Talk:Russians at War

Is it possible to watch the film?

If yes, then how? Thanks,   Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 19:39, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

You asked on the talk page for the 'Russians at war' movie where you might be able to see it. I've deleted your question; article talk pages are intended for discussing article improvement, only. I say this without any snark - Google is the first stop. Second, the lede of the article states it premiered at the 81st Venice International Film Festival. Film festival entries are almost always shown before the film is released elsewhere. But you can probably visit the Venice festival website and learn more about where it may end up being shown - probably streamed, as it's unlikely to be a film that would earn anything at theaters (notwithstanding that documentaries almost never make it to theater release any more to begin with). cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 15:48, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

This is about improving the article. Editors can better frame edits if they view the media. Making blind edits without viewing the media is less helpful than actually have watched the media in question. In terms of searching the internet, that has been done and have come up empty. I feel like anastrophe wants to censor the subject.   Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 16:35, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

No, you are incorrect. Editors editing the article based on viewing the movie would be presenting their own opinions. That's called original research. We go by what reliable sources have stated, not the judgements editors have made from viewing a movie personally. Removing the question has nothing to do with censorship; I'm baffled how you come to that conclusion. Asking if the movie can be viewed has nothing to do with directly discussing material improvements to the article, that's why I deleted it. Are you suggesting that the article should state that editors don't know if it's possible to watch the film? cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 17:14, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

No, you are incorrect. Editors are allowed to use wp:common sense. All the of the criticism is one sided. We have not heard from other sources and viewing the media may bring some common sense to the article.   Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 21:40, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

More relevant is MOS:FILMPLOT. Most film plot (or synopsis) sections are written without references, i.e. with an implicit reference to the primary source: the film.

Also, distribution is an aspect we cover in film articles, so this was a perfectly fine and relevant question to ask. Nardog (talk) 23:05, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

It's a documentary, not a popular fiction movie. Common sense would generally suggest that if one searches the 'net and can't find any information about where to view a film that was just a few days ago submitted to a film festival, it's self-evident that it is not yet available for viewing outside of the film festival (where reliable sources - film critics - are often found). Using the talk page to ask questions about the topic of an article is generally 'frowned' upon. Quoting from WP:NOTAFORUM: In addition, bear in mind that article talk pages exist solely to discuss how to improve articles; they are not for general discussion about the subject of the article, nor are they a help desk for obtaining instructions or technical assistance. Material unsuitable for talk pages may be subject to removal per the talk page guidelines.

Simply asking Is it possible to watch the film? If yes, then how? offered no context for the query, and it, in itself, gave no clue as to intent or motive for asking the question. I do a lot of editing here, and I've run across too many instances of people pushing some general query about the topic of an article to the talk page, with no clear intent to improve the article (e.g. "Does salt water taffy have sea water in it?", things like that). It happens frequently, and often results in the question being summarily deleted per WP:NOTAFORUM. Perhaps next time, include the context for asking the question. As written, it looked like a random question that would be more suitable for a 'net search. cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 00:33, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

they are not for general discussion about the subject of the article

This isn't a general discussion about the subject of the article. I thought it would be obvious that knowing first hand about the subject, rather than relying on bias sources was a good thing.

it's self-evident that it is not yet available for viewing outside of the film festival

Irrelevant. When it becomes available then respond on the talk page. Also wikipedia editors are a smart bunch that have clever ways above what is visible in the first few pages of an internet search.

It's a documentary, not a popular fiction movie

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Film#Documentaries

Documentary films require a modified approach for their articles. Instead of a plot summary, a documentary article should have a synopsis that serves as an overview of the documentary. The synopsis should describe the on-screen events without interpretation, following the same guidelines that apply to a plot summary (see WP:FILMPLOT).

Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 16:39, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

"Critical" Response?

