EricLeaper_FIBArk_x264.

ERIC LEAPER: Eric, E-R-I-C, Leaper, L-E-A-P-E-R.

INTERVIEWER: Great. And your title. You’re an author, what’s the title of
your book?

ERIC LEAPER: Public rights on rivers.

INTERVIEWER: Excellent. And you are a FIBArk participant?

ERIC LEAPER: Yes.

INTERVIEWER: From? Do you know what year, first year to the last year, you’ve
participated?

ERIC LEAPER: That’s hard to remember but I'd say about ‘69 through the 70s and 80s.

INTERVIEWER: Okay. So … okay. We’ll figure out something, maybe we’ll just say
FIBArk participant.

ERIC LEAPER: Okay.

INTERVIEWER: Competitor?

ERIC LEAPER: Competitor, yes.

INTERVIEWER: Okay. That’s good. Alright. Well, so just look at me, look at my
eyes….

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ERIC LEAPER: I also direct the National Organization for Rivers; I’m Executive
Director of the National Organization for Rivers.

INTERVIEWER: Okay, that’s a good title.

ERIC LEAPER: The website NationalRivers.org talked about public rights on rivers.

INTERVIEWER: Okay. Lots of titles to choose from.

ERIC LEAPER: Your choice.

INTERVIEWER: Okay. Good. Well, let’s talk about FIBArk When and how did you
first hear about FIBArk and get involved?

ERIC LEAPER: I heard about it when I was in high school and it was legendary and
already, it had been going on for years. People that I learned to kayak from had come
here in the 50s, I came in the late 60s and we knew that it was….Oh, I guess just the
setting with the massive mountains all around and the big river, the length of the race, it’s
sort of the only marathon length race, and, of course, we knew about the ancient Greek
marathon being 26 miles and this being the same idea on water and that near the end of it,
you had to paddle through Cottonwood rapid with great surging waves that would be very
hard to do at that point. So, it was legendary since there was no Internet and it was hard
to find out about things, other than going to explore it. The boats, the kayaks, we made
them ourselves out of fiberglass, there were no plastic molded kayaks in the stores, you
couldn't buy them at any store. The paddles, we got a wooden dowel at the lumber store
and then had a simple kayak blade mold that we put the dowel in and mold and put the
fiberglass over the dowel and repeated that process at the other end. So, it was homemade
equipment. We sowed the spray colors together. First, out of nylon material, like you'd
use on a ski parka and then later out of the neoprene, that was a new thing to use,

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neoprene, like skin diver outfit. So, we made the spray covers ourselves. We made the
rim around the kayak that holds the spray cover in place by putting a piece of garden hose
there on the unfinished kayak, taping it in place with masking tape and then forming the
fiberglass around the garden hose.

INTERVIEVER: Wow.

ERIC LEAPER: Some of those old fiberglass kayaks are kind of stuck to the wall here
in Salaida, along F Street, including the one with a big S on it, that stands for Saida, it
was the company of Joseph Saida Vica, a Hungarian refugee who came to San Diego and
made fiberglass kayaks. That, as far as the fiberglass kayaks, my father had a fiberglass
boat making place on the coast in California that made 40 foot sailboats. So, I was used
to working with fiberglass since before I first met Dan Rivers. But the, you know, it's so
much easier to make a fiberglass kayak that you can put on your shoulder and carry down
the street or put on top of your car as compared to a 40 foot sailboat that needs to be
anchored at a dock. But the technology is the same; it's just far smaller scale.

INTERVIEWER: Unbelievable! So, can you start off a sentence and say… So, did you
actually compete in ’69 at Downriver?

ERIC LEAPER: Yes.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

ERIC LEAPER: I think so.

INTERVIEWER: So, can you…

ERIC LEAPER: I think so. I mean, the records must be here somewhere, I don't think
anybody is keeping them.

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INTERVIEWER: Well, if you can say, “I first started competing in 1969 at a
Downriver,” and then, talk to me about what you remember about the first, and it could
be the first time or the first few years even and just sort of what you remember.

