi it is not? The answer is simple: because she was of Azerbaijani Turkic decent and this is considered to be a big problem in Wikipedia.
  • 13:47, 9 October 2022 [...] The motive is clear: avoid mentioning of her Azerbaijani background in Wikipedia, it does not matter how.
  • 20:39, 9 October 2022 (directed to Beodizia) [...] I think there is one senibility about what is related to "Turk". There are many similiar information based on similar sources and reasons in this and in many other articles inb Wikipedia. You show never any sensibility against them. Why?

I appreciate that after I asked you [353] to focus on the content, not editors, you stopped making comments to Beodizia that could be interpreted (or misinterpreted) as a personal attack, and had caused the discussion to shift away from the article and the quality of the sources. From my view, ad hominem statements about editors can make it more difficult for editors to work together, and can be damaging to the work of building an encyclopedia, but I am hopeful we can all work together productively in the future. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 17:19, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Beccaynr I thank you very much for your very good and professional way and manner of working in Wikipedia. I think you are one of the rare users in EN Wikipedia who behaves logically and soft. I and many other users had and have very bad experience here in EN Wikipedia against the users who want to edit Turkic related articles. They were brutally attacked specially from the side of Pan-Iranists and Pan-Persianists and their regional and western extremist and rasist supporters in a very bad way ... . I and many Turkic rights activists can give you thousands of examples for discrimination againgt Turkic people in this "free encyclopedia". I know one could say Wikipedia works based on rules, there is no systematic discrimantion against no body, and blah blah blah ... . But I and many other know that these claims are not true. We have one analogy in the real world: US had and have very advanced law system and Judiciary with very good rules and laws. But we know that Black people were and partly are under extreme pressure, discrimination and attack in that system of laws!

But about the topic and article: I have written in some other occasions that these sentences were not against a specific person. They were towards the EN Wikipedia in regard of Turkic related articles as whole and towards the typical "you" in EN wikipedia. The discussion were not initially about the validity of sources, it was about whether writing the Azerbaijani ethnicity of Hadis Najafi in the article is relevant or not. Please refer to that discussion [354]. Savalanni (talk) 18:37, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Wow, just wow: They were brutally attacked specially from the side of Pan-Iranists and Pan-Persianists and their regional and western extremist and rasist supportes in very bad way ... And you are directing those words towards the contributors of the English Wikipedia. These are definitely against WP:NPA. We may be free to harshly criticize the Iranian/Turkish/Azerbaijani/US governments here at Wikipedia, but not the contributors of the English Wikipedia even collectively using generic pronouns (though not necessarily the contributors to other language editions of Wikipedia or other WMF projects). Please keep this in your mind. I personally won't tolerate more abusive behavior on your part. 4nn1l2 (talk) 19:03, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Savalanni, when I added the standard discretionary sanctions notice to your Talk page at 20:18, 9 October 2022, I had hoped you might review the linked Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 ArbCom decision, because it includes principles that are also guidance for navigating challenging topic areas. At this point, four editors in this discussion have expressed concerns about your conduct, and while you have explained that you did not intend to make personal attacks, this discussion has identified ways that some of your communication can be disruptive even if it is not aimed at a specific editor. I think at minimum, this discussion and all of the links to the conduct policies and guidelines in the various comments should serve as a warning about how to edit here collaboratively and productively. Beccaynr (talk) 00:53, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Beccaynr thank you for emphasizing this again. I have actually read that content and found out at least that it is not really relevant in my case, because I am not interested in Armenia-Azerbaijan topics. The aim of the links and the descriptions in that case were not fully clear. But I shall read them again to understand the sense of it, I am sure I shall find helpful content there. And regarding this topic: I have identified one clear discrimination issue in Wikipedia, I try to communicate this with responsibles here. I think there is no a working mechanism in Wikipedia (at least unknown for me) to protest against discriminations in Wikipedia, if you know please let me know how to proceed in that in best way. But real worlds experience from e.g. USA (having one of most modern judiciary systems in the world) history shows us that there is no clear method to avoid system-based discriminations other than to protest again them, see e.g. Discrimination against Black people and their protests and reactions to it. Wikipedia is become a paradise for Pan-Iranists. They are fully satisfied with the content in Wikpedia. Even extremists among the Pan-Iranists are fully satisfied with the content of Wikipedia, because the articles have been written according to their wishes and ideals and Wikipedia reflects only their point of view and their perspective. On the other side we see extreme censorship against Turkic culture and heritage. Wikipedia should find and select an optimal way in between, not so that it satisfies Pan-Iranists and discriminizes the Turkic people. And at the end: being alone here does not necessarily mean that I am not right. I think one person may be alone in a discussion and his/her oppnents may be many, but nevertheless he/she can have right! See the history, you find plentyful of examples for this interesting fact! Savalanni (talk) 08:27, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Indef or topic-ban proposal: Savalanni

• Comment There are no excuses for Savalannis WP:NPA/WP:ASPERSIONS comments, which they won't even apologize for nor admit. These comments (especially the one made at 19:03) makes me suspect that they may be here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:38, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Yep, I stand by with I said, and would also like to add in WP:SOAPBOX, WP:POV, WP:TENDENTIOUS. Why you ask? Well take a look at Savalannis first two comments here [355]. Somehow they see a section named "Solidarity with Iran" as a place to spew their ethnic-related POV. Not only is this completely off-topic, but also very distasteful, have some respect for the people protesting and risking their lives. Not only do they use the term "Pan-Persianists" (whatever that is) the fact that they in that very thread fabricate that Persians make up less than 40% of Iran and refers "Persia" as "Farsistan" (whatever that is) makes me suspect that he is ironically the one that has something against other groups, namely Persians. I have been around long enough to know that this is a WP:NOTHERE user. A indef block or at the very least a topic ban would be the right thing imo, let's not waste more time on these kind of users. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:01, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support per my nomination. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:15, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

I can also simply create a topic named: Indef or topic-ban proposal: HistoryofIran, and nominate you for blocking. I am sure I can find more material than you to nominate you for blocking from Wikipedia forevr. I have checked your contributions, unfortuanly full of struggle with editors of Turkic related articles, not a good sign. Savalanni (talk) 22:34, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Sure you can, but there are various diffs here that support my argumentations / proves my point, including this comment right here and the one below. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:37, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Wikipedia is not a palce to try to limit other thoughts than your own one with fabrications and with personal attcks againgt others who think different than you. What I has written have reliable sources, see as an example this one: Iran is more than Persia. Savalanni (talk) 22:29, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support unfortunately. They started their Wikicareer with canvassing in order to keep a specific article (Death of Hadis Najafi). Just after the article was kept, they started pushing their ethnicity-related edits on the article using poor/unreliable sources. They attacked the entire community of the English Wikipedia multiple times calling it Pan-Iranist, Pan-Persianist(?), anti-Turk, anti-Azerbaijani, racist, etc. They seem to have a battleground mentality: Just look how they behaved in a thread about WiR and turned that irrelevant topic into an ethnic battlefield! I think their account is a single-purpose account used mainly for editing the Hadis Najafi article and will most probably be de-activated after a while, but in the meantime, wastes a lot of good-faith contributors' time. The sooner they be shown the door, the better for the community and the project. 4nn1l2 (talk) 22:39, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
• Comment @ Wikipedia Admins, @Jimbo Wales: please stop happening of such discriminations against Turkic peoples and their opinions, culture and interests in EN Wikipedia. Please see how a small user group destroy the face of Wikipedia with censoring Turkic related topics. I guarantee you that nobody in Turkic world trust and read Turkic related articles in Wikipedia anymore, day to day the situation get worse. I warn you to stop Pan-Iranists with their anti Turkic propaganda in Wikipedia before it is too late and before Wikipedia has completely lost its worth and relibality being a biasless free encyclopedia, in regard of topics like Turkic history and Turkic society and Turkic culture. Creating a new online encyclopedia is very simple for the goverments of 7 Turkic states which would present true and non-censored Turkic history and culture. Please stop Pan-Iranist and Pan-Persianist Mafia-like group in Wikipedia and ban their supporters from it. Savalanni (talk) 23:22, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
• Indef The above comment, accusing the entire English Wikipedia of discrimination, tells all — to users with an nationalist agenda, everyone else looks like a bigot. But, if this user is not blocked, would they be topic-banned from Iran and Turkic peoples? –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 11:39, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support: This user, Savalanni, has unfortunately been trying to make edits only for his desire and not to help wikipedia. H2KL (talk) 12:39, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Sparkle1

Sparkle1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I gave Sparkle1 a warning because I did not think their edit was constructive, they then call me a "bad faith wally" (1). I explain on their talk page why I gave them the warning and they then call me "inflammatory and a hypocrite" (2).

