Jump to content

Talk:David Hackworth: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous edit
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
m Removed deprecated parameters in {{Talk header}} that are now handled automatically (Task 30)
 
(36 intermediate revisions by 22 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{Skip to talk}}
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|
{{Talk header|search=yes}}
{{WikiProject Vietnam|class=Start|importance=}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|living=no|listas=Hackworth, David|1=
{{WPMILHIST |class=Start |US-task-force=yes|Biography=yes|B1=n|B2=y|B3=y|B4=y|B5=y}}
{{WikiProject Vietnam|importance=}}
{{WPBiography |living=no |class=Start |priority=Low |military-work-group=yes|listas=Hackworth, David}}
{{WikiProject Military history|class=B|US-task-force=yes|Biography=yes|B1=n|B2=y|B3=y|B4=y|B5=y}}
{{WikiProject Biography|class=Start |military-priority=Low |military-work-group=yes}}
{{WikiProject Journalism}}
{{WikiProject Journalism}}
{{WikiProject Maritime Trades |class= |importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Transport|maritime=yes|maritime-importance=mid|importance=}}
}}
{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn
|target=Talk:David Hackworth/Archive index
|mask=Talk:David Hackworth/Archive <#>
|leading_zeros=0
|indexhere=yes}}
{{User:MiszaBot/config
|archiveheader = {{aan}}
|maxarchivesize = 125K
|counter = 1
|minthreadsleft = 5
|algo = old(30d)
|archive = Talk:David Hackworth/Archive %(counter)d
}}
}}

<!-- NEW COMMENTS SHOULD BE ADDED AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS PAGE, NOT AT THE TOP -->


==Untitled==
This article has a few grammar problems and should be cleaned up --[[User:Prospero|Prospero]] 06:06, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What more can be said about this patriotic American? [[User:Stevertigo|Stevertigo]]

: Well, a list of medals awarded would be nice. When they were awarded would be cool. [[User:Funkyj|Funkyj]]

I would fix the grammar mistakes, but I can't. The things locked. --[[User:Kross|Kross]] 04:07, May 6, 2005 (UTC)

==Clean-up==

This article is in need of a serious clean-up, with its NPOV statements, poor grammar, bad sentence structure. (E.g., "most patriotic American".) [[User:Jkp1187|Jkp1187]] 16:06, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Even in its attempt to lionize Hackworth, the text screws up. Hackworth himself would likely have disputed that he was "all infantry". (a) he was an airmobile commander in Vietnam, therefore possibly a model for Kilgore in the mind's eye of the scriptwriter, and (b) he was an airborne commander, not straight-leg infantry.
Correction!
Hack was a Major in Battalion command with the 101st Airborne Divisions, Republic Of South Vietnam 1965/66
Lt Col in Battalion command in the 9th "Infantry" Division, Republic of South Vietnam. 1969

None of his positions regarding the first Iraq war, in which in ''Newsweek'' he gaudily predicted 10,000 American dead, is even touched upon.--Buckboard 19:40, 23 August 2007 (UTC) <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Buckboard|Buckboard]] ([[User talk:Buckboard|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Buckboard|contribs]]){{#if:{{{2|}}}|&#32;{{{2}}}}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> (cute addition, especially since I signed the comment using the time stamp button)

This article continues to need significant cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. Aside from its POV statements, it suffers from the repeated use of jargon-ish, chatty "military" language where more appropriate terms would be more appropriate. For example, why is GEN Marshall referred to as "'SLAM' Marshall" rather than simply "GEN Marshall"? The article is not about GEN Marshall, so why is his nickname relevant? Some of the statements simply make little sense, e.g. stating that COL Hackworth took over a unit "made up largely of conscripts" and "transformed it into the counterinsurgent "Hardcore" Battalion (Recondo)". Considering that the U.S. Army in Vietnam was a draftee army, the original description as "conscripts" doesn't differentiate COL Hackworth's unit from any other in the Army. And putting together a new name from some tough-guy buzzwords like "counterinsurgent Hardcore Battalion (Recondo)" doesn't provide any evidence of increased military effectiveness. It's not even clear whose name this is -- the Army's, COL Hackworth's, or the author's.[[Special:Contributions/198.151.13.8|198.151.13.8]] ([[User talk:198.151.13.8|talk]]) 19:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
::Just less than 25% of the 2,594,000 American military personnel who served within South Vietnam's borders were draftees. The U.S. Army in Vietnam was not a draftee army, it was a volunteer army (by comparison 66% of WWII American military personnel were draftees). I assume the unit "made up largely of conscripts" was just that. Some 3,403,100 Americans served in the Southeast Asia theater of operations overall. [[Special:Contributions/71.154.158.245|71.154.158.245]] ([[User talk:71.154.158.245|talk]]) 03:21, 4 August 2010 (UTC)Sgt. Rock

