Talk:2024 Kharkiv offensive

Isn't this premature?

It's been less than a day. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, we don't know yet whether this will be a significant offensive or not --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 15:57, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Should this page be titled Kharkiv Campaign instead?

In my opinion, the title "2024 Kharkiv Offensive" for this page is not quite accurate. Why?

Because the definition of "Counter Offensive" itself according to Merriam-Webster is "a large-scale military offensive undertaken by a force previously on the defensive". And also, it has not been a full day since this campaign was launched, so the Counteroffensive that is meant is more of a first defense effort. Bukansatya (talk) 16:50, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

It should be 2024 Kharkiv offensive, not counteroffensive but it didn't even start for sure. 37.248.161.197 (talk) 17:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Makes more sense. If the name of this page is changed to "2024 Kharkiv Offensive". With that, it can cover many events and battles that may occur in the near future without limiting the content. The page does not only focus on the defensive efforts of Ukrainian forces, but can also cover events such as the battle of Volchansk that are likely to happen soon. Bukansatya (talk) 18:14, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

"Russia began a new wave of offensive actions in this (Kharkiv's) direction. Ukraine met them (Russian forces) there with our troops, brigades, and artillery," Zelensky said during the press briefing with Slovak President Zuzana Caputova in Kyiv.

Source: https://kyivindependent.com/zelensky-russia-launches-new-counteroffensive-in-kharkiv-oblast/ (jabz) 18:15, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I've already reviewed the article, and while I appreciate the information presented, I believe there's a slight bias in the framing. Russia initiated an offensive operation that hasn't even been underway for a full day and lacks a dedicated page, while the counteroffensive announced by Zelensky has its own page. In my interpretation, aims to halt Russian advances and prevent them from reaching Ukraine's northernmost defense line. Of course, this is just my perspective, and I'm open to hearing your thoughts as well. Bukansatya (talk) 18:29, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Too early to call it an offensive

Yeah we have to follow the very reliable mainstream media whatever but we have to at least wait until some times later until the Russian did indeed launch a large scale offensive. This is just one day and even a mainstream media article like this https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2024-05-10/russia-trying-to-break-through-ukraine-defenses-kharkiv-region-zelensky was unsure if it was a large scale attacks or just a feint. Also many media have the habit of proclaiming this and that as a Russian objective and when the Russia didn't actually do it the media claim the Russian failed on achieving it. Too early for this article. Dauzlee (talk) 17:12, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Timeline Adjustments?

Is it possible rather than doing it by day we should sort it by May 10th-June 1st? SCPdude629 (talk) 20:02, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Is it possible for you to provide any reasons as to why this should be done? SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 22:54, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

If the structure of the article must be adjusted, my preference is to separate it geographically, between events of the Vovchansk area and the Lyptsi area. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 06:52, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Baltic fleet in Kharkiv?

Is the Russian Baltic Fleet actually engaging in the kharkiv offensive or is that some false info someone edited in the information box? 2A02:8108:9940:24B8:2160:79C0:5E29:F227 (talk) 19:32, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I think someone made a mistake. Bortak42 (talk) 21:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

May have been Naval Infantry units idk RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 03:21, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes it’s correct, the 11th AC (a Coastal Troops formation from East Prussia Kaliningrad Oblast. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 03:22, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I believe military infobox guidelines would advise against including higher-order units like the Russian Navy or the Baltic Fleet here. Paging @Cinderella157 for assistance. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 14:31, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Obviously inappropriate because it is misleading - was it all of the Baltic Fleet? I have amended the infobox, though the order of battle isn't in a great state either. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:47, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Changes

The areas controlled by Russia are already connected, but this is not on the map and at least 11, if not more, villages are controlled. Bortak42 (talk) 21:28, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Would you provide a source for that claim? The major map sources and news outlets don't seem to be making the claim. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 21:35, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

On page there is that Zelene was captured yesterday and Lukiantsi was captured today. Bortak42 (talk) 09:50, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

The Zelene capture was not confirmed. In fact, it seems now that Ukraine regained control over it. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 15:55, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Battle of Vovchansk

