User talk:Osli73

Welcome all! Please feel free to leave comments on my Talk page, especially since I edit a lot of very controversial and sensitive articles. First, though, a couple of guidelines which I would appreciate if you could read through first:

1. Stay civil
2. If you are responding to a comment made by me, please do so where I made it
3. Please sign your entries

Ghegs and Tosks

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! 

Additionally, I noticed your questions in Kosovo war talk page, and for the sake of having others read through it, I will post my opinion there. Thanks for showing interest. Ilir pz 20:20, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

There are two major dialect groups, the Ghegs, to the north of the Shkumbin River, and the Tosks, to the south. Kosovar Albanians are Ghegs. The Ghegs, who make up two-thirds of Albanians, are less intermarried with non-Albanians than the Tosks, who throughout history were more often subjected to foreign rule and other foreign influences. In the past, the Ghegs were organized in clans and the Tosks in a semifeudal society. Before World War II the Ghegs dominated Albanian politics, but after the war many Tosks came to power because the new Communist government drew most of its support from Tosks

It loocks that is not dialect? the Ghegs were organized in clans and the Tosks in a semifeudal society or you meam the north and west beacose the line at Shkumbim is not a strict line. Only a know that in north Albanian (Montenegro, Kosovo) was organisedit in clans, but in Macedonien (they are gege too) hey was ogranisedet not in clans? The gege dialec hase more spoked wariants nothing eles. You can not seperet in gege and tosk the cultur, politic ... the only differe is that the tosk dialect is more uninificat that gege dialect nothing eles. The officel langege is not tosk but, beacose that tosk dialect was more unificatet they have taket the sistem from tosk dialect.

Summaries and "minor edits"

Please don't make use of misleading edit summaries, and inappropriate use of the "minor edit" box, especially on articles as well-known to be controversial as Kosovo. Alai 02:08, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Alanians

This [1] is your personal view (opinion) and has nothing to do with Enciklopedi.--Hipi Zhdripi 03:22, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Witch is the alfabet (leters) of Tosks dialect? (see tradicional greece and arvanitas)--Hipi Zhdripi 03:26, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Hipi, I've sourced this information from The Encyclopeda Britannica [2] the Albanian site Albinfo.com [3] and the Minnesota State University site (emuseum) on world cultures [4]. What is it you object to?Osli73 07:38, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Kosovo

I noticed you expressed your opinion about the definition of Kosovo's status, in Kosovo page. Calling it a province in the central Balkans describes best what its situation is. One, it is descriptive, it shows its status and location in the region. Two, it does not predict its status. It might be easy just like that for you to call it a province of Serbia, but to someone it might be offensive...due to many many reasons, which you may know as well. Regards, ilir_pz 08:37, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, I realize that the future status of Kosovo is yet to be determined. However, what I wanted to describe in the Kosovo article is its de facto current status. Kosovo is a province of Serbia, although under UN administration. Negotiations about its status are ongoing. If it might be offensive to some to state the obvious doesn't seem to be pertinent. Just saying that it's "a province in the cental Balkans" doesn't answer the question, "province of what". Better to say it like it is. There's no politics in that.Osli73 12:29, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Does it have to be "of something" ? Kosovo according to its constitutional framework is a compact entity under UN administration. In my travellign docouments, in the part where country should be specified it says "territory under interim UN administration". Where is the problem with my definition? ilir_pz 13:08, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to browse throug Constitutional Framework and tell me where it says that Kosovo is a part of Serbia? I will cite in the document point 1.1. "1.1 Kosovo is an entity under interim international administration which, with its people, has unique historical, legal, cultural and linguistic attributes." This document is approved by all the international community, and is the document with the highest value there. ilir_pz 13:12, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, internationally and by the UN, Kosovo is recognized as an autonomous province of Serbia administered by the UN. Resolution 1244 defines Kosovo as a part of Yugoslavia, of which Serbia is the internationally recognized successor state. For example, consider the wording of this [5] Security Council press release on Kosovo. It reads "....Kosovo (Serbia and Montenegro)". In western media Kosovo is also described as a province of Serbia run by the UN. I don't see why this is so controversial for you.

Just because the Kosovo Albanian provisional government has produced a Constitutional Framework and issued travel documents which don't mention Serbia/Yugoslavia doensn't change the fact.