Much of the content in the "Critical Response" section seems to be political responses rather than film criticism. Should it be split up? Thrilway (talk) 18:15, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

That would make sense. Adebax (talk) 13:54, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree. I even suggested earlier to split this section to the reception by industry, response in Ukrainian-Canadian community and reception by festivals but my proposed changes were reverted. I think it makes sense not to blend several types of responses. Plus a common reader might perceive the word "Critical" as something negative and not as "Analytic" even though "Critical" means analytic. So I suggest returning my sections. EVS-VR (talk) 21:00, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Your edit [1] added Notable, during Ms. Bassel's press conference at the festival on September 4th, 2024, Ms. Bassel admitted that she didn't watch the "Russians at War" yet when she was making this comment. Where in the source she saying that? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:14, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Plus there is a mixup of the text in Critical Response and Controversy. There is also no subheading under the Controversy title, but then level-2 section follows in the Controversy section. Part of the Critical Response covers the Controversy issues. It also misses several reviews of the film. I suggest 1) having a section, level 1 “Controversy” and move all types of responses under that title, as level-2 sections. After the text is all about responses. We can also change the title of such big section to “Controversy and critical response”. The level-2 subsections here would be: 1) Response from film festivals and professional organizations 2) Response from media 3) (maybe) Response from politicians 4) anything on controversy here, if needed Volunt (talk) 19:51, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

I reworked the entire page changing the subtitles and the structure in line with the other Wikipedia pages Re: films - please see the version below and feel free to post it. It has the latest information about festivals and reviews in the media.EVS-VR (talk) 17:54, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Introductory paragraph requires amendment

I think we need to be less handwavy about the very serious allegations against the film - it's very dangerous to present it as a regular documentary film - which it is not. I propose an amended introduction to raise awareness of controversy early on:

Russians at War is a 2024 documentary film directed by Russian-Canadian cinematographer Anastasia Trofimova, which has been widely criticized as Russian propaganda. The Canadian and Ontario government-funded film focuses on the perspective of Russian soldiers invading Ukraine during the ongoing 2014 Russian-Ukrainian war. It premiered at the 81st Venice International Film Festival.

OR

Russians at War is a 2024 documentary film directed by Russian-Canadian cinematographer Anastasia Trofimova. The Canadian and Ontario government-funded film focuses on the perspective of Russian soldiers invading Ukraine during the ongoing 2014 Russian-Ukrainian war. It premiered at the 81st Venice International Film Festival, after which it was widely criticized as Russian propaganda.

Please amend ASAP! 0lida0 (talk) 13:21, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

This debate gets extremely polarised, just like in the palestine-israel conflict, where all intentions of seeing humans on the other side are critized. Many critiques haven't even seen the film, as it was written here in a former version, too. Adebax (talk) 13:57, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Your opinion about the poor misunderstood Russian soliders is irrelevant to topic at hand. Introduction still needs amending to illustrate the significance of the controversy surrounding it - it would not have been this widely covered in media without widespread criticism that it is a thinly-veiled a Russian propaganda film. 0lida0 (talk) 14:45, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah, no longer needs amending - thanks eds! 62.197.35.21 (talk) 14:46, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

The following sentence is very awkward: "The film focuses on the anti-war perspective and thoughts about Russian-Ukrainian unity reflected by Russian soldiers fighting on the front lines in Ukraine and civilians burying their men during the Ukrainian-Russian war." Also, the director's own descriptions of the film don't suggest that it is focused on any of these things. Surely, this sentence deserves a citation if there is any evidence to support it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.158.225.146 (talk) 00:47, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Worth adding another Russian voice

suggest including this paragraph:

Russian director Vitaly Mansky said that "it is quite obvious that the author is on the side of their heroes" and called the film's screening in Venice "a mistake by the festival." Mansky himself attempted to send a cameraman to film on the Russian side during the invasion, but his cameraman was promptly arrested.