@Super Dromaeosaurus: I was editing the Battle of Vovchansk page trying to improve it, then i noticed you put a redirect to this page. Don't you think it's significant enough to have it's own page? I feel like it is similar to the Battle of Balakliia during the 2022 Kharkiv counteroffensive. Some references citing about this battle: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] I Know I'm Not Alone (talk) 18:37, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

There should be a separate article because this is a battle that could be written about more. Bortak42 (talk) 18:42, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

We can write more about anything. But not anything should have a page. Super Ψ Dro 18:44, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

This article has only 1,103 words. The recommended length that an article must have to split another article from it is 6,000–8,000 (see WP:SIZESPLIT). We have way too many people creating way too many articles for random engagements of the war. Have you noticed other wars don't have such long campaignboxes as the one of this war does? [6]. Vovchansk in particular is the largest inhabited place directly affected by this offensive. I don't see why should we split covering fighting in the most important place of this offensive into another article. That strips this article from covering a big part of the scope it is supposed to cover. I invite you to expand this article instead. It is also worth mentioning that the 2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive, larger in scope and more important so far, does not have any articles on battles in individual villages. Super Ψ Dro 18:43, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply, regarding the length of the campaignbox you could also argue this about the creation of pages for every missile strike or bombing. Half of those articles in the campaignbox are not even about battles or offensives in this war, but it does make the campaignbox itself longer. I Know I'm Not Alone (talk) 19:10, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

You're correct in that, though I think they're supposed to be included. Super Ψ Dro 19:34, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't see anything in Template:Campaignbox/doc indicating that we have to include all of these bombings, it might be worth looking into how much the campaignbox can be shortened if some of the less notable incidents are excluded. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 16:24, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

@SaintPaulOfTarsus: I also agree that such bombings should be removed from the campaign box. They are only relevant for the articles of the places where they occurred (or dedicated bombing compilation articles/templates), but are meaningless for the development/progression of the war. Furthermore, they'll always suffer from selection/omission bias as we know editors are more likely to write more about Russian strikes in Ukraine than Ukrainian strikes in Russia, Donbas and Crimea; reflecting the same omission bias of the Western media. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 16:39, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Same goes to "massacre" links. Which are mostly from the beginning of the war, the peak moment of information warfare. Just keep articles with a battle and territorial change section. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 16:48, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

The battle is seemingly over anyway. Smeagol 17 (talk) 22:47, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

@Super Dromaeosaurus: Do you not think that the Battle of Vovchansk deserves to be a subsection separate from the rest of the timeline? If it isn't going to be a separate article, which I agree that it doesn't have to be, it still seems to be one of the main objectives of this offensive (behind theoretically Kharkiv) and should warrant being separate from the main timeline, as I originally had it so when I copied some content over from the redirected article. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 23:39, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

What about separate it by direction/front, like in the 2023 counteroffensive page? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 00:47, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

At least for now there is only the two fronts of toward Vovchansk and toward Kharkiv, and it is likely the two directions will connect in the coming days. Vovchansk so far has been seen to be the only real "battle" of the offensive, with the rest being routine village captures (all with populations under 2,000) that have not involved any urban warfare like that seen in Vovchansk, hence why I wanted the main timeline and Vovchansk separate. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 00:57, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

👍 Alexis Coutinho (talk) 01:10, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I think we should either have a timeline or divide engagements by geography. Not both at the same time. All battle articles eventually drop the timeline anyway. Super Ψ Dro 07:23, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I do think engagements should be divided by geography, but as I said it is hard to do now as the two "fronts" will likely merge in the coming days or week and thus the only distinct geographical difference one can make for now is in Vovchansk. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 14:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

By the way, there is a dedicated timeline linked under the Timeline section. Therefore, this article doesn't need to force itself to cover events in chronological order. As such, date subsections would be better displayed as separate paragraphs instead. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 15:52, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

• The section is the exact same as last time I merged it. I will merge it again if it gets further neglected by editors. It seems editors prefer the timeline for now. Super Ψ Dro 11:00, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

  At this stage, it can simply be a section, and once the battle is over, you can think about a more developed version as an article, but not necessarily. Bortak42 (talk) 11:22, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

"Capture" vs "recapture"

I know this is small but saying "Russia recaptures" in the infobox makes it sound like they were Russian settlements that were captured and occupied by Ukraine when it was actually the other way around during the 2022 offensive. Cganuelas (talk) 11:34, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