Finally, I sincerely hope Kosovo is granted independence by the end of the year. However, I don't believe in bending the truth for the sake of politics. As you seem to want to do.Osli73 14:06, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The constitutional framework and travel documents were prepared by the UN Mission in Kosovo, UNMIK, Osli73. You do not know even this? ilir_pz 22:23, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

You are making me cite the constitutional framework now: "CONSTITUTIONAL FRAMEWORK FOR PROVISIONAL SELF-GOVERNMENT UNMIK/REG/2001/9 - 15 May 2001 " and the travel documents UNMIK issued documents. What part of this was prepared by the Kosovo's government (which by the way is not only Albanian)ilir_pz 22:26, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, no, I'm not familiar with the travel documents issued by UNMIK, which may not explicitly state that Kosovo is officially a part of Serbia. UNMIK may have had their reasons for this. However, in all international organizations (or weight), such as the IMF, World Bank, the UN, WTO, etc, Kosovo is treated as a part of Serbia. Look at the map of the Balkans in any atlas (western, reputable) issued in western Europe and you will see Kosovo identified as a province of Serbia. Saying something else, because you want it to be so, is just silly.Osli73 07:24, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Are you calling me silly because I cite UN documents, which I even quoted for you? That is nice of you. Remember, I did not compile those documents, no matter what the reasons were behind them.ilir_pz 11:00, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Kosovo is identified as a part of Serbia in just about any map you can find. [[6]] The UN resolution 1244 identifies it as part of Yugoslavia (of which Serbia is the successor state). Finally, we can all agree that Kosovo is seeking independence. Obviously it is seeking independence from Serbia. Why is this so controversial?

Heissan, You still did not answer what was silly in my wording above. Kosovo is seeking formal recognition of its de-facto status, and is negotiating with the international community to ratify that. The latter even said that with or without Serbian government's consent. It is clear as a crystal. ilir_pz 21:18, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

You still use the word silly too much as in the last example [7] and even send threats that you intend to do something to let those "who don't accept the facts (you think are ok) get upset.". Consider discussing more. Shows more maturity. Then changing what YOU think is correct, and intentionally attempt to upset people. It is more polite to discuss. ilir_pz 08:25, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, I'm not trying to intentionally upset you (or anyone else). However, I'm saying that if you (or others) are upset by facts (recognized by all foreign governments) which are not in line with your POV, then this is lamentable, but doesn't change anything.Osli73 10:12, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Here, yet again, I tell you which facts are recognized by foreign government, and are the most imporant documents in Kosovo, 1244 resolution and its constitutional framework. You don't want to browse through them, do you? The compromise can be found in the resolution 1244, where it is clearly stated that Kosovo will be formally considered as a part of FRY, and the UN interim admin there will lead the process to define its status (hint: there is no status until then). Osli73, referring to non-partisan organisations resarch groups and several old maps is trying to impose his NPOV on an article, and at the same time refusing to quote the documents with the highest importance in Kosovo, 1244 Resolution and Kosovo's [www.unmikonline.org/constframework.htm Constitutional Framework]. Ignoring these two important documents, and instead referring to sites of convenience to NPOV push is not appreciated in Wikipedia. Furthermore, no need to accuse Kosovar Albanian wikipedians, for inisting in these internationally recognized, and most important documents valid in Kosovo as of now. Why do you refuse to consider these two documents? Regards, ilir_pz 13:49, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, UNSCR 1244 confirmed that Kosovo was to remain a part of FRY. As such, it was a province of Serbia. When FRY was replaced by SCG Kosovo continued being a province of Serbia. And when SCG break up and each republic goes it alone, Kosovo will remain a province of Serbia.¨

Telling Wikipedia's readers that Kosovo is a part of FRY/SCG rather than a province of Serbia is comparable to describing Catalonia as a part of the EU and not mentioning anything about it being a province of Spain. Osli73 14:12, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I am just amazed at your pushy NPOV, and intensive research done, and looking at your edits, maybe more than 80% are only related to Kosovo, and what?!? ONLY to that part, "Kosovo is a part of Serbia" sentence. As much as suspicious, I am also surprised why would someone being (I must say allegedly) Swedish, care so much. Never mind, good luck with your pushy edits. Not going to tell you you are wrong either, it is up to you to decide what sources you want to use, and how you interprete them. Hope they serve your aim well. Not going to discuss this issue with you further. ilir_pz 14:17, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Ilir,

1. I realize you feel that the Kosovo article should be left to the Kosovar Albanians and the Serbs. I feel this would be the worst solution, since this turns the articles into tools for pushing (nationalist) political views.

2. Why do you not believe I am Swedish? Because I'm interested in a issue of great importance for Europe, the continent where I live? I'm Swedish, my parents are Swedish and my ancestors are Swedish, so please stop implying that I'm some kind of under cover Serb just because I don't agree with you.

3. Denying that Kosovo is a province of Serbia is an example of how Wikipedia is used to push political views rather than facts. That's why I'm interested. How come it's so important for you to deny that Kosovo is a province of Serbia? Osli73 14:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I disagree fully with your first point. Second point is doubtful to me, as you seem to be far pushy from a neutral editor. Sorry if that is not the case, it just gives a wrong impression. I always appreciated non-Balkans editors, helping bring neutrality (not insisting on a single point, which clearly is controversial and feeds nationalistic feelings). With third point, I disagree fully again. It is important to me to cite documents, not keep the side of any. If I were to keep my side and push it in Wikipedia, I would say Kosovo is independent, as its people voted for it more than a decade ago. But that is not my mission here. ~You seem to misinterprete my intentions very well. ilir_pz 15:08, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, firstly, do you mean to say that you think the ex Yugo pages should be left to the ex Yugos?

