Talk:List of people killed for being transgender

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Requested move 6 June 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved (non-admin closure) Mdaniels5757 (talk) 22:55, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

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List of people killed for being transgender → List of unlawfully killed trans people – Each death can't be proved and won't be proved in a court of law. The title "killed for being trans" presumes an unreasonable criterion. 2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 18:21, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose and speedy close. With only a minor alteration, this RM is just a repetition of the recently-concluded one (#Requested move 20 March 2020). That RM established that there is no encyclopedic value to a list of people killed who just happen to be transgender. The encyclopedic value is in a list of those whose status was a proximate cause. Yes, this means a lot of names no longer belong, and that's the point. -- Netoholic @ 19:58, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

So many unarmed trans people being killed isn't a coincidence. The "killed for being transgender" is a furtive move to eviscerate the article after the failed attempts to delete the article.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 22:02, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

The last AfD was specifically closed noting "overly broad criteria for inclusion, problems with the article title". Without the changes, its quite possible another AfD would delete this list noting that very little had been done to address the problems after multiple years. This title and scope may in fact be saving this list from complete deletion. I suggest focusing on finding reliably-sourced inclusions under the current scope. -- Netoholic @ 02:19, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for confessing to your dogged attempts to delete this article for so many years.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 02:32, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose per above. This was the agreed-upon title in a very recent RM. Paintspot Infez (talk) 01:31, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - revised list fits title well. Hundreds of people die every day, some of them trans - simply being a unlawfully killed trans person is not criteria for inclusion in Wikipedia. AntiChirality (talk) 15:49, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
• Support - No single oppose is going by notability established by RS. I see several RS that list killed trans people without the added criteria and discuss the murders as an issue that happens for a multitude of reasons, see Forbes, The Hill, NBC, USA Today, Newsweek, CNN, etc. These sources, as do research oriented sources I can pull, discuss multiple reasons for these murders and show that there are systemic issues leading to higher murder rates for trans women that are also very notable, like homelessness, lack of employment except in sex trade, disrespect by police. The other issues with the current title is it talks to a mental state of the murderer that we are indirectly inferring. The wording also is informal, not the type we'd likely see in well-written RS (check out this quick search from Google News, note the sources are mostly opinion pieces.) In RS you'd be more likely to see wording like murders where transphobic bias was a factor. Also on this being a move request that happened recently after a previous one, I'll note that the move that changed the title to it's current one also happened after frequent prior attempts to change it failed. I suspect it only went through due to editors like myself burning out on the same discussion happening frequently. Rab V (talk) 19:43, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
• Support - I regret supporting the move to the current title as I see that is now being used as an excuse to completely gut this article, by establishing an impossibly high standard of proof that a person's trans status was the primary motive in their killing. Funcrunch (talk) 20:36, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

• The current edition of this article includes those whose trans status *may* have been a motive in their killing. This is a generous reading of the title and a shorter list is not necessarily a poorer article for it. Simply being a trans person killed is not notable enough for inclusion in a page that leads the reader to draw the conclusion they were killed for being trans. AntiChirality (talk) 01:22, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

So the Human Rights Campaign list of trans people killed is a reach, huh?--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 01:32, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

• Yes. Wikipedia is not the HRC and not an advocacy group for transgender activists. Please refer to WP:Memorial and WP:DIRECTORY. AntiChirality (talk) 02:47, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
• If someone's trans status contributed to their death, find reliable sources that state such. If it didn't contribute to their death, then there is no point (other than violating WP:NOTMEMORIAL) in singling them out from the WP:RUNOFTHEMILL reports of violent deaths across the population. If LGBT equality means anything, it means being treated the same as any other segment of the population... and that means if someone is killed, we don't create a list to based on an arbitrary personal status. We don't have a list of killed gay men/women, nor a list of killed redheads, or killed black people, or killed stutterers. Those would be the definition of WP:INDISCRIMINATE, just as moving this back to the old scope would be. -- Netoholic @ 02:52, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Do not confuse equality with equity. There is no historical record of violent physical attacks on people with red hair or speech impediments. Funcrunch (talk) 07:03, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

P.S. Regarding "we don't have a list of killed gay/men women": See List of people executed for homosexuality in Europe and Gay bashing. Funcrunch (talk) 07:09, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

You do realize that you are making Netoholic's point for him there? List of people executed for homosexuality in Europe is a list of people executed because of their (alleged) homosexuality. It's not a list of all homosexual people executed. Similarly, Gay bashing is about "attack, abuse, or assault" because of a person's (perceived) LGBT status. Regards SoWhy 07:29, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

WP:NOTMEMORIAL requires that the subject meets notability requirements, and that shouldn't be a problem. Similar with WP:INDISCRIMINATE's requirement that"data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources." Agree HRC is likely not an RS. Rab V (talk) 03:00, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

• HRC's mission is advocacy. However noble, that is not what Wikipedia is about. By its own criteria, the list itself includes people who may be victims of transphobia, but it also includes people who may have been made vulnerable by marginalization, poverty, etc. In Wikipedia terms, it's a memorial, and its scope is suitable some place other than Wikipedia. • Gene93k (talk) 02:44, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

What's wrong with advocating against killing trans people? Is CNN wrong for running the 2019 list? At least 22 transgender people have been killed this year. But numbers don't tell the full story at CNN --2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 00:19, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

