Talk:Kim Jong Un

Birth year in the lead and the infobox

Which year(s) of birth should be used in the article lead and the infobox?

• A. 1982
• B. 1983
• C. 1984
• D. 1982 or 1983
• E. 1982 or 1984
• F. 1983 or 1984
• G. 1982, 1983 or 1984

79.185.139.79 (talk) 12:31, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

What do wp:rs say? 10:34, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

C. The Chinese and Korean Wikipedia says 1984. Many reliable sources say 1984, such as this South Korean newspaper https://www.donga.com/news/article/all/20120202/43751315/2. HaydenWong (talk) 15:24, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

The Japanese Wikipedia also says 1984 as an unofficial announcement by North Korea.--とんずらする豚 (talk) 08:36, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

And South Korea thinks it's 1983. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:03, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

What we have under Early life is the best information we have. The actual date is contested and there's nothing we can do about that.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:59, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Kim Jong-un's daughter

It was just revealed by NK that Kim has had a daughter, so this should probably be included in the infobox right? (source https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/11/19/north-korean-leader-reveals-daughter-at-ballistic-missile-launch) Ametica (talk) 09:06, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

We already know he has children. See under "Family". We don't know the name of the daughter who appeared at the missile launch, so I don't think there's much we can say.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:14, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Maybe, Ju-ae would deserve her own article, seeing how she is treated as the de facto Crown-Princess. Keksfresser12 (talk) 00:56, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

I was thinking the exact same thing. There's probably enough reports about her to write a short article.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:02, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

See this article [1]--Jack Upland (talk) 03:09, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Date of birth vandalisation

This Wikipedia article has been vandalised to claim that Kim Jong-un was born on 8 January 1982, when it is actually 8 January 1984. I will fix this. 2001:8003:6C38:5D00:B8CD:B8C9:4363:B619 (talk) 12:47, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Source (please read wp:rs)? Slatersteven (talk) 13:15, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Public image

Any update on "In a poll of South Koreans conducted following the May 2018 inter-Korean summit, 78% of respondents said they trusted Kim, compared with 10% approval a couple months prior." in the Public image section? I doubt if the views would still be as flaterring. Gotitbro (talk) 23:28, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Chronological?

Every edit seems to take this article further away from a chronological structure. I don't think this will end well. Jack Upland (talk) 06:44, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 6 April 2023

• Kim Jong-un → Kim Jong Un
• Kim Jong-il → Kim Jong Il
• Kim Il-sung → Kim Il Sung

– Previous discussion regarding North Korean names has rendered no consensus. (For previous discussions see here: [2], [3], [4], [5], and [6]) While South Korea has changed their preferred romanization of Korean names from "Kim Dae Jung" to "Kim Dae-jung", this is not the case for North Korea, which uses the romanization of "Kim Il Sung" for all names (The Economist Style Guide 2005 p. 102). The AP Stylebook follows this guideline, stating "North Korean names are written as three separate words, each capitalized: Kim Jong Un."

Kim Il Sung is the definitive common name per Google ngram [7] with sources going about two to one in favor of "Kim Il Sung". For the other two names, Google ngram shows similar rates of usage of both romanizations [8] [9]. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Korean) states that "If there is no personal preference, and no established English spelling, hyphenate the syllables, with only the first syllable capitalized."

It has been previously argued that the spelling "Kim Jong Un" would not be neutral. I find this unconvincing as this is the romanization used by North Korea for all Korean names and was also a historical romanization used by South Korea. If anything, using "Kim Jong-un", despite a clear personal preference for a name that is also common usage is breaking with NPOV.