Second point, I'm pushy because after spending a year in Poland with students from all over Eastern (and Western) Europe I'm allergic to the petty nationalism which is is so rife throughout E Europe (never ending listing of atrocities and wrongs committed against the own ethnic group while downplaying those committed against other; claiming that ones own ethnic group somehow has exclusive rights to "ancient homelands"; defining yourself as European and your neighbours as less European; a generally just arguing about the past instead of looking towards the future). So, sorry if things like trying to (in my mind) twist the status of Kosovo to fit ones own political views gets me going. I just think it would be so much more mature if Kosovar Albanians could write "Kosovo is technically still a province of Serbia, although currently under UN administration" and if Serbs could say "ongoing discussion on the future status of Kosovo are likely to result in conditional independence". Why not try to let a Serb write on Serbian crimes against Albanians while you write about Kosovo Albanian crimes against Serbs? Osli73 21:02, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

You obviously do not read my messages fully. I said just above "I always appreciated non-Balkans editors". How clearer can I say it. You can have your reasons for showing interest in exactly in the Kosovo article, but that does not justify you to be pushy. Being pushy is not a good thing in general, but especially not in Wikipedia, where you cannot really control that, and will just inspire a revert war...as it happened recently. Instead learn to agree to disagree, it helps. I know what would have been more mature, but do not ask an Albanian to say they are living in a province of Serbia. Having in mind what we went through several decades, it is not polite of you to ask them to say that. About the part where Serbs should be mature about, well, the term here is "realistic", as after all that happened they do not have to be mature to understand that Kosovo will become independent. On your last question, I really do not know why you ask me that? When did I prevent someone from writing any kind of crimes, as long as they are backed by credible sources? can you give me one example, and THEN ask me that question.Thank you, ilir_pz 10:08, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Presidents of Kosovo

I am not sure presidents from 1989 to 1999 should be added as presidents. During that time apartheid existed in Kosovo, so they were not legitimate presidents. Besides, they were not called presidents, but something like "the head of the committee" or something. The first time Kosovo had a president was after 1999, with Ibrahim Rugova being the first. ilir_pz 10:04, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

For once, I agree with you. However, which aparheid are you referring to?Osli73 10:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Eversince Milosevic took over the control over Kosovo, abolished its autonomy, and installed a brutal military regime, until ending that in the most brutal way in 1999. That cannot be described in any other word. About the presidents, you might want to reconsider then. ilir_pz 10:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I've taken out the pre-1999 presidents. To me Kosovar society seems just as segregated and marred by intercomunal violence as before. Just that the boot is on the other foot. If foreign soldiers weren't keeping order, things would definately be back to the same old ways. Don't you think?Osli73 08:35, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The foreign soldiers need to stay for some time, I agree, as there is a wide gap, and a lot of mistrust in each other between communities. And no, this is not due to the war in 1999. The mistrust has been building up for centuries, and generations. You cannot expect miracles in 7 years, can you? You still hear messages of hatred of Polish for Germans, or Dutch or French jokes about Germans...and what? the war ended 60 years ago. Time will heal wounds, but not as fast as some foreigners want it to happen. ilir_pz 09:00, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

If Albanians and Serbs could stick to just making jokes about each other (like people do in W Europe) that would be a huge improvement. But, you're right, it's not likely to happen that fast. Certainly not after 7 years. However, the 'healing process' isn't likely to go any faster by both sides constantly listing the atrocities and wrongs committed by the other. But I guess it is a question of mentality that is very difficult to change. That's why I think it's a good idea for these two people to live apart in their own separate countries, just like CG and Serbia.

Let us hope the time of "just making jokes" is close. But listing atrocities is actual right now, as there are thousands missing, and wounds are far from being healed. Justice should be provided to innocent victims. Only then can the real healing, or better to put it "forgiving but not forgetting" process. The mentality to change, that will take much longer. Hopefully the new generations will one day, as the old ones still live in myths. That is is a good idea for Kosovo to be independent, we knew that a long time ago. But division in ethnic lines, besides being impossible as Sers do not live in a compact area in Kosovo, it may also have a chain effect. At least the Contact Group does not support this idea at all. Were you thinking smth like this when saying "these two people to live apart" ?ilir_pz 09:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh and when you edit Kosovo article please make sure you do not blank out major parts of the text, like you did in your last revert, you took off Economy, Demographics and some parts on other culture heritage damaged during the war in Kosovo. It can happen, but pay more attention next time. Thanks in advance, ilir_pz 09:22, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Can you at least discuss why you are removing external links from Kosovo war article? trying to heal the hatred or...? Explanation, in the comments line, or in the talk page is always appreciated, to justify your edits. ilir_pz 13:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, (1) there were too many links to be genuinely useful; (2) some were a bit too specific and (3) a lot of them were quite partisan and more about POV pushing. I understand the logic for discussing big changes, but not for making corrections or general clean-up. Otherwise you'll end up with very long but very poorly edited articles.Osli73 13:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The Kosovo war article is highley slanted towards Serbs, and will have to change soon.Ferick 17:39, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Template:Kosovo

