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Make your own Stone Veneer?
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12-13-06, 02:37 PM #1
Join Date: Dec 2006

DidItMyself
Posts: 8
Members
Make your own Stone Veneer? related products
I ran across a website that sold me rubber molds to make stone veneer. I was suprised that they sold me 14" Heavy Duty All C
less than 100sqft of molds. I tried to buy from another company and needed to buy at least 100sqft of Turbo Multi Purpose
molds to get started. I just wanted to make enough stone to complete my 2200sqft project so I got a Diamond Saw Blade
20sqft package of rubber molds. Cured
$ 133.50
I was going to pay $7 a sqft for Cultured Stone but after doing the numbers...hmmm...I couldn't afford it.
Making my own stone cost me roughly $1.13 cents sqft including labor. I used a high performance concrete 18" Heavy Duty All C
mix in order to get 4 castings a day out of my molds, as opposed to the standard 1 time a day. That gave Turbo Multi Purpose
me 80sqft of stone per day so I was able to finish in about 1 1/2 months. I actually had to make around Diamond Saw Blade
2230sqft of stone since some of the stone were undesireable due to air-holes...but I fixed that. Cured
$ 227.50
Real World Bottom Line:
16" Heavy Duty All C
2200sqft job using Cultured Stone @ roughly $7sqft would have cost me $15400.00. Turbo Multi Purpose
Diamond Saw Blade
2200sqft job making my own stone @ $1.13sqft costs me $500 for the molds and another $2486 for Cured
materials/misc. items. I spent roughly $3000 to make my own stone veneer and saved roughly $12400.00. $ 183.50
find produc
I sent a picture of the finished project to the folks that sold me the molds so it might be posted on their site
under the Parson Residence. If someone else has expirience making stone veneer or any tips or tricks you
can pass on...Im all ears cause Im getting ready for another project.
Last edited by the_tow_guy; 12-14-06 at 04:08 AM. Reason: Removed potential advertising link.
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12-13-06, 03:31 PM
Join Date: Mar 2005

Concretemasonry
State: MN
Member
Posts: 5,373
Raw materials?
A few questions:
What kind of a high performance mix? - high early cement? accellerator?
What kind of aggregate did you use? All normal heavyweight or did you use some lightweight?
Did you use any pigment to get different colors? If so, what kind of pigment - powdered iron oxide, liquid
iron oxide, organic, other? Spray mlds with pigment before filling?
Did you use anything to make the concrete air entrained?
Looking forwar to seeing the completed photos.
Right now the selection of patterns and colors available and will be until Owens and others can get more
plants built. The vinyl siding is so boring and temporary looking, it has caused a boom the cultured stone. newsletter sign-up
Dick Email address:
sign up
12-13-06, 03:55 PM #3
Join Date: Mar 2006

Tscarborough
State: TX
Member
City: Austin
Posts: 1,400
Stone of DIY quality sells for a couple of bucks a foot around here, and Eldorado goes for 5, with Cultured
Stone being the best and most expensive at 5-7$.
Considering the labor of mixing small batches of concrete and attempting to get a decent range of color and
quality, I wouldn't think it is worth it.
Let's do it step by step:
1. Apply color slurry to mold

2. Mix concrete
3. Pour concrete
4. Clean mixer and slurry tools
5. Wait 2-4 hours
6. Pop and stack stone
7. Clean and prep molds
Return to step one, 4 times a day for 28 days, 10+ hours a day. Your labor must be cheaper than mine.
2 of 20 6/12/2012 3:04 PM
12-13-06, 05:39 PM #4
Join Date: Dec 2006