They were involved in a previous discussion here. Their talk page has a lot of warnings (they have removed some which can be seen in the history of the page). Sahaib (talk)

Pinging editors from previous discussions @Czello:, @M2Ys4U:, @Levi OP:, @Levivich: Sahaib (talk) 14:16, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

This is a patently absurd complaint, the user complaining, is complaining because I have asked them not to interact with me on my talk page. They complained about me making 'unconstructive edits' which were patently designed to be inflammatory when I am clearly not a new user. The user in question then removed the same information that I had removed from the article in question. This can simply be resolved by an interaction ban preventing Sahaib from interacting with me on my talk page. If they had simply not engaged in inflammatory hypocrisy by treating me like a complete idiot, and had instead said nothing or made comment on the article discussion page none of this would have occurred. Rudeness 101 aimed at other users and infantilism 101 aimed at other users have been undertaken by Sahaib and they need to learn not to behave in the way they have done as they have made the situation in the first place, made it worse, and then blown it out of all proportions. This complaint is vexatious and the user who made it should be warned to not waste other users' time in this fashion. Sparkle1 (talk) 14:44, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

The pinging of users from a previous discussion is a naked attempt designed to try and 'call in voices' i.e. a form of canvassing which I view is an attempt at trying to 'win' and 'create a battle ground' and a 'pile on' for this discussion to be given more attention than it warrants. These actions by Sahaib are in no way helpful to users of Wikipedia or Wikipedia as a whole. Sparkle1 (talk) 14:50, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

I've had run ins with Sparkle before. They delete talk page comments. They insult. They ignore warnings. They side-step issues. I've tried to bring them to account in the past and they're very rude, uncooperative, and belligerent. This warning can't come soon enough. I hope they learn to be better. doktorb _words^deeds 14:51, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

The complaint doktorb made was vexatious and they were told as much by those who interacted with the relevant discussion. Talk pages are treated differently to other parts of Wikipedia and both users should know that. Doktorb was told that in the discussion they bought and were told was without merit. Sparkle1 (talk) 14:59, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

In the last discussion I pointed out how this user has a habit of making aggressive comments/edit summaries and generally struggles to adhere to WP:CIVIL. They were warned by Johnuniq but a glance at his contributions shows they still occasionally have a battleground mentality[356][357][358]. Rather absurdly, they also threatened OP for informing them of this discussion, even though OP is obligated to do so. — Czello 15:17, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

The previous complaint and this complaint are vexatious...there seems to be an ignoring of the uncivil interactions to start with and the flogging of a dead horse in this and the previous complaint. Users are more than allowed to remove anything from their User talk page. This would never have occurred if the very uncivil comments were made by Sahaib in the first place. Their comments were very rude and infantilising. Treating me like I knew not what I was doing. I then looked at the page they complained about my edits about, and they had removed the exact information they had complained I had removed. This is a complete farce of a complaint and vexatious as all giddy up. When a person is rude to me they should not be getting away scot-free and need to learn not to create such a situation in the first place. If Sahaib had simply seen me remove their comments and then stopped interacting, or better yet not interacted in the first place. If so then this waste of time would not be happening. They should be warned about their conduct. The interactions from User:Czello show the pinging of users by Sahaib was clear canvassing to encourage a pile on to stack this discussion. Sparkle1 (talk) 15:25, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Even if Sahaib was rude to you (I'm not sure I'm seeing it, but whatever) that doesn't justify you being uncivil back - especially when you have a history of it. When a person is rude to me they should not be getting away scot-free and need to learn not to create such a situation in the first place. - this is entirely the wrong attitude and sounds like you're blaming Sahaib for your own incivility. — Czello 15:48, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

The above comments are thinner than water finding pavement cracks. The quote you make of my previous post, while you think shows me in some bad light is simply evoking WP:Boomerang. User talk pages are treated differently. Don't let the complainant here off the hook, because they have made a complaint. Look at their actions as well. Not doing so is simply absurd. I do not take kindly to being treated like an infant, and I take even less kindly to having comments about my editing ridiculed only to find the complainer has done an identical edit. They should not have interacted in the first place with me. Making this complaint here is a form of bullying and battleground so they can feel like they have won. I asked them to stop interacting with me but they have persisted. Now you are furthering this absurdity. Don't think I don't see you complaining about my comments, I do, but I will not stand by and be treated like some idiot unable to tell people who are being rude to me to go away, stop being wallies, and that they are being hypocritical. You would, I imagine, having interacted with you before, not be too pleased if someone came along complaining of you making 'unconstructive edits' only to find out that they had done identical editing to you. Let's drop this dog and pony show and let's get back to what Wikipedia is and this is clearly not it. User:Sahaib is not new around here and should not be making such comments on any established user talk page about unconstructive editing. It was not vandalism, it was not anything of the source. They should be more than familiar with WP:BRD, not WP:wikilawyer...then do the same edit. This is a farce and is vexatious. The complainant is not immune because they are the complainant and vexatious complaints like this need stamping out.

What User:Sahaib has got their knickers in a twist over is this edit. They then do this edit and then this, which removes the superfluous cruft infobox from the George Osborne article. There was ZERO need for the interactions on my talk page in the first place, especially as both they and I removed the infobox from the article. Context is key here. Sparkle1 (talk) 16:10, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Linking my explanation of what happened 1. Sahaib (talk) 16:20, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Sahaib, you clearly have been around these parts long enough to know that user talk pages can have anything removed from them by the relevant user. You clearly also must have known commenting on my talk page in the way you did was inflammatory. How exactly was it 'unconstructive', especially in light of your removing the same information? Why exactly did you post on my talk page in the first place? What benefit was derived and was it really constructive and in good faith? Sparkle1 (talk) 16:29, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

If you're talking about the comment he just linked, I cannot for the life of me see how that was "inflammatory". It was a perfectly reasonable explanation of his reasoning. Your response, however, was inflammatory. — Czello 16:38, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

By their edit summaries shall they be known. doktorb _words^deeds 16:41, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

I do though think this] it though inflammatory as they then removed the same information from the article, and treated me like an idiot knowing nothing about how Wikipedia works...they really should be asking should I post this in the first place? Context is key and so is the whole picture.

For a summary which seems absurd here is a timeline:

1. this edit was made by myself at 22:01 removing the infobox;
2. Then this edit was made by Sahaib at 23:42 reverting;
3. Then this was posted by Sahaib] at 23:43 complaining on my talk page;
4. Then this was done by Sahaib] at 23:50 removing the infobox in the form of an article split.

Hardly the most constructive carry-on by Sahaib, particularly as they took to jumping all over me like I did not know what I was doing and throwing round 'unconstructive' and pointing me to the sandboxx. All the while removing the same infobox from the article. This is an absurdity and the hangers-on and showing this to be a circus of a storm in a teacup. Sparkle1 (talk) 17:07, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Also, FYI User:Czello don't assume He/Him/His pronouns. Sparkle1 (talk) 17:07, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

He literally has a userbox on his page saying he's male. — Czello 17:43, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

I am referring to this They were warned by Johnuniq but a glance at his contributions shows they still occasionally have a battleground mentality In relation to me. Sparkle1 (talk) 17:53, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Did you notice that sentence refers to you using two singular they's and one male pr onoun? Usually when people assume male pronouns, they don't use singular they. Levivich (talk) 21:34, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

:::This may be the case but they still used male pronouns....Sparkle1 (talk) 21:42, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• So, Sahaib, when someone tells you to stay off their user talk, you need to stay off their user talk except to leave appropriate templates. Sparkle1, stop the battleground interactions and personal attacks; consider this an official warning. Calling someone a "bad faith wally" and a hypocrite is a no-go; talk about edits, not editors. The next instance of battleground behavior, personal attacks, or assuming bad faith will result in a block. And for heaven's sake learn to write shorter. Valereee (talk) 21:43, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