Once you reach an agreement on the wording of the intro for the Kosovo article, make sure this is implemented too for the template above. I will unwatch the article from now on. Good luck with your mediation attempt (I have been there before). Regards, E Asterion ^{u talking to me?} 22:55, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, once (if ever) we agree to a wording I'll try to implement it on other Kosovo/Serbia related articles as well. I'm quite a new on Wikipedia and must say it doesn't feel good to have to compromise about the facts (especially with people who are editing pages where they openly state that they have a very specific political agenda/opinion). Osli73 23:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I know the feeling. I have practically given up on the matter myself. This is even more worrying when you compare it with any other respectable encyclopaedia, as I quoted in the Talk:Kosovo page. Have a nice day, E Asterion ^{u talking to me?} 09:44, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Kosovo Vote

Dear Osli73, I have had contact with User:Ilir pz and he has agreed to have a vote on the introduction of the Kosovo article (and the Template: Kosovo description. The exact terms still have to be agreed, but I suggested (and he agreed) that any introduction should at least include the following: 1) It should state that Kosovo is administered by the UN, 2) it should state Kosovo is part of a larger union/country (either Serbia, SCG or FRY) and 3) it should state that Kosovo will most likely become indepedent in the near future. If this is ok with you, do you think you and User: Asterion can come up with a version of the introduction to the article in a couple of days to include in the vote? Any other comments are ofcourse also more then welcome. Let me know your opinion on this matter, best regards Cpt. Morgan 12:43, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Reinoutr, in principle I'm against voting about facts (e.g. let's have a vote on Creationism vs Darwin). In addition, I don't see that it should be a controversial issue, "Kosovo is, technically, a province of Serbia, presently administered by the UN (on the basis of under SCR 1244)."

Ilir has one interpretation of UNSCR 1244 (that Kosovo is part of FRY and has nothing to do with Serbia, since it's not mentioned in the text), everyone else, including the US State Department, CIA Factbook, EU Commission, United Nationa, Encyclopedia Britannica, BBC, Encarta and Wikipedia interpret UNSCR 1244 as saying that Kosovo is a province of Serbia (which at the time was one of the constituent parts of FRY but is, soon, an independent country).

If the majority vote for a formulation denying that Kosovo is a province of/in Serbia I will accept it, but I can't respect it.Osli73 19:08, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion we are not voting about facts, but about how to formulate them. It is evident that the results with be dissappointing for some. We should find some way out of this deadlock, however. The current article on Kosovo is already outdated (dissolvement of SCR is not included), so we should find a way to reach a solution here. If you see another way, let me know, but I am afraid that by only discussion we will never reach a compromise here. So the alternatives are voting, or the rigorous, unfavorable way of arbitration. Also, Ilir also agreed that the subheading politics of the article will be changed to have a more extensive description, which can include both views. This is only about the introductory paragraph. Cpt. Morgan 19:49, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Cpt. Morgan, I believe that this is one of the reasons why Wikipedia sometimes comes out badly compared to traditional encyclopedias - compromises or even all out capitulations are made to people/groups using Wikipedia to push their own political agendas or views.

I realize that, for his own political reasons, Ilir and a lot of other Kosovar Albanians do not want to be associated with Serbia and would prefer to see it as being in a legal limbo following the dissolution of FRY. I've already given the arguments and evidence for why I believe it is 100% clear and undisputed that Kosovo is, technically, a province of Serbia. However, my suggestion for a compromise is:

"Kosovo is, technically, a province in Serbia. However, since 1999 it is administered by the United Nations (based on Security Council Resolution 1244)."

If someone wishes, we can add, after SCR 1244: "..., referring to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia)." Notice that I suggest "in" rather than "of", implying geographical location rather than sovereignty. That should placate those who wish to downplay the connection with Serbia.