• Support - When I commented on this article before, I was unaware of the last RFM. I agree that the change seems to have been, intentionally or unintentionally, a crippling blow to the article. The new title would give us room to make this article what it actually is, and not set a nearly impossible bar in an attempt to empty it out. Parabolist (talk) 22:29, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose return to the previous main title header which was moved to the present title two months ago, on April 2. "Unlawful killing" is a term used in English law, but not throughout the English-speaking world. An exchange [above] highlighted possible confusion regarding the term — "Support are there "lawfully killed trans people"? Axem Titanium (talk) 19:43, 20 March 2020 (UTC) Comment: Self defence, capital punishment, euthanasia... jamacfarlane (talk) 23:55, 24 March 2020 (UTC)". I would, however, support an all-inclusive header such as List of killed transgender people or List of transgender people who were killed and do, indeed, include those, if any, who died as a result of euthanasia, capital punishment or someone claiming self defense. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:38, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per last time and Netoholic. Every person's death is tragic in its own way but not every person's death is worthy of inclusion or we venture into WP:INDISCRIMINATE territory with no way out. While per Transgender#Population figures the number of transgender people is hard to pin down, one estimate mentioned in that article is that 0.3% of all people in the EU are transgender. Extrapolating to worldwide population, that would ~24 million people (the real number is probably much higher). Every year, approx. 7 out of 100,00 people are killed unlawfully worldwide. That means, approx. 1,700 transgender people are killed unlawfully every year. The proposed scope (by moving the article) would include every one of those deaths, no matter why they were killed. Regards SoWhy 07:50, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
• Support. The current discussion clearly shows that the move to the current title did not reflect an actual consensus among editors. In addition, several people who supported the move at the time have changed their position. Yet the article's scope and content are being changed despite the lack of consensus. I'm not a fan of the old title, but I think we should revert the move and go back to the previous title/scope until we have a clearer consensus on what this article should be. --Jd4v15 (talk) 17:59, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Trans Lives Matter?

Why are following deaths in 2020 in the United States excluded despite sources like ABC, NBC, CNN, PinkNews, HRC, cbc.ca, upi.com?

• Dustin Parker, 25, was fatally shot in McAlester, Oklahoma, early on New Year’s Day. His employers released a statement shortly after his death, remembering Parker as “a steadfast friend, an amazing husband and father and generous to a fault. He loved fiercely, worked tirelessly and took on life with so much hope and enthusiasm that his presence brightened all of our lives.”
• Neulisa Luciano Ruiz, was fatally shot in Toa Baja, Puerto Rico on February 24. According to Metro Puerto Rico, members of her community knew her as "humble" and "noble."
• Yampi Méndez Arocho, 19, was killed in Moca, Puerto Rico, on March 5. Arocho, a transgender man, shared his love for basketball and the NBA -- donning Miami Heat apparel on social media. The biography line on his Facebook reads simply, “Humility Prevails.”
• Monika Diamond, 34, a Black transgender woman, was killed in Charlotte, North Carolina on March 18. Diamond was active in the Charlotte LGBTQ and nightlife community and was the co-owner of an event promotion company. She also was the co-CEO of the International Mother of the Year Pageantry System -- a pageant that honors LGBTQ mothers.
• Lexi, 33, a transgender woman, was killed in Harlem, New York on March 28. According to reports, Lexi was fatally stabbed in Harlem River Park. “I really looked up to her because of her tolerance and respect,” said Lavonia Brooks, a friend of Lexi. “Lexi had a beautiful heart, she was very gifted.” Brooks also noted that Lexi loved poetry, makeup and fashion.
• Johanna Metzger, a transgender woman, was killed in Baltimore, Maryland on April 11. According to reports, she was visiting a Baltimore recovery center from Pennsylvania at the time. Johanna was known for her love of music and taught herself to play multiple instruments.
• Serena Angelique Velázquez Ramos, 32, was killed in Puerto Rico on April 21. Ramos was killed alongside Layla Pelaez Sánchez, 21. According to reports, Ramos was visiting the island on vacation, and was set to return to her home in Queens, New York, at the end of the month. Loved ones are mourning her death, calling her “full of life,” a “happy person,” and a “sincere friend.” On May 1, two men were charged under federal hate crimes law for Ramos's death.
• Layla Pelaez Sánchez, 21, was killed in Puerto Rico on April 21. Sánchez was killed alongside Serena Angelique Velázquez Ramos. According to reports, Sánchez had recently moved to the island, and was living in the Tejas neighborhood in Las Piedras. On May 1, two Puerto Rican men were charged under federal hate crimes law for Sánchez's death.

• Penélope Díaz Ramírez, a transgender woman, was killed in Puerto Rico on April 13.

• Nina Pop, a Black transgender woman, was killed in Sikeston, Missouri, on May 3.

• Helle Jae O’Regan, 20, a transgender woman, was killed in San Antonio, Texas, on May 6. O’Regan was proud of her trans identity and on Twitter, she often spoke out against injustice, including the LGBTQ inequality, the prison industrial complex and the need to decriminalize sex work. Damion Terrell Campbell, 42, has been charged with O’Regan’s murder.