ERIC LEAPER: Right. I first started competing in 1969 in [inaudible 00:04:53] and the
Downriver and in those days, the river through town was just a single wide river, there
weren't the rocks sticking out from the edges to make the eddies and the different
interesting features. There were no holes in it but it was a continuous sheet of water and
the water was high in the middle of June. It was thousands of cubic feet per second. It
was fast, it was hard. I can remember you know in [inaudible 00:05:21], you take 2 runs
and my second run was after 7 in the evening, after having gotten out there at the first
thing in the morning to practice on the course. So, it was a hard pushy course and these
kayaks, of course, being fiberglass and they were all 4-meters long, which is just over 13
feet. And so, they were harder to turn, kind of like the old skis, the old straight skis of
those days. So, it was tiring. And … So, that was the [inaudible 00:05:59] and then, of
course, the Downriver was the next day. So, it was a lot. It was a lot to do but it was, you
know, it was exciting, it was new. The town did not have, there wasn't the riverside park,
there wasn't the live music, there was not much of a carnival or anything else was. It was
a boat race in those days and there wasn't even a concrete path along the river so, we sort
of struggled through the mud and dirt, there were still trains going by in those times. And,
you know, it was still a mining town, to a large degree.

INTERVIEWER: And where else could go to compete in White water or anything in the
United States in those days?

ERIC LEAPER: There were other races in other places but this one was more known, it
was in a town rather than just being a temporary sport along the river like other races. It
was a bigger place, there was more going on, there had been prizes, and there were
prizes. A friend of mine from Southern California, Art Viterelli, who won the race a
couple of times, won the Downriver race, he races or was racing at the time in the ocean

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so, year round season, in Southern California, he was able to to race and practice and win
handily. And … So, I guess it was just a different field than the smaller races.

INTERVIEWER: You got to say that one more time just because that was something
nice to say.

ERIC LEAPER: I guess it was a different field than the smaller races at temporary
locations on other rivers.

INTERVIEWER: Perfect.

ERIC LEAPER: Also, this is a bigger river than most of the other rivers that are used for
kayaking in Colorado and neighboring states; particularly when it was flowing high
before global war. It's, this is incredibly low water compared to what it was in those
times.

INTERVIEWER: So, did you ever… Did you have a place in any of the competitions
you did?

ERIC LEAPER: Not at the top but I worked to get as good as I could do. There were a
lot of people. There were dozens and dozens of competitors.

INTERVIEWER: So, talk a little bit about how you’ve seen FIBArk grow from when
you first started coming in the 60s and you come, have you been coming every year or at
least, every few years?

ERIC LEAPER: About half and half.

INTERVIEWER: Maybe you could say, “I’ve been coming to FIBArk,”

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ERIC LEAPER: I’ve been coming to FIBArk since those days and I guess what's
changed the most has been the boats made out of polyethylene. This flexible plastic
material, they can bounce on the rocks, they can bounce on the holes. With the
fiberglass, it had a little give but basically, if you hit something, you had to patch it. So,
there was a lot of duct tape used as a temporary patch and then fiberglass sanding and
applying a fiberglass patch. So, kayaking was almost half the artisan side of it, of keeping
the boat in repair. Of course, the generation before that, the boats had been canvas over a
wooden frame. So, it was even more so. The first people that came here were racing in
boats that were like that, wood and canvas. Of course, the canvas was waterproofed with
some sort of paint on it. And then, they had the Kayaks that were fiberglass whole, the
bottom half, and a wood and canvas top. And I guess also, you know, that there was this
feeling that you were in contact with the people who had developed kayaking in Germany
and France. Of course, the kayaks originated in Alaska but they were not popular in the
United States until after the Germans and French had developed them from the late 8300
through the early 9900s. So that when this race started three years after World War II,
both Germans and French came and raced against each other. It was just shortly after
World War II so, Walter Kerschbaum was a noted German kayaker that was here and and
explored the canyons of the rivers throughout the West in a sort of half fiberglass half
canvas kayak and then, Roger Paris, in French it's pronounced Roget Paris, who was a
leading French kayaker and canoeist who had... both of them had competed in Europe
and done well in Europe. And then, they came here because it was sort of the unexplored
Western United States. So, for them, it was a whole new place to come run rivers that had
basically never been run before.

INTERVIEWER: So, talk to me about Roger Paris.

ERIC LEAPER: He was that…. He grew up in, during World War II, when the French
Resistance, he was part of that as a child, as a teenager. It must have been scary. And he
came after the war to Colorado and liked it and still lives not far from the Crystal River in
Western Colorado. He lived in California for a time and taught people kayaking there in

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the Sierras, on the rivers in the Sierras, then lived in Colorado for decades until the
present and taught hundreds of people to kayak who in turn taught others.
INTERVIEWER: So, tell me that he taught you and was he the first one to teach you
or…?

ERIC LEAPER: Not the very first but the first to do it with, I mean, at a more advanced
level as opposed to just a real basic level.

