Talk:Vicente Fox

NPOV dispute over section on Fox's racist comments

Even though Fox's comments vis-a-vis African Americans are considered racist by most people's standards, including my own, I find that, in keeping with NPOV, it would be better if the article were amended to include a more neutral reference to his comments, calling them "allegedly racist" or instead stating that there was a "controversy over comments he made about African Americans" rather than outright accusing him of Racism. A small issue, but, I think that calling someone racist, even if they appear to be racist, is not NPOV and should thusly be avoided in a neutral encyclopedia. In my view, references to Fox's comments should only state that there was a controversy over what he said, quote what he said, and mention that "some consider it racist". The article itself should not call him racist; that should be left to the reader's own judgement. --RichNYC87 04:05, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Fox's "racism"

I think someone should include a portion about Fox's racism.

Nobody know's if there is such, but the events that have lead some people to believe he is, have been written about in the article. (to sign posts type --~~~~ --Vizcarra 23:31, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I added some information concerning his alleged racist comments concernign African Americans and of Reverand Al Sharpton requesting a formal apology. Bnguyen 22:02, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I corrected spelling errors in this section (It's spelled "Reverend", with an "e"). --RichNYC87 03:59, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Quotes section

Since the quotes section only contained the quote Fox made that was considered racist, I moved that quote to the 'racist' section since it fits better there. Singling it out as the only quote in the entire quotes section is a violation of NPOV. --RichNYC87 04:08, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I wish i could be president

I mean seriously.. if I could be born to a wealthy family, i sure as hell know I wouldn't be driving a cocacola truck. But if that lands me the job as president as the united states......--Cyberman 23:52, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

to this article should be useful to mention that many Mexicans see Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador as a Hugo Chavez II, some one that thinks "mobs gives rights" and that politicians should be over the law, a populist, a demagogue.

How many is many?

It is clear for me that the person who wrote the paragraph above belongs to those mexicans he/she refers. I think that refering to Mr. Lopez Obrador as Hugo Chavez is only a way to demonize him.

It should be useful to mention that Mr. Lopez Obrador is the polititian with most popularity in Mexico, this is shown by poll results before the publication this comment. Mr. Lopez Obrador was the only mexican mayor finalist in the Wolrd Mayor Constest in 2004 [1]. He is also nominated for year 2005 [2]. (correction, he is the most popular in central Mexico; he holds no populartiuy in the north or south, or even in EdoMex.

I confess that I will vote for Mr. Lopez Obrador, in case he becomes candidate.

Mexico is a democracy, and people can prefer the polititician they want, although the candidate belongs to a left or conservative party. The latter was the case of Vicente Fox. Mexican people is dissapointed, so the results of the preference will be shown in the elections in 2006. Mexican people have the right to elect the politician they prefer and to have a left goverment. Will they be dissapointed? Fortunately Mexican people can express their preference in the next elections and vote for another candidate.

---

That is also your POV. Articles should remain neutral. Also why was the president order number removed? It took me a lot of time to put it under every mexican president. -Alan MB

I removed those, a few months ago, when the template was changed. It's not something we do with our presidents -- particularly with the various periods of anarchy / invasion /civil war in the 19th century, when numbering them 1-2-3 gives an inappropriate idea of continuity. Maybe there could be a case for numbering those who've held sequential office under the 1917 Constitution, since Carranza, although that's not something you see very often either. Would you care to discuss it? –Hajor 13:44, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hajor is right -numbering our presidents is a really strange idea. I don´t think Fox himself knows or cares which President he is. If you have a numbered list, perhaps it could be used in its own article (lists of mexican presidents) or something related to history. Asereje 03:55, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

POV

This article is absolutely riddled with POV statements. Does anyone want to take a crack at making it less POV?

The previous paragraph was written anonymously; it seems it was Wikilord who added a NPOV template to the article. Since there isn't an specific issue with Fox or the article currently discussed (not that it couldn't) I removed it; policy suggests there should be an ongoing discussion (or at least a previous list of specific issues) before such a template is used. Asereje 03:32, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It doesn't take much to point out the POV statements. "After an aggressive campaign, full of now self accepted demagogic promises and statements" "In a country ruled for 70 years by the same party, often subordinated to the president, change needed more than politic skill and diplomacy, and Fox had little of both." "stating that they caused Mexico 72 'lost years of development' (referring, inaccurately, to the time they held the presidency)" (clearly malicious). "Always a promoter of gender-equality in his speeches, addressing the audience as 'mexicanos and mexicanas', Fox's legal and extended cabinet is formed by 53 people, only four of whom are women." It seems like nothing but potshot after potshot. Imagine if the Bush article was riddled with nothing but attacks on his rhetoric and conservatism. magicOgre 20:45, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Solving POV would take a lot of work. However, Fox is a controversial president, particularly by his unique position of being the first oppposition president in 70 years, and Mexico having three strong political parties. I am actually quite surprised this article is not more POVed. Reaching a consensus of his legacy will be difficult because reality can be interpreted in many ways, particularly in such a complex country such as Mexico:

- How to measure poverty reduction?