0lida0 (talk) 16:06, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Ms Bassel hadn't watched the film when she criticized it

Greetings @UrbanVillager, you added During Ms. Bassel's press conference at the festival on September 4, 2024, she indicated that that she "hadn't watched the "Russians at War" yet" when she was making these comments - [2] , where the source says so? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:16, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

There are more issues with your edit. Mansky himself attempted to send a cameraman to film on the Russian side during the invasion, but his cameraman was promptly arrested. sourced to Все переругались из-за фильма «Русские на войне». Его сняли на российской стороне фронта и показали в Венеции Разбираемся с экспертами «Медузы» — военными аналитиками и Антоном Долиным, — как относиться к этой картине — Meduza - why was it removed? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:29, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

The Ukrainian government sent a protest letter to the 81st Venice International Film Festival in August 2024, before the film's trailer (September 4) or the film itself (September 5) had been released - where's the source for that? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:30, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

The film sparked backlash from some regional experts, Canadian politicians and the Ukrainian-Canadian community, who characterized it as "Russian propaganda." - why was it removed? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:33, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. The cited article in fact says that she made her comments after seeing the film. The cited article is directly contradicting this Wikipedia article in this regard. 104.158.225.146 (talk) 22:22, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Ms Zhurba & Bassel's press-conference was on September 4th, during which she gave a long answer to the question about Russians at War, justifying why she didn't watch the film yet, and why does she think that it is a Russian propaganda. So technically she hasn't watched the film while responding to that question. EVS-VR (talk) 21:11, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

proofs? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:16, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

The proof is in the press-conference video, referenced in the latest version of this film's Wiki page, see the section below EVS-VR (talk) 21:56, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

During the film's word premiere at the 81st Venice International Film Festival on September 5, 2024, the film received a five-minute standing ovation - where you take those from? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 08:24, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

See the reference mentioning the ovation is in the latest version of the film's page offerend in this Talk page - it should be published asap. The current text is severely outdated EVS-VR (talk) 17:54, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

We were there at the premier, recorded the ovation and timed it. Question is - where should we post it just to prove the point, if otherwise it would be not interesting to watch and has limited information? EVS-VR (talk) 21:12, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Who are "we"? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:16, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

My spouse and I, who were at the premier EVS-VR (talk) 21:53, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

But it was not your spouse but UrbanVillager who added the text. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:58, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Super, so it wasn't just us who were at the premier. I hope more people who were there would comment here, to verify this fact EVS-VR (talk) 22:03, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

so it wasn't just us who were at the premier
How do you know? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 22:08, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean "How do I know? It was a big audience in the Grande theater, what is here to know? EVS-VR (talk) 16:02, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

In case it matters: I was there, in Venice, and the ovation indeed lasted longer than for other films. It felt like 10 minutes for me, and I didn't time it. I remember seeing the film director as a petit skinny girl, not knowing how to react, not expecting such attention and breaking into crying after the 2nd minute of ovation. So the audience tried to support her, I guess. The main sense was that she, by her own initiative, risked her life to record the evidence of Russian soldiers saying, "We don't want to kill Ukrainians; they were always our brothers". I am sure this film will screw up Putin's plans to recruit more soldiers. I find it almost funny that it is the Ukrainian media that is most aggressive against the film, whereas the film wants to save lives, including Ukrainians. Volunt (talk) 20:00, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

I think the line about the ovation should be returned to the published text. Volunt (talk) 20:01, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

See WP:PROOF. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:08, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

You write Within the film industry, Trofimova's film was recognized as an original, professionally done and gutsy anti-war documentary.[10][9][11][6][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19]

I'm looking at the source [3] and it writes "This film may mislead you into believing that it is an anti-war film, one that questions the current regime in Russia," Darya Bassel, a producer who watched the film at the festival, said in a Facebook post. "However, what I witnessed is a prime example of pure Russian propaganda," she said. The whole edit should be reverted. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 08:31, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

This reference was was likely included after the text was posted, so it was not in line with the other references, and should be removed to the section "Reception by the Ukrainian media" or "Reception in the industry". The rest of the paragraph should be returned. EVS-VR (talk) 21:16, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

This reference was was likely included after the text was posted
No. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:24, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

I see the proposed version of User:EVS-VR with many citations about the anti-war film, all of which were deleted from the page, why? Now you have only this "may mislead you" version in the history. I will dig out the proposed references and suggest the edit. So I think the sourced text from User:EVS-VR should be added here. Complexity1 (talk) 22:53, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

i agree, the current version is a very early versions. I saw many informative lines in EVS-VR version, I thought someone should add them 2605:8D80:6C1:7789:6B09:83C9:6258:3CA7 (talk) 23:34, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