DidItMyself
Posts: 8
Members
Im aware of the low cost "alternatives" to Cultured Stone, Eldorado Stone, etc, that can be purchased for
as low as $3sqft. As you know, the quality is horrible and the colors are just as bad (At least around here).
Being able to make stone for myself provided me with the option to spend more money on ingredients than
a manufacturer would since I was not trying to mass produce at a product at a cheap price. I was able to
customize my colors and also make what I needed and be able to make more when I needed too. I wanted
to make something that would put the most expensive stone veneer to shame and thats what I did.
Even if I purchased stone @$3sqft, I would have still payed roughly 2.5x more than doing it myself. I'm not
rich so saving a few thousand dollars and producing a great looking customized product is very significant
for me.
I used a High Performance Cement - Grey - that was half of my cementatious material. The other half was
a Type 2 Portland and a Natural Pozzolan which prevents effloresence and reduces how much water I need
to use. My mix came out to 7000+ PSI @ 28days...way over the code requirments.
I tried to get pumice as a lightweight aggregate but couldn't get it in small quantities. So I opted to use
Masonry Sand and Pea Gravel as my aggregate. The weight wasn't that much different after the stones
cured, were still within building code and went up fine.
To color my stones I purchased powdered iron oxide pigment from the mold company. I decided to use an
integral color so that my stones wouldn't reveal the unatural interior when it was chipped or cut. I
alternated my integral colors so that I would be able to get accent colors from the leftover residue of the
previous color. That made the stones look great with nice accent colors as well as cut down on having to
clean the molds.
2 people can do it with no problem at all. 1 person can do it with a little hard work.
That includes the following:
1. Laying out the molds: 5minutes

2. Spraying Mold Release: 2Minutes
3. Making Concrete Mix (While the other guy is laying and releasing the molds)
15minutes
4. Pouring the mix into the molds: 10minutes
5. Setting Time for stones: 45minutes
6. Popping and palletizing the stones: 30mintues
7. Start the process again.
8. End of day we cleaned the mixer which took 10mintues.
(Properly Calculating your mixes will prevent excessive waste which will cut
down on Mixer Cleaning intervals and time)
We were able to start the process again every 1.5hours. We could have done more than 4 pours in an 8
hour shift but why rush if you dont have too.
I will be working on a marbling technique for the next batch of stone I am working on. These will be used
on a fireplace. I'm already guessing that i will spend roughly $1.5 a sqft to achieve the colors I want. Its
great to be able to customize this stuff....they told me I would get the stone making bug, I guess thats
what I got!
Thanks for the responses and am looking forward to more.
12-13-06, 06:04 PM #5
Join Date: Mar 2006

Tscarborough
State: TX
Member
City: Austin
Posts: 1,400
I am not familiar with a high perfomance cement, what is the name of that? Type II goes for around 8
bucks a bag, and their mix design calls for a six sack mix, plus the pozzolan and high performance cement.
How many SqFt did you get per yard, and what did the pozzolan cost you?
Also, if the pop out time was 45 minutes and you only cleaned the mixer at the end of the day, I would
hate to see it's condition now. Regardless, even at 80 SqFt per day in 5 hours, my time is still not worth it.
I am glad it worked for you, but for someone doing it on weekends and evenings, your time frame would
not apply. More like 6 months to produce 2200 SqFt.
If you are going to do it, you should buy enough molds to equate to your batch size. That will also help with
creating a non repeating pattern.
3 of 20 6/12/2012 3:04 PM
12-13-06, 06:21 PM #6
Join Date: Mar 2005

Concretemasonry
State: MN
Member
Posts: 5,373
Thanks for the information!
When you say "high performance cement", I assume this is a high early strength portland (Type III) based
on the setting time. Especially quick since the pozzolanic is a retarder.
Alternating color batches works well once you get past the first two batches.
You can easily get lightweight aggregate. The type will depend on your location. This could reduce the
weight slightly, but also can make the stones easier to lay. In some cases, it can make them more durable.
In the east, your pumice would have been white and available from any number of concrete block plants if
you talk nice. There are many very good manufactured lighweights with gray to tan colors. The best ones
are distributed up and down the Mississippi River from Louisian to Minnesota and across the south. If you
have contacts, you may even be able to get manufactured lightweight fines with a round particle shape
(uncrushed). In the west you can get many different type of natural lightweight aggregates (pumice,
scoria, volcanic cinders, etc.) in a wide range of colors. The colored aggregates can cut your pigments costs
and offer some nice natural variations.
Dick
12-13-06, 06:37 PM #7
Join Date: Dec 2006