- Is the Mexican Foreign Policy good or bad? (he changed 70 years of foreign policy doctrine making it more active, this is despised by some, and loved by some other... how to judge it objectively if he is still president and the full spectrum of results are not here yet?)

- How to validate what is written in the article? Most wikipedia articles just use sourcing. However, sourcing Mexican newspapers is not a good way to validate what is written because most Mexican papers are themselves biased (particularly La Jornada, and Excelsior). Is there any other way?

As you can see, this article has a lot of problems, not only in its content, but also in the ability of wikipedians to elevate his quality. However, doing it is necessary. Vicente Fox is a historical figure, and supporters and detractors alike agree that his actions are and will be greatly influential in the 11th most populated country of the planet (Mexico) (Hari Seldon 18:03, 7 May 2006 (UTC))

Infobox

Can we please, please modify (or simply get rid of) the dreadful infobox giving the category "Nationality:Not American"? This is absurd and offensive. -- Infrogmation 11:13, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

President No. nn

Opinions, please, regarding the inclusion of the presidential "order" number on Template talk:Infobox MexicanPresident. Tnx. –Hajor 6 July 2005 02:03 (UTC)

Which is Fox continually referred to, his government that is, as a "regime"? THat word carries a negative connotation, makes it sound like a dictatorship. That should be edited out.

Height

Somewhere it should be added that he is known for being a tall president. I have heard that he is either 6'4" or 6'5". I would have added the information myself but wasn't sure where it belongs. --MateoP 17:00, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

TV spots

Before and after his 5th Government Inform in September 1st, 2005, there have been numerous TV and radio spots with President Fox promoting himself as the "most democratic president in Mexico´s history" and the one that has had "most demands". These commercials have caused also controversy because of the exagerations and "marketing campaign style"

If you really look at the context behind it all, you would see he is right.-- Foxista.

NPOV

Although Fox does not have the best track record, this article seems anti-Fox, and someone should correct this.

I corrected some of the wording. Some of the "negative" aspectes are not necessarily POV, but public or expert opinion. If any of these are challenged, sources may be provided, or at least a note explaining it is an opinion. Could someone else check on this? --Vizcarra 19:00, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

It is unbelievable that this article doesn't deal with al the issues that have made the Fox administration one of the most chaotics in the history of Mexico. It is completely biased--tequendamia 08:47, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

NPOV 2: The Sequel

This article cannot be biased for being too "negative" or not enough "negative" at the same time. Please discuss specific issues first. --Vizcarra 17:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Pronouncing Fox's name

As Fox has an Anglo surname, I wonder how it is pronounced: as "Fox" is in English, or differently? I was hoping wikipedia could tell me this. -- Kalimac, 14 November 2005

As the article explains, he is of Irish-American ancestry. "Fox" is an English word. So it should be pronounced as it is in English. In the Spanish-speaking word it is pronounced as it reads in Spanish F + oh + X. --Vizcarra 17:56, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

How is that different from the English? where we also pronounce it F + oh + X. I would say it is pronounced exactly the same, and by all means put this in the article Kalimac, SqueakBox 18:16, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, in English it is pronounced Focks, in spanigh "o" as in "ohhhh". So, different. --Vizcarra 18:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

It may well be different in the States, especially in somewhere like Alabama, than how it is in the south of England, where we definitely do not dipthong the o in fox, as it would sound like folks. Dipthonging words in a different way is a fundamental difference between American and British English. On the other hand I believe you give any pronounciation instructions to a Spanish speaker who doesn't speak English and vice-versa and they will come up with very different sounds, which is why it is so difficult for even fluent adult speakers to rid themselves of their foreign accent, SqueakBox 18:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand the dipthong thing, but it sounds weird to me. The "h" has no sound by itself; writing "ohhhh" with lots of "h" simply means to pronounce a single o for a long time, without interruptions. Saying Fox with a long, single "o" is really weird; saying Fox with two o's, in two syllables, is wrong in Mexico and probably also in the US. Writing "oh" with a single "h" doesn't really change the sound but the tone, it's just a writing device to differentiate between "?Oh, estas ocupado?" (Oh, are you busy?) and "?O estas ocupado?" (Or are you busy?). From the Mexican point of view, U.S. people pronounce the o using two vowels: they read "o", the say "ou". So, a Mexican "o" is just the first half of a U.S. "o". BTW, I'm Mexican. Asereje 06:41, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

"Oh" instead of "o" is used to differentiate betwen the o in "auto" and the o in "home". --Vizcarra 22:52, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Not sure about that example as the final o is subtly dipthonged, we English speakers do that automatically and find the undipthonged o at the end of a word difficult and something we need to learn if we learn Spanish. But the o in question is within a word. The different sounds are more like the difference between home and hospital, with Fox being very much like hospital, SqueakBox 23:51, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I think you are trying to describe dipthonging which is the difference between an English no which is pronounced as if it ends in a w (rhymes with snow) and a Spanish o which even if extended just makes the simple o sound. I am a bit lost by ou. By writing oh I certainly did not mean an extended ooooo as in a long Spanish no sound but an o ending in a subtle dipthonged h as found in English words like folk, bloke, etc, and for which there is no equivalent in Spanish, as indeed there is no equivalent to the o sound ending in what sounds like a w, as in blow, which rhymes with no in English. We should get an audio pronounciation (by a Mexican) of his name, this discussion certainly justifies it and I believe it is technically easy to do, SqueakBox 13:56, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

///// In Mexico, and in all the spanish speaking countries, we pronounce the "o" in Fox the same as the "o" in "No" or the sound as in Door, or the "o" in "Short".