Other than that I support having a separate section discussing the different views/interpretations of the current status of the province. Please see the Tibet article as an example. Osli73 20:45, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Osly, as I have stated before I do understand your concerns and there is no need to convince me with the arguments. I have no opinion on the matter and I am only trying to resolve this dispute. The link to Tibet is interesting, because there a similar dispute is at hand. With regard to Wikipedia, reaching consensus on a topic is an official guideline and indeed means some articles will be compromises between different versions. It does not necessarily make Wikipedia worse than other encyclopedias, but it does make it different. With regard to Kosovo, I would like to know if you will respect (meaning you will not revert) a version reached by a supermajority in a poll and if so, if you are interested in supplying (together with User: Asterion) one of the two options to choose from? If you will not respect a poll, I will refrain from setting it up, because there will be no use in doing it. If you will respect a solution, but have no interest in setting up the poll with us, Asterion will supply the version alone. Let me know how you feel, Cpt. Morgan 21:16, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

A new version was proposed by an Adminstrator (TheTom) on the Kosovo talk page, perhaps you can have a look? Cpt. Morgan 05:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Reinoutr, I will respect the outcome in the sense that I will not revert it. Yes. Osli73 10:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Osli, What do you think of this? (Feel free to edit it, it is mainly based on your suggestion but I played a little with it)

Kosovo (Albanian: Kosovë/Kosova, Serbian: Косово и Метохија/Kosovo i Metohija) is an autonomous province in southern Serbia. By the UN Security Council Resolution 1244 (adopted in 1999), it was placed under United Nations temporary administration. Currently the province is run independently of Belgrade by its Provisional Institutions of Self-Government and the UN Interim Administrative Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK). Security in Kosovo is maintained by the NATO-led Kosovo Force (KFOR) and the Kosovo Police Service.

Talks on the future status of Kosovo started in Vienna on February 20 2006, between the Kosovo institutions' negotiating team, and the government of Serbia. The future of the province is set to be determined by the end of 2006.

Thanks, E Asterion ^{u talking to me?} 07:16, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Asterion, I think it covers just about all the bases. I have two comments:

• it might be worthwhile to include some kind of reference as to how Kosovo came to be run by the UN (Kosovo war or NATO occupation in 1999), otherwise an unknowledgeable reader might not understand the context of the UN administration
• Kosovo is run first and foremost by UNMIK, which in turn has devolved certain powers to the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government.

This is my alternative suggestion:

Kosovo (Albanian: Kosovë/Kosova, Serbian: Косово и Метохија/Kosovo i Metohija) is an autonomous province in southern Serbia. Following occupation by NATO forces in 1999 Kosovo was placed under United Nations temporary administration (UN Security Council Resolution 1244). Although it legally remains a part of Serbia, it is in fact run independently of Belgrade by the UN Interim Administrative Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK) and its Provisional Institutions of Self-Government. Security in Kosovo is maintained by the NATO-led Kosovo Force (KFOR) and the Kosovo Police Service.

Talks on the future status of Kosovo started in Vienna on February 20 2006, between the Kosovo institutions' negotiating team, and the government of Serbia. The future of the province is set to be determined by the end of 2006.

Osli73 08:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree to all your changes but I would change the text to read "Following the Kosovo War in 1999, Kosovo...". E Asterion ^{u talking to me?} 08:43, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Asterion, I agree with your proposed change in wording. So, are we happy with the following suggested wording:

Kosovo (Albanian: Kosovë/Kosova, Serbian: Косово и Метохија/Kosovo i Metohija) is an autonomous province in southern Serbia. Following the Kosovo War in 1999 Kosovo was placed under United Nations temporary administration (UN Security Council Resolution 1244). Although it legally remains a part of Serbia, it is in fact run independently of Belgrade by the UN Interim Administrative Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK) and the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government. Security in Kosovo is maintained by the NATO-led Kosovo Force (KFOR) and the Kosovo Police Service.

Talks on the future status of Kosovo started in Vienna on February 20 2006, between the Kosovo institutions' negotiating team, and the government of Serbia. The future of the province is set to be determined by the end of 2006.

If you're happy with this version, can you take it to the peson running the vote? Osli73 11:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

That's fine with me. I will do. Thanks a lot, E Asterion ^{u talking to me?} 12:44, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Naser Orić

User:Live Forever has reported you for a violation of wikipedias Three revert rule on the above-mentioned page. Please familiarise yourself with that rule and ensure you comply with it at all times. This is just a polite reminder of the rule, but further transgressions may result in your account being blocked. Please discuss disagreements on the talk page rather than edit-warring over them. Kcordina ^Talk 08:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

In fact it is User:Live Forever which is reverting the article instead of contributing to it. I have invited him/her to discuss the contents and the wording of the article. I'm open for new information and sources. Instead User:Live Forever has claimed it is all propaganda (without supplying and sources) and deleted it all. I'm trying to be constructive, User:Live Forever is not. I'm sorry if I feel a need to repair his/her vandalism. Osli73 11:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[Two common rules of courtesy: (1) please direct questions or comments to me, don't make general comments here; (2) please sign any comments on this talk page]Osli73 07:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

