Talk:Gun control

DR

I have opened a DR on the Nazi issue. Everyone who cares is included, and should be notified shortly by the DR bot. Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Gun_Control Gaijin42 (talk) 16:35, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I did not include you as an involved party, so you won't be notified, but certainly have no objection to you adding yourself. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:49, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I think one of my comments is missing above.--Amadscientist (talk) 18:37, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I will note that this (only) relates to one (#4) of the 5 questions. North8000 (talk) 16:46, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

It may be the main concern though. If this helps the situation I'm all for it.--Amadscientist (talk) 16:48, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the dispute over if the content should be included is mostly irrelevant to what the overall article title/location is. Wherever the primary article is that is discussing gun control, under whatever name, would gain "ownership" of this dispute. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:49, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I should probably mention that there is an open AN/I over the dispute (or part of it at any rate) and that DR/N declines fillings when there is another open DR venue/discussion.--Amadscientist (talk) 16:52, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

The question posed at the AN is on merging, not on what content belongs in any given article (although certainly the discussion has veered into that direction, it is not the formal point of the AN) Gaijin42 (talk) 16:54, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

When an article has a dispute ongoing at AN or AN/I, the case is always declined until the AN or AN filing closes. Perhaps if you drop a line to the DR/N talk page explaining that you feel an exception should be made here and for what reasons it may be allowed. If that AN/I filling looks close to closing perhaps they will just allow it to stand with the hope that the AN/I case will be resolved before the DR/N case is formally opened.--Amadscientist (talk) 16:59, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

The AN is the wrong venue and a dead end, as the admins there are starting to point out. North8000 (talk) 18:31, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

The only problem with that is, as the DR/N volunteer mentioned, the AN filing is only two days old and does not appear to have a formed consensus as yet (even if it looks like it is moving in a certain direction). It seems one volunteer (transportationman) may be inclined to allow the filling while another (Guy Macon) feels the AN filing is a concern for opening the DR case. I'll await their decision before adding any opening myself.--Amadscientist (talk) 19:59, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

This is being discussed at Wikipedia talk:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Gun Control DR/N, and everyone in invited to comment there, but only on the narrow question of delaying a DRN filing while there is an ongoing AN discussion, not about gun control or content forking.

I am hoping that this does eventually end up at DRN, and I plan on asking if anyone -- DRN volunteer or disputant -- objects to me volunteering to try to resolve this. I will speak of this a bit more on the DRN talk page, and invite comments there. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:53, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Article protected

I've full-protected the article for two weeks, to be going on with, because of the edit-warring. I'll be happy to restore the usual semiprotection as soon as current issues have been resolved. By resolved I don't mean I expect miracles; merely that people show some willingness to stop reverting. Bishonen | talk 18:15, 25 July 2013 (UTC).

Good call.--Amadscientist (talk) 18:30, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Good call but bad timing. 6 minutes after the controversial new version was warred back in. North8000 (talk) 18:32, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

As opposed to the controversial old version? AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:34, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

There are exactly two editors defending the crazy over-representation of Stephen Halbrook's theory. The fact that two editors, both well known for their antagonistic relationship with NPOV policy, object to an edit hardly makes it controversial. — goethean 18:48, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Heck, if that was all we were discussing, this mess would have been resolved already. BTW, I hope I'm not considered one of the two, I think I've demonstrated that. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 18:56, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

It isn't all of it, but it is a clear example of what the problem is - the attempts of contributors to spin Wikipedia content to suit the aims of the more paranoid sections of the US gun lobby. Frankly, it never ceases to amaze me just how easy it is to convince sections of the US right wing populace that the sky is about to fall in (probably complete with black helicopters) if the 'liberals' are ever allowed to do anything beyond knitting mittens for kittens and making carrot soup for homeless caribou... AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:06, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

That the section currently (or just recently) only discussed halbrook's theory is non sequitor. The argument is made by congressmen, judges, and numerous reliable sources. However, any attempt to flesh out the section to balance it further was met with immediate reversion, so it sits where it was. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:59, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Personally, I'm of the opinion that neither congressmen nor judges are to be relied on for anything but whatever opinion it suits them to claim to hold at the time... AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:12, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

OMG!!!!! Andy and I completely agree on this point! Let the mending of fences and peace making begin... :) --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 21:07, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Me too. For me that's twice I've agreed with Andy in one day. OMG.  :-) North8000 (talk) 21:14, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't disagree, but those opinions are eminently notable, and have a huge effect on what happens with the law. Its absolutely ok to disagree with the conclusions and opinions these guys have. But saying that their highly notable opinion can't be stated is where we really part ways.