You also removed Historian Ian Garner noted that Trofimova's claim that she did not have official permission to film the soldiers "hardly stands up to scrutiny in a country where independent journalism simply does not exist"
and replaced it with Some media outlets expressed doubts about Trofimova's accompanied the Russian military to the front, filmed footage of military equipment and operations, asked her provocative questions and lived there for 7 months without an official approval from the Russian Ministry of Defense ManyAreasExpert (talk) 08:47, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

This sentence is not very relevant for the films about the wars as many war journalists risk their lives going back and forth between borders. During the wars, official permissions are often omitted, especially for documentalists, who have to record events here and now, not waiting for formalities to be completed. Besides, as in the story of Mansky about an arrest of his operator, during the wars, there should be additional creativity and risks, and not reliance on "things as usual". Trofimova made several films about ISIS, which, considering the content of the films, required permissions of 4 different countries, and none of them were obtained. This is just a specifics of war journalism. EVS-VR (talk) 21:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

You haven't addressed the concerns raised above. So they stay. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:24, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

I did address it: Mr. Garner forgets or is not aware of the specific of war journalism. The film is about the war, so such specifics is expected. The industry knows it, that is why nobody in the industry worries about it. We hear such questions only from outsiders of the industry. I also suggest returning the deleted fragment about Trofimova asking provocative questions. Being Canadian, asking provocative questions to the Russian solders at the front is rather risky. This is important for the context of the film. EVS-VR (talk) 21:51, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Re: doubts that Trofimova went without "supervision" or permission of military - why did her responses to criticism were removed from this wiki page? It is better to hear from the "horse' mouth". Considering her ISIS-related films, I trust her story completely, it is her style. EVS-VR (talk) 21:24, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

The whole edit was misleading and was removed. After so much misleading info, every sentence needs to be checked. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:26, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

What part was misleading? Did you watch the film? Were you in touch with the film team to know the specifics? Did you watch Trofimova's other films, to get the sense of your style, focus and levels of risks that she is used to? Please base your suggestions on facts, as I do. EVS-VR (talk) 21:47, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

What part was misleading?
Should we really answer this while this very topic is all about it. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:49, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

So it sounds like you haven't watched the film so you shouldn't participate in editing of this page. EVS-VR (talk) 21:52, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't matter whether or not Wikipedia editors have seen the film. The point is credible sourcing and objectivity.

But heads up to everyone - this "you haven't seen it so you can't have an opinion" line is the party line that all russian trolls are pursuing at present, whether or not the person they're arguing with has seen the film. 0lida0 (talk) 21:58, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

It DOES matter if the editors use a judgemental and evaluative language (such as "Russian propaganda"), and not just add relevant information. EVS-VR (talk) 22:06, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

The film was widely criticised for being russian propaganda – that is a simple fact that can be sourced and referenced by reliable sources. The film would have received zero media attention without the immediate critical reactions after people saw it at venice. 0lida0 (talk) 22:11, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

It was widely criticized in Ukrainian and some (not all) Russian opposition media but the reviews in Western media were positive. I think, it makes sense to have sub-sections in the Critical Response part. EVS-VR (talk) 18:55, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

I see little point in separating them by nationality and some don't fall into neat boxes, e.g. Garner is writing in the Moscow Times, which is based in the Netherlands, from Canada. Mansky is Russian but Meduza is based in Riga. Ukraine is a western country in that it's part of frontline Europe, so it could be generally better considered appropriate to group those reviews with more fawning Canadian reviews and separate the Russian reviews. Trying to make clear distinctions is a losing battle. 0lida0 (talk) 19:03, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

That's from the press conference. [4] UrbanVillager (talk) 20:01, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

My mistake, mixed up the filmmakers. Ms. Zhurba made the comment on not seeing it. Apologies. --UrbanVillager (talk) 20:02, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Censorship by Wikipedia editor, possible WP:COI