Some of you can say we pronounce it wrong, but every body pronounces foreing words with the rules of their own language. For example, eventhough the name of the city "Los Angeles" is Spanish, it is pronounced with the english rule. Or my name, for that matter, is an spanish name and no american can pronounce it right "Mauricio". //////

In central mexican spanish it would be /foks/ using the IPA alphabet. However, since everyone will pronounce it the way they can, according to their mother tongues and accents, I believe it not to be really important.

Actually it's not an Anglo surname, rather it's an Irish surname, but please continue...

Employment policy

Fox employment and jobs policy strongly relies on workers migration quotas to the US. Now that the US plans to build a wall along the border this policy looks doomed. This issue needs to be addressed in this article.--tequendamia 00:46, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Tequendamia: how about addressing it while providing the tons of evidence and verifable non-pov sources you surely have? (Hari Seldon 18:07, 7 May 2006 (UTC))

I heard he was born in 1952

The article does not talk about his early life.

Castro and Chavez

I think the reference to the controversy with Fidel Castro should be under "foreign policy", and be more widely commented, since it was quite important. Also, there is no reference to the more recent one with Hugo Chávez. Both lead to the withdrawal of mexican embassadors, in Cuba for a couple of months (being then changed) and in Venezuela to this day.

Height?

How tall is Sr Fox? In the the photo [Image:Fox-Bush_in_Crawford_TX.jpg] he appears to be quite tall. (Photo appears on page Laura Bush) -- Writtenonsand 17:49, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Offensive rant

No need to put your offensive rant here. Your comments could be construed as vandalism and wont gain yiou the support of admins. Desist, SqueakBox 14:15, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

his surname

why does he go by vicente fox if his surname is quesada? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doriandixon (talk • contribs)

See Iberian naming customs. --Nlu (talk) 06:46, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

You ask the same about Carlos Slim Helu. It's just the way Spanish people take last names. John wesley 19:06, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

thats not true about the spanish surnames. i went to school in a predominantly mexican school and most people went by their fathers surname.

In Spanish, or at least in Mexico, people have two surnames, the one of its father and the one of its mother. For more doubts please write your message here. Perdonen mi pésimo inglés. Saludos. Cesarhvr

my edit is not vandalism

nor will it ever be vandalism. further moreif you block me I will be unable to post any more messages till the block is lifted.

132.241.246.111 02:23, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

We would not want to miss your messages. Speaking of which, why not get a username, so "you" can have a specific identity. Sometimes we may have to block a user who isn't you, but who appears to be you because of the IP. Regarding vandalism, use the edit summary to properly explain why your edit isn't vandalism. As for this article, you (or this IP) seems to be adding material that is not so much biographical as attacking. Is this bill, which he has not even signed yet, truly an important biographical detail? Maybe, but as an encyclopedia we should not be in a hurry to decide. -Will Beback 08:03, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

First lady

"even the title "First Lady" does not officially exist"

Nor does it in the US, and quite possibly it doesn't exist anywhere. So is there an unofficial title like in the US or not?

NPOV

The article glorifies unnecessarily Vicente Fox's administration. Statements such as the following seem to disregard his use of the state's machine to attempt keeping Andrés Manuel López Obrador from appearing in the 2006 ballots:

"As President, Fox began to show his democratic spirit by fighting the long standing corruption within the federal government, by limiting his power to the Constitutional limits and granting more power to the state and municipal governments. In the international framework, he began to position Mexico as a leading democratic country in the hemisphere and gave priority to subjects such as international commerce, economic integration, migratory policies, defense of democracy and human rights, as well as fight against drug trafficking. On September, 2001, the National Endowment for Democracy granted him the Democracy Award 2001 and pointed him as a “hero of democracy”."

Not to mention the overall loss of jobs in the country, as well as a number of International scandals, such as the one with Cuba.

In my opinion, this article should not glorify this administration (or demean it), but if statements saying Fox has a democratic spirit and has managed to combar poverty keep appearing, there should be a "controversy" section attached as well.

RE: Please sign your comments. Apart from the "democratic spirit" phrase, what else do you see POV? The overall loss of jobs in the country, and the international scandals are menctioned in their respective sections. The truth is that Fox is a President that has shown a democratic spirit and has made a lot of mistakes as well. He has allowed protests and the organization of local governments to an extent never seen before. I don't think the paragrah 'glorifies' Fox, because such things are exactly what happened, even thouth the Cuba scandal and the overal loss of jobs also happened... Hari Seldon 21:24, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

The article does not "glorify" President Vicente Fox "unnecessarily". On the contrary, I believe it gives a right measure of his administration. He did some good things, and he screwed up a lot as well...