DidItMyself
Posts: 8
Members
Not worth 5 hours a day for roughly 30days to save over $11,000+????
It takes longer than 30 days to get already made Cultured Stone! Actually it can take up to 2-3 months to
get your order from the majority of major stone veneer suppliers. Hmmm...make my own stone....or buy it
for $11,000+ more and wait forever to get it....hmmm....if I need more Cultured Stone I will also need to
wait another 1-3months to get it...hmmm...that could have added up to 4-6months to complete my
project...hmmm....not for me!
A Do It Yourselfer can appreciate DIY stuff like this. I did this in my spare time and loved doing it and got
better results than buying stone.
As for the condition of the mixer, since our batches were calculated properly, its just as good as new aside
from the standard mixer scratches from mixing course materials like aggregates and sand. All you would
need to clean the mixer is to add a 5 gallon bucket worth of water and just let the mixing paddles spin for a
couple minutes to clean itself. Im not sure what kind of techniques or concrete mixer you use to mix
concrete but my technique is working fine and is cutting down on the need to clean after every batch. I
would suggest trying it out first before knocking it. Taking time to calculate your batches will help you a lot.
The reason why you have to clean your mixer after every batch is the simple fact that you have too much
left over concrete which is a result of not calculating your batches right....simple as that. Anything else can
be simply cleaned as mentioned above.
Last edited by DIYaddict; 12-14-06 at 09:07 AM. Reason: Removed unrelated/off topic statement
4 of 20 6/12/2012 3:04 PM
12-13-06, 06:53 PM #8
Join Date: Dec 2006

DidItMyself
Posts: 8
Members
Hello Dick,
I used a standard High Performance Cement that was bagged locally. Actually the bagging company gave
me High Performance cement in Plaster Bags (Guess they wanted to use them up). Next time I'm down
there I will ask them exactly what it is. I was turned onto the high performance cement by that supplier
because they have another customer that uses high performance cement to cast fireplace mantels. He
thought it would work for me too and it did pretty well.
Without adding the pozzolan (Type 33 Natural Pozzolan -Volcanic Ash) to the mix we had problems with the
mix setting too fast. Luckily the pozzolan slowed down the setting time and gave us enough time to work
with it.
I'm going to take your suggestion to contact a block manufucturer for lightweight aggregate...GREAT
SUGGESTION...I was at a road block in regards to the lightweight aggregates. THANKS A MILLION!
12-14-06, 04:21 AM #9
Join Date: Feb 2001

the_tow_guy
State: FL
Group Moderator
Posts: 10,213
The thread has been edited to remove the links. Please read the forum rules.
Measure it with a micrometer; cut it with an ax.
5 of 20 6/12/2012 3:04 PM
12-14-06, 10:22 AM #10
Join Date: Mar 2005

Concretemasonry
State: MN
Member
Posts: 5,373
DidItMySelf -
I was very interested in your claims to have developed a new method to manufacture veneer. That was the
reason for my questions to determine the materials and process to overcome the always present mold
turn-around problem. Only time and conditions will determine the suitability of the veneer.
I don't know if you sell/promote mold kits or did it your self, but you are definitely wandering around in
uncharted waters. I say this based on your description on the process, materials used and the supposed
properties of the stones.
If you made the stones, it is obvious that you were guessing and/or relying on false information or a lack of
information. The result is that you have veneer units of questionable value. It is possible that you live in
the right climate and got lucky. You certainly have not made units that match the quality of those from a
national producer and you may have mislead others to make the same mistakes and theirs may fail
because of the process, materials and conditions.
It is stange you have never mentioned any standards regarding the materials to be used or the
performance of the units themselves. The American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) is an
organization dealing with these of requirements. In fact, almost every product or material made or used
follows these standards and methods of testing to insure repeatability.
The cement you used is in all likelyhood not permited in most concrete products. You probably bought
some sort of adultered cement not meeting any quality standard. The old game of playing with gypsum to
give some false properties was a cheap, common way to get cement to set. The downside is the durability.
It is a cheap way to quickly get some concrete out the door and sold without regard to future performance.
It is not designed to be durable, so I hope you live in a warm dry climate and keep the sprinkler off the
wall. Your mold supplier was very negligent in not providing you with better information.
Natuaral pozzolans are very touchy or dangerous to work with because the the range of properties. You did
not give an exact description or specifications for the pozzolans, but did mention Type 33. By a stretch of
immagination this could be referred to ASTM C33, which is an aggregate specification. A product could be
referred to in this standard, but that does not necessarily mean it is permitted in your product, especially in
the amount you probably had to use to change the setting time. An excess of pozzalans can lead to many
problems like long term (not intial) efflorescence and reduced durability. You apparently had to use a large
amount to slow the setting of the "doctored" cement.
Both of the above items are the reasons it takes more than a "back-yard" cook to come up with a good
product that will perform well. All of the marketed products are designed for durability and are tested for
long periods for freeze/thaw and wetting/drying performance. This is because they are worried about the
future and not just one isolated job. This is especially true for masonry products where the cost of
installation is so much more than the material cost/savings - They cannot afford failures and problems.
DIY is usually an method to save money by using a person's own labor to give a professional job.
Re-inventing the wheel and developing different products that lead others to possible failures should be left
to private research.
Your testing had no bearing on the product quality, was meaningless and probably not accurate. The
mention of 7000 psi exceeding the "standards" has no importance, especially for a veneer. I don't know
how you sampled and tested the concrete, but the garden variety concrete cylinder test is ASTM C39, which
is a compressive test requiring laboratory curing and sample preparation. The equipment is costly, so it
must be done in a laboratory and by trained, certified technicians. I don't think you mentioned that this was
done. Typical equipment is a 200,000# to 400,000# testing machine and equipment for the curing and
capping of the samples. The strength has no real bearing on the durability, especially with the materials
used. There are far more appropriate tests, but they are costly and reflected in the retail cost of stones.
I have seen concrete products with a strength of 10,000 psi fail durability tests, while unts with strengths
below 3000 psi performed with absolutely no problems.
I admire your work and tenacity to get the cost of the stone as low as possible and hope it works for you in
your location/climate. I hope it does not lead others to the conclusion that they can do the same without
good, proven materials, instructions and processes that are designed for most areas If it is an interior
mantle, that is one thing, but the exterior of a home in a wet ot cool climate is a different story.
Dick
12-14-06, 12:05 PM #11
Join Date: Dec 2006