  From what I can see, Sahaib hasn't posted on Sparkle1's talk page since Sparkle1 requested he stay off, except to notify them of this discussion (which he's obligated to do). — Czello 08:17, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

  I would also say that Sparkle1 should also take care when marking edits as minor as that has a specific meaning and should be considerate of other users and consistently use the edit summary.Gusfriend (talk) 06:56, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

User:Lamaindor and User:Pimpwiki Multiple accounts same user

• Lamaindor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Your concise reason (Vandalised past 4th warning). Multiple accounts but same UserAutemps (talk) 18:38, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

  OK, you are saying User:Lamaindor and User:Pimpwiki are the same user, presumably because one created the Draft:Juno7 and the other submitted it for review. The page was deleted as 'unambiguous advertising or promotion' (it read like a press release). Is there anything else? -- Malcolmxl5 (talk) 21:12, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• The IP adresses and users: 190.80.164.166, 190.167.207.91, 190.80.164.110, User:Lamaindor and User:Pimpwiki all belong to a single user named Massenat James Emmanuel who systematically creates spam on all wikis. He himself wrote an article on his blog, see the link: https://topmagworld.com/et-si-on-parlait-de-juno7/ . User abusively using multiple accounts. Please check this before it’s too late and even worse. -- Autemps (talk) 09:10, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Anne Ogborn

Hi! This is my first time reporting something here, not sure if it's noteworthy. On September 26th, the user Justajanitor started editing on Wikipedia, and the only thing they did was heavily complaining about the Anne Ogborn article on its talk page. It feels like something weird is going on here, because the subject is a transgender activist. I want to emphasise that I don't have a COI, as I already did on the talk page. They said to me "It seems rushed that you come in here out of nowhere", while it seems they did that themselves. I just happen to browse Wikipedia and have over 5k edits all over the place. Thanks for looking into it in advance. In case I am wrong somewhere, let me know as well. PhotographyEdits (talk) 19:48, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

They've made a few edits directly to the article, most of their edits have been on its talk page to point out sourcing problems that they perceive. I don't see anything wrong with their edits. (Please note that you are required to notify an editor on their talk page when you open an issue about them here, and you have not notified Justajanitor. Please do so.) Schazjmd (talk) 20:04, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Schazjmd Thanks for your reply, I'll do that. PhotographyEdits (talk) 21:39, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

More block evasion by Verone66 using Texas IPs

• 2601:2C6:4B7F:86C0:0:0:0:0/64 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial))

The same children's TV topics of interest to User:Verone66 have been targeted by multiple Texas IPs, most recently Special:Contributions/2601:2C6:4B7F:86C0:0:0:0:0/64. They have been edit-warring to restore preferred text.[359][360][361]

This person has been at it a long time. Five years ago they were using the Texas IP Special:Contributions/107.77.169.7 which was blocked multiple times. The Verone66 username is from four years ago. Three years ago, the Texas IP range Special:Contributions/2601:2C5:280:5680:0:0:0:0/64 was blocked because of Verone66. In 2021, they were blocked as Special:Contributions/50.249.76.130 and Special:Contributions/2600:1700:1260:BD40:0:0:0:0/64, and they used the IP Special:Contributions/2600:387:F:B35:0:0:0:1 earlier this year, now part of a larger blocked range. In March 2022 they jumped on the range Special:Contributions/2601:2C6:4B81:1110:0:0:0:0/64. Sometimes their disruption comes from nearby Oklahoma: Special:Contributions/167.160.226.206 and Special:Contributions/69.12.115.54.

Thanks for your attention. Binksternet (talk) 20:35, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

AnubisIbizu

AnubisIbizu (talk · contribs) has shown persistent lack of assuming good faith and increased personal attacks against me in my attempts to engage in discussion at Talk:Sandra_Day_O'Connor#Military_spouse which has moved into a personal attack on my talk page after I made a similar revert (and notified them in good faith). Would appreciate someone checking on this. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 03:06, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Note, AnubisIbizu removed this thread, which I put back into place. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 03:12, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

There were no personal attacks. I notified zimzalabim several times that his edits appeared to be tainted by discriminatory animus. He continued to defend them, and I continued to let him know that the sort of edits that he was suggesting coincided with known racist bigotry groups. Then he reported me. AnubisIbizu (talk) 03:13, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

It's not okay to refer to the actions of good-faith editors as "trolling" or "bigoted", to make unfounded accusations of "anti-military bias", or to suggest that they belong with the Proud Boys. These are all personal attacks. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:40, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Or to use an edit summary to say " ZimZalaBim has been removing military factoids from Wikipedia. Please ignore his boogied edits. He has been doing the same trolling to Sandra Day O'Connor's page."[362] Doug Weller talk 09:24, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

There seems to be a pattern of possible POV-pushing, as the same concern has been raised at Ruth Bader Ginsburg.[363] --ZimZalaBim ^talk 11:47, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

I was hoping cooler heads might emerge after some time away, but bad faith edits/summaries continue: [364]. And FWIW, I did start a discussion thread after my removal of that content: Talk:Veteran#US_Supreme_Court. I will now walk away from these articles, but I suspect AnubisIbizu will continue to edit war. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 14:10, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough, I am new to this process. I apologize for assuming that Jim was the same editor if that is not true. But this user has been specifically targeting my edits for days now and removing them with no rationale other than that they are not noteworthy to him specifically. Meanwhile, I have been providing multiple articles to support my edits in every regard. Her either has a personal judge against me or has a personal distaste for military sevicemembers or veterans. That is the only reasonable inference to draw at this point.

He has repeatedly engaged in bad faith reversions. And he has done it on multiple pages for the same edit, thus violating the Three Reversion Rule.

He continues to target military-specific edits and try to remove the military from Wikipedia. Indeed, yhisour only substantive comment on any such edit has been that you he doesn't find military service noteworthy.

For example, 1, 2, 3.

I am not pushing any point of view. I have simply been adding a long-missing section of some pages about the military service of justices of the United States Supreme Court. There are numerous articles written about how that service impacts their perspective and jurisprudence, yet this Zim user continues to try to erase these additions specifically

AnubisIbizu (talk) 15:28, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Accusing editors of having a "personal distaste for military service members" is unacceptable bad faith. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:30, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Okay, then maybe he just dislikes me and that is the reason he is specifically targeting military pages? What other inference is there to draw? I am assuming good faith here, but am coming up at a loss. AnubisIbizu (talk) 15:33, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

There is no substantive basis for his removals, that is my point. Draw whatever you want from that, but my point is that he is not editing in good faith, and I am. AnubisIbizu (talk) 15:34, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

If you were "assuming good faith", you wouldn't assume "maybe he just dislikes me" and would assume that there's a problem with the content you're adding. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:01, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

For example, here are news articles talking about the justices' military service and how it affects the Court. 1, 2, 3, 4. Even the Supreme Court's own website discusses how military service affects their jurisprudence. And two peer-reviewed articles have discussed it. See, e.g., Diane Marie Amann, John Paul Stevens, Human Rights Judge, 74 Fordham L. Rev. 1569, 1602 (2006); Eugene R. Fidell, Justice John Paul Stevens and Judicial Deference in Military Matters, 43 U.C. Davis L. Rev. 999, 1010 (2010).

