User talk:JzG/Archive 24: Difference between revisions

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I have moved house, am doing masses of real-life type stuff and will be below normal wiki-activity levels for a while.

Evolutionary musicology merger

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Musilanguage

I'm happy to do the merger, by the way. Uncle G 10:34, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Chris Robertson article

Tyro nominated Chris Robertson for deletion and it was then speedy userfied by you (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chris Robertson). I was the orignial creator of the Chris Robertson article - and the article I wrote was about the sqaush player Chris Robertson, a former professional player who was once the world junior champion and ranked No. 3 in the world. I suspect that what happened is that Urbanaddict then changed the article to one about a different Chris Robertson (who may well be himself). I've now recreated the Chris Robertson article in a similar format to when I orginally wrote it. I think it should stay as the squash player is, in my opinion, encyclopedicly notable. But the page may need monitoring to stop Urbanaddict tinkering with it. Zaxem 03:01, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:There is no deadline

I am proposing a merging with this article and WP:GREAT due to the similarity in content. Agree? Please reply on my talk page.

RFA thanks

File:IMG 3666border cropped.jpg

Thanks so much for your support on my RFA, which closed successfully this morning with a result of (64/3/3). I will be stepping lightly at first trying to make sure I don't mess up too badly using the tools. Any further advice/guidance will be gratefully accepted. I hope I will live up to your trust! NawlinWiki 11:16, 26 August 2006 (UTC) talk contribs[reply]

RfA message

		My RfA video message
		Stephen B Streater 08:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Ackoz

Hello,

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Ackoz. Please add evidence to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Ackoz/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Ackoz/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, --Tony Sidaway 11:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support

I just came across the Arbcom case concerning ParalelUni and I would like to offer you my support. Comments like the ones he made have no place in Wikipedia, or in real life and I hope his ban will be endorsed by the Arbcom. Anyway, I hope this won't stop you from editing. If you ever need any help to get through a rough patch let me know. I'd be happy to share my recent Esperanza-ness with you. - Mgm|^(talk) 08:37, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Countries

What are these two countries?? Georgia guy 17:49, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why did you move Bowser?

King Bowser, bowser

There was a debate, and a consensus in favor of moving to Bowser already. Why should we have to go through a new consensus because you decided that the previous one was invalid? - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Because the previous "consensus" seems to have been between Nintendo fans and other Nintendo fans, and because the term bowser is the generic term for mobile tankers, the local term for fuel pumps in Australia and New Zealand, and is the main meaning of the word in dictionaries and treeware encyclopaedias, with around a century of usage to back it up. I said all this already. Having bowser as a dab page is the obvious answer, which is what we do for Hoover. Just zis Guy you know? 08:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, yeah, I forgot, Nintendo fans' opinions are of no worth. And will you stop using a dictionary entry? The dictionary covers NO FICTIONAL CHARACTERS WHATSOEVER. That is a horrible argument that holds no weight, and is essentially saying that being real is more important than being more deserving of the main article title.

Now, see - apparently, it is not agreed that it is the "right thing to do". Yes, I know, it's just Nintendo fans, and they're less worthy of being Wikipedians than Almighty You, but hey, it's always possible that you might stop thinking that you own Wikipedia. - A Link to the Past (talk) 08:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's not that Nintendo fans' opinions are of no worth, it's more that you are completely ignoring the established usage in favour of a neologistic one which is hardly a surprise given that all the discussion thus far apears to have been on Nintendo-related pages, there has been precious little input from anyone else. Having bowser as a dab page is a perfectly reasonable solution. I'm not insisting on the century-old term being at bowser, so I fail to see why you are insisting on the Nintendo usage being there, especially since I have fixed not only the links but also the links and double redirects which were broken by the move last year. Please do go back and read Steel's comments. Just zis Guy you know? 08:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This type of discussion comes up frequently when people with a particular narrow area of interest meet up on the relevant Wikipedia article. Lots of people agree with JzG's decision on this one. This encyclopaedia is written in a timeless manner. So consider some time in the future - Nintendo characters will have been long forgotten, but the more general meaning will still be in use. Stephen B Streater 08:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Correct. And ask the average person on the street - not the technophile average we have on Wikipedia - and they won't give you "nintendo" as the meaning of Bowser. Indeed, I think having a dab page there is actually generous, as far as I'm concerned the word has a primary meaning which should be in that slot - and it's nothing to do with Nintendo! --kingboyk 08:50, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Even if Nintendo is not forgotten in time, I suggest that historical perspective will not elevate the arch-enemy of the Mario brothers to the status of an everyday household word, which bowser is in Australia, with mainstream news reports like "Are Australian drivers being ripped off at the bowser?". But the most compelling arguemnt for me is that the term is a genericised trademark, like hoover or armco. Just zis Guy you know? 08:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Or maybe, JUST maybe, they, like the rest of the people with the exception of a minority of people, DISAGREE ON THE MATTER. Christ, can't it be that they have their own opinions, instead of them being a bunch of stupid Nintendo fans voting to move "kuz dey luv bowser"? Just because you got to the vote late does not mean you can say that it doesn't count. Are you going to do that with every article that you're upset you didn't get to speak your mind in? Wait for people who get a consensus, and leave it at Bowser where it was in the first place.

And maybe - JUST MAYBE - we think that because the video game character is the most notable and recognizable usage of the word Bowser? You argue that being more recognizable in Australia as something other than Bowser is more important than the fact that across the world, Bowser is a video game character, not some gas crap in Australia.

And to you two guys - how the Hell is video gaming a narror interest? Christ, again with you people! At what point does being real overpower the fact that the fictional one is more notable?! Christ! It's not even the debate, it's you being an ass and deciding a consensus is invalid because you happen to think you're the God of Wikipedia. You can't freaking say you disagree with a keep result in an AfD and delete it, so why the Hell can you decide that the consensus is invalid because you weren't a part of it?!