DidItMyself
Posts: 8
Members
6 of 20 6/12/2012 3:04 PM
Concretemasonry
I appreciate your input. I'm certainly not a mold maker or a mold salesmen. I just appreciate when a
company can actually help other people save money while making a good product.
In reality, the company that I purchased the Pozzolan from guided me in mixing at correct ratios which is 3
parts Cement to 1 part Pozzolan. The pozzolan I used is an exact replacement to Lime without the side
effects of lime. I'm not sure what your expirience is working with concrete and pozzolans but Im sure you
have not used the Pozzolan I am talking about with High Performance Cement...so you are just guessing.
Not all Pozzolans are alike and many have different reactions when added to a concrete mix. The reason
why I use Volcanic Ash Pozzolan is because that is what the Romans added to cements to build the
structures that are still standing today.
The pozzolanic reaction is slower than the rest of the reactions which occur during cement hydration, and
thus the short-term strength of concrete made with pozzolans may not be as high as concrete made with
purely cementitious materials. Hence the reason why it slows down the High Performance Cements setting
time.
The bottom line is this:
Stone Veneer is just that....A VENEER! Not made to do anything other than be a decorative covering on a
wall...nothing else.
If a DIY'r made stone with even a standard Quikrete Premix Concrete formula, where you just add water, it
will still work just fine and be within code. Not sure what the big fuss is about since you can already make
your own pavers and other concrete products just by using Quikrete Premixed Concrete or something like
it.
Honestly, how hard is it to make a concrete mix and pour it into Rubber Molds to make stone veneer? My 8
year old son is able to do that without instructions...just add water and flick the switch on the mixer!
Even Cultured Stone and other stones available have a problem with brittle batches and low quality stones.
If you dont believe me, go down to a stone yard, dig through the Cultured Stone pallets and see for
yourself. People who have worked with Cultured Stone know exactly what I'm talking about.
Last edited by the_tow_guy; 12-15-06 at 05:26 AM. Reason: Derogatory remarks and comments
7 of 20 6/12/2012 3:04 PM
12-14-06, 01:03 PM #12
Join Date: Mar 2005