Controversy removed from introduction, important quotes from Mansky and Garner removed. Who is editing this into a press release for Trofimova? Stoptheprop (talk) 22:28, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Introduction should have a general information, and controversy should be placed under "Controversy" EVS-VR (talk) 21:25, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

See WP:LEAD. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:27, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Toronto police said they made no safety recommendations

"In a statement to CBC, the Toronto Police Service said the decision to pause screenings was made independently by event organizers, and not based on any recommendation from Toronto Police." https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/russians-at-war-paused-1.7321915 Stoptheprop (talk) 00:12, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

just added to the article, cheers. Tdmurlock (talk) 05:51, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Maybe we can remove it from the lead as per this discussion and being not historically significant. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:01, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

i think it should be left in - if we're mentioning why it was pulled we need to clarify that TIFF's reasoning was not corroborated by police. Need balance. 0lida0 (talk) 19:11, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I would characterize the screening cancellation as being news-ly and not significant for the lead as well. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:20, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Why does it matter whether it was recommended by the police or not? What difference does that make to anything? Bearcat (talk) 18:52, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

If there were any significant safety threats police would be involved. 62.197.35.21 (talk) 18:55, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

And what does whether the police are involved or not have to do with anything? What difference does that make? People wanted the film cancelled, and now that it's been cancelled they're still criticizing TIFF for cancelling it? Bearcat (talk) 20:37, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

It's a matter of being objective and stating the facts. TIFF said there were safety threats, police denied there were any safety threats significant enough for police to be involved. It's not our fault if that makes TIFF look bad. 0lida0 (talk) 20:48, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

New article, with potential additions for critical Response section, suggested adds

Suggest:

Other critics noted that Trofimova engaged in to stylistic efforts to create an atmosphere of innocence. "Anastasia endeavors to empathize with Russians not only diegetically but also cinematically. For instance, throughout the film, images of the characters are interspersed with observational footage of kittens in the military camp's interiors" said critic Volodymyr Chernyshev. "It’s just empathy for the soldiers without any critical context," said Anna Hints, director of Smoke Sauna Sisterhood.

--

As a result of the documentary, there were calls for Canada to investigate the "shameful" public funding of a Russian propaganda film. 0lida0 (talk) 19:10, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Duplication of information

These parts of the intro are duplicates of existing information in later parts of the article:

The film was criticized as Russian propaganda, while the Toronto festival organizers defended the film as being "anti-war".

This information is already in the "Controversy" section.

Although public screenings were cancelled, with organizers blaming "significant threats", Toronto police were reported to be "not aware of any active threats".

This information is already in the "Response from film festivals and professional organizations" subsection.

I would recommend erasing these two sentences from the intro because a. they're duplicates, b. they're referring to a very sensitive issue that could easily be misunderstood by casual readers, and c. they're inviting users to a fight over who said what at the very beginning of the article.

My proposal is to add a simple neutral sentence like "The film caused controversy following the world premiere." and those interested in the controversy can learn about it in depth in the appropriate section, with enough different viewpoints on the matter. Thoughts? --UrbanVillager (talk) 20:08, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

urbanvillager has been clocked for trying whitewash this article and inserting inaccuracies . The controversy should be in the introduction as it is basically its major defining feature - there would be little media coverage of this film without it. 0lida0 (talk) 20:32, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

The nature of the controversy needs to be specified as the article states that it is a documentary film, and that is not strictly the case if it is a work of propaganda - that requires early clarification so readers are not misled. Otherwise we should introduce it as a documentary/propaganda film. 0lida0 (talk) 20:34, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Agree with UrbanVillager. OlidaO is clearly biased, devaluing the anti-war focus of this film. Trofimova risks her life, going their on her own (even Dolin can't believe that that was real, and praised her if it is) - similarly as she did in her other projects. She will likely get a very negative reaction from Russia when the film will reach Russia. So how it is propaganda? I wonder if OlidaO saw the film. I think editing of this page should be done by people who watched the film, as I did in Venice. EVS-VR (talk) 21:32, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Windsor paragraph

I would argue we don't need this paragraph at all. I recommend deleting, but if kept I recommend this tweak as existing para assumes TIFF threat claims are real.