There are no evidence about his supposed "use of state machine to attempt keeping AMLO from appearing in ballots". He pardoned the guy after a near unanimous congress had convicted him!

The problems I see with the article as it stands now is only the absence of the Cuban situation, which I will add right now, and then I'll eliminate the NPOV tag.

Read the "economy" section and you'll see it CLEARLY states that he delivered mixed results. According to statistics from international and recognized organizations, President Fox's administration reduced poverty and lost 180,000 jobs. Both facts are stated. Where is the POV issue?

Hari Seldon 03:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

It does glorify him, very much so. What is "Democratic spirit"? Its just an empty positive emotive word to make fox look better. What are "good things" and what are "mistakes" are not for us to judge, and niether is it for us to judge the"mesure" of his administration. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a newspaper and it would be best for us to simply report the facts (and the controversy over those facts) without attaching useless emotive baggage to people. This artical also refers to the EZLN as a "problem" from this perspective it portrays the EZLN as bad and Fox is good. We should emphazize the conflict between the two without judging either as "good" or evil. It may also help to have a few words describing what the EZLN is (simply calling them "guerrilas" doesn't exactly help the average wiki reader) and the reasons for the conflict between them. Also "its and granting more power to the state and municipal governments. In the international framework, he began to position Mexico as a leading democratic country in the hemisphere and gave priority to subjects such as international commerce, economic integration, migratory policies, defense of democracy and human rights, as well as fight against drug trafficking." is very POV. Firstly it says that mexico is "a leading democratic country in the hemisphere". So now we make a random judgement call mesuring Mexicos democracy. What exactly IS democracy and how does one go a bbout mesuring it? Anyone got a democracy ruler? And then it goes on to connect "democracy" which we still can t define to "international commerce, economic integration, migratory policies, defense of democracy and human rights, as well as fight against drug trafficking." Whose to say that drug trafficing is or is not democratic? Whose to say that international commerce is Democratic? Many despotic rejimes have fought drug trafficing and also participated in international trade. Economic integration, migratoy policies and defense of Democracy (whatever that is) it goes on and on with one BS assumtion after another. The problem with this artical in terms of POV is not in its treatment of the man himself but that the whole artical is slanted towards the right.

--Reallybadtrip 02:18, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

"Democratic spirit" means "respect for the ideals of democracy". Those ideals are free elections, freedom of the press, and freedom of association. Fox has allowed free elections, in the federal and local arenas, and has respected the outcome of all of them, eventhough throughout his adminsitration, he lost most of them. Measuring free speech is difficult, but arguably, Fox's administration is the one that carried the most criticism against the Presidential institution than all previous administration's combined. Freedom of association can be seen by walking Paseo de la Reforma in DF. Nobody is arresting the PRD-led protests, because it is their right to associate.

I agree the EZLN can have a better description, but lets keep it short. This article is about Vicente Fox, not about the EZLN.

I don't think that the phrase you cite is POV. It is a summary of what Fox attempted to do. The article also cites criticsm in every subject he prioritized (such as, in the "democratic country in the hemisphere", there is criticism to how he conducted the OAS election candidacy, and in the "fight against drug trafficking" there is criticsm on how the cartels are fighting back).

International Commerce is not necessarily democratic, I agree. But that is why they are treated as different areas of work during Fox's administration. He favored democracy AND commerce, as two separate activities.

I don't believe that the article is "slanted towards the right". There is ample evidence to suggest that Vicente Fox did as described in the article: it contains its actions, its accomplishments, and its failures, all neatly organized. Fox is not a tyrant, he got to power through elections, and he respected ALL electoral processes and allowed them to be conducted in a fair way (at least, most analysts agree on this. Only pro-PRD press claims that the 2006 Federal Election -and only the presidential ballots, but not the legislative ballots- where tainted)...

If you want the article to be less POV, it would be best to FIRST dispose of your own POV...

If I have made a POV contribution to wikipedia then I would appreciate it if you would show it to me. I have my own personal POV as does everyone but wikipedia is not the place for that and if I have made POV contributions then I sincerely apologize for that

That said I still think that the artical is slanted at parts not so much in facts but in tone. For example (I have changed this) it talks about cuba and venezuala as "extreme" left governments. These governments are certianly left but they are no more "extreme" left than Mexico's policies are "extreme" right. Also the artical talks about "Castro's Cuba" and "Chavez's Venezuala" as though these are not the rightfull rulers of cuba and Venezuala. We don't talk about "bush's America" so why the double standard now?

As for "spirit of democracy" i've never heard of anything specific like that and cannot get a definative answer from google so I have to assume that you just made this up, it would be better to ditch it because:

1)It is positive and emotive 2)We don't know what it means or where it came from 3)It adds absolutely nothing to the artical

I like how the part on the EZLN is though, good job whoever did that.