==Chronological Mistake==

I agree that the article needs a clean-up for the reasons given above. It also contains this statement that is clearly in error:

''Hackworth was eventually assigned to Germany in the '''1960s''' as an Infantry company commander under Colonel Glover S. Johns, and learned a great deal of the skills that were needed to be an effective officer from this old warhorse. He was involved in a number of fire drills around the '''Berlin Blockade''', and his exploits at the time were rivaled only by the loyalty of his troops and the growth in his leadership skills and style that he enjoyed. His reflections on military history are there for all to read in his autobiography "About Face."''

The Berlin Blockade lasted from 24 June 1948 to 11 May 1949 - so Hackworth could not have been ''involved'' in it. The author probably meant the building of the Berlin Wall, which began on 13 August 1961.

[[User:Textor|Textor]] 06:56, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

== Added the Medals ==

I think the page was locked because it was linked to from the "Deaths" section on the mainpage.
--[[User:Jpbrenna|Jpbrenna]] 01:24, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm curious how his uniform jacket would look with all his authorized decorations (you know, the uniform that the Army says is equivalent to a business suit) --- it would probably go practically over his shoulder [[User:Eddieuny|Eddieuny]] 17:43, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

He only wore the important ones, and since most of those were with multiple clusters, the ribbons did not take up that much room on his chest. They did not even look particularly impressive until you got close enough to see what they actually were.

You're both talking about the Class A uniform. I didn't know you had the option to NOT wear decorations. In full dress uniform where you where the actual medals he would have been quite a sight. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.171.176.237|69.171.176.237]] ([[User talk:69.171.176.237|talk]]) 09:36, 8 July 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== What about Tiger Force? ==

Te article dosnt even mention it!--[[User:Smoth 007|James Bond]] 07:27, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

He served with the Wolfhounds--not the Tiger Force. Nor did he serve in the Rangers, as often quoted. And according to his Official Service record (and people who knew him), he joined the Army at age 19, not 15.

He was a Ranger. The 27th Regiment (Wolfhounds) formed a Ranger Platoon and Hackworth was the Platoon leader. He went to a school of some sort were he was awarded the Ranger tab (by his Regimental commander?) but never went to Ranger School at Ft. Benning. This is what lead to the Ranger tab contrversey.

:According to the [[Tiger Force]] wikipage, he started it as the Bn. commander of the 1st Battalion (Airborne), 327th Infantry Regiment, 1st Brigade (Separate), 101st Airborne Division. So while he may have been in the Wolfhounds, he was also connected to the Tiger Force in some way. Maybe we can delete this entry? Or change it to discuss exactly what his role in the Tiger force was, anyhow. [[User:Rhetth|Rhetth]] 18:51, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

==Prose copyedit==
I think that this article might do with being toned down a little. All in all it's a good read but it is overly effusive. Describing him as "''... Americas' finest patriot of his generation''" is a bit too much for an encyclopedia article. Phrase things a little more neutrally, after all the man's achievements speak for themselves.

[[User:Xdamr|<span style="font-family: Times"><span style="font-size:18px">X</span><span style="font-size:14px">damr</span></span>]]<sup>[[User_Talk:Xdamr|talk]]</sup> 22:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

== NPOV ==

i removed the sentence: ''He was Americas' finest patriot of his generation.'' in the "interwar service" chapter. --[[User:80.63.213.182|80.63.213.182]] 22:07, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

=="Newsweek fired Hackworth"==

I am going to remove this phrase until someone who has knowledge of this incident can clarify a few things:

1.) Was it firing for cause or a layoff(i.e., simple failure to renew a contract.)

2.) If firing for cause, reason for the dismissal. Was it due to misconduct (or allegations thereof) in his investigation of the Navy officer mentioned? Or were there other issues?

2.) Sources for the above.

