Wikipedia talk:Ignore all rules

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Singular "rule" vs plural "rules"

The article text says, "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it." but the associated sound file says "If the rules prevent you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia's quality, ignore them.". Shouldn't we be consistant? Thomprod (talk) 17:01, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the audio version is outdated and should be rerecorded. —David Levy 19:06, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

i just wanted to say

i like how short this article is for how awesome it is

that is all Ytcracker (talk) 23:54, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

It's a powerful statement that I interpret as "help the site first, worry about (stepping over) rules later". --an odd name 00:50, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Demotion to guideline

I think that this page should only be a guideline, and NOT policy. Who's with me? Jonathan321 (talk) 23:14, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

This is the policy that set me free and convinced me that I could be productive here. It has a Zen-like simplicity that is typically hard to interpret until you finally "get it" - then it is utter simplicity. Misinterpretation of the policy sometimes causes problems, not the policy itself. And it is fundamental.

For those reasons, count me out. Franamax (talk) 23:31, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

It is not just a policy, it is the most important policy. I think it should be policy. Past discussions on this subject have supported it remaining policy too. Chillum 01:15, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Brevity.

This policy page is too short. Surely it must be longer - examples, for example? I only understand it from seing someone paraphrase it to - Use common sense. Also, can anyone see a particular point in time where this can come into play? That would be a useful addition. This article needs expanding. --82.46.179.208 (talk) 17:49, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, if you want long, take a walk back through this talk page and its archives :) You will find lengthy discussion on why exactly this policy is best kept to its stripped-down 12-word essential. Basically, if we include an example saying "this is where you would ignore all rules", someone will take the example as meaning "in this case, I should always ignore rules", which is not true. To aid in your understanding though, you can have a look at the linked essays, WP:WIARM and WP:UIAR.

As for a point in time where IAR comes into play, when your own understanding tells you it's time, it's time. Until then, watch how other people interpret the policy and how successful they are at doing so. Franamax (talk) 01:07, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

WIARM would produce that problem, but UIAR would not; it lays out the principles and the working methods of IAR instead of approaching it as a "laundry list".--Father Goose (talk) 02:52, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. I don't see any reason for maintaining WIAR as a separate page from IAR at this point, especially considering that almost any first-time reader of IAR is going to need to read WIAR before they go off deleting the main page. The nutshell summary is fine, but reducing the whole article to that summary seems to be a rather poor compromise. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:36, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Um... "especially considering that almost any first-time reader of IAR is going to need to read WIAR before they go off deleting the main page." Where are you finding such first-time readers? People who read IAR and then go off and so something stupid on account of it are in a vanishingly small minority - I'm not sure I've ever seen such a thing happen. Can you cite any example based on experience of people's misunderstanding of this page, showing that any harm has actually been caused by it? -GTBacchus^(talk)

I like how it is. People seem to get it well enough and if they don't we will just hit the magic revert button. Chillum 23:58, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Related link

I don't know if this is appropriate for the policy page, but this TED talk explains nicely the reason why IAR is important.--ragesoss (talk) 19:57, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree! This is an excellent talk. --Phenylalanine (talk) 00:27, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Websites that start playing sounds when loaded are really annoying. Chillum 00:29, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Very. Pyritie (talk) 20:21, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Change

I changed the rule to:

If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it as common sense dictates.

from its previous wording:

If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it.

in order to emphasize the fact that IAR should be interpreted in the light of common sense. There might be some resistance to this change, though, and I personally don't have any investment in whichever wording is adopted. Does anybody have any thoughts or comments on this? – Thomas H. Larsen 07:01, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Common sense is sense that other people commonly share with you. If the sense was common there would be no need to ignore the rule, people would agree. Sometimes it is sense that you have that is not common that shows the need to break the rule. Common sense is not a requirement, only that the action be improving or maintaining Wikipedia. I like the spirit of the addition, but I think IAR goes beyond common sense. Chillum 14:01, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I think I follow your logic. The policy could do with a little clarification, but I agree with you that "common sense" is perhaps not the best possible phrase. – Thomas H. Larsen 04:20, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Long discussion has pretty much always ended up just keeping the canonical twelve words though. The danger is that any additions to this actual policy page intended to clarify it will lead editors to interpret the policy by the strict wording, which is not the intent. At least IMO, it's deliberately intended to be vague. It's an exhortation to do what you think is right, the community will tell you right smartly when you're wrong - but it's not meant to be restrictive. Common sense is among the several linked essays which attempt to provide some understanding of what IAR means, but none of them qualify (pace FG) for inclusion in the policy itself. You would have to choose very carefully any proposed change of wording. Franamax (talk) 04:50, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Hullo! ;-) --Father Goose (talk) 18:23, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Flag as historical

I propose this "policy" be flagged thusly. Discuss. -Stevertigo 22:43, 17 March 2009 (UTC)