We cannot always write both precisely and understandable by those with zero background knowledge. Smeagol 17 (talk) 12:41, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

It may make it sound like that, but it still is true that Russia captured them initially and is now capturing them a second time two years later, thus they recaptured them. To anyone who knows that the captured villages are actually in Ukraine it should be obvious that they were not Russian territory prior to 2022. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 12:48, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

"President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday hailed Russian advances in the Kharkiv region and the recapture of a symbolic town further south that was one of the only prizes of Ukraine's underwhelming counteroffensive last summer".[7] Mellk (talk) 03:48, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

• I've written "reoccupies" instead. This in my view fixes the issue. Super Ψ Dro 10:27, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

  It's less neutral though... Alexis Coutinho (talk) 16:28, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Casualty Claims

There seems to be a bias of information here as Ukraine claims a number of losses while the other side seems irresponsive or vague. Even if Ukraine claims to have killed over 1500 troops, there's no way of knowing due to fog or war and lack of official estimation. This feels like a ploy to lie and boost morale rather than stating what was hidden between the lines. SCPdude629 (talk) 03:16, 16 May 2024 (UTC)SCPdude629

Personally I would just omit such casualty figures from either side since they are all bogus, unless of course a certain figure was widely mentioned in RS. Mellk (talk) 03:56, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Casualty claims in this war are mostly a form of information warfare and as such should not be given too much attention nor propagated, especially in infoboxes. I just moved the claim as first step to take a compromise, but if there's rough consensus, then I guess we could remove it and only cover good quality estimates. Daily casualty figures also suffer from WP:NOTNEWS. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 12:36, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

By the way, the Russian MoD does give daily updates on Ukrainian personnel and material losses in their Telegram. But nobody covers it, so even I thought they didn't make estimates until a few days ago. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 12:38, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Ukrainian MoD does exactly the same on their twitter and their estimates are completely off the moon. Bortak42 (talk) 17:23, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

• Agreed. It is too early to tell and the only ones listing casualties are coming from the horses' anus that is, the Ukrainian and Russian MOD. It is best to remove it until we get a clearer picture (i.e. third party estimations). 42Grunt (talk) 05:01, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  I somewhat disagree, meaning that I feel they should at least be mentioned on the page, but we need to properly label them as either Russian or Ukrainian claims, rather than as fully "confirmed". I also think they shouldn’t be in the infobox until the battle is over, but only with the above stipulation. Tomissonneil (talk) 14:15, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

This claim refers to total losses across all of Ukraine, not just this offensive. I’ve removed it, as it’s well outside the scope of this page, and replaced with claimed casualties in just this sector, which is much lower. Tomissonneil (talk) 14:11, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

👍 Alexis Coutinho (talk) 20:56, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 May 2024

Replace the {{See also|Territorial control during the Russo-Ukrainian War#2024 Kharkiv offensive}} (located in section "Offensive") with {{See also|Territorial control during the Russo-Ukrainian War}} Hoben7599 (talk) 03:15, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Why though? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 14:03, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Myrealnamm's Alternate Account (talk) 15:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Casualty claims

Someone please finally remove these casualty claims, because it's no longer funny. Bortak42 (talk) 10:38, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

It might be better to make that section balanced instead. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 21:08, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Do the Russian MoD’s casualty claims on Telegram refer specifically to the Kharkiv Offensive, or to total losses across Ukraine? I’m not fluent in Russian, and don’t have telegram, so I don’t know. Tomissonneil (talk) 22:47, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

They break it down by sector. For example, in the first section of today's report about the Kharkov region they write:

The losses of the Ukrainian Armed Forces amounted to up to 150 military personnel, a tank, two armored combat vehicles and two cars.
During the counter-battery fight, the following were hit: a 122 mm Grad MLRS combat vehicle, a Polish-made 155 mm Krab self-propelled artillery mount, a 155 mm Bogdan self-propelled artillery mount, and a 122 mm Gvozdika self-propelled artillery mount.
The field ammunition depot of the Ukrainian Armed Forces was destroyed.

which sounds realistic/feasible ngl. I used the browser built-in page translation feature to keep the text formatting. Then the bullet points will split the sections. In the last section in part 2, they give the total material losses:

In total, since the beginning of the special military operation, the following have been destroyed: 601 aircraft, 274 helicopters, 24,271 unmanned aerial vehicles, 522 anti-aircraft missile systems, 16,074 tanks and other armored combat vehicles, 1,304 combat vehicles of multiple launch rocket systems, 9,664 field artillery guns and mortars, as well as 21,783 units of special military vehicles.

which isn't what we want though.