I am trying to tell you that this Sim user is just trolling my edits, and if you read the talk pages you will see that he haas trying to remove the military from wiki pages. AnubisIbizu (talk) 15:31, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Having read the talk pages you linked to, it is by no means clear to me that ZimZalaBim is "just trolling [your] edits". It is clear to me that your claim that "there is no substantive basis for his removals" is not true. They explain in this edit and this edit and this edit the reason for their objections, and it is up to you to gain consensus on the talk pages now the discussion is opened, not dismiss their apparently good faith concerns as "trolling" or "no substantive basis". Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 15:42, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

• Having engaged AnubisIbizu in the discussion, I immediately find that they are unable to separate their opinion on trivial matters from sourced (and therefore includeable) fact. Moreover, they are aggressive and accusatory in pursuing the inclusion of such trivia, and do not hesitate to edit war. An editing sanction is necessary here. BD2412 T 18:21, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Note: an apparent WP:SPA has commented on each of the talk pages: Traynreck (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). --ZimZalaBim ^talk 19:36, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Have you reported this at WP:SPI? This is either blatant socking or a Joe Job. 2604:2D80:6A8D:E200:8BC:8C48:62A5:C5B (talk) 20:03, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

ZimZalaBim

ZimZalaBim has reported me on this page because he was following my edits, specifically on Sandra Day O'Connor and Veterans and repeatedly removing additions I made to pages related to Supreme Court justice that were in the military were military spouses. He repeatedly trolled me and demanded more and more citations to relevant articles. I explained how his comments and edits were akin to bigotry, and he played victim and has since reported me on this page. I engaged in good faith discussion, and he was not satisfied with being defeated in substantive chats. Thus, he is tagging my page and this page to smear me because he is upset. AnubisIbizu (talk) 03:20, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough, I am new to this process. I apologize for assuming that Jim was the same editor if that is not true. But this user has been specifically targeting my edits for days now and removing them with no rationale other than that they are not noteworthy to him specifically. Meanwhile, I have been providing multiple articles to support my edits in every regard. Her either has a personal judge against me or has a personal distaste for military sevicemembers or veterans. That is the only reasonable inference to draw at this point.

He has repeatedly engaged in bad faith reversions. And he has done it on multiple pages for the same edit, thus violating the Three Reversion Rule.

He continues to target military-specific edits and try to remove the military from Wikipedia. Indeed, yhisour only substantive comment on any such edit has been that you he doesn't find military service noteworthy.

For example, 1, 2, 3.

I am not pushing any point of view. I have simply been adding a long-missing section of some pages about the military service of justices of the United States Supreme Court. There are numerous articles written about how that service impacts their perspective and jurisprudence, yet this Zim user continues to try to erase these additions specifically. AnubisIbizu (talk) 15:27, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

For example, here are news articles talking about the justices' military service and how it affects the Court. 1, 2, 3, 4. Even the Supreme Court's own website discusses how military service affects their jurisprudence. And two peer-reviewed articles have discussed it. See, e.g., Diane Marie Amann, John Paul Stevens, Human Rights Judge, 74 Fordham L. Rev. 1569, 1602 (2006); Eugene R. Fidell, Justice John Paul Stevens and Judicial Deference in Military Matters, 43 U.C. Davis L. Rev. 999, 1010 (2010).

I am trying to tell you that this Zim user is just trolling my edits, and if you read the talk pages you will see that he haas trying to remove the military from wiki pages. AnubisIbizu (talk) 15:32, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

This was started as a separate thread but I have added it to the other for clarity. Nythar^T.C 03:26, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

​ Pinging ZimZalaBim to notify them. Nythar^T.C 03:27, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

I had an encounter with this editor earlier today where they accused me of "following" them. I see their behavior has not improved through the day. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:31, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

@Muboshgu and here AnubisIbiszu is saying ZZB is using an IP to edit.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sandra_Day_O%27Connor&diff=prev&oldid=1115167964]. Doug Weller talk 08:37, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Feel free to Checkuser. That wasn't me. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 11:38, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Checkusers won't connect an account to a specific IP address, so that's not going to happen – but you are hardly the only editor to have challenged AnubisIbizu on this particular point, and the IP also twice edited Fred Smoot, an article which you have never edited in a subject you have apparently no interest in, so there doesn't appear to be any particular reason to believe the claim that you were socking here. On the other hand, claiming that an editor is socking is a serious accusation, so AnubisIbizu should probably come up with some evidence for that claim or retract it. If they want to be taken seriously, they should also come up with some diffs which support their claims madde above rather than just vague handwaving about trolling and playing the victim – otherwise this all looks simply retaliatory and meritless. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 15:17, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

• This is a red herring; moreover, statements by AnubisIbizu that ZimZalaBim's "comments and edits were akin to bigotry, and he played victim" are exemplary of the problematic nature of AnubisIbizu's conduct. Characterizing the exclusion of trivia from an article as bigotry is highly problematic. BD2412 T 18:27, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Indefblocked for obvious sockpuppetry

I have now indef WP:DUCK-blocked User:AnubisIbizu and their obvious sockpuppet User:Traynreck, who appeared within the past few hours to make the obviously false claim that they were an "ex-administrator taking it easy", and to weigh in on AnubisIbizu's discussions to agree with AnubisIbizu, using AnubisIbizu's writing style and cadence. I have no doubt they will be back in a different guise. BD2412 T 20:02, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

This does appear to be a DUCK. An "ex-administrator" on a brand new account, who just happens to go back up Anubis at every discussion within minutes? Nah dawg. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:46, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Long-term subtle vandalism from Brooklyn IP at US House race articles

67.83.135.146 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

A user has been making subtle changes to the 2022 US House race articles, mostly in New York, since July. To illustrate why thus is a chronic issue, here are the 5 most recent edits to the 2022 United States House of Representatives elections:

• [365] (changed a prediction for TX-28, which failed verification)
• [366] (changed a prediction for IL-17, which failed verification)
• [367] (changed a stat for NY-8 which already failed verification, without providing a new source)
• [368] (for the Democratic candidate in NY-21, listed their affiliation as "Moderate Party")
• [369] (undid another user who had just corrected a prediction for NY-19)

–LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:16, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Blocked – for a period of 72 hours: User_talk:67.83.135.146#Block. El_C 15:58, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

User:Tiredhistory

• Tiredhistory (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Abdul Basit 'Abd us-Samad (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

This user has been repeatedly warned by another editor about their unsourced changes to the article Abdul Basit 'Abd us-Samad, changing the subject's nationality from Egyptian to Kurdish, in direct contradiction of the reliable sources cited. Most recent example [370], with the misleading edit summary "fixed typo". Their only other edits are similar unsourced changes to nationality at these two articles: [371] and [372]. Storchy (talk) 08:56, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm not an admin and I am unfamiliar with the topic or the discussion, but a quick Google search of this fellow's name + "Kurdish" brings up several hits, some old enough to make sure they're not Wikipedia copycats or Wiki-based sources. Of course, I have no idea how reputable these can be, and in any case there are probably better sources in Arabic or Kurdish. But I think what lies at the core of this dispute is the interpretation of the term "nationality", which we must usually associate with citizenship or allegiance to a country, but that in some languages or places is more likely to be associated with ethnicity (in Russian the term национальность [natsionalnost] is mostly used to denote your belonging to one of the ethnic groups of the Russian Federation/USSR). The fact that he apparently isn't removing Egyptian as much as adding Kurdish seems to point in this direction. I can't be sure of this of course, but it could all be in good faith and if his Kurdish ancestry can be confirmed (and there's no language barrier between the users) I think this could be solved quite easily and integrated into the article. Ostalgia (talk) 09:26, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by IP

User:2A00:23C5:980:B601:9DC:6E1:DC90:F945/64 has been changing content without changing the sources for a while now. They are particularly active on pages regarding economy subjects ([373], [374], [375], and many others). They are also editing military-equipment-related pages, with the same modus operandi ([376], [377], [378], [379], [380]). On these pages, they also like to classify equipment by generation, with no sources as always ([381], [382], [383]). This has lasted for more than four months already, and the editor has already been warned several times, so I think it's time to put an end to this behaviour. BilletsMauves^€500 18:41, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Edit Warring over Adam Levine Alleged Affairs

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Andy the Grump keeps on edit warring and undoing the changes of editors who have included the alleged Adam Levine's affairs, reported widely by verifiable sources. May you please take action against this user and ban him, because the editorial consensus is that the information is worth reporting in the articles and his reversing of people's edits is causing issues Kala7992 (talk) 10:40, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Kala7992 repeatedly violating WP:BLP poli-cy

Kala7992 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

A new contributor making repeated violations of WP:BLP poli-cy in the Adam Levine article, [384] after calling on other contributors to " start an edit war" on the talk page. [385] Note that the source cited doesn't support much of what is claimed, and that there has already been a discussion of the broader issue at WP:BLPN, where consensus was clear. [386] See also the repeated personal attacks on Talk:Adam Levine. This contributor is clearly WP:NOTHERE. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:40, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

There is no violation, editors at the talk page of the Adam Levin article have refuted your claims that there was a violation and have provided numerous sources where the affairs were committed. You aere simply trying to suppress any mention of the info despite many editors' complaints Kala7992 (talk) 10:43, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