--Reallybadtrip 17:39, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Just as an example, would someone please explain how:

"The incident generated criticism for President Fox and Castro for their lack of ethics in International Relations."

Is POV because it was reverted once now. The incedint certainly generated critisism for both rulers and I think that saying "you eat and you leave" is a pretty unethical thing to say (not saying that what castro did was nessasarily any better but this is why they should both be included in this sentance.)

--Reallybadtrip 17:52, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's discuss before editing. I've reverted your edits not because I want to block them, but because I think we should discuss them before.

First, let me apologize, I wasn't implying you made a POV contribution. I just thought that saying that the WHOLE article was "slanted towards the right" seemed very POVed, when the article contains a lot of criticism against Fox. I agree that some parts of the article are slanted towards the right, but not the WHOLE article...

I see your point on the "Relations with Latin American countries" section. Let me explain the reasons for the original wording:

1) Fox does not pick a fight with ALL Left governments. For example, Lula's government in Brazil is left, and Fox has not picked a fight with him, nor with Rodriguez Zapatero's government in Spain. The "extreme" was added to indicate that Fox had verbal fights with leaders of overtly communists countries, in this case Cuba and Venezuela.

2) "Castro's Cuba" and "Chavez's Venezuela" where added to indicate that the discrepancies where specifically with the government's leader, and not with the country in general. It would be more accurate to simply leave "Castro and Chavez" instead of "Cuba and Venezuela"...

I didn't add the "spirit of democracy", and I agree to remove the phrase. I can't seem to find the phrase anywhere on the text, so I can't remove it myself.

I did the EZLN part. I am glad you liked it.

About "the incident" you quote, it is simple:

The left critizied Fox for his lack of experience in dealing with foreign countries and for insulting Cuba, and newspapers around the world criticized Castro for taping foreign Presidents and blackmailing them (well, the blackmail part was said by the right, but it is still a criticism). For me, it is obvious that Casto was criticized for his lack of ethics and Fox for his lack of experience. The sentence should be split, though I agree that a rewording is required, but a more precise one.

I appreciate you working on this article. However, I think that discussion is important, and I would suggest you made a list of phrases you think are POV, and propose changes here. We can then discuss them and, when a consensus is reached, we can make the edit. What do you think? Hari Seldon 22:29, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I disliked the usage of the word "extreme" because

1) Extreme carries a negative emotive connotation (ie extremist) and thus is not as NPOV as I would like it,

and on an entierely different tangent

2)I thought that "extreme left" sounded like a synonome (pardon the spelling) for "Ultra left" a description that I dont think fits Cuba or Venezuala.

I have since found that "extreme left" directs to "far-left" which is both more nuetral and is more widely known then "extreme left" I think that we should change extreme to far; do you disagree?

--Reallybadtrip 03:12, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't disagree at all. I've done the change. Hari Seldon 18:54, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Fox Candidates issues

As I expected long ago, the 2006 Presidential campaign is hitting this article. Some vandal is claiming that Felipe Calderón qualifies as a "Fox Candidate" (see section), and is also claiming that he is failing. I would ask that vandal to take into the account the following:

• Fox obstructed Calderon's candidacty, and Calderón was participant in making Fox REAL candidate, Santiago Creel, to fail in his Presidential ambitions. Fox can't have it both ways, either he failed with Creel, or he won with Calderon (won in the PAN primaries)...
• Calderón is not failing. Calderón is currently technically tied, with polls giving insignificant leads to himself, or his main opponent. Please see polls.

Because of the above, Calderón cannot be considered a "Fox Candidate", and has no place in the article, except to explain how he made Creel lose.

Hari Seldon 05:53, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Successor

I've seen vandalism all over the internet now, including Wikipedia. Yesterday (Thursday June 29), the wikipedia sites of Felipe Calderon, Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, and Vicente Fox where vandalized proclaiming AMLO the winner of the election to take place on Sunday July 2.

Since the election is clear to be very close, I suggest that we as wikipedians try to prevent declaring a winner before the IFE does so. The official winner will be announced on Wednesday, so I think that the following conditions of valid editing to proclaim the winner should be met before declaring a winner in wikipedia:

1) If all seeminly losing candidates accept their defeat, then we can proclaim a winner. 2) If the IFE declares a winner on July 2 at night with more than 2% of difference and more than 90% of the ballots counted, then we can proclaim a winner. 3) If none of the above is met, then we should wait until Wednesday until the IFE proclaims an official winner.

What do you think?

Hari Seldon 15:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I still see that somebody has taken the roll as the Electoral Tribunal in Mexico, and ended Vicente Fox Term before the proper date. Felipe Calderon, to the date, has not been recognized as Elected President, and Most of all, Vicente Fox Still is President of Mexico. That Means he remains incumbet as President of MExico. Please. Do not go forward before time. As We respect U.S. Election in 2000.I see also that if moderatos would be doing their jobs in here, I wouldn¿t be changing anyhting.