INTERVIEWER: So, can you maybe tell me a sentence like, you know, “Roger taught
me from,” you know, from whatever years it was to whatever years or was it for one
season or how long?

ERIC LEAPER: It was in parts of two years but then, we didn't…

INTERVIEWER: Was it in the 70s/60s?

ERIC LEAPER: Yes. Late 60s and 70s.

INTERVIEWER: Can you actually tell me that in a sentence? That, “Roger taught me
some Kayaking skills,” or something, I don’t know, make a full sentence for me.

ERIC LEAPER: Roger taught me how to kayak down rivers with substantial rapids
starting in the late 60s and it was hard, you know, the boats were fragile and the rapids
were twisty and the boats didn't turn as easily as they do now. And so, going in rapids
today, which would be considered mild, was a big deal then. And it was important to
maneuver; it was kind of a [inaudible 00:14:10] all the time because you didn't want to
hit anything, you didn’t want to bump any rocks or run into anything that would severely
damage the kayak. And in later years, I in turn taught lots of people how to kayak
including people that went on to the Olympics and the World Championships and other
events in various countries. I guided trips in Chile and Argentina for ten seasons.

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We explored the [inaudible 00:14:50] river and the [inaudible 00:14:52] river.

INTERVIEWER: So, who were the Olympians that you taught or that you worked with?

ERIC LEAPER: Chris [inaudible 00:14:59] was in the Olympics, John Fishburn was in
the World Championships, Nancy Wiley who has been a prominent racer for years and
years.

INTERVIEWER: So, what is it that you love about kayaking? Just describe the feeling
or the energy. What is it that you get out of it?

ERIC LEAPER: But of course a river is a- I guess it's this moving surface. It's like
skiing but as if the whole ski slope were alive and moving. So, it's all moving forward
and you need to move with it and avoid the obstacles that are coming at you and you
can’t control the speed particularly. I mean, to some extent yes but basically, you must
be, you must get with the program, get with the river and go and do what needs to be
done and handle any problems that come up and avoid the dangerous places without
delay. So, it's much more absorbing than ocean sailing. It requires much more attention,
much more physical reaction, using the whole body and people think about well, it’s in
your arms but it's just a lot of waist and balance and putting the kayak at the right angle
all the time as it's doing all the maneuvers. And so, it's just a highly absorbing sport game
all in one. Also, the fact that the scenery keeps changing. You're going through places
that are in some cases not accessible by other means. If it's down in a canyon or down in
a steep gorge or a valley surrounded by trees, you go through places that can't be seen
hardly other ways except little pieces of them, if you walk in for fishing or something.
And so, it's a way to travel. And kayaks, you know, the versatility, whether it's crossing a
long flat stretch where you have both sides to paddle on or whether you're going through
big waves in a river or in the ocean. So, you can handle both flat, calm, long quiet places
and violent, churning waves, extreme action. When we started exploring the [inaudible
00:18:06] river and the [inaudible 00:18:09] river in Chile, crashing wave’s tremendous
amounts of water, they hadn't been explored before. So, there's a need to be cautious to
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not get into a situation you can't get out of but there's also this tremendous draw of going
into these sorts of hidden canyon places with overhanging trees and in some cases,
beautiful flowers hanging off the banks.

INTERVIEWER: It’s perfect. So, talk to me about how FIBArk has changed from like
say this year, which is the 70th anniversary, versus when you were coming in like 60s and
70s. How has FIBArk changed?

ERIC LEAPER: I guess, you know, it's become public entertainment with a colorful sort
of plastic. You know, the boats are made of plastic which means that they bounce around
and the public is used to seeing that and their competitors are used to the freestyle type
competition and it’s not the athletic, it’s athletic in a different way, it’s not the sort of out
in the wild type of thing that it was then and, you know, so, the sport is more accessible
because the kayaks can be purchased now and they are relatively maintenance free and it
comes with all the paddles and life jackets and spray covers. We used lifejackets that
were, what should have been on a boat out in the ocean. They weren't made for kayaking
in those days.

INTERVIEWER: At least, you used one. I mean, they didn’t use them in the 40s when
they started.

ERIC LEAPER: Yes. Even in the 60s, we didn't use them all the time.

INTERVIEWER: Can you actually say they didn’t use the life jackets all the time
because they didn’t hear my question?

ERIC LEAPER: Even in the 60s we did not use lifejackets all the time because they
were awkward, the floatation wasn't particularly good, we thought well, like a wet suit
vest or jacket is almost as good as a life jacket, you know, it stays on better. Remember
the life jackets for boats; it’s just kind of tied on in a way that it tends to get in the way.