The film will be shown at the Windsor International Film Festival which will run from October 24 to November 3, 2024. Executive director Vincent Georgie stated that "the film is there to create discussion and debates" and added that there will be additional security measures during the showings of the film, in response to TIFF's claims of threats. 0lida0 (talk) 15:59, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

or, "in response to alleged threats". I don't think there should be an assumption that the threats were real given the statements from police 0lida0 (talk) 09:28, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Another possible addition

British journalist Edward Lucas said that in adding the film to festival programs, "decision-makers should expect a storm of criticism for their mistakes. Lawmakers should ask questions. So should sponsors. Festival-goers can complain. With luck, Trofimova’s film may eventually serve a useful purpose, as a career-killer for all those so shamefully involved in making and promoting it." 0lida0 (talk) 19:50, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Anita Lee isn't a critical response

she's involved in festival programming so not a film critic

https://tiff.net/programmers/anita-lee 0lida0 (talk) 19:59, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Agree. Festivals have vested interest in self-promotion. Should only be used if described and assessed by secondary sources. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:19, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

The whole section "Critical Response" is a mix-up and should be probably united with "Controversy" and then structured. Perhaps, into subsections, as I suggested above. Volunt (talk) 20:06, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Edit protected

Please add a hatnote:

This article is about the 2024 film. For Russian-participating wars, see List of wars involving Russia.

{{about|the 2024 film|Russian-participating wars|List of wars involving Russia}}

-- 64.229.88.34 (talk) 03:29, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

 Done Bunnypranav (talk) 13:55, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

THR did not confirm anything

This new addition is incorrect'

"At the screening, festival CEO Cameron Bailey stated that "In emails and phone calls, TIFF staff received hundreds of instances of verbal abuse. Our staff also received threats of violence, including threats of sexual violence." Although Bailey did not state this on the record, The Hollywood Reporter further confirmed that TIFF staff had received numerous worrying inquiries requesting schematic floor plan diagrams of the Scotiabank Theatre, and precise details of its security arrangements for the entrance and exit of high-profile talent to and from the venue."

The Hollywood Reporter is simply quoting Bailey verbatim, who did speak on the record, and provides no additional evidence of threats. 0lida0 (talk) 06:26, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

We should also add:

Two Ukrainian murals were desecrated with red paint near the TIFF festival premises. 0lida0 (talk) 11:49, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 September 2024

The proposed edit should be left on the Talk page - removal of it hides important sources relevant for the page. So why the edit was cut out?EVS-VR (talk) 15:17, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

This page is such a soup of statements and is outdated in terms of information that using the format "replace X with Y" in the proposed edit would not be efficient at this stage. Here is a comprehensive and the most recent version that accommodated previous information and addressed the following concerns: 1) The section describing the film’s screenings at the festivals was renamed to Release, a more common section’s subtitle for Wikipedia pages about films. Similarly, the section Critical Response was renamed to Reception, and additional references were added to this section. The Release section was positioned before the Reception section, in line with the format of other wiki’s pages about films. 2) The section Release (the information about its releases in the festivals) was updated, including TIFF screening and information about other festivals. 3) The introductory paragraph of the previous version had duplicating information about the premiere and controversy (this information is given in the subsequent sections) and so was removed. 4) The Synopsis section had several duplicated sentences, which were integrated in one logical text in this new version. 5) The reference on 5 min ovation was added, as requested by other editors. 6) The reference that Ms. Freeland hadn’t seen the film when she was making her statement on September 10, 2024, being in British Columbia, was added to the text, as requested. 7) The opening chart with the formal information: the runtime information was added, please stop deleting it. Also, the line “starring” is irrelevant here as this is a documentary about “just life”, with no celebrities. 8) the editor macaddct1984 kindly suggested submitting it as is again after I pointed out that the format "replace X with Y" would not work. EVS-VR (talk) 05:57, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Copy pasting the entire article is not the appropriate way to request a change, an edit request needs to be in a "change X to Y" format. This request needs also needs to be broken up into more managable sections, possibly utilizing the {{text diff}}. – macaddct1984 ^{(talk | contribs)} 16:50, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I've contacted Macaddct1984, explaining that and this editor suggested the "change X to Y" format wouldn't work in this mess. So this editor suggested reposting the new version again. EVS-VR (talk) 03:36, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I suggest you create your version in your userspace (e.g. User:EVS-VR/Russians at War) and then request an edit. That way a reviewer can compare it to the live version like a normal edit using Special:ComparePages. Nardog (talk) 23:51, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Replace paragraph