Cliff's notes: You're an elitist ass, and the consensus was valid, and you should be blocked for not even bothering to have a discussion before you decided that your way was the only way. I wish Wikipedia would have less of you people.- A Link to the Past (talk)

Lol, it's not wise to rant and rave like this on an admin's talk page - see WP:CIVIL. Wikipedia is not a democracy. We don't have to respect "votes", only arguments and the resultant consensus. As Guy pointed out to you, the "vote" was held amongst editors of the Nintendo page so you're not a representative sample. You now have 3 Wikipedians with no special interest telling you they disagree. ~~If you still maintain that the Nintendo article should be at Bowser you can take it to Wikipedia:Requested moves where the wider community can discuss it.~~ On that note, please refrain from cussing or there will indeed be a block issued - and it will be you my friend that gets it. --kingboyk 09:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is true. But once again we have the asserted "fact" that the Nintendo usage is more notable. No credible evidence has yet been advanced to support that. Much evidence has been advanced to contradict it. Just zis Guy you know? 09:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

On the other hand, Mario goes straight to the plumber. I was kind of surprised that Bowser went straight to the Koopa, but yeah. --badlydrawnjeff talk 10:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy to believe that if you asked a random sample of people what Mario meant they's either say "don't know" or reference the video game. If you asked the same random sample what bowser meant, I think you'd not find anything like as many who would reference the character in the video games. It's possible to have heard of Mario and never played it; that would include in a lot of parents, for example. To have heard of individual characters without having played the game is less likely. Also, there is no dictionary definition of Mario (other than as a proper noun). So: I think we agree. Where's the bunting? :-) Just zis Guy you know? 10:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hah! But yeah, pretty much. --badlydrawnjeff talk 11:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I like to think I'm on the technical side of average, and "Mario" to me is either an Italian name or a computer game. Bowser is a tank or tanker of some description. HTH! ;) BTW, what's bunting? --kingboyk 11:08, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A string of small flags used to decorate streets and large structures at times of particular celebration, m'lud. Do we have an article on bunting? Aha! I perceive that we do. Just zis Guy you know? 11:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I just noticed that per the lead of the article, the character's name is actually King Bowser Koopa. Shouldn't the article live there? --kingboyk 11:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Haven't a clue, mate. If it should then I will do the needful, it will be easy now all links are consistent. Just zis Guy you know? 11:37, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pissed off at the group, Just zis Guy. It is nothing personal. I do not have anything against you. It's your group of people, elitists. I bring up the fact that Mario is the biggest icon in gaming and highly notable all around the world (and by extension Bowser, also known as King Koopa), and you tell me that's not good enough, and your only arguments are awful. You argue that because Bowser appears in the dictionary as the real-life usages and not the fictional character, that they're more notable, which is more an argument that being real is more important than being more notable. And then the fact that it's likely more notable in Australia, yet you fail to understand that the Mario franchise is huge in Australia, as it is in Europe, North America, Asia, etc. While you have select notability and being real, I have worldwide notability. - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:28, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to be blunt but you haven't established much notability at all. You've made some very broad, sweeping comments about the Mario series in general, but (amongst other things), you haven't said anything about how that applies to Bowser. By association or extension isn't good enough, I'm afraid. Mario may well be a well known name, but that doesn't automatically mean that one of his antagonists is equally as well known, which is what you're saying. -- Steel 19:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to be blunt, but pointing out that Bowser isn't in the dictionary is an even worse argument. Bowser appears at the end of world 1 (consisting of four levels) in SMB, the best selling game ever made. In all likelyhood, people will have noticed him. Your arguments are that he doesn't appear in the dictionary (an argument that attacks his fictional status, not his notability) and that in certain regions, Bowser is known as gas pumps or something. But Mario is a huge franchise in Asia, Europe, North America and Australia. The majority of people who have played a Mario game likely will have heard of King Koopa or Bowser, but people in NA won't know what a bowser is in reference to a gas pump, neither will people in the EU. - A Link to the Past (talk) 19:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We're not talking about the Mario series, we're talking about one of many characters within it. You say that Bowser is very well known, but a Google search says otherwise. The fuel pump thing is used in everyday language, and not just in Australia.
One thing I would like to emphasise is that we're not suggesting that the fuel pump term is given the Bowser page. We're suggesting that Bowser is made a disambiguation, where each of the many uses of the word are given an entry. You are acting as though we're trying to remove all mention of the Mario character from the entire encyclopedia. -- Steel 19:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's not even that the debate is going on. You know why I am so pissed? It's because Just zis Guy is such an asshole by looking at a consensus and deciding it's invalid because he couldn't input his opinion! I've already dealt with another case of assholery where someone decided to ignore a keep result in an AfD and turned it into a redirect. I am so sick of people like you (not Steel) deciding that they have the right to ignore all rules and be completely disrespectful to people who disagree with them. I'm not showing you any respect because you've chosen to not respect others, and you thusly do not deserve any in return.

Additionally, Bowser (Nintendo) was at Bowser in the first place. Why the Hell should we have to jump through hoops to change it back? If you want to make a change, then you should freaking discuss it, not decide that Nintendo fans are too stupid to acknowledge that Bowser is the name given to a gas pump. The fact of the matter is that no only do more people probably know of Bowser or King Koopa as the video game character based on the fact that most people likely do not even know much about the gas pipes in the first place, but I assure you that there are more people who are going to search for Bowser looking for the video game character on Wikipedia, not search for a gas pump or some aviation thing. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:06, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And you, JzG, you are such a hypocrite. you decide that the move of Bowser (Nintendo) to Bowser is invalid based on the fact that you and your buddies couldn't chime in, but you then turn around and say that there cannot be an overturning of an AfD despite there being a good reason to do so, based on the fact that I was not able to present an argument, an argument which convinved a few people who voted delete to then vote keep. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Guy, please note that I have blocked A Link to the Past (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for 24 hours. I gave a gentle warning to refrain from incivility and maintain a collegiate atmosphere at penalty of such a block, to which he responded with incivility on my talk page. Please note also that I've temporarily protected the two pages in question from moves. --kingboyk 08:43, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See, that is what I'm talking about. You're as biased as anyone possibly could be! You're on his side, and you attempt to keep the article how you see fit, not how the majority sees fit. It was at Bowser originally, why should we have to try to get it put back? Why shouldn't he have to discuss it? Why shouldn't it be moved back to Bowser, protected and then unprotected when a decision has been made? Why did you decide to protect in favor of one party (coincidentally, the party that you are a part of) as opposed to the opposing party? - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's not about sides, it's about writing an encyclopaedia, and in this case specifically about writing an encyclopaedia which reflects the wider world, rather than the narrow locus of geek obsessions. Just zis Guy you know? 08:15, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That came off as kind of nasty... RN 08:36, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take your word for it; it was not meant as such (I am a self-identified geek, after all). I will confess to a degree of irritation at the use of proof by assertion in this case. Multiple credible references were provided for the longer-standing usage, and not one single reference showing that Nintendo is unambiguously the most common. Along the way I was accused by this and at least one other user of vandalism, which is plainly false since even if you disagree with it there can't be much doubt of good faith, given the reasons advanced then and now. And when the argument was clearly going against him, A Link to the Past responded by becoming more aggressive and often outright rude. Every now and then we all need to turn off the computer and remember that the world continues to exist outside. This is one of those cases. Just zis Guy you know? 08:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, I came off as nasty whenever you declared nothing wrong with what you did, which is the most laughable notion I've heard in a while. And of course, to a lesser extent, what you did right there - said we had absolutely no evidence while you have a treasure trove. You have a Google search, and I have the fact that Mario is a huge franchise, both in the 80's, 90's and the new millennium. What makes you think this doesn't say anything about Bowser's notability? People who watch the movie see King Koopa, people who watch the cartoon or read the comics see King Koopa. And people who played SMB saw King Koopa four levels in. Just because it does not prove it for absolute fact does not mean it cannot be used for him. So, if you drop your crappy attitude, you'll have much less conflict. And no, my attitude isn't crappy, it's "assholey". What you do is subtly attack people buy disrespecting him. - A Link to the Past (talk) 15:55, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. I always try to avoid getting into arguments with people with that much spare time. But I think there's consensus to move the page to King Bowser Koopa. If you could do the honours? Thanks, Ben Aveling 08:52, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hrm, now I that I am catching up on this debate it doesn't seem that bad compared to some of the other comments :(. Sorry you got involved in such an unfortunate situation... perhaps one way to look at it is that is can be very hard for someone to change their view. Personally, I agreed with the non-disambig side until I took a calm look at the debate a while ago on the grounds that it was popular usage, and it is completely understandable to me why someone would still think the other way, despite the lack of evidence. It can be hard to change one's mind without something that is completely obvious... RN 09:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