• Tony McDade, a Black transgender man, was killed in Tallhassee, Florida, on May 27. His friends and family shared how he was an energetic, giving person with a big heart.
• Dominique “Rem'mie” Fells, a Black transgender woman was killed in Philadelphia, Pennsyania, on June 9. One personal friend posted online, “Dom was a unique and beautiful soul who I am lucky to have known personally. I am beside myself right now. We need to fight!! We need to do more!!!! We will get justice.”
• Riah Milton, a 25-year-old Black transgender woman, was killed in Liberty Township, Ohio on June 9. In March, she posted the status “Never been scared to struggle. Imma get it eventually” -- a comment highlighting her resilience and optimism as a person facing a transphobic, misogynist and racist society.
• Jayne Thompson, a 33-year old white transgender woman, was killed in Mesa County, Colorado, on May 9. She was killed by a Colorado State Patrol trooper and misgendered in initial news reports.

• Selena Reyes-Hernandez, a 37-year old transgender woman, was killed in Chicago on May 31. “We have lost a beloved member of our trans family because of hate -- hate that has corrupted our country’s soul and that shatters lives and futures every day,” said Tori Cooper, HRC director of community engagement for the Transgender Justice Initiative.
• Brian “Egypt’ Powers, a 43-year old Black transgender person, was killed in Akron, Ohio, on June 13. Powers worked at a local catering company and is remembered for wearing long, colorful braids -- “unicorn braids,” as Powers called them.
• Brayla Stone, a 17-year old Black transgender girl, was found killed in Little Rock, Arkansas, on June 25. “Brayla Stone was a child. A child, just beginning to live her life. A child of trans experience. A Black girl. A person who had hopes and dreams, plans and community,” said Tori Cooper, HRC director of community engagement for the Transgender Justice Initiative.
• Merci Mack, a 22-year old Black transgender woman, was killed in Dallas, Texas, on June 30. Her loved ones shared how beautiful of a friend she was. On her social media, she had recently posted that she enjoyed baking and that she was looking forward to returning to work. On July 8, a man was arrested on a murder charge in connection to her death.

• Shaki Peters, a 32-year old Black transgender woman, was killed in Amite CIty, Louisiana, on July 1. “In just four days, we have seen the deaths of at least three transgender and gender non-conforming people, including Shaki Peters. This horrific spike in violence against our community must be an urgent call to action for every single person in this nation,” said Tori Cooper, Director of Community Engagement for HRC’s Trans Justice Initiative.
• Bree Black, a 27-year-old Black transgender woman, was killed in Pompano Beach, Florida, on July 3. “These killings are being fueled by the deadly combination of racism and transphobia, and they must cease. We must come together as a community and demand justice for those who were taken from us,” said Tori Cooper, Director of Community Engagement for HRC’s Trans Justice Initiative.
• Summer Taylor, a white non-binary person, was in Seattle, Washington, on July 4. Taylor was participating in the Black Femme March in solidarity with Black Lives Matter and against police brutality. Taylor worked full time at Urban Animal veterinary hospital.
• Marilyn Cazares was a transgender Latina killed in Brawley, California. Mindy Garcia, an aunt of Cazares, said she “loved to sing and dance” and “never bothered anyone.”
• Dior H Ova, who some reports identify as Tiffany Harris, a Black transgender woman, was killed in the Bronx, New York. According to her Facebook, Ova loved fashion -- listing her career as a personal shopper and posting photos with luxury fashion brands that she loved. On August 13, a man was arrested on a murder charge in connection to her death.
• Queasha D Hardy, a 22-year old Black transgender woman, was killed in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, on July 27. Hardy, a hairstylist, was extremely loved by her community. Friends and loved ones describe her as loyal, loving, “always smiling,” “the life of all parties” and “truly one of a kind.”
• Aja Raquell Rhone-Spears, who sometimes used the name Rocky Rhone, a Black transgender woman, was killed in Portland, Oregon, on July 28. According to Facebook, she studied at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, and was the owner and founder of International Barbie, a Portland-based clothing brand. "Murdered for Being Transgender according to People (magazine). Of course, some Wikipedia editors don't care!

The above list is incomplete. https://tdor.translivesmatter.info/reports has more dead trans people in year 2020.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 02:06, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

• You just listed 25 entries with one connected to a specific source. From a partial sampling: Aja Raquell Rhone-Spears: family says - People does not state as a fact in its own voice; Riah Milton - NBC sources says robbery; Dominique "Rem'mie" Fells - same NBC source does not state transphobic violence as motive. As for Trans Lives Matter, it's another activist site with a different scope and purpose than Wikipedia. • Gene93k (talk) 17:27, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Summer Taylor was at a protest and was killed when a car drove into the crowd. The driver was not targetting her specifically; she was not "killed for being transgender". Jayne Thompson was experiencing some sort of distress, and was killed by a police officer while she was holding a knife. Police killing distressed people holding weapons is sadly too common, but there isn't any indication that her trans status had anything to do with her death (she was misgendered for weeks in reports of the killing. Was the police officer even aware she was trans?). I discussed Dustin Parker's case in a previous thread. He worked as a cab driver, a profession which has the highest rate of employees murdered while working; was Parker killed for being trans, or because of his profession? This is not a list of every trans person who has been killed. Plantdrew (talk) 17:41, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

• I think People magazine titled the article "Murdered for Being Transgender" in the death of Aja Raquell Rhone-Spears just to spite the anti-transsexual editors here at Wikipedia. What now? --2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 20:07, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