Heclam 20:10, September 1st. 2006 (CST)

Felipe Calderon Hinojosa is not yet been appointed by the Electoral College Court as the next president of Mexico. Furthermore, Vicente Fox has not yet finished its term as president of mexico. (unsigned)

The proper name of the court is "Electoral Tribunal of the Judicial Power of the Federation", not "Electoral College Court". The reason why this precision is important is so that readers are not confused with the Electoral College system of the United States. In Mexico, the popular vote is the only vote that counts, and the work of the Tribunal is only to qualify weather the election was trustworty or not. If it was trustworthy, then the results that the IFE has given will be validated. If the election was not trustworthy, the court can ask for a re-count in specific voting stations, or a global recount in extreme cases, or a complete annulation of the election and order the election to be re-done. This last extreme case is seen as unlikely. Basically, considering the evidence that has been put forward (including the qualification of International observers from the UN, EU, and USA), it seems that the court will validate the election. However, I agree that anything may still happen, and that it is too early to declare Felipe Calderón a winner in the Wikipedia, even though he virtually is.

I agree. For this reason, I am taking the successor box out that shows Calderon as the successor of Fox. Wikipedia should remain impartial and not give the impression that it is legitimazing preemptively the victory of Calderon. Even though I agree that the chances of Felipe Calderon being declared the winner are very high, we can wait until it is official.

I believe that wiki can be impartial on this issue until the Tribunal declares an official winner.

--Hugo Estrada 18:03, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't disagree with you. However, vandalism is hard to fight

Today, the court has ruled that Felipe Calderón is the President Elect of Mexico [3]. I think that now that the ruling has been issued, this page can show Mr. Calderón as Fox's succesor.

Main portrait

Image:Bush Fox Harper.jpg isn't a good picture - it's hard to tell who is who, and it shows the pyramid better then the subjects. Didn't we have a clear portrait before, with just Fox? That'd be preferable. The pyramid picture certainly deserves a place in the article, but not as the introductory image. -Will Beback 03:25, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

• • I agree. I thought the picture of Fox in front of the Mexican flag was very good. Mikeeilbacher 23:48, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Ive just added a better image off the wikimedia commons but the original image would be better, why was it deleted?--Ruddyell 16:11, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Recent Changes

Today, a user called "Ya ya ya ya ya ya" deleted all major parts of the article that were unsourced. I did my best to salvage the article, as "Ya ya ya ya ya ya" refused to let me restore it to its original quality.

Right now, some pieces of the article make no sense at all, as some paragraphs have been logically cut. However, I've done my best to get as many sources as possible to restore the most important information the article possessed. Since I've followed Fox closely, I know that EVERYTHING that the previous version of the article contained was true and accurate, however, finding the sources is nearly impossible. Please help wikipedia gathering more sources. "Ya ya ya ya ya ya" has threatened to erase any addition to the article that is unsourced.

Presently, the article is a logical and informational disgrace: it contains very few useful information, and it is poorly organized. Your help is needed. We've worked so hard to keep this article current, up to date, and accurate. It is fair to also make it wikipedia-complaint by adding sources. Please help. Hari Seldon 05:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

If you re-add unsourced criticism to this page again your edit will be regarded and treated as vandalism. You have been warned and directed to WP:BLP. Do not try my patience or you will be reported to WP:AN/I. Ya ya ya ya ya ya 21:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey, the version you recently erased was not my latest version! Joseph Solis decided to bring back the older version. Please consider my version with sources.

I agree about the importance of sourcing, but the previous version was created after months work and the participation of many editors. We have agreed in consensus and to the best of our knowledge that such version represented the most accurate description of the President of Mexico. Perhaps you could be a little bit more understanding and allow us to look for sources for that material... Hari Seldon 21:56, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

No, I can't. WP:BLP is quite clear. Unsourced criticism is removed. Discussion on this point is not necessary. I suggest you read the policy. Ya ya ya ya ya ya 21:59, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Here is a source about Vicente Fox racist comment

Reported by CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/14/fox.jackson/

Mexican leader criticized for comment on blacks

CNN) -- The Rev. Jesse Jackson on Saturday criticized Mexican President Vicente Fox's comment that Mexican immigrants to the United States take jobs "that not even blacks want to do."

Jackson called the remark "a spurious comparison" with "ominous racial overtones."

The Mexican president's office issued a statement late Saturday disputing the negative interpretation of his comments, saying Fox has "enormous respect to minorities whatever their racial, ethnic, or religious origin may be."

A Mexican official defended Fox later in the day, saying his description was not meant as an insult.

"The president didn't make a declaration in the racist sense; of course there are those who interpret it in that way," Foreign Relations Secretary Luis Derbez told a reporter in the Mexican state of Jalisco.

According to Derbez, Fox was making the point that "Mexican migrants are making great contributions in the United States and that their role is a positive role."

"They've been able to improve the conditions of life not just for themselves but also for the communities in which they settle and, by the same token, the president made the comment in this context to say that a large quantity of the jobs taken by Mexicans are jobs that in the U.S. society aren't being filled."