Some background into the judge/legislator I mention - The judge in question gave a dissent in Silveria, where the majority opinion was resoundingly overturned by Heller, and had he had one more vote, prior to heller, Silveria would have been controlling for the entire circuit. During the GCA68 debate, the Nazi thing came up extensively regarding registration requirements, and those portions of the bill were dropped. (In addition to the Nazi-jew thing, one other argument was made that France had a completely benign registration program, with no intent to confiscate. Then The nazis came in and used those records to confiscate during the occupation - One of the arguments made by proponents of the Nazi-meme is that "Those advocating for registration today could be completely honest that they are merely trying to prevent crime, and have no confiscatory intent.. but once the records exist, they can be used later by someone who does". As you rightly state, legislators and judges change their mind quite freely when it suits them. eg the registrations such as in CA which have been irrefutably retroactively used for confiscation when the law changes)

Liberals would have a lot more leg to stand on regarding "paranoia" if every time they said "we don't want to take your guns" they didn't have someone like Feinstein propose taking people's guns. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:25, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

So your proposal to deal with the overemphasis in the article on US gun control issues is to add even more of it? Interesting... AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:39, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Certainly enough to correctly state what the POV is. However, if there is US centric systematic bias in the wiki, or this article (which I don't disagree with) the answer is to include the content to balance it, not censor it. But regarding the localized bias - The US is the only major country actively debating the topic (afaik) Therefore, any debate content is going to by definition be US centric. Other countries are mostly status quo either with full control, or no control. (Although, with the definition of gun control that some seem to want here, the UK and others are engaging in some debate, specifically regarding self defense and castle changes) Gaijin42 (talk) 19:46, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

'Castle changes'? AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:15, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Castle law/Stand your ground/other self defense changes proposed by Tories (some enacted), in the wake of a few self defense convictions (Tony_Martin_(farmer) in particular, and more recently a couple whos case caused several politicians to announce intended changes [1] [2] [3] [4] Gaijin42 (talk) 21:28, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

However, if there is US centric systematic bias in the wiki, or this article (which I don't disagree with) the answer is to include the content to balance it, not censor it.

A pretty stupid statement. You pump up your preferred section of the article completely out of proportion, elaborating on your preferred extreme minority position, and then sit back and say "Okay, balance out the article, but if you remove any of my preferred material, its CENSORSHIP!" Disingenuous is what it is. — goethean 21:17, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

And note that Gaijin42 seems to be arguing that other countries don't have debates over firearms regulation anyway, so there can't be any balancing material. Heads he wins, tails we loose... AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:22, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm with Gaijin42 on that point. The US is far ahead of the rest of the world in having massive ongoing debate about gun control. It's virtually a non-issue elsewhere. This article should probably be renamed (and slightly modified) to be just about the US. On the other hand, I congratulate Andy for his patience, consistency and perseverance here. And please don't anyone think that it's just the frequent contributors here who have thoughts on this article. Several others of us are watching, waiting really, to see if things calm down enough for true, rational discussion. HiLo48 (talk) 21:55, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Well this postulated silent majority of lurkers needs to speak up if they are going to be heard. Hopefully they don't endorse turning the article into an NRA blowhorn, as our two outspoken friends here do. — goethean 23:24, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

True rational discussion istaking place Hilo48, welcome to the discussion.--Amadscientist (talk) 23:29, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• Well, you know how it is. "There are no reports of a sysop ever having protected the right version." Goethean's revert turned up prominently near the top of my watchlist, with an "undid revision" edit summary, so I took a look. Mind you, I must have worked pretty fast, for me. I would have thought it usually takes me at least 8 minutes to even perform a protection. Getting better with that! :-) Bishonen | talk 19:19, 25 July 2013 (UTC).

The night Raleigh died

Found this at Thompson submachine gun, where it got deleted, & it seemed like saving it might be worthwhile.

"For example, North Carolina restricts fully automatic weapons except for soldiers, law enforcement, and merchants with a permit who need them to defend their business."

Anybody want to try & work it in? TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 14:13, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

"Homicide" / fluid terms

While the common meaning of homicide is murder of one human by another the technical one is the killing of one human by another. Folks who want to make the homicide figures look higher can use the latter definition, which includes, for example shooting of people by the police or military, or in self defense. For example, if someone kills someone in self defense using a gun, this is counted by some of them as a "homicide" and of course "due" to the presence of the gun. Additions regarding studies should explore and clarify exactly what the study used as a definition of a "homicide".