• Assuming bad faith of other editors is disruptive behavior. One more time: try to get consensus though discussion. Your last edit also implicitly changed scope of this list. Editor consensus here does not support that either. • Gene93k (talk) 22:01, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• Your insistence on enumerating allowed sources goes against the spirit of WP:V and WP:RS. Supported by reliable sources applies to all published Wikipedia lists. Wikipedia content should be verifiable. That is a policy that should not need to be stated in article prose. • Gene93k (talk) 22:07, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Your insistence on not defining the criteria for inclusion makes no sense?--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 22:22, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Disruptive or not, this anonymous editor has a point. If "explicit attribution of motive by reliable sources" is our requirement (and it shouldn't be, since it's not normal RS practice and we don't have consensus for it), then the article ought to say so, because it would exclude most murders of trans people, even when their trans status is a factor in their deaths. A user who finds this page while researching violence against trans people will be misinformed about the scope and scale of that violence, since so many victims would be excluded from the list. A note in the lede about scope/exclusions is inadequate, but marginally less misleading. --Jd4v15 (talk) 22:37, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

I concur with a need for WP:V. Confirming it as a hate crime. This list is too long already. Zezen (talk) 21:53, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Michelle "Tamika" Washington

I see that Michelle "Tamika" Washington was present in this list earlier this year (as of March 6[1]) but her name was removed at some point later, after the page name was changed. I wonder if her name should be re-added back. I am currently looking at the June 5, 2019 Philadephia Inquirerer article which details a court hearing of the person accused of her murder. The alleged perpetrator made a confession of sorts during the hearing: "Bailey, who told detectives that he knew the victim as Michelle, said he was supposed to sell a gun to her boyfriend, according to the summary. He claimed that Washington then wanted him to perform a sex act. He said that he got angry and so did she, and that she then pulled out a folding knife and he shot her more than once, according to the summary." Although he probably meant it as an excuse for his anger, it actually sounds to me like he is kind of admitting to a hate crime, at least in part. The article also says: "After the hearing, Toczylowski [Assistant DA] declined to comment on whether authorities believed Bailey’s statement about what happened before he shot Washington." I am not quite sure quite how to interpret this information, but I'd like to hear what other editors think. If it were just up to me, I'd re-add her name to the list. Nsk92 (talk) 21:19, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

It's not for Wikipedia to publish its own analysis of what he said there, nor the DA. --Equivamp - talk 23:46, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

We don't have to analyze it. We could include the name and summarize the circumstances, based on the available reporting. Nsk92 (talk) 23:48, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Are there RS that say she was killed for being transgender? --Equivamp - talk 23:49, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

You mean, using that actual phrase, "for being transgender"? Certainly not. But I don't think that there exist such RS for most other entries present in this list, and I think it would be unreasonable for us to insist on the existence of such precise language for inclusion. Nsk92 (talk) 23:54, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

The wording doesn't have to be verbatim, but the source you've listed specifically says that the authorities did not believe that her being trans was relevant to the killing and isn't making an argument otherwise. --Equivamp - talk 23:59, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't see anything in this article saying that "the authorities did not believe that her being trans was relevant to the killing". The only statement I see from the authorities there on the question of the motive is a 'no comment' type statement: "[Assistant DA] declined to comment on whether authorities believed Bailey’s statement about what happened before he shot Washington." But the ADA did not actually contradict the statement made by the defendant regarding the motive. (Although the article does say that the victim's sister did not believe the defendant's account.) Nsk92 (talk) 00:13, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

I personally think the source is a bit too vague. Can't say I'd have any special objection to her inclusion, but I think the available source seems a little too ambiguous. I looked around a bit and can't really find a better source either.OrdinaryDecent (talk) 00:47, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

You're right, it was my mistake, I was actually reading a different article, also from the Philadelphia Inquirer, which was linked as a related story in the one you linked. Here it says, [D]etectives are not investigating the shooting as a hate crime and don’t believe Washington’s gender identity to be the motivation for the killing. --Equivamp - talk 01:48, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

• Reports at the time said her death wasn't related to her being trans, but obviously that was before the court hearing you mention. Later sources do seem to list her as having been killed for being transgender, although many of the lists are a bit vaguely-worded; this paper says "The idea that a person can be aggressed because of the aesthetic that they choose to adopt is repugnant for the modern sensibility. Still, we can speak about a degree of violence related to queer outfits and the stories of this CI showed it clearly. Also, well-known cases were mentioned in the CI, where the most outrageous example was the series of hate crimes which are committed against Trans persons all over the world. The last case was dated three days before, when Michelle Washington, a Trans woman, was killed in Philadelphia. Likewise, this article includes her in a list that ends with As of this article’s publication, these are the 22 reported victims of anti-transgender violence in the United States. However, there may be more victims who have not been reported or have not been claimed as anti-transgender violence. This implies to me that at least some other reliable sources reached the same conclusion you did. --Aquillion (talk) 00:08, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I actually wanted to raise a similar point regarding the timing but then forgot about this thread. The article Equivamp cites above is from May 21, 2019. The article mentioned in my original post in this thread is from June 5, 2019, after a rather consequential court hearing has taken place. As a general remark, I've been thinking that maybe it is time to have an RfC to see what the editors think about the current title of this page, how the move to the title has been working out, and if perhaps some changes are needed. Nsk92 (talk) 00:17, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

I mean, the only change that would address this is to make it into "List of transgender people who were killed" or the like, which does make the WP:LISTCRITERIA more unambiguous. I suppose topical relevance could be argued with the fact that numerous other sources maintain such lists, but it reminds me a bit of Excess mortality in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin in that, while it decisively solves the problem of scope, it also results in an article or list that feels slightly parallel to its actual topic. --Aquillion (talk) 07:28, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Chyna Carrillo

It is standard procedure for police to

• call a murderer "suspect"
• say "alleged" killer
• not state the motive

even if the murder is recorded on camera in broad daylight. Once again, folks were stating that we are not demanding indictment & court conviction for victims. If so, then there is no reason to remove Chyna Carrillo.