"I think that what we have to be very clear about is that the statement made by the president was in no way motivated by racism."

'Most poor Americans are ... white' But Jackson told CNN in a telephone interview that Fox "should not confuse the need for sound legal immigration policy between the two countries, which is important, and the border disputes between the two countries, with a spurious comparison."

"The comparison is diversionary from the issue of a workable immigration policy between the U.S. and Mexico."

Jackson, who said he has never met Fox, planned to call the Mexican president.

Fox made the controversial comment Friday to a group of Texas businessmen meeting in Mexico. He criticized recent steps the United States has taken that the Bush administration said were aimed at curbing illegal immigration.

Fox discussed the role that many Mexican immigrants occupy in the U.S. economy.

Speaking in Spanish, he said, "There is no doubt that Mexicans, filled with dignity, willingness and ability to work, are doing jobs that not even blacks want to do there in the United States."

A State Department spokesman who asked not to be named, read CNN a statement saying, "That level of dialogue doesn't merit comment."

The spokesman also said, "President Bush's commitment to immigration reform that is rational, legal, common sense, decent and compassionate is well-documented."

Jackson said he has worked "for the citizenship rights of immigrants and Mexican Americans" and wants steps taken to avoid making the United States "hostile toward immigration policy."

He said Fox's comment about "blacks" seemed to be about a stereotype. "Most poor Americans are not black, they're white," he added.

But Jackson stopped short of saying Fox should apologize.

"I don't know about that," he said, adding that the comment was "unwitting, unnecessary, and inappropriate."

Bnguyen 08:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Vicente Fox Angers Black Americans With Racist

Vicente Fox Angers Black Americans With Racist

It's been two days since Mexico's President Vicente Fox made the infamous remark about how Mexican (nationals) men and women are doing the work in the United States that "not even blacks want to do…"

From this side of the Rio Grande, the remark is insensitive, not to mention politically incorrect.

Yet, when Fox and his Administration played dumb about the impact of the comment - I have to believe them. I've seen firsthand how blacks are pretty much an invisible segment of their society, even in this 21st Century.

The history of Afro-Mexicans is largely forgotten or relegated to that time in history that many Mexicans still resent when Spaniards came and ravaged their homeland. To help them with their many needs, the Spaniards brought African slaves with them. Thus is the origin of blacks in Mexico.

It's not unusual for Mexican comics to dress in blackface and elicit howls of laughter from audiences.

When our embassy in Mexico City first protested Fox's remarks, el presidente's damage control staff went into high gear "re-explaining" what Fox meant.

Sound familiar?

Anyway, Fox's office now realizes that if they want sympathy from the politicians that can help them the most for their cause on this side of the border, they're going to not only have to watch what they say but stop defending remarks that should be just as offensive to Mexican blacks as U.S. blacks.

On Sunday, Fox's office issued a statement saying that Fox "conveys his utmost respect to all minorities regardless of their racial, ethnic or religious background, and thus, regrets and expresses his disagreement with the interpretations that described (his) statements as racist."

I just hope his respect for all minorities extends throughout his own country, as well as, a gesture to mend fences/borders.

Link http://latinalista.blogspot.com/2005/05/vicente-fox-angers-black-americans.html

Bnguyen 08:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

This article does not have a neutral point of view, at least in the beginning, in which there are comments made by individual not listed, and are therefore presented as facts. Ya ya ya ya ya ya 03:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

To what comments are you referring to? Now, I find it unfair that you add an NPOV tag after you erased months of work on this article. I've been doing my best to recover some of the information that was available, both of Fox accomplisments as of the criticism against him. Why add an NPOV tag after you erased over 70% of the article? Hari Seldon 03:26, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

If you continue to add uncited, POV, OR nonsense to Wikipedia you will be blocked. Consider this your final warning. Ya ya ya ya ya ya 01:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Ever since you started editing this article, I have been contributing only sourced material. Hari Seldon 01:57, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

"Sourced"? 90% of your links were broken. The other 10% did not support the content that you added. . Ya ya ya ya ya ya 02:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The links are not broken, I just tried them out 1 minute ago, they work! I challenge you. Also, the sources DO support the content I added. I read it throughly. Plus, you erased links because they where in spanish! I find this amazing considering that the politican being researched is President of a spanish-speaking country and most of the information concerning him would be in spanish! It is common to source material from different languages when english material is not available. Plus! some of the links you erased because "they are in spanish" where actually in english... Further, it is common in the Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, Felipe Calderon, Mexican general election, 2006, Mexico (etc...) pages and I don't see you being this passionate about them as you are here! In my opinion, you are just here destroying content. This page took months to create, it took me hours to find these sources, read them, digest them, and try to write this as NPOV as possible.