== promotion dates ==

It would be nice if anyone could provide promotion dates. I have seen it claimed that he was the youngest O3 and the youngest O6; promotion dates would seem appropriate to help evaluation such claims. ~~

== Moved from top of talk page ==
This article omits some less attractive details of Hack's past, presumably removed by his fans or wife. Particularly important: Hack had a brothel of "safe" women for his troops in vietnam. Controversial, but innovative and indicative of his realism. - (This [[WP:SIG|unsigned]] comment left by {{user|75.52.240.179}} 01:34, 19 June 2007)

Normally I would remove an unsourced comment like this. However, this information appears in the autobiographical book ''About Face''. That being the case, I doubt the information is being suppressed. It's more likely that it's not controversial, since Hackworth made no effort to hide it. If you have a reliable source showing it's controversial, then bring it. Otherwise, please don't try to sensationalize the article. [[User:MoodyGroove|MoodyGroove]] 02:17, 19 June 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

Here is another unsourced comment. I interviewed Hack personally around 1981 for an Australian institute of technology's student newspaper. He told me that he had been on LBJ's staff, and heard him say of North Vietnam "Let's nuke the bastards. I don't want to be the first American president to lose a war", and that was when he became opposed to nuclear weapons. [[User:John Wilkins|John Wilkins]] ([[User talk:John Wilkins|talk]]) 09:13, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

:Was there a reason you didn't include that in the article? [[User:MoodyGroove|MoodyGroove]] ([[User talk:MoodyGroove|talk]]) 18:41, 17 November 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

:: Unsourced [[User:John Wilkins|John Wilkins]] ([[User talk:John Wilkins|talk]]) 13:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

::: Sorry, I meant, was there a reason you didn't include it the article you wrote for AIT (hence we would have a source)? Just curious. [[User:MoodyGroove|MoodyGroove]] ([[User talk:MoodyGroove|talk]]) 16:06, 22 November 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

== Korea chronology ==

Doesn't he describe his battlefield commission as occurring before the Wolfhound Raiders were formed? [[User:Harvard yarrd|Harvard yarrd]]<br />

: I revised & extended the relevant section of article. [[User:Harvard yarrd|Harvard yarrd]]

== "Bird Colonel" ? ==

This is a minor detail, but here goes:<br />
Under the Vietnam service paragraph, it states Hackworth was promoted to "Full Colonel (also known as Bird Colonel)" or some such...I see no reason for the "Bird Colonel" remark. There is Lieutenant Colonel and then Colonel. Sometimes the term "full bird colonel" is indeed used in casual talk just to differentiate between the two, but the Colonel rank is not "known as Bird Colonel"...In that paragraph, the rank distinction (his promotion) is clear without the slang. No need to mislead non-military readers on the terminology...[[User:Engr105th|Engr105th]] 03:01, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

: I concur, and I just changed the article accordingly. [[User:Harvard yarrd|Harvard yarrd]]


== "No references" ? ==
== "No references" ? ==
Line 118: Line 27:




== "Col Kurtz" ? ==
== What is this? ==

Removed:
<blockquote>It's said that the role of [[Colonel Kurtz]] is a combination of three Vietnam War officers: Colonel [[Charles Beckwith]], USA (Ret), Lt. General [[Harold Moore]], USA (Ret)(See WE WERE SOLDIERS ONCE, AND YOUNG), and Colonel David H. Hackworth, USA (Ret). Some have written that the role of Lt. Col. Kilgore in "[[Apocalypse Now]]" was based upon David Hackworth; perhaps, but Hack was never an "Air Cav" officer - he was all infantry. </blockquote>

No sourcing, begs the questions: 'It's said'- by whom? 'Some have written...' Who?
Dubious claims given the fact that Apocalypse Now! was based on [[Joseph Conrad]]'s [[novella]] ''[[Heart of Darkness]]'' from 1899, predating all 3 soldiers. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/74.135.236.246|74.135.236.246]] ([[User talk:74.135.236.246|talk]]) 04:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

"Hackworth, through his Newsweek articles, questioned Boorda's wearing of potentially unauthorized V ( for valor) devices on his Navy Achievement Medal and Navy Commendation Medal, generating much controversy." Hackworth had not written in Newsweek on the subject of Admiral Boorda's medals prior to the scheduled interview. Hackworth had intended to surprise Boorda on this subject, having not disclosed the subject of the interview. On the day of the scheduled interview, Hackworth's office reported that he had missed his flight connection in Salt Lake City and would not make the interview. Instead the Newsweek bureau chief and defense correspondent were to replace him, and they disclosed the subject of the interview. This was reported to Admiral Boorda, who noted that he'd removed the combat distinguising devices from the ribbons about a year earlier. Then, he went home and committed suicide. Later that day, I received a call from former chief of naval operations, Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, who insisted that, as commander of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam, had presented the medal -- with Combat 'V' -- to Boorda during the Vietnam War. Hackworth did not write for Newsweek again. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Mitch19|Mitch19]] ([[User talk:Mitch19|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Mitch19|contribs]]) 21:33, 20 September 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Quote Attribution==