On the other hand, if the indictment and criminal conviction with transphobic motive is a requisite for inclusion in the article, then the article introduction must specify the guideline instead of obfuscating and creating murky grounds ripe for edit wars.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 21:39, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with all of the details of this case, but here's a news article seeming to indicate that this was a domestic violence case and not a hate crime so it wouldn't fit the page: https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/police-murder-in-new-wilmington-does-not-appear-to-be-a-hate-crime/ But I don't know that it's the most current information. Anyone got a source saying otherwise?OrdinaryDecent (talk) 22:51, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

You can't hate your domestic partner? Sounds like the argument that you can't rape your spouse.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 23:10, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

If the police department refused to classify this is a hate crime, it doesn't make it a non-hate crime. Remember that the 2009 Fort Hood shooting was not classified as a terrorist incident by the government in 2009! Now that the police department has realized that the victim was a trans woman, they're walking back. I think some police officers were expecting the police officer to join in the murder. The police department is now about to punish the police officer and have placed him on administrative leave!--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 23:18, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

• Derek Chauvin and George Floyd knew each other. Now, Derek Chauvin is even more guilty.
• Chyna Carrillo and Juan Carter Hernandez knew each other. Therefore, local police says that Juan Carter Hernandez was not motivated by hate! This logic of the New Wilmington police department shows that the local police department is hateful by claiming that the domestic violence and hate crime are mutually exclusive. Even if Chyna Carrillo and Juan Carter Hernandez were husband and wife residing at the same address, it is mindboggling that the local police want to join the murderer's defense team.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 00:18, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

It doesn't matter whether hate crimes and DV are mutually exclusive. Are there reliable sources stating that she was killed for being transgender or not? --Equivamp - talk 00:38, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

I looked a bit and didn't find any sources claiming that the killer was motivated by transphobia. But I didn't do an exhaustive search. Articles I saw discussed the details of the killing, the prior killing by the same individual and the domestic relationship between the killer and the victim but gave no clear motive in the instant case. His prompt death likely means that additional information will not be forthcoming.OrdinaryDecent (talk) 07:25, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

All the sources are stating that the killing of the victim was motivated by transphobia. At the same time, they state that the New Wilmington police department didn't chalk up the murder to transphobia.

If you demand police attribution of the motive or a criminal indictment in court, then the introduction needs to say so like it used to "This is a worldwide list of trans homicides after police or court statements alleging transphobia. "

--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 02:06, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

• I understand the perspective that LGBT news sources and average people like Megan Godfrey calling for an end to hate crime don't mean a thing.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 02:16, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

  "All the sources are stating that the killing of the victim was motivated by transphobia". Would you mind sharing these sources with us? It would make the discussion probably much easier. Regards SoWhy 08:40, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

• https://www.hrc.org/news/hrc-mourns-chyna-carrillo-latinx-transgender-woman-killed-in-pennsylvania
• https://www.hrc.org/resources/fatal-violence-against-the-transgender-and-gender-non-conforming-community-in-2021
• https://www.advocate.com/crime/2021/2/22/transgender-woman-chyna-carrillo-beaten-death-pennsylvania
• https://www.pressreader.com/usa/arkansas-democrat-gazette/20210224/282071984622215
• https://www.gscene.com/news/trans-woman-beaten-to-death-in-pennsylvania/
• https://instinctmagazine.com/trans-nursing-assistant-killed-2-weeks-before-25th-birthday/
• https://www.nwahomepage.com/news/local-lawmaker-reacts-to-chyna-carillos-death/
• Transgender Day of Remembrance, Gwendolyn Ann Smith https://tdor.translivesmatter.info/reports/2021/02/18/chyna-carrillo_new-wilmington-pennsylvania-usa_aab47d49
• Megan Godfrey https://twitter.com/meganforAR/status/1362876769594793985
• https://www.out.com/crime/2021/2/24/brutal-killing-chyna-carillo-signals-deadliest-year-trans-folks
• https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/02/20/chyna-carrillo-transgender-murder-pennsylvania-human-rights-campaign/
• https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2021/02/trans-woman-essential-worker-moved-mid-pandemic-work-beaten-death/
• Linda Darling-Hammond: "Chyna’s murder marks the grim milestone of four times the number of deaths we saw this time last year, a stark reminder of the misogyny and transphobia prevalent in American society" published at National Black Justice Coalition https://nbjc.org/the-national-black-justice-coalition-grieves-the-death-of-chyna-carrillo/
• https://www.edgemedianetwork.com/story.php?302306 " though the actual number of fatalities stemming from anti-trans violence could well be higher due to misreporting, underreporting, and misgendering." Isn't this what some editors are demanding? To under-report or rather not report any anti-trans violence. Aren't you asking for 100% of anti-trans violence reported this year to be excluded?
• https://www.sharonherald.com/news/local_news/remembering-chyna/article_4fbbfa23-7944-500f-85c1-0bbe9d4c48a9.html "upporters held a candlelight vigil aimed at bringing the community together, raising awareness for transgender violence"
• https://www.pghcitypaper.com/pittsburgh/the-recent-deaths-of-trans-people-of-color-in-western-pennsylvania-signal-an-alarming-trend-of-violence/Content?oid=19015946 "These violent acts are compounded for trans people with intersecting marginalized identities, especially for trans women of color who experience racism and misogyny in addition to transphobia."

