Talk:Palestinian suicide attacks

Undiscussed move

@ScottishFinnishRadish: This page was reverted after a request at WP:RMUM as undiscussed and mover has moved it back again. Ordinarily I would just move it back but since I would not like to be accused of tag teaming or something, I would merely point to Ngram and ask you to do it instead.Selfstudier (talk) 17:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC) Ops, meant to write WP:RM/TR there, silly me. Selfstudier (talk) 18:08, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

It was created at this title, moved to Palestinian suicide bombing, then reverted back to this title? As Ngrams aren't the deciding factor in article titles, and it does show the use of Palestinian suicide terrorism, this should probably just go through RM and have a consensus title. Palestinian suicide attacks might also be a better target as there are suicide attacks that are not bombings. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:20, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

@ScottishFinnishRadish: The discussion on whether to color this topic with the POV language of "terrorism", to which the answer is pretty clearly not, per MOS:TERRORISM, has been had reiteratively and redundantly many times. The edit summary character limit unfortunately cut it off, but the technical request referred to the latest standing RM on the matter of whether this language is appropriate in this topic area at the clear parent topic for the particular subject here. This community consensus was reconfirmed, in effect, in this follow-up category renaming discussion. Sure we can allow POV terms to be reintroduced every time someone creates a racey new article, but it would be much more sensible if we let previous RFCs and community consensus speak to something. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:55, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I understand why some might hesitate to label entire organizations—especially those involved in governance, religion, and social issues—as purely terrorist. However, it is unreasonable to ignore that suicide bombings deliberately targeting civilians for political purposes fit every definition of terrorism. Removing the term 'terrorism' in this context would be nothing short of censorship, an attempt to obscure the true nature of these actions, which, in my opinion, contradicts the very aims of this project. UnspokenPassion (talk) 19:26, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Except not all of the suicide bombings here target civilians, as the usage notes, and suicide bombings against military targets in the context are absolutely not terrorism, so by virtue of this, the title is immediately not only POV, but a clear misnomer. More generally, if you have to write a convoluted sentence like "suicide terrorism refers to the use of suicide bombings" then your actual topic is suicide bombing, which is a real subject, as opposite to suicide terrorism, which is just a POV framing and redirect to suicide attack. There are good reasons for that, not least MOS:TERRORISM, i.e. Nelson Mandela was previously considered a terrorist, yada yada, etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:00, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't see any connection between the disputed labeling of figures and the current topic. Suicide bombings, such as the Passover massacre and the Dolphinarium discotheque massacre, that target civilians to achieve political goals, are universally recognized as the epitome of terrorism—except perhaps by the perpetrators themselves. Are you suggesting that these events might one day not be considered terrorism? If this point isn't clear, I am afraid, continuing this discussion may be futile. Terrorism is a fact in our world; not every mention of it is a matter of POV framing. UnspokenPassion (talk) 20:18, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Phrases like "epitome of terrorism" and "terrorism is a fact" are not encyclopedic. The concept of "terrorism" is highly contingent on framing. Individual examples are not important. The issue here is the POV framing of an entire topic, despite it encompassing non-applicable examples. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:41, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Don't waste time arguing over this, RM opened. Selfstudier (talk) 20:43, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

POV title

POV article/title by 500+ newish editor (who apropos of nothing at all, also opposed move to UNRWA and Israel here and at MR for Gaza genocide here commented "*Overturn (uninvolved). The new title clearly violates WP:NPOV...!!" Horses for courses, I guess. Selfstudier (talk) 17:32, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

The article looks very professional and impressive. The issue of the "newish editor" keeps being raised, but there are rules, and as it stands, it seems that they have not violated them. You haven't raised a substantive argument related to the content. Eladkarmel (talk) 18:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh hi, just dropped in to say hello? otherwise, no surprise there. Selfstudier (talk) 18:41, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand. What do you mean by that? Eladkarmel (talk) 19:08, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Regarding "there are rules, and as it stands, it seems that they have not violated them". They have very likely violated the WP:SOCK rule. Does this matter in the topic area? Apparently not. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:13, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Can you name the editor, or are you expectig us to guess his/her identity? Dimadick (talk) 01:43, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 21 August 2024

Palestinian suicide terrorism → Palestinian suicide bombings – WP:POVTITLE, all the lead content and pic refer to "bombings" which suggests this material has just been copied from somewhere else and then the title plonked on top, MOS:TERRORISM refers for a value laden label and remove any attacks that are not bombings. Also note What links here, Palestinian suicide bombings, List of Palestinian suicide attacks redirected by article creator to this article. Selfstudier (talk) 20:42, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Support: This page was unfortunately created with a title that is POV and both lacking in precision and consistency with adjacent topics and itself. As noted by the nom, suicide bombings and suicide attacks are the normal terms for this and adjacent topics, while all of the language on the page refers to bombings. The current title creates the rather hamfisted situation of the first sentence having to clarify that the subject is actually suicide bombing, since the title doesn't elucidate this. The natural, recognisable, precise and usefully descriptive language for the topic is "suicide bombings", as stated in the first sentence. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Support per NPOV and MOS:TERRORISM as an improvement, but really, shouldn't we be talking merge? Suicide attack and Palestinian political violence are notable topics; are Suicide bombing, Palestinian suicide attack, or Palestinian suicide bombing, notable sub-topics? Does it matter if a suicide attack is a bombing or something else? Does it matter if it's Palestinian or someone else? Is there a size problem or other reason to spin off bombings from other attacks, Palestinians from other attackers, or both sub-categories, Palestinian and bombings? I don't think there are enough RS specifically about Palestinian suicide bombings, or suicide bombings in general, to justify a stand-alone. So I'm at "should this article exist?" Levivich (talk) 22:15, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

A person who was not advancing a political agenda would ask themselves this question before creating this article: "Is there something distinctive about suicide bombings carried out by Palestinians?" There is a clear answer to that question, and it points to what should be done with this article. Of course that won't happen. So it goes, so it goes.Dan Murphy (talk) 22:23, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose The main article is suicide attack and it covers other types of attacks as well. I suggest a rename to Palestinian suicide attacks. Dimadick (talk) 01:50, 22 August 2024 (UTC)