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It’s not a particularly, you know, those old fashioned lifejackets were not particularly
good at keeping you afloat. They would tend to ride up and get in your way and slip off.
So, it was sort of a mixed blessing type of thing. So, yes, we didn't use them all the time
but on the other hand, we were very conscious of rescuing each other all the time. It was
considered a team effort to get from the put in on the river to take out without an accident
or a problem or a sunken kayak or

INTERVIEWER: Is there anything else about how FIBArk’s changed from them to
now?

ERIC LEAPER: There was not live music in those days, there was no band shell, and
there was a quiet park. There were, you know, the people from town turned out to watch
but it wasn't the carnival situation and Downtown Salaida didn't have the restaurants or
the art galleries. It was more of a mining town and there were gas stations right
downtown, not like today, car dealerships right downtown, there were bars there, you
know, the alcohol flowed freely, that’s one thing that hasn't changed, there was no
hooligan race, that would have been considered too high risk. There were hardly rafts.
The rafts didn't get going until the mid 80s. There were hardly any rafts. In those days,
rafts were in Utah and in Arizona and some part of Idaho but hardly along the Arkansas.
So, there weren’t many boats on the river. And it was considered a high risk sort of thing.
So that's where the teamwork came in and the needs to maintain your equipment and
maintain your ability to self-rescue and rescue each other particularly without good life
jackets. So, it was a different feel and the town had much more of an isolated feel. Of
course, in those days, we didn't have internet and we didn't have the sort of movies and
pictures and things that we have now that make it accessible to the public, make it a
public event. There was no program for the local young people to kayak.

INTERVIEWER: Well, that’s a big part of their work now. So, that’s good. Well, this…

ERIC LEAPER: I think they would have considered the river to be something to avoid.

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INTERVIEWER: Too dangerous, yeah. And that is definitely my going to sort of a sub
story in just how the river’s changed and perceptions of the river change. Well, this is the
70th year of FIBArk so, we’re doing the sort of historical documentary. So, what would
you say is the legacy of FIBArk? What we learn from the people who put it together 70
years ago now or, I don't know, what do you think the legacy of FIBArk is?

ERIC LEAPER: To a large extent, the people who started it off as just sort of a lark, a
race down to Canyon City and just sort of almost a cookie idea but sort of, I think without
having, presumably, without having any idea where it was going to end up, they sort of
acted as a incubator or a beginning ground for the sports of rafting and kayaking
throughout the West and nationwide because it gave people a chance to get together,
compare their different kayaks and of course, the beginnings of the rafts and in those
days, there were canoes and so, sort of compare the canoes and the kayaks and it created
a place where people could learn about what other people were doing in isolated places.
You know, they're big, no Facebook or internet or anything. When we drive down the
highway and see another car with a kayak on top of it, we would stop and try to figure out
who it was and compare notes.

INTERVIEWER: That's our next interview. So, we were just finishing up.

ERIC LEAPER: Sorry.

ERIC LEAPER: So, I repeat that line?

INTERVIEWER: No, you got it out before the [inaudible 00:26:20]

ERIC LEAPER: Okay.

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INTERVIEWER: So, are there any other final thoughts that you'd like to share about
your time at FIBArk over the last, goodness, many many many decades?

ERIC LEAPER: Well, I guess just to finish that thought about about the influence, just
creating something that attracted those German and French kayakers to the western US.
That was, that turned out to be the beginning of like throwing a pebble into a pond and
the ripples that went out, you know, all the people, all the river running that developed
from those first few German and French kayakers who came here because it was here and
because they'd heard about it in a pre internet world. So, they knew that it existed, they
knew it was a race to come to, I guess there was prize money, you know, there was an
incentive to come and they came and that in turn caused both Roger Paris and Walter
Kerschbaum to continue living in Colorado, to immigrate to Colorado permanently and in
turn, teach people in Colorado and California and around the West. I, in turn, moved to
Utah for several years and taught people. And of course, other people went to Idaho and
Arizona. And so, from around those beginnings, from this unusual odd race in the Rocky
Mountains, run by people who sort of hardly, I think wouldn't have gotten in the river
themselves, but thought it would be a neat thing to host and from that beginning, you had,
I think, a major foundation in the development of running rivers nationwide. Since those
days. So, that was the, that's the legacy. That's the legacy. The sort of unintentional
legacy. Rafts were being developed in Utah and Arizona and people were running rivers
and rowboats in Southern Utah. Rivers and the rapids are farther between. You can do it.
The kayaking got going here, to a large extent, and spread.

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