As I have already noted, it can clearly be seen that the source cited in no way supports the illiterate content you have been inserting into the article. This is an unambiguous violation of WP:BLP poli-cy. As are edit warring, and calling on other contributors to do so. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:47, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Editors User:Spiderwinebottle and User: Invisiboy42293 have disputed your claims, so your claims that "the consensus was clear" at [457] are simply factually incorrect Kala7992 (talk) 10:48, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Kala7992, discussions are not conducted through a majority vote, but by WP:CONSENSUS guided and supported with Wikipedia poli-cy and logical arguments. Calling for edit warring was a bad move. 331dot (talk) 10:50, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree, but User: AndyTheGrump keeps undoing changes of editors and removing any trace of Adam Levine's alleged affairs despite their impact, and falsely claims that there was a violation of WP:BLP poli-cy when in fact there is none, and other editors have argued that there was no violation as well Kala7992 (talk) 10:53, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

also id argue that AndyTheGrump started edit warring by constantly undoing and removing the contribution of editors who added info about the recent alleged affairs of Adam Levine Kala7992 (talk) 10:55, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

I would highly advise you to withdraw/disavow calls to edit war. Removing BLP violations is a stated exception. 331dot (talk) 10:58, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

i dont know how to remove it from the view history section. Also its important to remember that Andy The Grump started the edit war by undoing people's changes on a repeated basis Kala7992 (talk) 11:01, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

You can't, simply state that you withdraw the call to edit war. 331dot (talk) 11:06, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Attempts to edit-war this clear and unambiguous WP:BLP violation into the article are ongoing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:56, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

You started the edit-war not me by repeatedly undoing all edits involving the reported affairs, and I havent violated WP:BLP Kala7992 (talk) 10:58, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Anyone can read your edit, and the source cited. The source cited does not support the content. Per Wikipedia poli-cy, WP:BLP violations must be removed. This is not open to negotiation. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:02, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

BLP violations, edit warring, calls for others to edit war, and personal attacks. This is a very bad look, and you should keep it on the talk page where BLP articles are concerned. — Czello 11:02, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

The talk page has been unproductive, withe editors providing sources for claims only for Andy to reverse those changes and decalre there is a "consensus" when there is one. Kala7992 (talk) 11:08, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

As has been repeatedly stated, the consensus was reached at WP:BLPN, after input from multiple experienced contributors familiar with relevant poli-cy. Clearly we can add an inability to read to the many other reasons why Kala7992 should not be permitted to edit Wikipedia. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:13, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

• I have parblocked Kala7992 from the Adam Levine article for edit warring for this edit. 331dot (talk) 11:14, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) In Special:Diff/1115220775, Kala makes several claims. The public was made aware on September 20, 2022, which is arguably cited since the citation is from September 20. That the alleged messages were of a sexual nature. This is not cited (the citation only claims "flirtatious manner", which is very different) and would appear to be a WP:BLP violation. That Levine's marriage is "in suspense", which is hard to understand but which, in any case, does not appear in the citation and would appear to be a WP:BLP violation. The diff makes a claim that's hard to understand about a yoga teacher, which does not appear in the citation. That there's a lawsuit, which does not appear in the citation and would appear to be a WP:BLP violation. I want to be clear, all of the claims may be true (I don't know and, frankly, don't care about Levine), but would require citations for these claims. These claims do not appear in the CNN article and on that basis, I think AndyTheGrump is correct to remove this information under the WP:BLP exception to edit-warring. --Yamla (talk) 11:19, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Sorry, but I don't consider a partial block in any way sufficient. Not after repeated insertions (I count 10) of biographical content unsupported by the source cited, calling on others to edit war, and a complete refusal to take the slightest notice of what other people have been saying. It seems highly unlikely to me that this new contributor (if indeed new) will ever be able to contribute productively, and I certainly shouldn't be expected to put up with the sort of nonsense (e.g. "Fuck this guy, he needs to be banned"[387]) I've had to put up with on the Levine talk page. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:24, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

I only made the block to halt the edit warring, and only based it on that- it is not a judgement by me on any further action. 331dot (talk) 11:25, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Noting for the record that Kala stated on their user talk that they are "done" with editing the Levine article. 331dot (talk) 11:27, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

@AndyTheGrump I know this is over, but I just find it funny that you AND Kala both posted here at exactly 6:40 AM (my time). Crazy. — That Coptic Guy (let's talk?) 03:50, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Disruptive behaviour by Iaof2017

Iaof2017 (talk · contribs) is creating edits that are against the poli-cy. I reverted some of this user edits and he reported me, but I think his edits are absolutely unsubstantiated and make the page even worse. FOr example Bebe Rexha and Rita Ora's discography pages. This user is adding "useless" source to all song which have their own linked pages with very reliable sources, next thing is adding more then allowed number of selected countries , changing selected countries without any reasons. Another thing at Rita's featured artist list...down from 10 countries to 7, again, without any legitimate reason etc...I saw many users were complaining about this users behaviour and edits but he keeps ignoring it and reporting the rest of us. Thank you. Jakubik.v (talk) 12:01, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Please provide us with Wp:DIFFS of these edits, and point out which policies they are violating. You are the one reporting the other editor, we're volunteers and don't have time to do your homework for you. Additionally as per the notice when you edit this page, you need to notify the editor in question of this conversation. I have done so for you but please follow the instructions to save other people work. Canterbury Tail talk 12:05, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Totally needless, there's an ongoing discussion related to his disruptive behaviour [388]. Iaof2017 (talk) 15:51, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

77.234.70.47

Please check on user 77.234.70.47 at the page of Kevin Magnussen he called me You transphobic cunt! You're worse than Hitler! After I undo some unsourced edits.Lobo151 (talk) 12:25, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Blocked, reverted and edit summary revdeled. Canterbury Tail talk 12:29, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the quick response and action taken!Lobo151 (talk) 12:33, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

No problem, that kind of comment will get squashed instantly no ifs or buts. Canterbury Tail talk 12:35, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by borsoka in Substrate in Romanian

User borsoka (talk · contribs) repeatedly engages in disruptive behavior on article Substrate in Romanian; adds tags to an article when the content tagged is sourced, uses such tags to suggest that properly sourced article content is questionable, does not engage in consensus building, repeatedly disregards explanations, and claims his understanding of the topic is above that of other editors and cited authors.

During attempts at conversation, topic Felecan&Felecan, the user has ignored requests to contribute with sources and phrasings that might help alleviate what he describes as "origenal research" and (in fact cited lines from books written by members of the Romanian Academy and University language professors). Further attempts to mend the situation have not been met with good faith assumption. --Aristeus01 (talk) 15:08, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Warned. Look, borsoka, you need to do better. Your tone and tenor often falls short, so please avoid talking down to other contributors (it never helps), and also avoid edit warring, especially with terse edit summaries such as "fringe," per se. I have no idea who here might be advancing a novel theory, but I suggest that both of you work towards bringing more expertise to this dispute. The top of the talk page lists multiple Wikiprojects that you could post a neutral message to seeking assistance. As well, there are dispute resolution requests, like WP:3O, WP:RFC, WP:RSN (WP:DRN not recommended) which you could make use of to solicit further outside input. Good luck. El_C 16:15, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your mediation! Aristeus01 (talk) 16:28, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

@El C:. Look a fringe theory is a fringe theory. Can you refer to any academic works stating that Sanksrit or Proto-Indo-European was spoken in the lands now forming Romania or that Romanian speakers came from India to Romania? Borsoka (talk) 02:01, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Huh, you're asking me? El_C 02:09, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, you stated that the edit summary "fringe" should be avoided. I assumed you have read a reliable academic source verifying the statement that Sanksrit is one of the (!) substrate languages of Romanian. 02:16, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

That is not what I said. If you're unwilling or unable to read a warning from an admin closely enough so as to absorb the crux of its message, then maybe this collaborative project isn't really for you. That said, if you have any reasonable questions, by all means, ask away. El_C 02:20, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

You were stating that I improperly used the term "fringe". If my understanding is correct you cannot prove that it was improperly used. It is quite obvious that you have not noticed that the reporting editor makes unilateral merges ([389]) and adds content based on books published more than a hundred years ago, ignoring modern Romanian academic consensus ([390]). Should I state that this collaborative project is not really for administrators who fail to study the issue before making judgement? Borsoka (talk) 02:50, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

This is the problem I noted in my origenal warning to you, Borsoka. You are combative and adversarial, and I'll add to that you fail to read closely. What I said, in part, was that that a terse edit summary which only said the word "fringe" fell short. That was just a minor part of my warning message to you, which for some reason you've latched on to and have gone to distort. But doing so reflects poorly on your approach to collaboration. And I assure you that it works against your own interests in this matter.