Hackworth is cited in this article as saying, ""Sweat in training saves blood on the battlefield." I'm quite certain that quote originated with Erwin Rommel, who repeatedly states "Sweat saves blood" in his infantry manual which predates Hackworth. It is a certainty that Hackworth was familiar with Rommel's doctrines. [[Special:Contributions/96.24.50.135|96.24.50.135]] ([[User talk:96.24.50.135|talk]]) 03:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

==Proposal for exapnsion==


"and his exploits at the time were rivaled only by the loyalty of his troops and the growth in his leadership skills and style."
If no one objects I think it is worth noting in the article two things. Firstly he stated in About Face he faced indifference from Slam about writing the Vietnam Primer but eventually persuaded him. Also, after he appeared on Issues and Answers he essentially went on the lam hiding from army agents intent on finding him to prevent his scheduled discharge. This was done to allow the army time to investigate him (i.e. dig the dirt) for things such as a illeagal arms and drug trafficking. To gather eveidence his bank details were accessed without a warrant and phones were tapped in motels he stayed at. No warrants were ever obtained for these (had any i'm sure it would have come out by now and he would have been discredited). Westmoreland also took the time to make sure the letter all leaving officers (above a certain rank??) recieved signed by him was not given to hack. This info should be included as it gives info on the obsticals he faced in improving the war effort before he left and the behaviour he faced in speaking out.


What the heck is this - it's supposed to be a biographical statement?
if no objects I will add this info. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/194.197.79.18|194.197.79.18]] ([[User talk:194.197.79.18|talk]]) 06:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
I can't believe that the person who wrote this ever spent a day in military service. This is terrible writing; overwrought crap. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/118.106.217.125|118.106.217.125]] ([[User talk:118.106.217.125|talk]]) 09:41, 13 February 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


== Silver Star? ==
==Secretary of the Navy Cleared Boorda==
of wrongdoing. Why isn't this mentioned? Hackworth should burn in hell. [[Special:Contributions/155.84.57.253|155.84.57.253]] ([[User talk:155.84.57.253|talk]]) 19:04, 10 November 2008 (UTC)


He has a Silver Star with a Silver Star?
:It should be mentioned. Essentially Boorda and Hakckworth were in the same position. They were both wearing medals that had been awarded but were not awarded properly. Both did not deserve to wear the medels but both were doing so unwittingly. The difference is that Hackworth was the hypocrite -- he attacked Boorda for something he himself turned out to be guilty of as well. The Hatchet job on Boorda was the result of the brass being angry at Boordas strong actions after tailhook. Boorda was trying to clean up a mess created by others and was hung out to dry.15:59, 4 December 2008 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Carvon|Carvon]] ([[User talk:Carvon|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Carvon|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


This is probably utterly self-explanatory for military award buffs, but unintelligible for normal people. How can he have a two Silver Stars, if oak leafs are already factored in? Why does Wikipedia differ from the source?
:: uh, a Ranger tab is not a medal. It's a little patch thing that goes on the shoulder. Says "Ranger" on it.


Please provide a better explanation. ---- [[Special:Contributions/79.223.3.206|79.223.3.206]] ([[User talk:79.223.3.206|talk]]) 16:22, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
::Only the Secretary of the Navy, not Zumwalt, can authorize the medals Boorda wore. So this whole Zumwalt stepping forward thing lacks merit. It also lacks sources. When a service member pins on a medal, he or she does so with orders in hand. Copies of these orders also go into the service member's personnel file - a file which gets reviewed each time the individual goes up for promotion. Boorda did not have such orders, and he had numerous opportunities to find and correct his mistake. [[User:Rklawton|Rklawton]] ([[User talk:Rklawton|talk]]) 22:06, 14 February 2010 (UTC)


:Hackworth had 10 Silver Stars. The ribbon is for one award, the silver oak leaf denotes five more, and the three bronze oak leaves make it a total of nine. A ribbon has room for only four oak leaf clusters. The only way to make the math work for 10 awards of the same medal is to add a second ribbon to signify it. If he'd had 11 Silver Stars, one ribbon with two silver oak leaves would have worked. But with 10, the only way to display it is with two ribbons, based on how may oak leaves can fit on a ribbon.
:: yeah, because the Secretary of the Navy has nothing better to do. Zumwalt, as Boorda's CO, awarded the medal(s). That being said, it sucks that he killed himself (we don't even know the actual motivation).