You wrote to me: “Please don't make general statements on my talk page, direct questions or comments to me.” According to the rules I can both comment and ask questions. You do not need to answer since I will not be activ here at Wikipedia. --Noah30 16:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Comments - yes; questions - yes; insults - no. Hipi, I see that you've been banned before. I guess this is the reason why. Please, stay civil and curteous.Osli73 10:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I have never been banned here. I have been here for only two weeks. Now you are insulting me...--Noah30 16:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Bosniak page move

Hi Osli73. Could you please go here and write what you think about moving the page "Bosniaks" to "Bosniak people". Most other articles about ethnic groups follow that convention so I feel like it'd be a good move to make. Live Forever 18:46, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Kosovo

Dear Osli, regarding the discussions we had over the past few weeks and in view of the compromises that we tried to make, I would like to ask you one final time if perhaps you can agree with the current article version of the introduction of Kosovo. There certainly are things you would like to see changed, but you have to ask yourself if they are worth starting another revert war over. Alternatively, a vote or other solution might lead to an introduction that is even further away from what you would like it to be. Looking back at the discussions and compromises I must say that the current version is very close to a good compromise. This article is currently one of the articles on Wikipedia that has been protected for the longest time (Wikipedia:List of protected pages) and even was mentioned on some websites as an example related to the recent NY Times article[8]. Also, people have been wanting to add other information to this articles a number of times (See the talk archive). So, look at the article with a cool head, think of all the discussions and arguments you've heard and if you think we could lift the block without a revert war starting again, please let me know.

P.S. This message was posted at the pages of all people involved that are still active on Wikipedia. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 15:40, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr), I am not happy with the current wording of the introduction. I have been willing to go with a number of the compromise versions put forward and have worked with several other editors to put forward suggestions. I have asked several times for us to go ahead either with a vote or with one of the compromise versions.

Please see the latest compromise version put forward by ChrisO. In short, it focuses less on legal issues and UNSC resolutions and more on geography and population. I made som small adjustments to it (wording). Why not just go with this and if some editors are unhappy with this because it runs counter to their political beliefs, then that is unfortunate.

The only solution is to have a proper vote (finite time span, etc.) on this compromise version. What do you think about (1) the version proposed by ChrisO and (2) having a vote on it?Osli73 08:19, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Osli, I certainly would like to see this protection ended. The version by ChrisO sounds good to me. Also your adaption is mostly fine, except that you removed the other province of Serbia. It kinda liked that part of ChrisO's version, because it puts the relation between Kosovo and Serbia in a broader perspective. Perhaps you are willing to put that back? A vote could be a final way out of this, but any compromise is always preferred in my opinion. Especially since we now have a fresh version proposed. I suggest you also ask ChrisO's opinion on this matter. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 09:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Reinoutr, I have nothing against putting back the reference to Vojvodina (the other province). I just thought

1. it could be sensitive (especially to some Kosovar Albanians) to compare the status of Kosovo to that of Vojvodina and
2. that it didn't really add any information about Kosovo as such (as opposed to the Republic of Serbia).

However, as I said, I'm fine with keeping it in if it will help move the process forward (to unprotecting the article). Osli73 12:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Osli, thanks for putting it back. Maybe you are right that it is a sensitive issue, so in that case we would be better off without it. But I liked it in the sense that it made the first sentence more descriptive and detailed. Also, it keeps the text closer to the fresh version by ChrisO, hopefully that helps a bit in keeping people cool about this issue. But lets see what comments arise from the other parties on this last version (although they have been very quiet lately). I am afraid this might still take a while to get completed. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr)

Wonderful

"Serbs think they are unfairly picked on by the West; Croats feel they are unfairly portrayed as Neo-Nazis; Bosniaks continue to cultivate their victim status from the Bosnian War and Kosovar Albanians can't think straight whenever they hear the word "Serb"."

I one sentence you have succsessfully portrayed the term "Balkanization". --HolyRomanEmperor 15:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

So simply said - yet so horrific in truth. --HolyRomanEmperor 13:57, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Svar angeånde Kosovo

Hej Osli73, desamma måste jag säga. Blev glatt överraskad när jag såg att du också kom från Sverige och dessutom precis som jag norr om Stockholm. :) Vilken förort är du ifrån? Jag är ifrån Märsta. Som sagt kul att du oxå intresserar dig för Balkan. Har du läst något på universitet rörande ämnet? Ja tyvärr har jag kämpat länge mot Ilir och hans allierade för att hålla Kosovo sidan desstomer neutral. Du anar inte vilket jobb jag hade det i början då sidan var i ett katastrofalt underhåll och jag var ensam om att försöka driva den framåt från den pro-albanska stagnation den hamnat i. Kul att fler angagerar sig nu och jag är glad att vi är flera nu som orkar beskyddda den. Det är klart att den ska respekteras. Jag anser mig relativt passiv på Kosovo sidan numera men jag angagerar mig så mycket jag kan när jag ser att det spårar ur. Finns det flera områden angående Balkan som du angagerar dig i? Litany 16:20, 27 Juen 2006 (UTC)

