Talk:Robert Latimer

(UTC)

/Archive 1

Recent edits

I have been trying to work with you, S.T. Webb, and have not removed most of the content you have recently added, just formatted and referenced it correctly, moved it to places where the flow is better, and removed point-of-view wording where appropriate/incorrect. I have reverted your latest additions because I do not believe that the extra details and quotes add anything substantial to the article. You also removed sourced information about possible pain control in hospital. Wikipedia needs to have an article that is of neutral point of view a "neutral point of view is a point of view that is neutral, that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject". The pattern of your edits (as well as your history) suggests that you are trying to push your sympathetic point of view about Robert Latimer by giving Undue weight to certain pieces of information, which is unhelpful for the article.--Slp1 11:48, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

TO Slp1: Excuse me, but Wikipedia administrators themselves are supposed to tbe fair and neutral. Time and time again, you are proving yourself to be neither. You lecture me about having a neutral point-of-view, but you immediately and systematically edit or delete any and all information which could be considered favourable to Robert Latimer's case.

For example, you left in the direct and extremely inflammatory direct quotes from the Crown prosecutors' brief but removed both the direct quote from the Supreme Court judgment which described the severity of the latest surgery planned for Tracy AND the direct quote from Dr. Dzus' sworn testinmony concerning the incredible pain associated with this surgery. These you replaced with your own filtered version of events. You also deleted the fact that the doctors involved suggested that further surgery would be required in the future, again a direct quote from the Supreme Court decision.

For months, you left in a statement that would lead readers to erroneously believe that the surgery planned for Tracy was a rather routine hip replacement. You didn't edit or correct that until after I had pointed out the truth.

For months, you left in an introductory description of Tracy's condition which didn't even mention the pain she was suffering. You didn't edit and correct that until after I had pointed out the truth.

For months, you left in the first names of the Latimers' siblings. You didn't bother to edit that; someone else had to do it.

Readers can refer to the RobertLatimer.net website and then decide who is being factual, honest and fair. —Preceding unsigned comment added by S. T. Webb (talk • contribs) 22:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello S.T.,
I am afraid you are mistaken about a few things. Firstly, I am not an administrator. Secondly, I am not responsible for this article. Thirdly, your 3 "for months" statements are incorrect. See for example [1] [2]. Fourthly, I do not have a point of view about this very sad story, except that there are two sides to be told. The fact that you describe the clearly (and appropriately) partisan Latimer website as "factual, honest and fair" shows your bias yet again. There is no problem with pushing a pro-Latimer agenda on that website, but this is Wikipedia and this article needs to be balanced. I am afraid that your obvious (and understandable) sympathy for the man means that you may not be the best judge of what neutral is, and that has showed in your edits both in the article and on the talkpage of this article. Slp1 22:48, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

TO: Slp1

It is obvious that nothing constructive will result from our continuing this exchange at this time, except to offer an indisputable and self-evident correction concerning you comments with reference to the RobertLatimer.net website. I did not describe the RobertLatimer.net website as "factual, honest and fair" as you claim. I am confident that interested readers are quite capable of making such a judgment on their own. What I said was, "Readers can refer to the RobertLatimer.net website and then decide who is being factual, honest and fair." —Preceding unsigned comment added by S. T. Webb (talk • contribs) 00:44, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

You are quite right about this. I apologize for presuming your intent of your remark, though given your previous comments such as [3], [4] and [5], my error is perhaps somewhat understandable.--Slp1 01:47, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Recent edits

I recently removed (twice) variations on

"In his article published by the Winnipeg Free Press on January 11, 2008, Professor Schafer also points out the fact as established by legal scholars such as the late Barney Sneiderman (Canadian Medical Law - 3rd Edition) and Bernard Dickenson that Robert Latimer is the only person in Canadian history to spend even a single day in prison for a mercy killing. ( robertlatimer.net - Professors and Professionals - Arthur Schafer - Justice denied..... Latimer case exposes flaws in legal system )"

There are several reasons: Firstly, in his article Schafer makes no mention of the late Barney Sneiderman or Bernard Dickenson.[6]. Secondly, while Schafer in his opinion column does say that "Interestingly, Robert Latimer is the only person in Canadian history to spend even a single day in prison for a mercy killing" that does not make it "a fact as established by legal scholars". Statements like this need to be verifiable and this sentence is not. A minor issue is that article was actually published in the Free Press on December 7 2007, not January 11, 2008 as stated. However the article itself is interesting, and I added it along with an extension of Shafer's opinion of the case, to the article, though with a link to the Winnipeg FP, not the copyright version at Latimer's website. [7] I thank you, S. T. Webb, S.T. Webb and IP 70.66.167.200 (whom I presume are all one and the same) for bringing the new article up.--Slp1 (talk) 12:46, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I have again removed the edits of S. T. Webb/IP 70.66.167.200. [8] Here are my reasonings this time:

• I removed several of S. T's signatures from the top of the page, likely inserted in error.
• I removed the addition that "could possibly kill her" because it is a misrepresentation of the source given. The defence lawyer said `might well conceivably kill her' not Dr. Dzus.
• The letter by Dr. D.B. Stewart is not considered a reliable source by WP since it has not "been published by a reliable, third-party with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." (see verifiability for more info.) In addition it is not clear why Stewart's opinion on this subject is notable or even interesting given that he was an obstetrician [9] [10], and therefore would have little knowledge of feeding tubes in the disabled and how they are tolerated. He certainly does not qualify "as an established expert on the topic of the article". His opinion has not been cited by any other third party source, based on a Factiva newspaper archive search. Finally, and irrelevantly because original research, my personal experience indicates that Stewart's comments about children with PEGs needing to be tied down are in fact false.
• I returned "pointed out" to "argued". "Pointed out" is a Point of View vocabulary choice in relation to Schafer's comment as it implies that his statement is true, which is contrary to WP's policy on neutral point of view
• I removed the addition of the following piece of unsourced opinion and apparent original research. "This is pure conjecture on Coyne's part and he provides not scientific evidence whatever to support his speculation"

Slp1 (talk) 13:29, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted the latest edit [11] from S. T. Webb/IP 70.66.167.200 while leaving a bunch of his/her edits of earlier this week which are fine by me. I have two reasons for this... S. T. Webb/IP 70.66.167.200 has long been trying to use this page to push his point of view of Tracy's situation, contrary to WP:SOAPBOX, and this edit continues this trend. Secondly, S.T's recent trend has been to include large chunks of testimony from Dr. Dzus, a primary source which that can be used "but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them". See WP:PSTS for details of the policy. I believe that the most recent edit is just such as misuse, as S. T. Webb/IP 70.66.167.200 is using cherry picked quotes in order to advance his/her position that Latimer's actions were appropriate, contrary to NPOV. Slp1 (talk) 21:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

On reflection, I also think we need to think about whether this testimony hosted on Robert Latimer's website qualifies as a reliable source. I have asked for the opinion of other editors here,[12] in case anybody wants to give their opinion there. Slp1 (talk) 02:00, 27 March 2008 (UTC)