REPLACE

At the screening, festival CEO Cameron Bailey stated that "In emails and phone calls, TIFF staff received hundreds of instances of verbal abuse. Our staff also received threats of violence, including threats of sexual violence."[39] Although Bailey did not state this on the record, The Hollywood Reporter further confirmed that TIFF staff had received numerous worrying inquiries requesting schematic floor plan diagrams of the Scotiabank Theatre, and precise details of its security arrangements for the entrance and exit of high-profile talent to and from the venue.[39]

WITH

At the screening, festival CEO Cameron Bailey said that in emails and phone calls, TIFF staff received hundreds of instances of "verbal abuse". "Our staff also received threats of violence, including threats of sexual violence," he said. Bailey also claimed that TIFF staff had received inquiries requesting schematic floor plan diagrams of the Scotiabank Theatre, and precise details of its security arrangements for the entrance and exit of high-profile talent to and from the venue, though no further evidence was provided that this was connected to the screening of Russians at War.

Two blue and yellow Ukrainian murals were desecrated with red paint near the TIFF festival premises in an act of anti-Ukrainian sentiment.

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(THR did not independently confirm that Bailey's statements were true.) 0lida0 (talk) 09:03, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Tagging user:Manyareasexpert - is there any way you can fix this? I don't have permission. 0lida0 (talk) 11:39, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Bailey also claimed that TIFF staff had received inquiries requesting schematic floor plan
That's not what the source says. I just suggest trimming the wording since sources В Украине возбудили уголовное дело в отношении автора документального фильма «Русские на войне» Анастасии Трофимовой — Meduza tell this story quite shorter. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 09:50, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

My bad, original is a little different but still suggests that there was no independent confirmation - wording indicates that the source was still Bailey but he did not want that specific snippet to be attributed to him (imo but can't prove that).

Suggested change then:

REPLACE

At the screening, festival CEO Cameron Bailey stated that "In emails and phone calls, TIFF staff received hundreds of instances of verbal abuse. Our staff also received threats of violence, including threats of sexual violence."[39] Although Bailey did not state this on the record, The Hollywood Reporter further confirmed that TIFF staff had received numerous worrying inquiries requesting schematic floor plan diagrams of the Scotiabank Theatre, and precise details of its security arrangements for the entrance and exit of high-profile talent to and from the venue.[39]

WITH

At the screening, festival CEO Cameron Bailey said that in emails and phone calls, TIFF staff received hundreds of instances of "verbal abuse". "Our staff also received threats of violence, including threats of sexual violence," he said. Further reports indicated that there had been inquiries about venue floor plans and security arrangements, though no further evidence was provided that this was connected to the screening of Russians at War.

Two blue and yellow Ukrainian murals were vandalised with red paint near the TIFF festival premises in an act of anti-Ukrainian sentiment.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 0lida0 (talk • contribs) 16:16, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I feel like I should stay away from this article for a time. We'll wait until more overview sources will describe the developments and will get back to it with those.
Here are some latest sources
СБУ розпочало кримінальну справу проти режисерки-пропагандистки Анастасії Трофімової (pravda.com.ua)
В Украине возбудили уголовное дело в отношении автора документального фильма «Русские на войне» Анастасии Трофимовой — Meduza
"Русских на войне" публике не покажут – DW – 03.10.2024
СБУ возбудила уголовное дело в связи с фильмом "Русские на войне" (svoboda.org)
Ukraine's SBU investigating director of controversial 'Russians at War' documentary Trofimova (kyivindependent.com) ManyAreasExpert (talk) 15:43, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

References

Edit protected

Please add the following Critical Response: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_at_War#Critical_response