International Council for Accrediting Alternate and Theological Studies

Crazy nut is talking about his lawyer and adding uncited things about this accreditation mill.[1] And while this person is trying to pass off this accreditation mill as real, see what he did at the criticism of alternative medicine.[2]

Mitch Modeleski

There has been no activity on the talk page for over a month, and there's little precedant for keeping articles protected indefinitely without WP:OFFICE action. I'm tempted to unprotect, but I'll wait another week or so. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 18:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

More fake med schools on wikipedia

Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/UHSA The purportents of this seem to be role accounts.

Long-Overdue RfA Thanks from Alphachimp

Thanks for your support in my not-so-recent RfA, which was successful with a an overwhelmingly flattering and deeply humbling total of 138/2/2 (putting me #10 on the RfA WP:100). I guess infinite monkey theorem has been officially proven. Chimps really can get somewhere on Wikipedia.

With new buttons come great responsibility, and I'll try my best to live up to your expectations. If you need assistance with something, don't hesitate to swing by my talk page or email me (trust me, I do respond :)). The same goes for any complaints or comments in regard to my administrative actions. Remember, I'm here for you.

(Thanks go to Blnguyen for the incredible photo to the right.) alphaChimp ^laudare 01:07, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Neologism

Winter holiday season (AfD discussion)

A concept used by U.S. Supreme Court Justices in their decisions for County of Allegheny v. ACLU can hardly be called a neologism. (You can read Blackmun's opinion here, for example.) Supreme Court Justices don't have a reputation for coining neologisms. ☺ Uncle G 11:14, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It rather depends on who else has used it, I'd say. Just zis Guy you know? 11:31, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Indeed. From what I found when I went looking for sources, that would appear to be ... <cough> ... a fair number of people. ☺ Uncle G 14:58, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't stop it being a neologism, mind... ;-) Guy 15:05, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Gastrich

Use Your Naugin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Hit his diploma mill article and two of my AfDs. See: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/David Naugle and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jim Underwood. Arbusto 16:07, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Expect socks to come out of the woodwork for my recent AfDs of old Gastrich-cruft. And check out this never closed AfD from Jan. 2005. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Andy Stanley. Arbusto 02:12, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

RfA

Your thoughts welcome. Arbusto 08:35, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Clary

I know of no other Christian who makes front page news in almost every town he goes to. Also I don't know anyone who can get on local ABC radio wherever he goes either. That is notability. When he came to our town look at the response: http://www.kkkau.com Potters house 08:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's easy to get on radio, especially in the silly season, but you miss the point: what you assert is original research. Who's the reliable secondary source for him being "one of the most notable"? It's easy to find one for, say, Billy Graham or Rowan Williams. I used to know Eric James, I think he's very notable, but we only have a very short article on him and it is not padded out with the kind of hyperbole seen in Clary's article. I knew Robert Runcie as well, his influence was very strong and is still felt, but his article is both shorter and less like a fan piece than Clary's. Guy 08:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Jason Gastrich

205.157.110.11 (talk · contribs) and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/David Jeremiah Now I am being harassed by 205.157.110.11 (talk · contribs) who's first edit was to vote on four of my AfDs- and only my AfDs. I reverted these comments, and Vivaldi returned them. Now this IPs is harassing me, and Vivaldi stop editing. Arbusto 08:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm. Not sure, I really think Gastrich is gone to ground for now. Might be better to take a few calm breaths and a dose of AGF, and see if perhaps you can't see where this user is coming from. Understanding people's motives can help to work productively towards those parts of your goals which overlap. Which is pap, I'm afraid, but it's the way things go. I know you are under pressure and feeling a bit isolated right now, but please remain calm and try to stick to what you do best, which is ensuring rigorous sourcing and neutrality in articles which otherwise tend to hagiography. Guy 22:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, very true. Advice heeded. Arbusto 20:55, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It seems a new user used his first edits at the Louisiana Baptist University article, and added a link to Gastrich's website under the see also[3]. Arbusto 16:51, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bowsers and stuff

I think we've reached a consensus on Talk:Bowser (Nintendo). Feel free to move the page to King Bowser whenever you get the chance. -- Steel 10:55, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Cool. Guy 11:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

BenH back with another sock

69.68.216.31 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) has been making the same type of edits as BenH, and has the same ISP as the previous sock and BenH. I think a block for this IP would be in order. --CFIF ☎ ⋐ 15:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Blocked. Please post on WP:ANI as well next time, you'll get a quicker end to his stupidity. Guy 17:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tallest structures - "Paris area"

A few of us have managed to come into agreement over an "in the Paris area" title - as a former participant in the discussion, your views and vote on the matter would much be welcome at Talk:List of tallest buildings and structures in Paris. Thank you. THEPROMENADER 17:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Might be better to let it lie for a while. There is no deadline. Guy 22:16, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. I did let it lie for most of a month, but in the meantime a few of us actually managed to agree on something. The vote has been cast; let's ride it out. THEPROMENADER 09:54, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Question

Could you explain to me what is going on on the Diana Irey page? Some users on my page seem to be arguing and I don't seem to have all the facts. JoshuaZ 17:39, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can make out it's a small but heated content dispute between C56C and a couple of others including one anon, who was doing a lot to heat things up, so I sprotected it just to get people to be a bit more reaosnable - but there is so much argument by assertion on the Talk page that I am unable to form much of a view as to what the rights and wrongs of it all might be, so I left it at telling them to play nice. There are names there I recognise, but I think most of them have a dog in the fight by now so I can't really ask them for an unbiased view, as that would be unfair. If you can make head or tail of it then you are doing better than me, althogh to be fair I might have a better handle on it if I had more spare time right now. Guy 17:48, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lostpedia Deleted?