Sources publishing in American English nearly universally use the unhyphenated romanziation. Sources from the United Kingdom or associated with the UK use both romanizations. South Korean sources generally use the hyphenated romanization, which follows the preferred romanization of South Korean names. As a whole, "Kim Jong Un" and "Kim Jong Il" have wider adoption than "Kim Jong-un" and "Kim Jong-il", while usage of "Kim Il Sung" is clearly favored in the sources. :3 F4U (they/it) 16:58, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Usage

United States

• Mixed usage The New York Times adds a hyphen for "Kim Jong-un" and "Kim Jong-il", but not for "Kim Il Sung"
• Mixed usage The New Yorker uses "Kim Jong Un" and "Kim Il Sung", but strangely uses both "Kim Jong-il" and "Kim Jong Il"
• No hyphen USA Today uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"
• No hyphen The Wall Street Journal uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"
• No hyphen The Los Angeles Times uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"
• No hyphen The Washington Post uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"
• No hyphen' Time Magazine uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"
• No hyphen The Associated Press uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"
• No hyphen Bloomberg News uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"
• No hyphen Voice of America uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"
• No hyphen The Chicago Tribune uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"
• No hyphen NPR uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"
• No hyphen The Boston Globe uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"
• No hyphen NK News uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"
• No hyphen The Diplomat uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"
• No hyphen Human Rights Watch uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"

United Kingdom

• Hyphen BBC News uses "Kim Jong-un", "Kim Jong-il", and "Kim Il-sung"
• Hyphen The Guardian uses "Kim Jong-un", "Kim Jong-il", and "Kim Il-sung"
• Hyphen The Times uses "Kim Jong-un", "Kim Jong-il", and "Kim Il-sung"
• Hyphen The Daily Telegraph uses "Kim Jong-un", "Kim Jong-il", and "Kim Il-sung"
• Hyphen Amnesty International uses "Kim Jong-un", "Kim Jong-il", and "Kim Il-sung"
• Unclear The Evening Standard does not consistently use one romanization
• Unclear The Independent does not consistently use one romanization
• No hyphen The Economist uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"
• No hyphen The Financial Times uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"
• No hyphen Reuters uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"
• No hyphen Sky News uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"

Ireland

• Hyphen The Irish Times historically unhyphenated the names, but currently uses "Kim Jong-un", "Kim Jong-il", and "Kim Il-sung"

France

• No hyphen France 24 generally uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"

Germany

• No hyphen DW uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"

India

• No hyphen The Indian Express generally uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"
• Unclear The Statesman does not consistently use one romanization

Japan

• No hyphen The Japan Times uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"
• No hyphen The Asahi Shimbun uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"

Qatar

• No hyphen Al Jazeera uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"

Singapore

• No hyphen The Straits Times uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"

Hong Kong

• Hyphen The South China Morning Post uses "Kim Jong-un", "Kim Jong-il", and "Kim Il-sung"

Australia

• Hyphen The Sydney Morning Herald uses "Kim Jong-un", "Kim Jong-il", and "Kim Il-sung"
• No hyphen ABC uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"

South Korea

• Hyphen The Korea Times uses "Kim Jong-un", "Kim Jong-il", and "Kim Il-sung"
• Hyphen The Korea Herald uses "Kim Jong-un", "Kim Jong-il", and "Kim Il-sung"
• Hyphen The Hankyoreh uses "Kim Jong-un", "Kim Jong-il", and "Kim Il-sung"
• Hyphen Yonhap News Agency uses "Kim Jong-un", "Kim Jong-il", and "Kim Il-sung"
• Mixed The JoongAng Daily adds a hyphen for "Kim Jong-un" and "Kim Jong-il", but not for "Kim Il Sung"
• No hyphen Daily NK uses "Kim Jong Un", "Kim Jong Il", and "Kim Il Sung"

North Korea

• North Korean sources exclusively use the unhyphenated romanization.