--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 12:43, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

• Wikipedia editors don't demand police attribution. They do require factual statement from sources with good fact checking reputations. The reliable sources listed above note that Carrillo was murdered and they note the overall trend of violence of against trans people. However only statements that say Carrillo was a victim of a hate crime come from reactions from supporters and a politician. The reliable sources also note a lack of evidence that the murder was a hate crime. Final note: I do not include HRC and other activist sources as reliable references for facts. • Gene93k (talk) 13:27, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

You reject HRC which shows that you oppose trans rights.

Please provide 3 examples of dead people in the article which don't have police or court attribution, but the are more than 3 celebrities claiming the murders were due to transphobia.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 14:04, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

• From the list: Raina Aliev - attributed to press ; Dwayne Jones - lynching attributed to press ; Amna and Meeno - torture by police attributed to press. Official corroboration is good to have, but independent reliable sources are better. • Gene93k (talk) 15:06, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
• Celebrity or prominence does not make the speaker WP:RELIABLE for Wikipedia purposes. In the Carrillo case, they are making a factual leap not supported by evidence. • Gene93k (talk) 15:06, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Okay. Let's do this. I will be the devil's advocate in the case of Raina Aliev that you bring up?

Who killed her?

Her father and family didn't kill her. Did they? The article doesn't say so.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/transgender-woman-hacked-death-days-9168649

--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 17:16, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

• The sources cited name transphobia as a likely motive, given the multiple death threats further boosted by the "purman" edict from Aliev's family. Authorities didn't protect Raina Aliev and they are unlikely to bring her killer(s) to justice. Back on topic with Chyna Carrillo, sources don't provide even that much. The list entry is resting on a "we must do something" declaration by a politician following the crime. Again, sources note the lack of evidence of the killing being an anti-trans hate crime. • Gene93k (talk) 23:38, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

You are trying to establish criteria that will keep transphobic deaths from the United States to zero. The United States is not a fourth world Chechnya or Afghanistan type of place where honor killing and so on rule. I maintain my objection to your attempt to remove the one (1) most notable and atrocious trans woman death this year.

In the year 2020, we had "37 transgender and gender-nonconforming people have been killed this year" as of November 20th 2020 according to Joe Biden's agreement [2]. I am trying to compromise with you on not listing every single one; however, when you insist on excluding 100% of these transphobic deaths, then I feel inclined to debate you since it seems than you demand nothing less than removing everyone from the victim list.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 00:19, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

This is not a list of transgender people who have been killed; this is a list of people who have been killed for being transgender. --Equivamp - talk 00:22, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Sometimes there is an overlap. I disagree with your attempt to establish hard boundaries and being judgmental by ruling out transphobia.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 00:28, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

First, you need to stop casting WP:ASPERSIONS and remember editors are expected to assume good faith from each other; doing so is disruptive and impedes discussion. Second, I'm not sure what you think I'm ruling out. It's not up to Wikipedia editors to analyze whether a specific murder was due to being trans or not - we have to rely on sources actually saying so. --Equivamp - talk 00:36, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

• The sources I listed above do list anti-trans violence. In another recent death, "first thing reported about her by local media was the one thing I never wanted to hear: the deadname she was assigned at birth" [3]. So, if I state very plainly that the local police department is transphobic, then you state that I am casting aspersion?--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 00:43, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

No, you're casting aspersions against editors you're talking to. Please make sure you understand Wikipedia's policies about talk page conduct. --Equivamp - talk 13:12, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

• From our policy on original research:

  Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source.

  That the victim was a trans person might qualify the killing as "anti-trans" for some sources but the criteria for inclusion in this article are that being a trans person was the reason for the killing as verifiable by reliable sources. I checked all of the links (except those I can't access for HTTP 451 reasons) and all we can verify from those is that 1) she was trans and 2) she was killed. Which is unfortunate but as I pointed out on this page before, thousands of trans persons are killed unlawfully every year but in most cases, their deaths have nothing to do with them being trans. In this case, based on all available sources, I think it's much more likely that the killer who was living with her and thus most likely well aware of her being trans was just an a****** who enjoyed beating women, regardless of whether they were cis or trans (seeing as he was previously sentenced to 8-10 years for killing his wife). No one is arguing that her death was not tragic but so far you have not provided any sources that link the killing to her being trans. Regards SoWhy 13:46, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

As I stated before, I am more than happy to debate you because your hardline stance demanding 100% exclusion of anti-trans violence after year 2020 deserves nothing less than my full attention and guidance towards light.

You claim, "you have not provided any sources that link the killing to her being trans." Of course, I have,

1. Jose Soto of HRC [4]
2. Linda Darling-Hammond
3. Megan Godfrey
4. Gwendolyn Ann Smith

...