Hi... I'm very confused as well as the other people who pointed out the inconsistancy of deletion of pages here (I'm a regular wikipedia user, but not regular editor). As someone else pointed out, why did you delete lostpedia, but leave up fan wikis such as Wookiepedia, which is much smaller and I have never mentioned in major magazines (Lostpedia is discussed in Entertainment Weekly, the NY Times, and there is something coming out in Time about it). How does one renominate for an article to be recreated?

PS: Here is a whole list of fan wikis which have their own articles on wikipedia, most do not nearly have as many users or traffic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wikis — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.111.126.33 (talk • contribs)

I regularly patrol the list of wikis and have pruned and deleted many other insignificant examples. Lostpedia is covered as a footnote in Lost, whcih is just fine. This is supposed to be an encyclopaedia, not a web directory. Guy 21:40, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd still have to question your quality control. Wookiepedia? Tenchipedia? Lostpedia has millions of pageviews and is one of the largest wiki communites on the web, and yet isn't allowed its own page. The above two have VERY detailed pages, yet who has even heard of them? Have they been mentioned in national magazines or pop culture resources? The other writer is right who said there is a double standard and favoritism here. You should be consistant about your inclusion and exclusion policy. If you are saying that fan wikis should not be allowed a page on wikipedia, that's fine, but those other two pages should be deleted, along with a slew of others. --Vix

Two things: first, it's not my quality control; you make the mistake of assuming that I think Wookiepedia is notable, which is a big assumption. Second, the argument that some foo articles exist therefore this foo article should exist has never been persuasive. Guy 11:54, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Personal attacks.

Do not post personal attacks towards members of Wikipedia.[4] Thank you. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:17, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That is not a personal attack, it's a mirror. Look in it and see your own reflection. Please do not disrupt Wikipedia to make a point [5] Guy 21:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You were telling me that he has an opinion that is not in favor of CVG, as if that is so rare among CVG editors. Just because you didn't call me an ass does not mean that what you said was not insulting. I look into a mirror and see an unbiased Wikipedia editor. I'm the starter of a project devoted to cleaning up all cruft in fictional works, mainly gamecruft. You act as if CVG editors operate under a hive mind, and you have implied exactly that on numerous occasions - you first stated that a vote was invalid because of who the voters were. Would you say the same if the vote didn't have any game page editors at all? I doubt it. The connotation that CVG editors are inheritly biased is insulting, and if you don't see it, I hardly could think of you as unbiased, either. What could you be insinuating when you belittle CVG editors like you have?

I'll drop this if you sincerely apologize for belittling and insulting CVG editors. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

He doesn't have to apologize for anything; you'll stop being disruptive or you WILL be blocked. --InShaneee 22:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Damn, I just spent a good five minutes penning a civil response and Inshaneee said it all but better in sixteen words. Guy 22:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

RfC closures

Saw your comments - they make sense, except when I consider my own long run in with a particular anon editor see Wikipedia:Requests for comment/203.54.*.* and Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/203.54.*.* - the talk page documents recent behaviour. What would the closure be - how does one move on? Escalate to ArbCom - I don't think they really want to know. Sorry to bother you but I felt maybe there are things that don't quite fit the mould. --Golden Wattle ^talk 10:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is no need to close a case like the one you linked above, it can be left open until the problem user goes away> Alternatively it can be moved to long-term vandalism. I think the point here is that the proposal would allow closure, not enforce it. But the illustration is a good one and I will address it at the VP page. Guy 10:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks :-) --Golden Wattle ^talk 10:59, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ralbot

That's really weird...Ralbot made the edits, and I do have a bot flag for that account...are you sure you're hiding bot edits? Ral315 (talk) 16:54, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Another thing to note- when you go to your watchlist, you have to hit "hide bot edits" every time you visit it. MediaWiki doesn't save your preferences. Ral315 (talk) 16:59, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mystery solved: loss of session data on the new privacy-enhanced environment in the office. Sorry about that; I think I lost a Clue somewhere if you happen to see one... Guy 20:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I never had a clue in the first place. Wasn't aware at all that bot edits could be hidden in the watchlist! (And I run a bot! :)) --kingboyk 20:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why did you block me when I did not violate WP:3RR?

Hi,

I am appealing my recent 3RR block on the grounds that the following three questions are not answered by somebody--I don’t expect them to be answered because to the best of my knowledge the accusation that I violated 3RR is not true, but if you can shed some light I may not pursue this matter any further. Thank you for your consideration.

The sole definition of a “Revert” - as stated at WP:REVERT is “To revert is to undo all changes made after a certain time in the past. The result will be that the page becomes identical to how it used to be at some previous time”

The accusation made towards me by you is that I reverted the Vic Grimes page more than 3 times over the course of 24 hours. The following were the edits I made to the page on September 5:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vic_Grimes&oldid=73877744 (3:20) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vic_Grimes&oldid=73874225 (2:54) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vic_Grimes&oldid=73872499 (2:42) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vic_Grimes&oldid=73871536 (2:35) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vic_Grimes&oldid=73871187 (2:33) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vic_Grimes&oldid=73870424 (2:27)

If my edits meet the criterion for constituting three or more reverts, then somebody is obligated to provide me with AT LEAST FOUR links to past versions of the Vic Grimes page (PRIOR to September 5) where the page is “identical to how it used to be at some previous time.” In this case, “some previous time” refers to - as I said just a few lines above - “past versions of the Vic Grimes page (PRIOR to September 5). I am not asking for four links that make the page look NEARLY identical to how it used to be; that is NOT the definition of a revert. I want you or somebody to provide me with AT LEAST FOUR links where the page is EXACTLY, 110% the SAME as it was at any of the following times on September 4:

3:20 2:54 2:42 2:35 2:33 2:27

If AT LEAST FOUR links cannot be produced, I will continue to pursue this matter because that will indicate to me that my account was wrongfully suspended for WP:3RR despite my not violating the WP:3RR policy.

Thank you for your consideration.