Notes

Survey and discussion

• Support - Based on the evidence provided, it does seem that the hyphen is more often omitted than included, establishing WP:COMMONNAME.--Estar8806 (talk) 03:12, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. The data above shows that usage is very mixed, and to a certain extent delineated by region. As such, there seems little reason to change from one acceptable version to another. Also, if we take from the above that UK English favours hyphens and US English does not, then MOS:RETAIN kicks in. Consistency with South Korean titles also seems reasonable.  — Amakuru (talk) 05:35, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - As per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Korean)#Given name and Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Korean)#Default policy on given names with three or more syllables: Should there be hyphens or not? Surveyor Mount 07:30, 7 April 2023 (UTC)WP:SOCKSTRIKE ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 06:57, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

  The first link you cite states If there is no personal preference, and no established English spelling, hyphenate the syllables, with only the first syllable capitalized. What I have shown here is that there is a personal preference and that there is an established English spelling. Regardless, WP:COMMONNAME trumps any naming convention. :3 F4U (they/it) 14:09, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

  Also that relates to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Korea-related articles in both North and South Korea, Koreans variously spell two-syllable given names as a joined word or separated by a hyphen or a space, with the second syllable in uppercase, and the third syllable in lowercase. But others does not (e.g. Jungkook). Surveyor Mount 22:25, 7 April 2023 (UTC)WP:SOCKSTRIKE ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 06:57, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

  I don't know where you're getting the idea that that is the case "in both North and South Korea". That's not the way its spelled in any North Korean English-language source (See the Rodong Sinmun, the KCNA, Voice of Korea, Uriminzokkiri, DPRK Today, Naenara, The Pyongyang Times, KASS (Korean: 조선사회과학자협회), the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Chongnyon Jonwi, the website for Kim Il Sung University, Minju Choson, North Korea's Ministry of Physical Culture and Sports, and all of the English-language periodicals as well). :3 F4U (they/it) 00:19, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

  See discussion in Wikipedia talk:Naming_conventions (Korean)#North Korean names 2, also Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Korea-related articles#Romanization of North Korean names. Surveyor Mount 00:27, 8 April 2023 (UTC)WP:SOCKSTRIKE ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 06:57, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

• Support - Romanized names without hyphen are better as North Korea section says "North Korean sources exclusively use the unhyphenated romanization".--とんずらする豚 (talk) 08:19, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom and evidence provided, and per those above. BD2412 T 13:10, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Evidence cited shows the North Korean romanization is more common. Even if it were a close question, Kim Il Sung etc. are themselves commonly used names clearly satisfying the WP:criteria and will confuse no anglophone reader. Finally, WP:Global supplies further support. Where we can do so consistent with other principles, we should adopt a country's "proper" usage. This such a case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JArthur1984 (talk • contribs) 14:33, April 7, 2023 (UTC)
• I think the nominator makes a good argument, but I must ask, what will be done with other North Korean names? If this is really the way North Korea romanizes them, they should be moved too. I wouldn't support if it was just these three pages, that would be too big a consistency violation for me to ignore. --Quiz shows 14:35, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

  While I do think the default style for article titles of North Korean people as a whole needs to be re-examined, I don't think moving just these three for now would create any sort of inconsistency. After all, we have Syngman Rhee, Gojong of Korea, Yun Posun, and a whole host of other Korean names that aren't necessarily 'consistent'. :3 F4U (they/it) 14:59, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, mainly procedurally. I think the nomination makes a good point, as I said above. But Im still not comfortable with only changing a few names. If unhyphenated romainzation is the preferred North Korean form, this should just be standard for all articles. While the nominator has pointed out that there are other "inconsistent" names, I would not say it is the same situation. With Syngman Rhee and Yun Posun, there were RMs that agreed that a unique format was the common usage, as opposed to here where it is a larger overhaul as part of what is accepted by North Korea. --Quiz shows 16:20, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
• Support — I support a convention change for all North Korean names. The official North Korean format seems to be commonly used for other notable North Korean figures as well, such as Choe Ryong-hae and Ri Sol-ju. Yue🌙 23:46, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
• Support for all. Unhyphenated names are what Koreans themselves use when giving their names in English. Mztourist (talk) 03:40, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

  @Mztourist: not all of it, please establish one of consensus via RfC for unhyphenated names on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Korean). Surveyor Mount 03:54, 10 April 2023 (UTC)WP:SOCKSTRIKE ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 06:57, 14 April 2023 (UTC)