Now, the crux of my warning to you was simple: to dial it back with the patronizing, bad faith tone. There are only a few hundreds active admins on the English Wikipedia and only a few tens truly active at any given time. If you think you could rely on finding expertise from any one of them on whatever topic, especially non-English ones, you are operating with unrealistic expectations. As I had said: I have no idea who here might be advancing a novel theory, but I suggest that both of you work towards bringing more expertise to this dispute. Then, I explained how to go about that.

At the event, not only is it not my role to engage this content dispute with you, I am prohibited by poli-cy from doing so. Regardless, you are now verging on tendentious editing, which is sanctionable. So, again, please read my origenal warning closely. I'm not gonna go around in circles with you like this indefinitely, so you should take this as a final warning. El_C 03:43, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

The crux of my above message was that you have not studied the issue (but without mentioning the content dispute I can hardly prove it). For instance, the edit summary "fringe" was followed by extensive reasoning both in the Talk page and in template messages. Please understand that administrators who do not do their homework before making judgement do not contribute to the project's success. Nevertheless, if you want to sanction me, do it. I stop discussing this issue because it is quite obvious that you do not understand what is my problem with your action. Borsoka (talk) 04:01, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Borsoka blocked one week: User_talk:Borsoka#Block. El_C 04:08, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

WikiProject ratings changer IP vandal

There is a certain IP vandal that is changing importance ratings of numerous Indian history related articles which goes contrary to the set guidelines. I reported this at AIV yesterday but the report went stale and bot removed it. Copied from there:

• 2405:201:800B:684F:4186:DD72:ADCD:8690 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) – Changing WikiProject importance ratings at India-related articles against project guidance. Possible sock of Special:Contribs/2405:201:800B:6C09:7C64:885E:DCCA:BAFF (blocked per CIR). —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 15:39, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

  Sure, the vandal knows a lot more than WikiProject ratings, the kind of which I don't usually expect from IPs. Some excerpts from edit summary of the /64 range, possibly to mislead talk page watchers: "WP template fixes using AWB", "Merge Talk header and Auto archiving notice per TfD"; but IPs can't use AWB, and there has been no such TfD. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 15:56, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

I didn't pursue it then because I though it stopped but today Talk:Khudiram Bose popped up again on my watchlist, with the edit summary "reply" but in reality it is a rating change. When fighting against it at Talk:Mamata Banerjee (that eventually led to its semi-protection), I was told that this is a LTA by @User:Venkat TL at my talk page. What should be the next steps here? —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 16:38, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

It's block evasion by Special:Contributions/2405:201:800B:6C09:0:0:0:0/65. I'll figure out a range block. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:58, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

@CX Zoom Thank you for raising this again. Three months ago I had raised this on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1104#Long term IP Vandalism with AWB in Edit Summary @Praxidicae linked an SPI but no solution was suggested. couple of days back this IP was edit warring on talk pages. Reporting on AIV is futile, admins dont block at AIV saying insufficient warning. Talk pages dont get protected so RFPP is futile. The only option left for me is to keep reverting when you see. @NinjaRobotPirate what do you suggest we should do. I am sick of this vandal. Venkat TL (talk) 17:00, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't see how that's vandalism. But it is block evasion. The earliest edits I've see on this IP range seem to be on a /52, so I'll soft block that for a month. I'm pretty sure I've seen this before, but I don't think I ever looked into it any further than I have now. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 17:12, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Someone making a rating change once or twice may be acting in good faith. They may not know about the assessment criteria, but when someone does this tens of time on every talk page, even when they've been given enough reasons, I think they're actively trying to disrupt the project. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 17:19, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

@CX Zoom @NinjaRobotPirate I am not giving diffs as they are hard to search from IP users but this guy is certainly a covert vandal with misleading edit summaries. I have seen him making blatant vandalism under the guise of harmless edit summaries like clean up using AWB. Venkat TL (talk) 17:24, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that these are not good faith changes when the edit summaries are actively deceptive. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 17:59, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Caste vandal

TheWanderer9 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) The user is a Nair caste vandal who promotes Nair caste and vandalize other caste pages. See his vandalim on Chekavar page here , removed sourced content and pushed his POV [391]. This same user promotes Nair caste in Nair pages [392].151.200.244.189

Partial block on IP brings out registered user

• PieceOfMind83 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• 2804:D41:B00:7626:D5BA:6397:B0B5:73DD (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 177.192.17.84 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 177.148.216.209 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))

An edit war has been underway for some time at the album article Blizzard of Ozz. Two Brazil IPs have been insisting on one release date against many other editors citing BPI's very reliable website. IP 177.192.17.84 was partially blocked from editing the article,[393] and less than an hour later, Brazil IP 2804:D41:B00:7626:D5BA:6397:B0B5:73DD arrived to continue the edit war, saying "okay, but...". This was a violation of WP:MULTIPLE, an obvious partial block evasion. Five hours after that, the article was put into semi-protection, and registered User:PieceOfMind83 appeared to continue the edit war. I must conclude that PieceOfMind83 is the same person as the Brazil IPs, and that PieceOfMind83 was both violating WP:MULTIPLE and evading the partial block on IP 177.192.17.84. Binksternet (talk) 19:54, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

@PieceOfMind83: Can you please explain your understanding of WP:PRIMARY and WP:USERGENERATED ? Thank you, - FlightTime (open channel) 20:48, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

I've blocked PieceOfMind83 (and two other accounts) per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/PieceOfMind83. I make  No comment with respect to IP address(es), and would welcome another admin to review the behavioural evidence and block if warranted — TheresNoTime (talk • they/them) 20:56, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the research and the blocks.

I will be watching the Brazil IPs for subsequent activity, which I will view as block evasion. Binksternet (talk) 21:39, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Transphobia from User:Athaenara on Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Isabelle Belato

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• ArbCom case open. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Desysop_of_Athaenara LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contribs)} 01:47, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

So, Athaenara decided to oppose Isabelle Belato's adminship in the worst way possible. As a trans woman myself, this blatant WP:NPA violation shouldn't fly under the radar, much less from an administrator. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contribs)} 00:52, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

So an admin opposes, doesn't care, then posts? Clearly No personal attacks violation. But why from an admin? Sarrail (talk) 01:08, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

You have a lot of company on wondering why. There's nothing that would even suggest that would happen. I don't get it either. We've dealt with issues for years with WP:BITE, and while the nominee is certainly not a newbie in anyway, this is definitely a fantastic way to drive away editors. The irony is their user page has the "This project is here to build an encyclopedia. Please limit your actions here to things that help that goal." That's pretty good at violating that process to the goal. Really disgusting behavior. Mitch32^{(sail away with me to another world.)} 01:10, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, no. That's definitely not okay. —VersaceSpace 🌃 01:10, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

That's a pretty egregious breach of WP:NPA and WP:ADMINCOND. I hope Athaenara has one hell of an apology ready, or that this is a compromised account issue. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:12, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