JB196 JB196 19:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Read the policy: three reverts is a limit, not an entitlement; wikilawyering about precisely which reverts may or may not count and whether the reverts happened over a period of 23 or 25 hours is completely ignoring the intent of the policy, which is unambiguous - just as your behaviour was unambiguously disruptive. This has been a public service announcement from your friendly neighbourhood rouge admin, please take it to heart. Guy 20:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Awbrey's projects

Thanks for the note. After being signed-on for less than 24 hrs I'm convinced he's less interested in promoting an earnest project and more interested in tweaking the community's nose. Feel free to delete the one I joined as well... Please. FeloniousMonk 21:37, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I thought you might agree :-) Having met Jim in person (all too briefly) I'm guessing he'll be of the same mind. Guy 21:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Guy. The purpose was to keep Awbrey in check, but since FM and I have had too many encounters with him, deleting wasn't an option for a few reasons. However, if you as a fold-up-bicycle-riding independent observer and fair-minded Admin want to trash the whole thing, GO FOR IT! In gratitude, Jim62sch 22:46, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

review of process request

You may be interested in Talk:Sacraments of the Catholic Church. The page was moved after a small 3 to 1 consensus back in May (to a name that had RCC in the title). 3 months later, the 1 person who opposed the move, reverted the move against the consensus, without coming to talk, or requesting a move or anything. I asked an admin to revert that out of process move because I couldn't do it myself (not sure why, but the move tab wouldn't let me do it). This lead to a vote that seems to support the out of process's move's name. I think its messed up that there is a move first, vote second thing going on, and I thinkk going against a previous consensus is sneaky. However, now that there is more of a community to support the move, perhaps everything is fine as is. I just thought I'd bring the situation to your attention so you could review it if you have the time and feel it may be necessary. Thanks for your consideration.--Andrew c 22:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, in case it wasn't clear what I wanted you to review, because I was blocked from moving the page, I imagine the previous "out-of-process" move was probably a copy and paste move that f'd up the page histories, so perhaps that needs to be 'fixed', if that is indeed the case. Thanks again.--Andrew c 22:46, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am concerned that a lack of interest from the "silent majority" might allow Vaquero to portray a majority of those with a vested interest as being a consensus, and start moving the whole lot wholesale. There are so many potential problems with having things at Catholic (need for disambiguation, need to ocnstantly re-explain which parts of the Catholic tradition and so on) and so few with having it at Roman Catholic (actually only one as far as I can tell, which is that some really committed RC editors feel it is their church's right to be at that title). I've said it before, I know no RC who is offended by being addressed as RC rather than just Catholic, and a good many state their religion as RC.

The move history is a complete mess. Once again Vaquero has moved an article and now argues, days later, as if it was always there. But the history is in the current article, albeit with some history split elsewhere (not much, though). It has been through several homes including Sacraments (, mostly at the hands of Vaquero. Guy 23:02, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Roman Catholic Church

Hi Jz. Are you aware that you closed the debate at Talk:Roman Catholic Church prior to the notified closing. This is what is says: Voting ends 0600 UTC on 8 September 2006 This is a highly emotive debate. --WikiCats 07:58, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it would be more appropriate for an admin. who has not participated in the debate to close it. --WikiCats 09:46, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The debate is shedding more heat than light on the subject, and given that the debate has already been had several times in the recent past I am at a loss to understand why it was started in the first place. It sounds awfully like a case of keep asking until you (TINY) get the answer you want. Guy 10:16, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Moves of RC by country

On AN/I you said that only Britain and Canada are out of step with convention. There are quite a few articles in Category:Roman Catholic Church by country that are not in the form Roman Catholicism in Foo. I was going to list/move them as a group when this conflict settled down. The Canada one is important because there are two articles. Other articles out of step: Roman Catholic Church in Australia, Catholic Church in Mexico, Catholicism in Indonesia. It looks like most categories are going by Roman Catholic Church in Foo, so Category:Roman Catholicism in Korea is out of step with the category naming. Gimmetrow 12:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, my mistake. Thanks for the comment. If you need help / backup with the move let me know, I'm certainly no expert on this one but I do find that the past move warring has left a lot of multiple redirects, which clearly needs to be addressed. Unfortunately it looks to me very much as if a small coterie of poeple who can't bring themselves to allow the word Roman are going to keep asking until they get what they want or get sent packing. The whole naming question at Roman Catholic Church was settled after yet another lengthy debate only recently, and of course it's been re-opened because the answer was the "wrong" one according to them. Guy 12:43, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

List of CRM vendors

I am not necessarily saying that the article should be kept. But there are a bunch of other lists that are similiar to this one. If the list of crm vendors is deleted, so should all the other lists. Also, I don't think the article is a spam magnet since each entry must be a wikipedia article. it is no more a spam magnet than other lists. --Sleepyhead 11:57, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't care enough about it to take action on my own behalf. Sounds like you don't either :-) Maybe those other lists should also be deleted; if they are bare (i.e. no added informaiton other than the name) then perhaps they should be. Guy 12:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ron Slanina

If I may ask, does briefly being the instructor of someone who is notable confer enough notability upon the teacher that he deserves his own article? Google only brings forth hits for an actor named Ron Slanina [6] not the person this article is about. IrishGuy ^talk 23:11, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In a word: no. Being the teacher of many famous poeple might (see Ifor James) but one person? Not really. Guy 23:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Emission inventory

Please assume good faith. I would appreciate not being accused of wiki-lawyering (particularly wiki-lawyering at its worst). I know that many pages incorporate public domain material, particularly that drawn from early encyclopedia editions. If public domain material provides an acceptable source for (what I believe to be) an encyclopedic topic, I see nothing wrong with this. I am going to de-prod the article, but feel free to list it for AFD. Best, Irongargoyle 23:12, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Copy and paste is always a sign that you are doing something wrong. But actually I was accusing myself of Wikilawyering, instead of just deleting it! Sorry this was not more obvious. Guy 23:16, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. :-) Always is a big word though, per WP:IAR. Irongargoyle 23:28, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. But I stand by it: copying and pasting the entire contents of an article is never right. Even if it's from the 1911 EB, the state of knowledge has generally moved on. Guy 07:13, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Shady Side Academy

Why was the Shady Side Academy article deleted? Admittedly there were issues about page, and one or two users dedicated to vandalizing it, but I don't think deletion was the answer. Wouldn't it be better to fix the flaws than delete out right? "Country" Bushrod Washington 00:37, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Try making a version whicih has references and establishes the importance of the subject, in your user space. Guy 07:09, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know exactly what you mean with "estabish[ing] the importance of the subject." It's a school, and many other schools that are far less notable have their own articles (my own alma mater for example). Are you saying that there needs to be something more for it to be an article?