:[[User:Billmckern|Billmckern]] ([[User talk:Billmckern|talk]]) 11:21, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
== Atrocities ==
There is an editor who wishes to associate Hackworth with atrocities committed by Tiger Force. Since these atrocities occurred after he left the unit, we must be careful not to word these facts ambiguously. A prior version was written so ambiguously that an uninformed reader might think Hackworth could have been responsible. [[User:Rklawton|Rklawton]] ([[User talk:Rklawton|talk]]) 20:34, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


== How Many Air Medals? ==
== Peacock ==


In 2015 an IP editor added the peacock tag to the article, see this [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=David_Hackworth&diff=671663400&oldid=671405806 diff]. There does not appear to be any discussion regarding it. Perhaps it is time that the tag be removed?--[[User:RightCowLeftCoast|RightCowLeftCoast]] ([[User talk:RightCowLeftCoast|talk]]) 05:16, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
The Wiki article states that Col. Hackworth received either 33 or 34 Air Medals, yet on his tombstone engraved in white marble it says that he received 48 Air Medals. How many did he receive? Also, I was in the military during the Vietnam War and all colonels, whether Lt. Colonel or Colonel, are referred to as "Colonel" (except when written), so describing someone as a "full bird" colonel is necessary to clarify his actual rank. Only about 1% make full bird colonel, so it's an important distinction.**** Also, the American military in Vietnam was not a "conscript" army--only 25% were draftees! Compare this to WWII, where 66% of the American military were draftees (reference: "Eyewitness Vietnam", Gilmore & Giangreco, Sterling Publishing, New York, 2006, pg. 10). [[Special:Contributions/63.207.238.250|63.207.238.250]] ([[User talk:63.207.238.250|talk]]) 02:46, 9 June 2010 (UTC)Sgt. Rock
The Silver Star on the Silver Star is for 5 Silver Stars; he has a total of Ten Silver Stars!
Maj (R) JD Ritter, Vietnam 67-68, Tet Suvivor <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2601:3C7:8300:83A0:B01A:F311:457C:E261|2601:3C7:8300:83A0:B01A:F311:457C:E261]] ([[User talk:2601:3C7:8300:83A0:B01A:F311:457C:E261#top|talk]]) 00:04, 26 September 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Latest revision as of 17:27, 15 July 2024

"No references" ?

[edit]

The article has a tag: "This article does not cite any references or sources." Yet, reading the article, there are references. Much of the bio material is probably pulled from his book About Face -- at least, it agrees with it. Harvard yarrd


What is this?

[edit]
"and his exploits at the time were rivaled only by the loyalty of his troops and the growth in his leadership skills and style."

What the heck is this - it's supposed to be a biographical statement? I can't believe that the person who wrote this ever spent a day in military service. This is terrible writing; overwrought crap. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.106.217.125 (talk) 09:41, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Silver Star?

[edit]

He has a Silver Star with a Silver Star?

This is probably utterly self-explanatory for military award buffs, but unintelligible for normal people. How can he have a two Silver Stars, if oak leafs are already factored in? Why does Wikipedia differ from the source?

Please provide a better explanation. ---- 79.223.3.206 (talk) 16:22, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hackworth had 10 Silver Stars. The ribbon is for one award, the silver oak leaf denotes five more, and the three bronze oak leaves make it a total of nine. A ribbon has room for only four oak leaf clusters. The only way to make the math work for 10 awards of the same medal is to add a second ribbon to signify it. If he'd had 11 Silver Stars, one ribbon with two silver oak leaves would have worked. But with 10, the only way to display it is with two ribbons, based on how may oak leaves can fit on a ribbon.
Billmckern (talk) 11:21, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Peacock

[edit]

In 2015 an IP editor added the peacock tag to the article, see this diff. There does not appear to be any discussion regarding it. Perhaps it is time that the tag be removed?--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:16, 16 March 2018 (UTC) The Silver Star on the Silver Star is for 5 Silver Stars; he has a total of Ten Silver Stars! Maj (R) JD Ritter, Vietnam 67-68, Tet Suvivor — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:3C7:8300:83A0:B01A:F311:457C:E261 (talk) 00:04, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:David_Hackworth&oldid=1234692371"
pFad - Phonifier reborn

Pfad - The Proxy pFad of © 2024 Garber Painting. All rights reserved.

Note: This service is not intended for secure transactions such as banking, social media, email, or purchasing. Use at your own risk. We assume no liability whatsoever for broken pages.


Alternative Proxies:

Alternative Proxy

pFad Proxy

pFad v3 Proxy

pFad v4 Proxy