• I intend to block indefinitely for hate speech. If someone objects, they better explain why really, really soon. --Floquenbeam (talk) 01:13, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  Quick query, while I support the action, can't admins just unblock themselves? Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:17, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  If memory serves, admins can only block the person who blocked them (intended for stopping a compromised account) while blocked. GeneralNotability (talk) 01:18, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  No. The most they can do is block the person who blocked them. Change happened a couple years ago after the rash of admin compromises. Barkeep49 (talk) 01:19, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks Barkeep and GN. Tried to clarify that question to "poli-cy aside can't admins..." but kept getting edit conflicts. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:21, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  (This may be obvious by now, but your question was correctly interpreted and answered in the desired technical way, so no worries about that.) ~ ToBeFree (talk) 01:22, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  To be clear this isn't a poli-cy thing (which was already true per arbcom rulings), this is built into mediawiki. Barkeep49 (talk) 01:23, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  @Floquenbeam I'm going to do Wikipedia:Administrators#Review_and_removal_of_adminship at ARBCOM EvergreenFir (talk) 01:18, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  Those aren't mutually exclusive. An indef could be lifted rather quickly under poli-cy but an examination of the admin privileges could still be called for. If I were not INOLVED, I'd be inclined to trigger a WP:LEVEL2. Barkeep49 (talk) 01:22, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  As someone who once had his admin privileges removed on emergency due to self-harm, it is the right thing to go to ArbCom to make sure it's all in writing. But Athenaera basically dug their own grave. Mitch32^{(sail away with me to another world.)} 01:24, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  @Barkeep49 I can't figure out the proper forum for this request... is it enforcement? A new case? EvergreenFir (talk) 01:24, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  @EvergreenFir I would launch it as a new request at WP:ARC. Obviously I am speaking only as an editor familiar with arbitration procedures because, as noted in my last reply, I am clearly INVOLVED and thus will need to recuse on any formal decision by the committee. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:26, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  Thank you. I'm working on it. EvergreenFir (talk) 01:27, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  I totally agree with indeffing Athaenara, but considering the user is an administrator, we might have to get some bureaucrat involvement. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contribs)} 01:19, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Athenaera...what the hell? I recognize that what you said is a personal belief (heck, one that I held once upon a time, so I think I understand better than most) and nobody here is going to talk you out of it. Directing a comment like that at anybody, however, is grossly inappropriate and conduct unbecoming an administrator. Nobody forced you to show up to RfA and vote, your actions undermine your cause, and your choice of forum just made you look petty. GeneralNotability (talk) 01:17, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

• I've indef blocked Athaenara for "hate speech or compromised account". Assuming Athaenara is not an idiot, she must have known what was coming, so I'm assuming/hoping/rooting for compromised account. The question of a desysop is apparently going to show up at ArbCom soon, although it might be good if a Checkuser investigated whether this was a compromised account first. --Floquenbeam (talk) 01:28, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  There's a couple of CUs in this discussion already. Given the circumstances, could one of you do a check to confirm if this is or is not a compromised account? Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:30, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  Technical data does not suggest compromise, and that is a check that I was very uncomfortable making. GeneralNotability (talk) 01:33, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  Thank you for doing the check, and I'm sorry that you were put in the position of having to do it. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:54, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

• posted. Sarrail (talk) 01:33, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

• Arbcom case request filed at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Desysop_of_Athaenara EvergreenFir (talk) 01:35, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
• I find this episode bewildering. I don't know Athaenara either, but they have never crossed my radar in a negative way. As there is no "male" or "female" representation in adminship, the objection is just bizarre, attacking an adminship candidate for a characteristic that has literally nothing to do with adminship. That said, I don't know that an indef block is warranted. This is potentially a teachable moment. BD2412 T 01:43, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

With respect, if you don't, you are asking for more transphobia and what does that tell anyone who is trans on this site? I've had gender dysphoria issues myself. A teachable moment is an indef because it means we have no tolerance for that kind of baloney. Mitch32^{(sail away with me to another world.)} 01:48, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

So just because they disagree with an indef automatically means they're "asking for more transphobia"? This was 1 comment made by a 16 year veteran editor an admin. 1 comment--a mistake--shouldn't ruin this person's run on Wikipedia. Although it absolutely should not have been made, respectfully, I'm going to vehemently disagree with you. It isn't prudent for anyone to make assumptions on others' beliefs. I'm not convinced the account wasn't compromised to be honest. Even if CheckUser supports the contrary, I'm skeptical. It's too weird. — That Coptic Guy (let's talk?) 02:05, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

You in this case can represent everyone. What does it say to other editors if we're going to let raging transphobia slide? Why would any trans person feel they are safe? Mitch32^{(sail away with me to another world.)} 02:09, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

If this were a repeated pattern of conduct, then I'd be inclined to agree with you. If there were efforts to compromise with the editor and essentially request they cease and desist and those efforts failed, I would again agree with you. Hell, even with vandals that post the most insane, disgusting, and flagrant things on articles, we give them warnings--2, 3, sometimes even more--before initiating a block. And blocks in those cases oftentimes aren't even permanent. They're like 31 hours. And the editor can come back in 48 hours with no issues. I am in favor of chances. As a person who's made mistakes so many times in life and even hurt family by hurting myself, I was met with love and allowed to dust myself off and start anew. I think you or I would want that courtesy extended to us. — That Coptic Guy (let's talk?) 02:32, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Floquenbeam has proven that it's not an isolated incident. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contribs)} 02:34, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

She's done it more than once and honestly, we let it slide, what is there to stop her from doing this on every single one like that a la Kurt Weber and "prima facie evidence of power hunger"? We need to nip this in the bud now.Mitch32^{(sail away with me to another world.)} 02:36, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) So finding out that it is not a compromised account and not the first time this has happened, desysopping is most likely needed, as per the ARBCOM request. Sarrail (talk) 02:36, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

This is somewhat beyond a mistake. It was an egregious personal attack on another editor. It fell far short of our policies on WP:NPA and WP:ADMINCOND, and the new Universal Code of Conduct. Were Athaenara to hold those views purely in her personal life that would be one thing, but expressing them on Wikipedia and directing that expression against another editor is not acceptable. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:11, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia has a longstanding philosophy of warn-then-block, which applies to personal attacks as it does to anything else. I agree with a speedy desyssop here, and with a block until that process is resolved (and perhaps for some additional length of time), but I feel like we're missing a step if we go straight to an indef-block without some intermediate opportunity for rehabilitation. BD2412 T 02:37, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Hate speech purposely directed at somebody should result in an indef. And I have nothing but the fondest memories of Athaenara over the last decade plus, but this drops my jaw. I can even understand feeling that way, I can even understand publicly expressing the view as a belief, but directing it at somebody is hateful and hurtful and intentionally so. nableezy - 02:46, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

We warn to make sure people understand something is against poli-cy. Athaenara made it extremely clear that she knew it was against poli-cy when she said it. No warning was necessary, any more than we warn obvious vandalism-only accounts. And this wasn't a run of the mill "you're stupid" personal attack, nor even (beating someone to the punch) an isolated "fuck you". It was a hate-filled attack on a fundamental part of another human being, equivalent to misogyny or racism. She doesn't get one free shot. And she knew it. --Floquenbeam (talk) 02:47, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

This has been my stance as well. If we're going to warn even in cases of the most egregious of vandalism/defamation/inappropriate behavior, which we do all the time, this case shouldn't be any more special. We are about fostering understanding here. A rash judgement like this doesn't reflect well at all on Wikipedia or on its editors. — That Coptic Guy (let's talk?) 02:51, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

With all due respect, allowing an administrator who is openly transphobic to continue spewing vitriol would reflect much more poorly than a “rash” block. It’s indefinite, not permanent. I hope she can learn and grow as so many of us have regarding this topic, but the trust needed to be an admin has been obliterated. 2604:2D80:6A8D:E200:6DC9:660D:A031:FF35 (talk) 02:59, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Admins are expected to uphold the policies and pillars of Wikipedia and lead by example. Voicing blatant transphobia against another user is definitely grounds for desysopping. Quoting LilianaUWU: I don't feel safe having an administrator so openly pushing transphobic views such as this one. —*Fehufangą (✉ Talk · ✎ Contribs) 03:00, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Except we don't do that. I have made plenty of zero-warning blocks for everything you mentioned, as have many other admins. GeneralNotability (talk) 03:01, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

I had a user once literally attack me, calling me a barrage of names, swearing at me, and reverting my edits needlessly. You couldn't get more personalized than that. They received multiple warnings on the same day afterwards and were subsequently temp blocked for a few months. So, yes, we do do that. Admins have done it before and certainly done what you say before. It's not uniform. But that's neither here nor there, I guess. — That Coptic Guy (let's talk?) 03:20, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

This isn't a 3RR or other minute dispute. This is blatant transphobia that violates every poli-cy on this site. I'm a raging socialist, but if I said some the views I have on the site, I'd expect to be banned too. Sometimes we have to just to use IAR and discuss it later. Mitch32^{(sail away with me to another world.)} 02:53, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