As to your complaint for lack of references, I agree. However, there are thousands of articles on Wikipedia which have no references whatsoever, maybe even more. Is the answer to delete all of them? No, the answer is to fix them. A better solution would have been to place {{fact}} tags where necessary, and start looking for citations, or deleting the individual un-cited points. Your response was, in my opinion, a cheap easy way out, and completely counterproductive. Why didn't YOU try making a version which has references and establishes the importance subject? Now we're without what was a flawed, but nonetheless useful, starting point towards making a good article. But now it's gone, and I haven't time to start from scratch. Thanks a lot. "Country" Bushrod Washington 17:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever some people may think, simply existing does not establish the importance of any institution. The problem with the article was that it had been hacked to death. Maybe at some point in the history there was a version worth having, I will take a look. Guy 17:49, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank's for undeleting the page. The version you deleted is one that I've reverted multiple times. Note my comments on talk page. Someone has a vendetta against the school."Country" Bushrod Washington 00:58, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Broken Hearts On Ice

Broken Hearts On Ice (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Hello,

I was the creator of the Broken Hearts On Ice article. Why did you delete it? It is a notable article to have, as this producer is responsible for many innovative releases of progressive and avant-garde music. He is also an icon in his home town, Fairfield Connecticut. I severely disagree with your deletion and I suggest that you give it another read to see if you really think he is not worthy of archival. He is, and will continue to be, an important icon of underground, avant-garde music. You ought to have had a hearing. --Aman9090 06:21, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It failed to amke any assertion of notability, WP:CSD criterion A7. Please see the guidelines for music articles: aspiring producers on their own labels are rarely considered notable. Guy 07:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This one was. He invented a whole new form of aleatory music, which you would have seen if you had read the article. Aspiring producers can still be notable ones. And so you just delete the article, without perhaps asking for maybe better clarification or holding a hearing? Please put the article back up, at least pending on some revisions.--Aman9090 07:19, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I read the article. It made no credible and substantiated claim of notability, which is why Elonka tagged it and I agreed. Feel free to try again, though, remembering to cite references from reliable secondary sources. You will need some pretty extraordinary evidence to overcome the fact that it scores only six unique Googles, of which two are on Wikipedia and one is his own site. Guy 07:28, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And so I'm going to have to write the whole thing over again? Why did you have to delete this so stubbornly? Couldn't you have given at least warning, or better yet, an official hearing like you're supposed to, so that I could have SAVED all of my efforts? As an 'admin', I'm sure you know the effort that goes into making these articles on Wikipedia. It just was not very helpful at all to do that. You could have easily just informed me that you felt this way about the article, and then I would have made it clearer and this would all have been painless. If for some reason the invention of a new form of aleatory music is meaningless to you guys, I would have made it meaningful. Please, please, tell me how I can get all of that information back. Thank you.--Aman9090 07:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The article was tagged for speedy deletion as failing to make any credible claim of notability. I agree: it failed to make any such claim. Notability can be crudely checked by a Google test, whcih reveals that there are, as above, six unique hits, of which two are on Wikipedia and one is his own site. You can ask for undeletion at WP:DRV if you like, but absent some really strong evidence of notability it will not be undeleted, or if it is it will be sent straight to WP:AFD. So: if you try again, please be sure to include credible external references from reliable seconadry sources. Alternatively you could try somewhere where there is a lower bar to inclusion. Remember, Wikipedia does not exist to help the interesting become significant, it exists to document that which is already verifiably significant. As an admin, I have had articles of my own deleted on occasion. It happens. Not everybody has an entirely objective view of the things they like. Guy 07:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum: you uploaded the cover art from the CD with a description that it was a picture of yourself. Please read the guidelines on writing about yourself. Guy 18:46, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Big Bang (song)

I have noticed when you closed the above AfD, you did not remove the category template, "REMOVE THIS TEMPLATE WHEN CLOSING THIS AfD". By deleting this when closing it pulls the discussion out of the category. I have deleted it from this discussion, but if you could review any other closures you have done recently and remove the tag from them it would be greatly appreicated. Thanks. --Gay Cdn (talk) (email) (Contr.) 14:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yet more code... Ah well. I'm in favour of categories, I guess, so I will watch out for this apparently new thing. Guy 17:51, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is a fairly recent change. The official policy is at WP:AFDC.

I have been going through the listing in each of the categories CAT:AFD and removing the tag from pages that are closed and adding the approriate category code for those in the uncatagorised group. Thanks.--Gay Cdn (talk) (email) (Contr.) 19:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Question...

I created the cycling proficiency test article... but support Paul Smith pretty much unreservadly... but proudly drive a 740...but am I a member of piston heads... but am a member of c+... but vandalise wikipedia constantly... but love cycling.

Therefore - am I good, back, ugly, or troll? Law of excluded middle applies.

P.S. Thanks for the tip about wiper jets on your site, very useful :D Space Vampire 1337 17:27, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You are the usual mix of good, bad, ugly, indifferent - and in supporting Smith, deranged ;-) Seriously, his arse-backwards statistical nonsense has been ridiculed by every statistician I've shown it to. Apart from that, everyone can live in peace and harmony if we want to and I'm sure if we met on uk.rec.sheds we'd share a BA and a PP and be quite happy :-) Guy 17:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Shady Side Academy

I wish you would have consulted me before deleting this, there are plenty of adequate versions in the history. Please undelete. Christopher Parham (talk) 17:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't consult because I rarely do when going through a large backlog at CAT:CSD. But I have no objection to undeleting. I didn't notice how much history it had, which should have alerted me. The substantive content at deletion was:

Shady Side Academy is an independent school in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. It was initially founded as a boy's boarding school in 1883, though the Senior School was only established at its current suburban campus in Fox Chapel in 1921. Fox Chapel High School, Shady Side Academy's other, is a public school offering the same opportunities for free.

Criticisms

The faculty is underpaid, none of them went to college, let alone high school, and students tend to be extremely flighty and dumb.

Just that. No formatting, nothing. It also had the text from the speedy and hangon tags copy-and-pasted into the article above and below the tags. A mess, like I said. Feel free to try and find a valid version in the history if you can, it's been the subject of vigorous edit warring by the looks of it.. Guy 18:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A persistent edit warrior has reverted to that version a few times. Thanks for undeleting, I'll try to keep a special eye on it. Christopher Parham (talk) 18:57, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fine. Let me know if it needs protection, I'll do my best not to pick the wrong version ;-) Guy 19:02, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In case you cared, the user who nominated the page for speedy deletion (User:Davej9475) was the same user who changed the content to the aforementioned shameful version. Thought you might want to know. "Country" Bushrod Washington 01:04, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was intending to spend a bit of time this evening looking into it, so thanks for that. I suspect I need to dust off the cluebat (and apply it first of all to myself...) Guy 14:01, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bisexual erasure

Do you have any evidence of its being "commonly used"? The very low unique Google count indicates otherwise.
When will you learn? People don't need to provide evidence for stuff like this. They just know what they're saying is fact. -- Steel 19:21, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your statement in the Vivaldi RfAr

"Arbustoo's personal views are hostile to this particular strand of fundamentalist Christianity, and as far as I can see to Christianity in general. This has not impeded a productive working relationship with other editors such as myself and JoshuaZ who are self-identified Christians" I don't know what gave you the impression that I'm Christian; I'm Jewish. JoshuaZ 21:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Damn! And I forgot to discriminate against you! You are better at neutrality than I thought. Should have guessed from the name. Guy 21:36, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