---

Efter så mycket hyckleri och halvsanningar(på denna del av hemsidan) ang. Kosovo vill jag göra en lång historia kort: Det enda jag har att säga till Ilir&Co är att enligt hans ironiska definitioner vad som bör kallas vad och vad inte...vad som är rätt och vad inte...vill man följa den så kan man med ett gott samvete påstå att Skåne är en provins i Scandinavien, Skåne är inte en del av Sverige, Skåne har rätt till självständighet och utträde från landet Sverige. Skåningar pratar inte Skånska, dom pratar Malmöitiska med små inluenser från Lunditiska och Ystaditiska...Skåningar var först på plats i Sverige och med den rätten så kan dom kasta ut alla utom sig själva, naturligtvis;-)..Heja Skåne.....heja Skåne..... Om inte detta påstående är hyckleri så är jag nog inte den jag är...;-)...Sug på den karamellen Ilir&Co..:-) --Miromiro 22:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Ta EJ bort denna inlägg, men ni får gärna översätta den till engelska. Tack!

Mediation time on Kosovo

I don't think we're getting anywhere with the Kosovo introduction, particularly since Ferick has openly rejected WP:NPOV and is now refusing to discuss sources. Accordingly, I've submitted a request for mediation. Please indicate on that page whether you consent to having the matter mediated. -- ChrisO 09:40, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

About massacre

Lazar, yes, I too feel the article is a bit partisan. However, given the nature of the event it describes, that can be forgiven. Especially since it is a very well sourced and documented article. As for the Christmans Day massacres and other background stuff, I think that could go in a specific background section (but with careful review of sources).Osli73 12:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

What do you really mean? Do you mean is it too much to describe a human rights violation at a very high degree? What do you think about Armenian Genocide then?(cantikadam 08:55, 15 July 2006 (UTC))

Balkan Update

Very well spotted! That's Ferick's website, no doubt about it; the description is the same as on his Wikipedia user page. -- ChrisO 23:43, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

STOP VANDALISING SREBRENICA GENOCIDE ARTICLE

Stop vandalizing Srebrenica Genocide article. Stop removinig factual elements of cases and substituting them with already discredited Serbian sources. I've warned you in the past, this is the last warning. --Bosniak 19:26, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Bosniak, you sound quite hysterical. Please let me know what you are referring to and maybe I could understand. I have removed an unsourced section and changed the placement in the article of another. If this is such a sensitive topic for you that you cannot have a civil discussion with differing opinions on how the matter should be presented then maybe you should focus on other topics instead.Osli73 22:17, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Leave the article alone. You maybe can't know what is like situation here, because you live... you have everything. But I who live in Bosnia can still all the time hear how Bosniaks killed themselves in Markale, how Srebrenica is no big deal... as they only slauthered Turks, and however that 8000 is hey big number... 3000 is small. 3000 is small? I can still hear and read how Bosniaks destroyed Star Most. Why?! What is revisionism?! What the hell is it? You probably don't know Serbian language, but why in the hell they write that there was about 2800, maximum 5000 victims, and it is... you know normal. Serbian version of Srebrenica. Tell me, what do you know about Srebrenica?! About Bosnia. You are safe there, here we can still hear how we will be slauthered in future, and how Srebrenica will be repeated. --HarisM 23:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

HarisM (and others), again, I realize this is a sensitive topic for many people. I don't deny that some 8,000 peoople were murdered in Srebrenica, that this was planned and carried out by the Bosnian Serb army/government or that there are those who, incorrectly, claim that all of this did not happen. In many ways the article is one of the best resources I've been able to find on the massacre. However, I do not agree with the politicized way in which some of the material is presented or with some of the conclusions/analyses which are made in the article (or alluded to). Osli73 00:22, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Final Notice to Osli73

You can agree or disagree, it's up to you. However, we will not let you post already discredited Serbian information and present it as a fact in Srebrenica Massacre article. Although I salute your decision not to deny Srebrenica genocide, I must condemn you for spoiling the article with moral relativism and already discredited Serbian sources (e.g. the number of Serbs killed, adventures of accussed concentration camp raper and Serb lobbyist Gen. Mackenzie, etc). --Bosniak 01:31, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Bosniak, you are hell bent on calling anyone who challenges your highly biased presentation and analysis of events as "vandalism" or "moral relativism". I get the feeling that you see the Srebrenica massacre as more of a political tool than a historical event. You choose to only present your numbers and dismiss any source or text which does not fit your view as "Serb propaganda". Please read my lengthy answer to Live Forever on the Talk page here.