Therefore, one could write weekly partials in this sector of the front (not 100% sure if they themselves write weekly partials). Alexis Coutinho (talk) 01:31, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Casualties and war crimes

Needless to say, let's be very careful when covering such allegations. It wouldn't be a surprise for such Ukrainian (and Russian) statements to be used for information warfare. The statements could be distorted, biased, taken out of context, amplified, etc. Extra scrutiny should also be employed when selecting sources to not include sensationalist publications. Avoid claims, cover facts. In this stage of the offensive, the best we can do is add detail to the 'Offensive' section. Talk about the advances, battles, village captures, etc. Stuff that can be immediately verified, as was done with the battle of Avdiivka. Thanks. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 17:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

It is one side that has committed hundreds of war crimes and killed thousands of civilians. I completely reject bothsideism here. You inserted some original research hidden comments into the content. Regarding the looting I can clearly see it is a house and not some kind of military depot or something. We have an entire article dedicated to Russians looting Ukraine [8] so it shouldn't be too surprising. It's not like we're supposed to be the ones analysing evidence, that is the work of sources, and unlike RT or Sputnik for example, Militarnyi has not been deprecated as a reliable source. If its reliability is to be doubted a deprecation process should be started first.

Regarding the basements thing not being a war crime I can agree but I think you'd agree the info does fit with the rest. Perhaps the subsection's title can be renamed. And regarding the human sheilds claim I have to agree that it seems dubious but I still think it is worth including. I think your addition of "alleged" was appropriate wording. Super Ψ Dro 22:04, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Agree, no Wikipedia:FALSEBALANCE. Alleged? What do the sources say? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 22:07, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Because other wars are more interesting to media today most of these events have went unreported by Western media. Trust me, I'd rather use The Guardian or The New York Post before Ukrainian websites I've seen three times before, specifically to avoid situations like these. Maybe the ISW has something about to say about these cases though. Super Ψ Dro 22:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

👍. Though you would still need to see through the ISW bias to check if there are actual facts. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 22:55, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi there again. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 22:53, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:FALSEBALANCE is not applicable here. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 23:36, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Regarding Where are the Russian allegations of Ukrainian soldiers dressing up as civilians to escape? I hadn't heard about them before and you can add them. About Isn't failing to evacuate the civilians (especially those who can't run) also a Ukrainian war crime? feel free to add them if you find reliable sources though I really hate that sentence for several reasons. Super Ψ Dro 22:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Who said it's a war crime? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 22:18, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Pretty sure they're referring to an inline comment by @Alexiscoutinho in this revision, where he said that comment along with many others about how the (allegations of) war crimes section is greatly unbalanced. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 22:28, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I hadn't heard about them before and you can add them. Unsurprisingly the Russian allegations come from Russian analysts and milbloggers. Iirc, one or two people said that, but a few days ago. Won't be easy to find in Telegram. I also don't follow Russian media much to know if they give voice to such claims, like pro-Ukrainian media. though I really hate that sentence for several reasons. Yeah I know. I meant it more sarcastically. The locals had enough time to evacuate if they wanted. Those who stayed made their choice and accepted the risk (and if they couldn't move but wanted to go, then the Ukrainians should have evacuated them. I'm referring to the wheelchair guy. Seriously, what was he doing there?! In the middle of the road where hell was breaking loose. That story still has many unknowns). There could be many reasons why the other civilians stayed. You can't put all the blame on the Russians if something happens to some of those who choose to stay. This is war and Ukraine knew an offensive was looming.

Oh, and regarding that human shield claim, I think we could reinclude it with balance, i.e. Ukrainian soldiers also took positions in that hospital that was later obliterated. That could also be considered using human shield if civilians were inside. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 23:15, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

It is one side that has committed hundreds of war crimes and killed thousands of civilians. I completely reject bothsideism here. Come on man... You know Western English media has complete domination over this information space. Furthermore, the past is the past. Let's not carry past biases into this battle of Vovchansk that's only a couple of days old.