(BTW, another common one is counting suicides as "use of a gun against a family member" because technically a person is a family member of themselves.) North8000 (talk) 20:36, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

And please don't forget that this is the global article. It's not just about the USA. It covers the other 95% of the world's population as well. You will find it very difficult to get precise definitions for the whole world. HiLo48 (talk) 21:18, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

I guess what I meant is that these two are cases where there is available a technical meaning which is very different than the common meaning and that some utilize that disparity. North8000 (talk) 21:46, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh yeah. It's possible to find statistics that will support almost any view. HiLo48 (talk) 22:17, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Since there do not appear to be any stats in the article, the discussion appears to be moot. However, police typically only report figures for cases they treat as criminal homicide, which would include cases such as George Zimmerman who was found not guilty based on self-defense. In 2007 U.S. police killed 391 people and citizens killed 254 people in self-defense.[5] It is not a major part of the approx 10,000 gun homicides per year and does not explain why for example the U.S. gun homicide rate is five times more than Canada, which itself has a relatively high gun homicide rate among industrialized countries. TFD (talk) 01:01, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

The FBI includes both sets in their numbers (though they are relatively small as you state). Suicides are also included, and that however is a very large number. That still does leave the 10k number. In comparing to Canada, I am somewhat surprised the delta is not higher (its only 5x) considering how much lower Canada's gun ownership is. "—In 2010, 31,672 persons died from firearm injuries in the United States (Tables 18 and 19), accounting for 17.5 percent of all injury deaths in that year. The two major component causes of all firearm injury deaths in 2010 were suicide (61.2 percent) and homicide (35.0 percent). The age-adjusted death rate from firearm injuries (all intents) was 10.1 in 2010, unchanged from the rate in 2009. The age-adjusted death rate for firearm suicide increased 3.4 percent in 2010 from 2009, whereas the death rate for firearm homicide decreased 5.3 percent." http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_04.pdf Gaijin42 (talk) 01:14, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Injuries from lawn mowers are also higher in countries where more people own lawn mowers.North8000 (talk) 01:23, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Canada's gun ownership rate is 30.8 guns per hundred people compared with 88.8 in the U.S.[6] But a number of those homicides are gang-related and they are able to buy guns smuggled from the U.S. TFD (talk) 01:47, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

The USA also has about 160,000 deaths per year from doctor errors. Much more than countries that have few or no doctors. More doctors = more deaths from doctor errors.  :-) North8000 (talk) 02:20, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

It could be that high levels of gun homicides are perfectly acceptable. If you find a source that says that is a significant view, then we can add it. But it is not a conclusion we can make among ourselves and add to the article. TFD (talk) 03:13, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

North - neither lawn mowers nor doctors are the subject of this article. Please drop that nonsense. HiLo48 (talk) 07:11, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I think that it was germane to the tangent that this thread has gone off on.  :-) :-) The thread was really about just clarity of terms, especially when a "technically true" definition is available which conflicts with the common meaning of the term. Sincerely, North8000 (talk)

North8000, this talk page is for discussions of the article, not to chat about whatever you want. You've made several comments have don't appear to have any relation to improving the article. Please keep your comments on topic, or your comments may be removed. — goethean 14:30, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Hilo, you misunderstand North's point. He is using an "analogy", not trying to make the article about lawn mowers or hospitals . For examples Suicides are the majority of US firearms deaths. Firearms are one method of suicide and the data suggests that a total absence of firearms doesn't change the rate of suicide death much, but rather the method of suicides. The real suicide number relevant and attributable to firearms in the US is between 200 to 1,200 (the studies show an elevation of between 1 and 6%.). Slightly less important but also notable are say firearms accidents. Hunting is an outdoor sport with health benefits like bike riding, kayaking etc. Yet owning a bike or Kayak when counting individuals against general pop, or jurisdictions with higher ownership rates, creates an elevated early death risk from those activities. Thirdly there is very god evidence that when it comes to gun murder the vast majority (80 to 90%) of victims are criminals. If people are engaging in a very high risk lifestyle (gang membership, meth production, part time mugger, armed robber, etc). In other words there is a different set of rational number than the aggregates thrown out there. They would be, say 600 suicides that occur because of guns; and 1,500 to 3,000 murders of non criminals.13:40, 24 September 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.48.227.93 (talk)

108.48.227.93, how does this relate to improving the article? — goethean 14:30, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

It indicates that "homicide = bad" is something that should not be implied, even though it would be WP:SYNTHESIS to actually use that in the article in regard the homicide statistics. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:11, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

IP, those are anti-gun control arguments which may or may not belong in the article, but we need to take arguments from sources, not make them ourselves. See "No original research". Research btw shows that there is a link between gun ownership and suicide.[7] TFD (talk) 16:27, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Gun Control Statistics should be presented that show that Violence in America has decreased significantly over time while many other countries have simply hit a plateau.

```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dab1994 (talk • contribs) 07:29, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Progress?

Can we finally get rid of the templates at the top? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 00:24, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Obviously not, considering that User:North8000 and User:Gaijin42 just removed the merge template through edit warring. This article is clearly a POV fork of gun politics.

Why is there a history of gun control both at this article and at Gun control in Germany? Because certain editors find it amenable to their ideology to paint supporters of gun control as Nazis, which is propaganda straight out of the NRA playbook. Shameful. — goethean 00:52, 15 December 2013 (UTC)