By his name? Tsk! ;) Anyway, this was an excellent response, one of the best I've ever read. Jim62sch 22:46, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, er, thanks! I find this case difficult. Arbustoo does himself no favours sometimes, sadly. Guy 23:02, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Londheart/Etaonsh

I see you consider them to be the same. Have you requested a checkuser I don't know about or are you basing this on similarities in edit behavior? It could be that they're just people with the same POV. I'm sure we could get a checkuser confirmation if we asked, though. - Mgm|^(talk) 22:03, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was basing it on this: [7] Guy 22:11, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As noted at User talk:Fred Bauder, there is no user named Londhart. That is (was) just User:Etaonsh's signature. Newyorkbrad 22:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That was how I understood it, too. Guy 22:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Normally there would be something a little bit procedurally unorthodox about responding to a user's RfAr by having the most active arbitrator indef ban the user and then declare the case moot. And normally I would say that escalating straight from 48 hours (Etaonsh/Londhart's previous record) to indef is a bit hasty. But I don't see anyone lifting a finger to advocate for another chance for this person, and I'm certainly not going to be the first. Good job on compiling the evidence. Newyorkbrad 13:48, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It was an open and shut case, I reckon, and I'm always prefer clue-based administration over slavish following of process. I was on the way to doing exactly the same myself. There's no reason arbitrators can't act in their capacity as admins; all it means is that if it comes back to ArbCom for review, Fred will have to recuse, which is no big deal. Thanks for the compliment :-) I think ArbCom have enough to do without having to find the paper trail themselves, I was just helping out, really. Guy 14:00, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fred recusing could become a big deal given that the ArbCom seems to be working in slow motion these days (they still haven't finished voting the St Chris case), but no matter. I guess we'll never know now if this gentleman's mother really died that day, though.... Regards, Newyorkbrad 14:24, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, don't worry - it'll be finished before the deadline :-) Guy 08:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Londhart, the case could be considered withdrawn by him now, which is even easier than moot. See my comment at WP:RfAr. Regarding St Chris, if they don't hurry I just might climb..... Newyorkbrad 08:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"LBU is not accredited to award doctorates"

What does this mean? You said it in the Rick Scarborough edit comments. A school doesn't need to be accredited to legally award doctorates. In effect, there is no such thing as "accredited to award doctorates." Maybe you misspoke. - JD — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jack Delay (talk • contribs)

Go through this user's history. He added two Gastrich links to the LBU page. Arbusto 01:58, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

Guy, I read your comment on my talk page and I am uncertain what you meant. The sources referenced to the geocities site are newspaper, magazine and documentary articles that are no longer available on the internet, but appeared in published form in the past. The geocities site was created as a neutral site in which articles (that were previously linked to controversial, partison and biased Anti-Sai sites) could be listed free of promotion of a particular POV. This was agreed to by all parties in mediation with BostonMA (including Andries). If you believe that the geocities site cannot be linked to, then what do you suggest? No links? Anti-Sai sites are no more trustworthy than a geocities site. They are worse because they push an antagonistic POV that is exclusively critical of Sathya Sai Baba. Furthermore, these articles were never originally published on Anti-Sai Sites. Are you saying that the previous agreement in mediation is no longer applicable? SSS108 ^talk-email 05:00, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In which case they are copyright violations. We should not link to offsite copyright violations any more than we allow them internally; we can cite treeware without having to link to a copy of it on the web. Just cite the original source. An "anti" site which can be traced to an identified authority, that is, an authority on whose expertise other authorities rely (for example, newspaper reports and TV reports) is quite acceptable, the reader is unlikely to be misled by an open statement of an agenda. As far as I can tell the balance of informed opinion is that SSB is a charlatan, and we need to reflect that in the balance of the article, which means we can't ignore the work of opponents. Guy 08:54, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There are no Anti-Sai sites that can be traced to an identified authority. Also, I must disagree with you when you say that the "balance of informed opinion is that SSB is a charlatan". Even Andries (an Anti-Sai activist) conceded that all of the people and agencies involved (that reported negative information against SSB) either held an Anti-Sai view or were sympathetic with Anti-Sai activists (something I discovered through independent research). Needless to say, all this information has been purposely withheld. Particularly disturbing was the Salon.com article. I found private e-mail correspondence between Goldberg and Anti-Sai Activists in which she confessed writing her article in cooperation with them. A fact never divulged in her article. Khushwant Singh, a journalist interviewed by the BBC, had openly stated in previous years that he was an atheist, rationalist and was anti-guru. This information was withheld in the Secret Swami programme although he was a prime interviewee. All this points to bias. Furthermore, you seem to be unaware of the numerous books and newspapers [8] that speak favorably about Sathya Sai Baba and whose numbers far exceed Anti-Sai articles. Perhaps you can reference your sources for the "balance of informed opinion"? I agree that Sathya Sai Baba is a controversial guru and I have no problem with the article discussing that. As a matter of fact, I do not object to the opposing or antagonistic POV whatsoever. SSS108 ^talk-email 15:27, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The balance of informed opinion is that one cannot produce gold, ash or indeed anything else from thin air. This much requires no citation. Guy 19:47, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Then that much you have. SSS108 ^talk-email 04:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was also thinking, would it be appropriate to say that the "balance of informed opinion" also contends that Jesus is a charlatan? After all, using your reasoning, multiplying fish and wine and walking on water would fall under this same stipulation. Is this type of commentary allowed on Wikipedia? It sounds like POV pushing to me. Please explain. SSS108 ^talk-email 05:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not many people take Bible stories literally. One common interpretation of the feeding of the five thousand is based on the well-known phenomenon of the "bring and share" meal. I have no doubt that the Bible would be a very different book if Jesus had lived in the present day. Guy 08:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Although I agree with you, I am more interested in whether or not one can include a comment on the Wikipedia articles on Buddha, Krishna and Jesus that the "balance of informed opinion" contends they are "charlatans" (your word) because the miracles attributed them are not possible. That is what I want to know. Thanks. SSS108 ^talk-email 15:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think you can compare a situation where a story was handed down by word of mouth for several generations before being written down, with one where an individual still alive makes extraordinary claims but refuses to provide the necessary extraordinary proofs. It's no different to Uri Geller, really. Guy 15:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Guy, the fact remains that miracles are attributed to Buddha, Krishna and Jesus. Since that is the case, would it be proper to call them "charlatans". Sathya Sai Baba has not been exposed for faking anything yet. Dr Erlendur Haraldsson (who wrote a book about this very issue) investigated Sathya Sai Baba's alleged miracles and found no evidence of fraud. I consider this discussion ended because I don't think any Wikipedia article can state that the "balance of informed opinion" contends they are "charlatans". That sounds like your own personal view and POV pushing. I would like references to Wikipedia policy that would allow you to include such statements in Wikipedia articles. It all has to be referenced by reliable sources. Making these generalized and unattributed statements could be seen as potentially libelous and can be removed from the article without discussion in accordance with WP:BLP. SSS108 ^talk-email 16:19, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And the determined rationalist can explain them away (there are many books whihc set out to do juat that). Moreover, we do not have contemporaneous reports of these figures claiming to do these things. And those were simpler times. What we have with SSB, however, is contemporaneous claims of physical impossibilities, where the means to test such claims exist and have been offered, and a steadfast refusal to undergo such tests. Of course in the Bible (to quote the one I know best) we have "do not put the Lord your God to the test", but that is not incompatible with an allegorical interpretation. In the case of SSB no allegorical interpretation is on offer. Also I am suggesting that the lead should say "Sathya Sai Baba is a fraud and a charlatan". I am saying that in order to reflect the dominant world-view, the claims of "miracles" should be cast in a sceptical light and the many valid criticisms fairly represented. All of whihc is somethign of a tangent from point A, which was that we shouldn't link to offsite copyright violations. Guy 17:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Guy, okay, let's get back on track. I happen to agree with you regarding possible copyright violations (although many sites apparently can link to newspaper articles under 'fair use'). Talk to Pjacobi about "offsite copyright violations" on the Sathya Sai Baba talk page. He is currently working on the references section and links. However, you can be certain that Andries will not agree with you. So you better be prepared for a fight and be prepared to site Wikipedia policy because that is exactly what Andries is going to ask for. Thanks. SSS108 ^talk-email 18:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was pretty confident you would agree on that, from your past history (which is impressive). Linking to a newspaper article is fine, because we are linking to the copyright holder. And you'll see form my history that I am not averse to a fight where it is necessary. However: if Andries has a site which is authoritative, then we need to think carefully about whether we should link to it. The keyword being authority: if reliable sources have quoted or cited the site, then it's reasonable to consider it authoritative. I'll happily accept your word on whether or not that is the case. Guy 22:33, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Did you call me a troll