I agree that I am not perfect and I may make mistakes, but talking about them is a better way to solve them than barging into an article you haven't been working on, destroying it, offering no advice on how to improve it, and acting as dictator of wikipedia. If you want to make this article better, I appreciate it. I also want to make this article better. But use of threates and undiscriminated destruction of content is no way of doing it. Hari Seldon 02:13, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

• I have several points

1. First of all most of the earlier links were broken because you sourced primarily to Reuters articles. Reuters is a news aggregate and is never accepted as a long-term source because all Reuters links are temporary.
2. The genuine sources you or other users provided only now support the content because I changed it to accurately reflect what was in those sources. There were numerous unsourced assertions, that you added, in the previous versions, which have never been sourced, properly or improperly.
3. It is acceptable to source content to foreign language sources only when English sources are not easily available. In this case, English sources are easily available. As you said, he is the President of a major nation.
4. Thank you for pointing out those pages. I will be getting to all of those promptly, with the same level of passion.
5. Calling me a dictator of Wikipedia, along with all of your other personal attacks, are violations of WP:NPA. Please read this policy thoroughly. I have not threatened you, I have told you repeatedly to properly source the content you add. If you choose not to follow Wikipedia policy, then you choose to face the consequences. If you think I'm being unfair or violating policy, then get another opinion. Ya ya ya ya ya ya 03:52, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Sourcing foreign-language links are allowed. There is no hard rule saying they are disallowed if English sources are available. Please also assume good faith and stop threatening to get others blocked. I have restored the bit about President Fox's personal life. If there are further content disputes, please get a third opinion or request informal or formal mediation. Cheers, – Chacor 13:24, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Chacor, your attempt to misinterpret policy do not amuse me. If you can not edit responsibly, do not edit at all.

• From Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Sources in languages other than English, "Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, English-language sources should be provided whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to foreign-language sources (assuming equal quality and reliability). For example, do not use a foreign-language newspaper as a source unless there is no equivalent article in an English-language newspaper. However, foreign-language sources are acceptable in terms of verifiability, subject to the same criteria as English-language sources."

All of this content should be able to be sourced to English language sources as Fox is a major public figure. If there are not English language source equivalents to the Spanish sources, then the Spanish-language sources provided are unreliable. Your suggestion to assume good faith is amusing. I cited Wikipedia policy and treated this as a content dispute, even though it is not. Hseldon10 responded by calling me a "dictator of Wikipedia." You suggested, labeling this a "content dispute," that I seek a third opinion. If you had actually read my statement directly above yours, you would have seen I suggested Hseldon try this. He has thus far decided against it... I wonder why? Spamming my talkpage is annoying, but ineffective. Desist. Ya ya ya ya ya ya 18:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

That's a nonsense interpretation, it says no such thing as if its a major public figure only english sources are considered reliable. --pgk 18:48, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The content you're repeatedly removing does not show a living person in a negative light, which the the relevant portion of WP:BLP. In addition, your assertion that a lack of English-language sources about a Mexican leader means that the Spanish-language sources are unreliable is hard to support. I'd expect that Spanish language sources about the leader of a Spanish-speaking country would tend to be more reliable than English-langauge ones. Certainly, if sources in English can be found they should be cited instead of the Spanish citations, but that's not a justifcation for removing content against consensus. Geoffrey Spear 18:59, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I haven't decided against seeking a third party, yet... However, I am trying to find sources to add more content and pass them through you first. For me, consensus is more important than winning... Finally, I find it interesting that I am not alone in criticising your destruction of this article. As I said, this was the work of a lot of editors who had reached consensus on this content. I believe that if our concern is the quality of the article, contributing to discussion and consensus is more important than destruction of content without talking first. Hari Seldon 19:20, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Yyyyy is displaying the traits very often found in people who violate WP:OWN. Mediation probably won't be a good idea; get an WP:RFC. – Chacor 01:35, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

An excellent idea. Perhaps I'll start one on your spamming of my talkpage and encouraging personal attacks. I think that's pretty solid ground for desysopping. "Cheers", Ya ya ya ya ya ya 02:13, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, I am not a sysop. Secondly, this diff made in five edits can hardly be considered spamming. An RFC will most definitely be welcomed here. – Chacor 02:15, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Ya ya ya ya ya ya has been indefinitely blocked. Where do we go from here? – Chacor 04:48, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Reverted

I've reverted this article to its original state. The one it had before Ya ya ya ya ya ya destroyed months of work by multiple editors. I will be requesting mediation on this matter.

User Ya ya ya ya ya ya, please refrain from vandalizing this article any further until we have resolved our differences. If your interest is in bettering this article, I am sure we will be able to sort all of this out. Hari Seldon 07:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• Hi, I'm here from WP:3O and I'd like to help break the deadlock on this article and maybe help us all come to a reasonable conclusion. It looks like this is a fairly complex content dispute - could you all help me out by summarizing briefly the terms of the dispute - what is being removed, what each "side"'s position is? Also, as a note: it's very unhelpful for anyone to characterize a good faith edit as vandalism. Even if it is vandalism, calling it that can needlessly inflame tempers. So, it would be helpful if we can stick strictly to content, not to behavior. Anyway, I'd really like to help out; a brief summary, maybe with a few helpful diffs to point me in the right direction, will help shed some light on the matter and maybe lead everyone to a reappraisal of their own positions. Captainktainer * Talk 11:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)