Concretemasonry
State: MN
Member
Posts: 5,373
For most people, quality and durability are important properties and values.
You do not make pavers out of "Qikrete" type products, you only make pieces of concrete or stepping
stones. The pre-blended products are very good and are more consistant than what a person can produce.
However, they are designed for specific applications. The weights and density of veneer products must be
compatible with the surface bonding/attachment methods.
Granted, veneer is not a weather barrier, but it must survive (physically and visually) the weather. There is
a long list of exterior siding products that did not turn out to be durable and there were many unhappy
users and lawsuits, even in temperate climates. This is the reason for the amount of money spent on the
research and production on veneeer units.
3:1 cement to pozzolan is too high for any pozzolan if you want real durability. Pozzolans do not do the
same thing as lime. Unfortunately, you are confusing Roman mortars with concrete.
For your information, I do have some information and background on concrete, concrete units, masonry
applications, codes and specifications. I have 40 years experience in manufacturing, design and use of
concrete products. I have worked with manufactured/processed and natural pozzolans in the U.S. and
Europe (Italy, Greece, Canary Islands). I am active on national and international code and standards
committees. Having examined construction and materials in over 35 countries, I have seen many historic
and current applications and have written several papers.
Italians do not build the way Romans did and do not use the same materials today for good reason. The
same applies especially in the northern reaches of the old Roman Empire since the warm climate methods
and materials did not fair as well once you got away from the sunny Mediterranian.
I am concerned with providing correct information for those that follow the forums. Nothing is worse than
spending a great deal of time and effort on a DIY project and find out a year or two later that it is not
suitable for the application or location. All too often a project concept is sold as being easy, but local
technical support is inadequate or can mislead a person when confronted with different materials and
CLIMATES.
I am sure the appearance of your veneer is to you liking and hope it will be durable for your climate. You
certainly thought out and tailored the production to your needs. I just want any veneer to be produced to
be satisfactory for the common severe climates.
Dick
12-14-06, 04:00 PM #13
Join Date: Dec 2006

DidItMyself
Posts: 8
Members
8 of 20 6/12/2012 3:04 PM
Thanks for the honest reply. It still doesn't make what you are saying correct.
Honestly, if you make a piece of concrete to code and set it out on the ground and walk on it for years, do
you think it will break or get damaged? We walk on concrete all over the place, if its ok on the ground
where there is foot traffic and more exposure to the elements it will be ok on a wall with no exposure to
foot traffic. Especially if you seal the concrete...you should know that.
"You do not make pavers out of "Quikrete" type products, you only make pieces of concrete or stepping
stones"
Grammar don't really gonna matter, you know what I mean. Besides, thats exactly my point...making
pieces of concrete that look like stone hence...STONE VENEER...which is a piece of concrete.
I tell you what..make a mix using Quikrete and pour it into a plastic cup. Then take it into the nearest
Materials Testing Lab and have them test it to see if it is within code for Stone Veneer Units...you will see
that if you follow the directions on the bag you will be within code. Shouldn't cost you more than $250 for
the testing. They will tell you that as long as the compressive strength is there you are within code and
provide you with the certified results to back it up....simple as that.
Even if you use the worst possible mix, in the most extreme enviroments, there is always a concrete sealer
to solve the problem of damage to concrete due to climate conditions.
Like i said, quality and durability are there and is tested and proven. The Compressive strength of concrete
is an absolute indicator of good concrete. With good compressive strength you can almost always bet that
the concrete was made right and will withstand the elements.
Besides...take a look at the stone veneer being sold by major manufacturers...its usually crap and always
has primary efflouresence. I dont see you complaining about that....hmmm.
The Pozzolan supplier I was and am working with has created concrete mixes for companies that have won
international awards for its the properties that this type of Pozzolan added to the concrete mix. I think I will
take their advice on what ratios to mix since it is there product and they know what it consists of, inside
and out. Until you actually work with this specific pozzolan product you cannot pass judgement. Like I said
before...not all pozzolans are the same and you should know that, being a person of considerable concrete
knowledge that you are.
You are also wrong about the Pozzolan not replacing lime. As a matter of fact there are a few stucco and
masonry companies that use this type of natural Pozzolan to do just that...replace the lime.
This is about making stone veneer which as you honestly must know is extremely simple to do....dont
believe me, TRY IT!
Go do a yahoo search for Stone Veneer Molds and pick any company that is selling stone veneer molds.
Cast some stones, take them in to be tested and then let me know what you think!
12-14-06, 04:39 PM #14
Join Date: Mar 2006

Tscarborough
State: TX
Member
City: Austin
Posts: 1,400
Sir, I think you are misguided. Concretemasonry has lent his expertise to literally thousands of DIY'ers on
this board. To assume that he has an ulterior motive is ludicrous.
Speaking for myself, I daily help DIY'ers in person to fullfil their masonry projects, no matter what they
may be, as well as service masonry contractors, architects and engineers in the masonry field. I visit this
board specifically to help DIY'ers, not to sell them anything. Concretemasonry has me beat in experience,
but I have been involved professionally in the concrete industry for 20+ years, both as a contractor and as
a supplier.
If you would like to discuss actual methods of making faux stone, I would be interested, both because I am
involved in the industry and because I think it is personally a very interesting subject.
12-14-06, 05:47 PM #15
Join Date: Dec 2006