In your defense of Arbusto and his crusade against Vivaldi did you call me a troll or were you referring to something else?Bagginator 09:58, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't call anybody in particular a troll, I said that Arbustoo had been vigorously trolled in the past, which is undeniably true. Also, it's not a "defense of Arbustoo and his crusade against Vivaldi" since (a) I quite plainly state that I think that both sides have at least some merit and (b) unlike Vivaldi, I don't believe that Arbustoo is personalising it to the extent of a crusade. Is this question an indication that you feel uneasy about some of your past comments? Guy 08:47, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for clearing that up.Bagginator 09:58, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. Guy 10:00, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Note to self

Possible merge of Henry Willis and Henry Willis & Sons; also possible merge of Church of St. Mary the Virgin, Ewell and Organ of St. Mary the Virgin, Ewell. Both subjects indivisible and ocntain significant redundancy. Guy 14:20, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Question

Is the boldfaced "moving house" header atop this page still in force, or did you just forget to remove it? Newyorkbrad 17:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ah yes, thank you. I have been fitting fire doors to my garage today :-) Guy 19:47, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:ChoralWiki

I fixed your request on Template:ChoralWiki just to let you know. —Jared Hunt September 10, 2006, 20:17 (UTC)

Oh great, thanks. Guy 20:34, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

United Kingdom accreditation

If you're feeling up to the task, maybe you can give this article on accreditation groups a UK perspective? Arbusto 01:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea. I'll do some reading around in the next couple of days. Guy 08:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Jason Fortuny on deletion review

I have asked for a deletion review of Jason Fortuny. Since you closed the deletion discussion for (or speedy-deleted) this article, your reasons on how or why you did so will be greatly appreciated in the above review. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ (AMA) 18:04, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 422: / Line 422: @@
 : And the determined rationalist can explain them away (there are many books whihc set out to do juat that).  Moreover, we do not have contemporaneous reports of these figures claiming to do these things.  And those were simpler times.  What we have with SSB, however, is ''contemporaneous'' claims of physical impossibilities, where the means to test such claims exist and have been offered, and a steadfast refusal to undergo such tests.  Of course in the Bible (to quote the one I know best) we have "do not put the Lord your God to the test", but that is not incompatible with an allegorical interpretation.  In the case of SSB no allegorical interpretation is on offer.  Also I am suggesting that the lead should say "Sathya Sai Baba is a fraud and a charlatan".  I ''am'' saying that in order to reflect the dominant world-view, the claims of "miracles" should be cast in a sceptical light and the many valid criticisms fairly represented.  All of whihc is somethign of a tangent from point A, which was that we shouldn't link to offsite copyright violations.  <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> 17:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 Guy, okay, let's get back on track. I happen to agree with you regarding possible copyright violations (although many sites apparently can link to newspaper articles under 'fair use'). Talk to Pjacobi about ''"offsite copyright violations"'' on the [[Sathya Sai Baba]] talk page. He is currently working on the references section and links. However, you can be certain that Andries will not agree with you. So you better be prepared for a fight and be prepared to site Wikipedia policy because that is exactly what Andries is going to ask for. Thanks. [[User:SSS108|SSS108]] <sup>[[User talk:SSS108|talk]]-[[Special:Emailuser/SSS108|email]]</sup> 18:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
+:: I was pretty confident you would agree on that, from your past history (which is impressive).  Linking to a newspaper article is fine, because we are linking ''to the copyright holder''.  And you'll see form ''my'' history that I am not averse to a fight where it is necessary.  However: if Andries has a site which ''is'' authoritative, then we need to think carefully about whether we should link to it.  The keyword being authority: if reliable sources have quoted or cited the site, then it's reasonable to consider it authoritative.  I'll happily accept your word on whether or not that is the case. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> 22:33, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 ==Did you call me a troll==

Revision as of 22:33, 11 September 2006

Evolutionary musicology merger

Chris Robertson article

RFA thanks

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Support

Countries

Why did you move Bowser?

More fake med schools on wikipedia

Long-Overdue RfA Thanks from Alphachimp

Neologism

Gastrich

RfA

Clary

Jason Gastrich

Bowsers and stuff

BenH back with another sock

Tallest structures - "Paris area"

Question

Lostpedia Deleted?

Personal attacks.

RfC closures

Ralbot

Why did you block me when I did not violate WP:3RR?

Awbrey's projects

review of process request

Moves of RC by country

List of CRM vendors

Shady Side Academy

Broken Hearts On Ice

Question...

Bisexual erasure

Your statement in the Vivaldi RfAr

Londheart/Etaonsh

"LBU is not accredited to award doctorates"

Sources

Did you call me a troll

Note to self

Question

Template:ChoralWiki

United Kingdom accreditation

Jason Fortuny on deletion review

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