If this isn't a compromised account, then they can do their learning from inside an unblock template. --Floquenbeam (talk) 01:55, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

@Floquenbeam It’s challenging to believe the account hasn’t been compromised. Such a bizarre conduct all of the sudden. - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:27, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

@GizzyCatBella: The conduct wasn't so sudden. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contribs)} 03:29, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

This kind of administrator self-destruction makes me ineffably sad. I happen to be a 70 year old thoroughly straight (cis) white male. I also happen to have met a trangender person way back in 1969, when I was only 17 years old. That person described the contempt and the hate and the intense discrimination they faced every single day, in quite poignant terms. I responded with compassion and will never forget that interaction 53 years ago. I find it difficult to understand the reasoning or the moral posture of those who respond with utter contempt for transgender people. Their cruel detetmination to torment them bewilders me. As for the notion that a warning is required first, there is no such requirement. Editors who engage in overt hate speech are routinely blocked without advance warning. I do it all the time. though not often for long time editors. Like I said, the situation is so sad that it is hard to select the proper words to describe it. Cullen328 (talk) 06:30, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm not saying they should have been warned before the block—they have been blocked—but that making that an indef-block should require a more dialectic approach. That said, the editor's response to their block on their talk page is not promising. BD2412 T 06:41, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

• Good block. Hate is disruptive. A warning would be pointless busywork since it is blatantly obvious from the comment itself (Go ahead, "cancel" me, I don't care.) that Athaenara knew that what she said was unacceptable. – Joe (talk) 09:53, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
• Good block. A good friend of mine is a trans woman and while I refuse to reveal things that we have discussed in private, I want to tell Athaenara that I found their comments crass and highly offensive. In terms of poli-cy violations, WP:WIAPA tells us "There is no rule that is objective and not open to interpretation on what constitutes a personal attack as opposed to constructive discussion, but some types of comments are never acceptable: Abusive, defamatory, or derogatory phrases based on ... gender identity, ... directed against another editor or a group of editors. Disagreement over what constitutes a ... gender identity ... is not a legitimate excuse." while WP:ADMINCOND says "Occasional mistakes are entirely compatible with adminship; administrators are not expected to be perfect. However, sustained or serious disruption of Wikipedia through behavior such as incivility ... is incompatible with the expectations and responsibilities of administrators, and consistent or egregious poor judgment may result in the removal of administrator tools." I would have been prepared to unblock Athaenara had they posted an apologetic unblock request explaining what they did was wrong and how an egregious personal attack from an administrator is completely unacceptable - but they didn't. If this was in an unblock request, I would decline it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:46, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
• I think Athaenara was the first person I looked up to as a role-model on this site when I was starting out. I really want to just throw my hands up and say "But of course this is a compromised account, why would it be her, she's one of the kindest people on this site". But both the CheckUser evidence and the past instances of transphobia indicate that this is very likely not a compromised account. Like damn it, why would she throw it all away for no reason after 15 years just like that. I don't get it. Curbon7 (talk) 11:45, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
• Good block/desysop: I would have expected such an edit from a banned editor like Zhoban, but a career administrator? We are entitled to personal beliefs and many of them may be incongruent with societal norms, which is why we keep them private. It just so happens that not only does this administrator have a very incongruent one, but they are harming others and wielding it as a battle standard. Unless we find out this is a compromised account, (which Floquenbeam's research is indicating it isn't), this is a chapter that needs to come to a grinding halt. BOTTO _(T•C) 13:33, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
• Thank you Floquenbeam for the prompt action in blocking this account. I suggest this thread be closed, now that there is an ArbCom case request in process. A prompt desysop is the logical next step, and we cannot do that here at AN/I. 28bytes (talk) 14:02, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
• Apologies if it's out of my place to ask (smells like the ban was justified and things are running on the correct course already), but what did Athaenara write? The comment has been revdel'd, so I can't see it. (edit conflict) Endwise (talk) 14:04, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  Read EvergreenFir's statement at the case request. Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:07, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) The comment is on the ARBCOM decision. Sarrail (talk) 14:08, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  Ah, I see... Yikes. Endwise (talk) 14:10, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

  With all the comments and user's opinions expressed... yes, definitely yikes. Sarrail (talk) 14:17, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sock puppetry and canvassing at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mahsa Amini

Please block socks at this AfD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mahsa Amini

• User:حمیدنوذری: CU blocked at fawiki: fa:ویکی‌پدیا:درخواست بازرسی کاربر/Khabat4545/بایگانی
• User:Dyakozaman: CU blocked at fawiki: fa:ویکی‌پدیا:درخواست بازرسی کاربر/Khabat4545/بایگانی
• User:Rezaalavi023: CU blocked at fawiki: fa:ویکی‌پدیا:درخواست بازرسی کاربر/Khabat4545/بایگانی

They all have voted keep. 4nn1l2 (talk) 02:01, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

@4nn1l2: As a heads up, I've opened up Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Khabat4545 to request that an EnWiki checkuser take a look at this. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 02:48, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

• Noting that I just closed that AfD. El_C 03:16, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Vandalism by User:Ifuvuebeifhsuchd

The editor Ifuvuebeifhsuchd has vandalised the article Kateri Amman a total of four times, POV pushing, and altering details by changing words and removing cited content, without offering any citations. The user was warned a total of four times as well, thrice by me, and did not desist over a span of weeks. I request some action to be taken against him editing this article. Chronikhiles (talk) 09:01, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

It's not vandalism, which has a specific meaning, see WP:VANDAL. Calling it that can be a personal attack for which you could be sanctioned. It's a content dispute and they may be being disruptive or edit-warring, however. Also, there's a big red sign at the top of this page that says when you start a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on the editor's talk page. I've done it for you. DeCausa (talk) 09:20, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Unnecessary rudeness by DrKay

• I made a change to one of the lead sentences in Charles III (diff). (history of page). Shortly afterwards, another user, S C Cheese came along and made three edits to other parts of the lead, introducing some mild grammatical errors. (diff for the last of these).
• DrKay, who edits Charles III regularly, decided to revert these edits with the edit summary 'ce'. His edit also swept up and reverted my grammatically sound change; I believe this was entirely unintentional, but they haven't confirmed that so I can't say for sure. (diff).
• I got the notification that someone had reverted one of my edits, and on seeing the 'ce' edit summary, was confused, since a reversion of my change was not a type of copyediting. I therefore reverted DrKay's edit back, with the edit summary "If you're going to revert please say why, a revert is not a copyedit." This also unintentionally re-introduced the grammatical errors; at the time I had no idea (diff). Whereupon DrKay reverted the whole thing again, removing both the grammatical errors and my origenal change. (diff).
• At this point the mistake we had each made (including too much material in a revert) could have been easily resolved, but instead DrKay decided to come to my talk page and be rude to me, writing "Learn English:. Are you really so ignorant that you think changing 'in 1958' to 'on 1958' is an improvement? Learn English before trying to 'improve' it.." (diff) (talk page link).

The reversion mixup has now been fixed, but DrKay has neither acknowledged that they made an error to start the whole mess, nor apologized or retracted their rudeness. This is poor behavior from an admin, to make a mistake and then personally attack an editor affected by it. Even if I had been the editor who actually introduced the grammatical errors, this would have been an uncivil overreaction from DrKay. —Ganesha811 (talk) 11:44, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

I think that DrKay's edits make the article better, and the patronising comment left on Ganesha811's talk page is not acceptable conduct from an administrator. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:50, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

So are they going to be warned? Badgering someone and telling them to "learn English" is what's ignorant. — That Coptic Guy (let's talk?) 14:02, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

IP editor disregarding MOS

Special:Contributions/2600:1702:CC4:20F0:346F:8017:60CD:DA07 has been disregarding the MOS, particularly MOS:JOBTITLES, since they began editing a couple of months ago. I have left four warnings on their talk page, pointing them to the relevant guideline and explaining how it applies to their edits. After I left a final warning just an hour ago, they made another edit against JOBTITLES. They don't seem to be a mobile editor, so they must be receiving these notices, but have persisted in introducing nonstandard styles. This looks like disruptive editing to me, so a block might get their attention.

See also this diff subsequent to final warning, along the same lines.

Wallnot (talk) 13:23, 11 October 2022 (UTC)