DidItMyself
Posts: 8
Members
9 of 20 6/12/2012 3:04 PM
Tscarborogh,
I'm sure he has tons of expirience in other areas but he has NO experience making his own stone veneer.
He might want to make it sound more complicated than it is but until he does it he cant say anything more
than..."I don't know yet".
You guys may have been right in other forum topics but you are certainly wrong on this one. Experience
triumphs over speculation any day in my book.
If anyone else on this forum has any experience making stone veneer please help me set these guys
straight.
12-14-06, 06:16 PM #16
Join Date: Mar 2006

Tscarborough
State: TX
Member
City: Austin
Posts: 1,400
Actually, I am a commercial masonry supplier. Cultured stone is less than 5% of our business, cement and
CMU are 80% with brick and tools the remainder.
I do have experience with molding concrete on both a large and small scale, and extensive experience with
colored concrete and mortar. As I said, if you want to discuss the technical aspects, I think that would help
the DIY'ers.
Last edited by the_tow_guy; 12-15-06 at 05:33 AM. Reason: Minor deletion of wording
12-14-06, 07:34 PM #17
Join Date: Mar 2006

Tscarborough
State: TX
Member
City: Austin
Posts: 1,400
This is a good start for the technical aspect of making your own veneer stone:
http://www.icc-es.org/Criteria/pdf_files/ac51.pdf
As you can see, the primary limitation is the weight per square foot. Using standard concrete without
lightweight aggregate, and assuming a 1-1/2" thickness of stone, I come up with around 18.75# per SqFt,
dry. This alone exceeds the standard and could cause delamination of the substrate, if not structural
problems.
Lightweight aggregate is readily available in various forms and should always be used for veneer stone.
There is even a bagged concrete mix in national distribution that contains lightweight aggregate and has a
high early and compressive strength to boot.
For a DIY'er this is what I would recommend, since it removes a large part of the guesswork from the
equation.
10 of 20 6/12/2012 3:04 PM
12-14-06, 08:03 PM #18
Join Date: Mar 2006

Tscarborough
State: TX
Member
City: Austin
Posts: 1,400
Here is a breakdown of costs, assuming I was a DIY with none of the tools required for a 2200 SqFt
project:
Tools:
3CuYd Mixer: 400.00

20SqFt Molds: 500.00
Trowels and Misc: 100.00
Total: $1000.00
Materials:
Lightweight Concrete Mix (per CuYd) 162.00

Coloring and release (per CuYd) 80.00
Total: 222.00
Yards required (216SqFt per Yd): 10
Total material cost: $2220.00
Labor:
2 hours per batch @ 20.00 per hour (2200/20): $2200.00
Total cost per SqFt: $2.46 per SqFt
Not bad, overall, though I consider my labor to be worth more than 20.00 bucks an hour and I would
assume at least 10% waste and breakage (probably closer to 20%).
The numbers go up rapidly for projects smaller than this, though, and since most DIY'ers have a job, I still
do not see making your own stone as a viable alternative for individuals. For a small homebuilder, maybe,
for someone looking to sell the product, sure, but a homeowner simply does not have time to expend to
make it work.
Most projects that I sell, other than commercial, are in the range of 70-400 SqFt, and those DIY'ers would
certainly not profit from attempting to do it themselves.
For a select few, it can work, and I would and do encourage them to go for it, just like I do for acid staining
floors and creating concrete countertops.
11 of 20 6/12/2012 3:04 PM
12-14-06, 09:10 PM #19
Join Date: Dec 2006