And, no, Lewis MacKenzie was no "concentration camp raper" - as I explained/showed above to Dado, that was a smear campaign by the Bosnian government during the war. The Journal of Conflict Studies describes it:

Part of the propaganda war was a successful Bosnian government campaign to discredit MacKenzie personally (including stories that his wife was a Serb). The UN's response was to ignore such stories, rather than take action to refute them, and by June they had reached such a level that MacKenzie asked to be relieved as he could no longer function without risk to his troops, identified as "MacKenzie's men." In November 1992, coinciding with the Islamic Conference in Saudi Arabia, the Bosnian government claimed that MacKenzie had raped and murdered three or four Muslim girls obtained for him at a Serb concentration camp. By 1995, this story was being reported as regular visits by MacKenzie to a Serb camp brothel stocked with Muslim girls.

CheersOsli73 06:36, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Edit by 87.86.8.3

Can you please stop reverting changes on Kosovo. You are very subjective on this issue (very pro-serb) and you're not even from the region. Wikipedia needs to be kept neutral. and Osli73 sabotages the truth — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.86.8.3 (talk • contribs) 11:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, anonymous user:

1. I certainly believe that I try to portray a NPOV by (a) providing references for all data and (b) having a Fairness of tone, both explained in Wikipedia [9].
2. I'm not aware that there is any rule/recommendation that only people from the region are allowed to edit articles related to that region. In fact, it's my experience that "people from the region" are often not able to leave their emotions behind when editing Wikipedia. The Kosovo article is not the property of Kosovar Albanians (or Serbs for that matter).

Cheers Osli73 12:27, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Pro Serbia user- no question about it.

Osli73 is dead wrong

You stated that this statement is not in reference to the ICTY:

"By seeking to eliminate a part of the Bosnian Muslims, the Bosnian Serb forces committed genocide."

Yet, another time, I am proving you wrong, read here: http://www.un.org/icty/krstic/Appeal/judgement/krs-aj040419e.htm --Bosniak 20:55, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

No, I stated that the soure which was supplied was not the ICTY judgement. Now that you have found it, please enter it. Cheers, Osli73 18:16, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Ferick RfC

I've posted a user-conduct request for comments on Ferick following his latest bout of edit-warring - it's time to put an end to it. Please feel free to add your comments at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Ferick. -- ChrisO 01:13, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Care to comment?

There is a discussion on Roles of non-combatant State and non-State actors in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict talkpage about the inclusion of detail for Israel. I am of the view that Israel should be included but the detail is being continually removed by User:Tewfik.

Tewfik's argument is what he considers the illegality of Hezbollah under UN 1559. How this has a bearing on a balanced representation of aid to the combatants is never made clear. Tewfik has not removed recent requests of arms sales to Israel such as jet fuel and GBU-28's but removed the history of such arms shipments. I believe he is pushing the POV that aid to Israel is only in response to the current crisis or the illegality of Hezbollah under 1559. US aid to Israel is in fact a long standing agreement responsible for the size and makeup of the IDF. Without the aid they would not have a military capable of engaging in conflict. This is a question of balance in the article and if you can take a look and support my position (was working under 82.29.227.171) that would be great. RandomGalen 17:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Hello

I am not really that interested in the events concerning srebrenica, I think it is pretty much clear for the most of us what actually happend. However, I have deep respect for user Bosniak and his efforts which I value to be neutral. He's spent hours and hours on the srebrenica massacre article, providing critical info. The so-called "serbian casualties around srebrenica" are classified by the UN-tribunal as a pure myth, and to this lead also the motivation that "serbs only took revenge for what the Bosnians had done three years earlier". If you believe this is the truth then I suggest you create a webpage of your own, however the UN-tribunal has demented these myths and here on wikipedia we try to follow mainstream facts. Greetings Bosoni

Bosoni, yes, Bosniak may have spent many hours on the Srebrenica massacre article and in many ways it is a very good, well references article. I think noone is debating what happened. I certainly don't dispute it. The discussion is rather about how the facts are presented and what analysis is either made or implied. On these points (the last two) I feel that Bosniak presents a very one-sided picture. Take the example of the "Serbian casualties around Srebrenica". This is clearly pertinent to the article as it helps the reader to understand one possible motive for the viciousness of the massacre - revenge. However, for political reasons Bosniak (and, I believe, other Bosnian editors as well) is unwilling to include this information or this analysis (made by some of the sources I referenced). This article is not about "remembering those who gave their lives" or any such thing - it is about describing, in an encyclopedic way, what happened, why it happened and what consequences it has had. Cheers Osli73 08:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

3rr

hi osli, you've broken the wikipedia 3 revert rule on Srebrenica massacre. As you haven't yet been warned and apparently have no prior record with 3RRs, you'll get another chance. so consider this your warning. cheers --heah 03:12, 12 August 2006 (UTC)