In his review for the French Radio Canada (https://ici.radio-canada.ca/ohdio/premiere/emissions/dans-la-mosaique/segments/rattrapage/1858084/chronique-cinema-hudson-moura-russians-at-war-et-the-substance), Hudson Moura, professor of Politics & Film at Toronto Metropolitan University, criticizes Anastasia Trofimova (https://www.hudsonmoura.net/russians-at-war-by-anastasia-trofimova-propaganda-or-complex-portrait-of-soldiers-in-conflict/) for omitting a key aspect of her positionality, which is essential in any first-person documentary. While Trofimova identifies herself as Russian, she neglects to mention her Canadian ties, despite Canada being both a major player in the Ukrainian conflict and a producer of the film. This omission, according to Moura, undermines the film's credibility, particularly in the context of its broader narrative and the geopolitical implications surrounding the conflict. Cruden (talk) 18:23, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Cherry-picking, again

@User:Manyareasexpert, you do cherry-picking probably much more than others as you consistently remove sourced content and suggest irrelevant content. My well-sourced text proposed on September 25, and then on October 1, 3 was completely removed by you. Today I checked the history of edit, and I see you slashed another big parts of sourced text. Yet, you keep offering irrelevant parts, such as that Toronto police was not aware of threats (irrelevant if the TIFF had its own security and if the TIFF CEO described threats in his public speeches twice and gave the interviews on this matter - sources that you removed); or you remove sources confirming that other festivals kept the film in the program but cancelled public viewing due to threats. This is BAD FAITH and cherry-picking behaviour.EVS-VR (talk) 15:15, 16 October 2024 (UTC) @UrbanVillager, regarding your edit [5] . You removed
DW noted that the film is controversial. The producers say the film is anti-war. Critics criticize it for sympathizing the invading soldiers and for not informing the viewer on the Russian war crimes. On the other side, "Trofimova's film is considered one of the few documentary video evidence from the Russian side of the front."
and replaced it with
Germany's DW News: "Trofimova's film is considered one of the few documentary video evidence from the Russian side of the front."
This is cherry-picking again. It has been discussed before - see Talk:Russians at War#Ms Bassel hadn't watched the film when she criticized it .
Your edit removed the reference to Historian Ian Garner noted that Trofimova's claim that she did not have official permission to film the soldiers "hardly stands up to scrutiny in a country where independent journalism simply does not exist" , again. Please attend previous concerns before re-adding your text with edit war.

I see that the content of the main page is reversed to the very old version, and the history shows that the User:Manyareasexpert had many big cuts, including those that indeed look like cherry-picking. I saw several important suggestions from the User:UrbanVillager, User:EVS-VR and others but now I see the new information disappeared again. It looks like vandalism to me. Now the page misses important evaluations of the film from the journalists who saw the film, and the film's history at the 6 festivals. Now the editors have to dig it from the history, and it would be better if someone who has access to editing, be more respectful to the verified information. I thought the information spoke for itself, but I guess I have to collect and present whatever pieces I can find in history. It would be helpful if User:Manyareasexpert stops their cherry-picking cuts and keep the added referenced information, even if they didn't like it. Complexity1 (talk) 22:47, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I looked at the edit by User:UrbanVillager, there was nothing wrong with it, it should be added. 2605:8D80:6C2:EB3F:2010:EC53:D148:2BBA (talk) 01:16, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Also, a warning against edit warring: WP:EW is not allowed, please avoid it and seek consensus on a talk page first. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:47, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Why didn’t you re-add what was removed? Why did you remove a ton of sourced material? I think what you did was much worse. 109.245.33.91 (talk) 14:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

The editor has a history of WP:BALANCE violation edits, adding a misleading and false material. If you want to dive into their edits you are welcome to bring here those pieces which you'd like to re-add. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 14:28, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Hold on, the question wasn’t about the editor, ad hominem attacks make me question your good faith. Why did you remove a ton of sourced material? ‘You can say what you’d like to re-add’ is not an answer, could you please answer? 178.148.167.128 (talk) 14:46, 16 October 2024 (UTC)