You inserted some original research hidden comments into the content. What OR? It's just a comment. I mean something that would normally go in a talk page. I put it there as motivation/basis for this discussion. I think it can be removed now.

Regarding the looting I can clearly see it is a house and not some kind of military depot or something. That still doesn't mean anything. That 'white thing' could literally be anything. Could be an injured baby, an injured dog, a bomb, something left behind by Ukrainian troops (idk a beacon?), some gold bars, etc. Do you really think these soldiers would risk their lives clustering like that near a vehicle when there are constant FPV drone strikes and even Ukrainian airstrikes happening around just to steal food or whatever idk? That's why I insist that statement is propagandistic until more evidence is given/a proper investigation is conducted.

We have an entire article dedicated to Russians looting Ukraine That mostly covers events from 2 years ago. Should be not used as evidence here.

It's not like we're supposed to be the ones analysing evidence, that is the work of sources, and unlike RT or Sputnik for example, Militarnyi has not been deprecated as a reliable source. I don't like that argument. We still have the duty to build and encyclopedia and report events with due weight and no POV pushing. The whole point of this discussion is to make sure we don't fall into information/propaganda warfare.

If its reliability is to be doubted a deprecation process should be started first. I hope we can establish a local consensus about that specific case here though.

Regarding the basements thing not being a war crime I can agree but I think you'd agree the info does fit with the rest. Perhaps the subsection's title can be renamed. And regarding the human sheilds claim I have to agree that it seems dubious but I still think it is worth including. I think your addition of "alleged" was appropriate wording. 👍. The wording is important. If we convey that those are still allegations without definitive conclusions, then I'm not really against keeping them. But I still think the commented out things are kinda cheap accusations, not quite encyclopedic. I didn't outright remove them because I thought they could be relevant in the future (i.e. could turn out to be true). For now, I would prefer to reword them or keep them stashed until more evidence is given (WP:ECREE). Alexis Coutinho (talk) 22:53, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Come on man... You know Western English media has complete domination over this information space. so I don't want this to become WP:FORUM but let's just say that hasn't avoided people from knowing Israel has killed over 30,000 civilians. The truth always comes out. What OR? It's just a comment. I mean something that would normally go in a talk page. well it was unsourced reasoning. Indeed it should have gone first here.

I simply do not agree with your view on the looting video so I think it's best to let it to a third opinion (perhaps Cinderella157 can help here). But we currently have sources claiming looting and no sources saying otherwise. My point with the RT-Sputnik thing was that we have no reason for now to doubt Militarnyi as a valid source. Therefore we have information that is verified by a source. No reason to remove. That the article about Russians looting Ukraine hasn't been updated is irrelevant, and we have no reason to believe Russian forces have become more humane.

As for the subsection title on second thought I think it is appropriate to leave as is. So it's just the looting and human shields issues that are pending. Super Ψ Dro 08:03, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I propose that if we find certain cases problematic we still mention them briefly. Something like "Ukrainian officials/police/media reported on instances of looting, killing of civilians, taking of civilians captive and use of human shields". I think it is of the readers' interest to know one side is acussing the other of certain war crimes, so that they can perhaps read into the possibly non-encyclopedic details of these cases. Super Ψ Dro 08:09, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

@Cinderella157: If you don't mind, what are your thoughts? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 23:17, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, this is sourced to Ukrainian outlets that simply repeat the claims by authorities. For exceptional claims like these, we are not going to write this in wikivoice while using articles by anonymous authors from an outlet like Militarnyi [9]. For example, the Guardian says "Ukrainian officials have accused Russian soldiers in Vovchansk of capturing dozens of civilians and using them as 'human shields' to defend their command headquarters – a claim that has not yet been independently verified."[10]. Mellk (talk) 10:31, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Tatarigami_UA

Tatarigami_UA (a ukranian officer considered a reliable source by Oryx blog among others) recently did a thread debunking an economist article, so i hope this article won't end up as a source here

https://x.com/Tatarigami_UA/status/1792832017807380515 D1d2d3d29 (talk) 09:46, 21 May 2024 (UTC)