--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 16:00, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

The HRC source doesn't state anywhere that she was killed for being trans, just that she was trans and she was killed. The other things you linked are just other Wikipedia articles...? --Equivamp - talk 16:16, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

"There is a lot of heartbreak in Springdale today. We need a hate crimes law that protects all, including transgender Arkansans, from hate-motivated violence. And we don’t need laws that permit & embolden discrimination against trans Arkansans. ❤️ to the family of Chyna Carrillo." --Megan Godfrey tweet --2601:C4:C300:1BD0:708E:2510:279C:4124 (talk) 17:49, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that is not a reliable source, as self-published sources cannot be used for claims about third parties. (It also doesn't actually say that Carrillo's murder was "hate-motivated violence", though it does imply it) --Equivamp - talk 19:23, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't know about your familiarity with US network news sources. Network broadcast sources like ABC, NBC, CBS, and Fox have locate affiliates (Big_Three_television_networks#Fox). Megan Godfrey's statement has been published by the local Fox Broadcasting affiliate that publish local stories. [5] --2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 22:16, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

But the source is just reporting on what was said by the politician, and still runs into the problem of not going as far as to call Carrillo's murder as one motivated by transphobia. If it did, I would favor including the event, with in-text attribution to the source(s) describing it as such, as well as stating the police interpretation of motive. --Equivamp - talk 00:06, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

We have several notable people stating transmisogyny as the motive which we don't have for Raina Aliev. Cavilling over terminology & refusing to use logic is the reason that mainstream sources have reported about 8 transphobic deaths while you refuse to admit the most atrocious one into the list.

You're sitting here & trying to differentiate between

• Anti-trans violence
• Hate-motivated crime
• Domestic violence
• Transphobia
• transmisogyny

because Juan Carter Hernandez had killed his first wife, now he is a saint who is an equal opportunity hater of all women and not just trans woman!--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 00:48, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm not trying to differentiate between anything; that would be original research, which is not done here, and which is what you're trying to do. You don't have the sources needed to include Carrillo here. FWIW, I've looked a few times myself and didn't find anything sufficient either. --Equivamp - talk 01:06, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Raina Aliev has no notable person claiming transphobia. Don't we have some news reporters doing original research when we don't even know the identity of her mudererer(s) with certitude? Why don't your remove Raina Aliev?--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 01:47, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm not responsible for nor aware of every single incident/source on this list. Something else not fitting doesn't mean we should add more things that don't belong. Looking at Raina Aliev, the sources are all directly attributing her murder to her father's transphobia. Yes, reliable sources do research, and that's what Wikipedia publishes - it's Wikipedia editors who are not supposed to do our own research. We just publish what the reliable sources say. --Equivamp - talk 02:05, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

As an unbiased editor, you are responsible for collaborating with me on a coherent guideline for inclusion of victim's into the list. I am ready to work with you on coming up with a guideline that is easy to understand & follow to decide which deaths are included & which ones are excluded.

No problem is your "reliable sources" guideline doesn't work with Raina Aliev. Do you agree that

1. Probable cause - police attribution
2. Criminal indictment - start of a court case
3. Criminal conviction - beyond a reasonable doubt
4. Attribution from a notable person who has a Wikipedia article in their name.

So, why do you object to "Attribution from a notable person who has a Wikipedia article in their name" like

1. Linda Darling-Hammond
2. Megan Godfrey
3. Gwendolyn Ann Smith

?--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 02:30, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I think the criterion for inclusion is a simple one: WP:RS that say -- actually say -- that a person being transgender was a motivating factor in their killing. You can read about identifying what counts at Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, and check WP:RSP for whether a specific source is useable or not. --Equivamp - talk 02:45, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Your criterion doesn't work for Raina Aliev--very obviously! So, hearsay from neighbors doesn't positively establish who even murdered her. Your "reliable sources" criteria is most unreliable & fuzzy. It's is unraveling--I'm sorry to say. You prefer hearsay to Linda Darling-Hammond? (Scratching & shaking my head.)

Don't rush. Think through this. Sleep and come up with a good set of criteria that can be applied without doing the original research that we claim each of us is doing.

Demanding a fatwa-like pronouncements like those from the Council of Islamic Ideology and Raina Aliev's father will not work in civilized societies like the United States. --2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 02:56, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

In case if you are interested, "purman" in the Raina Aliev case is not a workable criterion.

https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%81%D8%B1%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%86

By the way, "purman" is the Chechen bastardization of the word Firman. Do you want to issuance of a Firman or fatwa before the victim's death?

--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 03:03, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

You're being disruptive, now. If you can't provide any reliable sources stating that she was killed for being transgender, then she can't be included on a list of people who were killed for being transgender. And that is all I need to say. --Equivamp - talk 03:11, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

The "reliable sources" criterion hasn't worked for the other dead people on the list. I want a streamlined guidance for inclusion that isn't murky. That is like saying that Trump isn't racist because Al Sharpton called him so. We can state that Al Sharpton calls Trump a bigot and racist but Trump denies it. We don't need to remove the claim & dismiss Al Sharpton as unreliable.

Similarly, we can say that Chyna Carrillo was killed. Afterwards, the New Wilmington police department ruled out transphobia while social justice warriors Linda Darling-Hammond & Megan Godfrey or virtue signalling people blamed transphobia. --2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 03:23, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 is continually reverting edits removing Chyna Carillo from the page. This is unproductive entirely and there is no evidence for Carillo's inclusion. 2601 does not understand NPOV as a policy, which is inapplicable to discussion of whether a person is eligible for inclusion on the page. AntiChirality (talk) 15:49, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

They also don't appear to understand the reliable sourcing policies. This seems like a WP:CIR issue. But maybe a third opinion would be beneficial? The formatting of this talk page section is an awful mess, though, so I don't envy anyone coming and trying to make sense of things... --Equivamp - talk 17:38, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Chyna Carillo was killed in a small town in Pennsylvania. The police jumped to the killer's defense after her murders. Multiple notable people such as Linda Darling-Hammond & Megan Godfrey are saying there was bias because of the victim's sex. This is a very high standard that hasn't been met by numerous others on the list after the previous rampages of the pages.

When the Associated Press, NBC, and MSNBC respect the expertise of the Human Rights Campaign [6] and some of you all reject HRC as a fringe group, then I am greatly alarmed at your level of bias.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 18:09, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

The HRC link you provided does not mention Carrillo. I remember you trying to cite Godfrey and linked a quote where she did not actually attribute Carrillo's murder to her being trans. Who is Linda Darling-Hammond and which statements are you referring to? (And for the record, since you mentioned their "notability": having an article on Wikipedia is not the same thing as being a reliable source for a given topic.) --Equivamp - talk 18:17, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

My error. Not Linda Darling-Hammond. It's Kia.

“Chyna Carrillo was supposed to be embarking on new adventures in Pennsylvania,” said Dr. Kia Darling-Hammond, director of education programs and research at NBJC. “She was 24, full of life, and full of promise. Her friends say she had a contagious smile. It is devastating that a move that should have been a beginning in life put her in the path of that man’s rage and destruction. It’s a sign of our failure as a society. Chyna should be alive.”

“Chyna’s murder marks the grim milestone of four times the number of deaths we saw this time last year, a stark reminder of the misogyny and transphobia prevalent in American society and how urgent our work is. While 2020 was the deadliest year for trans, nonbinary, and gender nonconforming people on record, not only is the record likely incomplete, but 2021 has already begun to outstrip it. It is time to take a stand, both locally and federally, to protect our trans, nonbinary, and gender nonconforming communities,” added Dr. Darling-Hammond https://nbjc.org/the-national-black-justice-coalition-grieves-the-death-of-chyna-carrillo/

--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 18:32, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

You're missing a critical distinction here. It is entirely possible for the murder of trans people, in general, to reflect a culture that devalues transgender people. To give a parallel, one can report on the number of women killed by domestic violence to illustrate a misogynistic culture without claiming that any given DV victim was murdered because of her gender. --Equivamp - talk 18:50, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Being a cis woman doesn't disadvantage a woman while being a trans woman put a woman at massive disadvantage as see by the pending confirmation of Rachel Levine. The list on the article can't be at such odds with HRC's list so grotesquely that one list may list around 50 deaths ("last year’s total number of 44 deaths, which marked 2020 as the deadliest year on record for our community."[7]) while you won't permit one death and set outrageously opaque criteria that I can't understand with your "reliable sources" mantra and smokescreen. (This is your facade that you and I will dissect through over the next few weeks.)--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 18:59, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Weeks? Really now? No need to WP:BLUDGEON the process. At some point everyone will have to do something else with that horse carcass. This article hasn't been on my watchlist very long and I haven't thoroughly examined it yet. If there are other items on the list which don't have reliable sourcing for inclusion, by all means tag them as such (I'd suggest removing them yourself, but you admittedly don't understand the relevant policies, so you risk doing further damage that way). --Equivamp - talk 19:28, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

• IP, the sources clearly don't state that she was killed for being transgender; they're all very carefully-worded. Rather than focus on that, what I think your sources show is that the primary topic for this list ought to be reverted back to something like "List of murdered transgender people" or the like. Most of the sources seem to list and group deaths based on that criteria rather than the one we use here, and they often explain why specifically (eg. [8].) A straightforward list of such deaths better fits WP:LISTCRIT's requirement that the criteria be unambiguous, and the heavy specific coverage of such deaths (regardless of the reason they were killed) shows that it is a topic suitable for a list. Meanwhile, the constant bickering over inclusion / exclusion since the rename has shown that the rename isn't working because, first, the new criteria isn't clear enough, and second, it doesn't reflect the way most sources group such deaths (which is to list all trans murder victims and leave the in-depth analysis of why those deaths occurred and, therefore, what they mean to others.) --Aquillion (talk) 19:55, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

This isn't new. I brought this up before in Talk:List_of_people_killed_for_being_transgender#Requested_move_6_June_2020. After 3 failed attempts to delete this article, transphobic editors have established a way to maintain zero American victims on the list by maintaining a silly name and mandates criminal proof.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 20:06, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

If you failed three times, it seems consensus really is against changing the scope of the article to something you think is correct. But at some point, you need to accept that this article will never be the one you want it to be and stop edit-warring about it. Otherwise, you will most likely sooner or later be prevented from editing the article at all. Regards SoWhy 20:22, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I think that the article isn't meant to maintain zero American trans victims on the list. Am I wrong?--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994 (talk) 20:44, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

The article is "meant to" be a list of people killed *for* being transgender. The specific distribution of nationality is entirely irrelevant. I am not sure what the point of this argument is and I have no desire to further engage in edit warring with you. AntiChirality (talk) 03:06, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

"a list of people killed *for* being transgender" is an absurd criterion for American victims. Setting up to fail article is an apropos description.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:580:915F:858B:B783 (talk) 00:27, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

You have made your disagreement with the criteria clear. However, you need to accept the fact that the consensus is against you as the previous discussions have proven. And as long as these are in fact the criteria, you and I and everyone else have to abide by them. Even if you disagree with them. Regards SoWhy 17:35, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Demolition operations on the article

User:Paisarepa, please take a breather as you engage in transphobic censoring.

Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, Pete Buttigieg, and others are much more reliable than you!

Your hormone-addled deletions are very destructive.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:656A:420D:A1FA:7075 (talk) 22:32, 15 March 2021 (UTC)