DidItMyself
Posts: 8
Members
Thats more like it Tscarborough....thats what I was hoping would happen here, real breakdowns and real
discussion.
Good idea to take into consideration the equipment breakdown. I would guess that the only people that
would really use rubber molds like these are those that either do a lot of small projects or larger projects
like the one I took on. I wouldn't suggest making your own stone if you have 1 or 2 small 70sqft
projects...unless you want to customize your color scheme, then thats another story.
In pre-planning I took the weight of the stones (without using lightweight aggregate) into consideration and
I did the following:
I poured my concrete into the molds the same depth as the current industry standard sizes for quick fit
panels (All major manufacturers carry a version) which comes out to roughly 1" thick which made my
stones roughly 12lbs per sqft - saturated.
I would have liked to use lightweight aggregate but couldn't get any unless I was willing to pay for an
entire load.
I wander how staining stone veneer would work. I'm thinking it would be to tedious and time consuming
but I never did it myself. Any ideas?
12-15-06, 04:19 AM #20
Join Date: Feb 2005

Pecos
State: IN
Member
City: Noblesville
Posts: 1,288
It can be done, as any unsealed concrete can be stained. I've done it on poured formliner walls, which are
difficult because 1) they are vertical, and 2) you need to use several random colors to make it look realistic.
Detailing on a standing wall is a pain.
For your veneer, I would suggest staining them in lots while they are laying horizontal. Then, after you seal
them you have several colors that you can lay up in a random pattern.
I used acid stain, which gives a natural look, but has many properties that need to be understood and
addressed. Acid stain color is permanent, while pigmented stains are more like diluted paint, and may
cause color loss in the future.
The stain can be applied with an all-plastic sprayer, which makes it fast and easy.
Pecos
12-15-06, 05:36 AM #21
Join Date: Feb 2001

the_tow_guy
State: FL
Group Moderator
Posts: 10,213
Moderator's note
Let's keep this thread civil as in the last 4 or 5 posts. Any further comments and remarks of a personal
rather than technical nature will not be tolerated.
Measure it with a micrometer; cut it with an ax.
12 of 20 6/12/2012 3:04 PM
12-16-06, 05:40 AM #22
Join Date: Feb 2005

Pecos
State: IN
Member
City: Noblesville
Posts: 1,288
In all this discussion, has anyone mentioned air-entrained concrete in exterior applications? I'm not all that
familiar with stone veneer, but I have been a concrete contractor for 20 years in a freeze/thaw climate. I
have seen countless jobs (not mine) that look good for a few years, then rapidly fall apart because the
concrete was not air-entrained and was damaged by freezing. Likewise, I've seen a lot of jobs that have
popouts and spalling due to absorptive aggregate, called chert, that was in with the batched gravel. Almost
all of these jobs had been properly sealed, and the builders were at a loss as to the cause of the
delamination.
I don't know if air entraining is common practice for veneer, but if it's not, could someone explain why not?
Thanks!
Pecos
12-16-06, 07:23 AM #23
Join Date: Mar 2005

Concretemasonry
State: MN
Member
Posts: 5,373
If you are dealing with wet cast concrete for exposed use in a climate where there is freezing, air entrained
concrete is necessary. You can buy air entrained cement and in some cases you can buy air entrained
pre-proportioned concrete mixes. These usually give you the correct amount of air for durability.
If you are adding chemicals to the concrete mix, you end up with an unknown amount amount of air and
durability will suffer. Adding an excess amount of fines (pozzlanics) will increase the surface area of the mix
and will also reduce the air entrainment and decrease durability. Excessive amounts of pozzolanics and
fines decrease the effectiveness of both the cement and air entraining agents.
If a "super plasticizer" is used, the dosage rate of an air entraining agent must be adjusted to get the
correct percentage of air. This is done at a costruction site using the typical site testing equipment.
Non-wetcast concrete has a different pore structure and air entraining agents are not needed.
Because durability is so critical, air entrainment is one of the most researched items in the field of concrete.
Without a proper air void system, the moisture in concrete can cause deterioration when subjected to
freezing. Higher strength concrete is not a substitute for air entrainment.
Dick
12-16-06, 08:04 AM #24
Join Date: Feb 2005

Pecos
State: IN
Member
City: Noblesville
Posts: 1,288
So Dick,
are you saying that air entraining is needed in veneer, or not?
Pecos
12-16-06, 10:50 AM #25
Join Date: Mar 2005

Concretemasonry
State: MN
Member
Posts: 5,373
13 of 20 6/12/2012 3:04 PM
Make your own Stone Veneer
Several of the sites selling molds recommend the use of air entrained concrete for veneer in areas that may
have cyclical weathering. The ASTM standard is listed as a "work in progress".
It may be possible that some of the manufactured stone manufacturers do not need it if their process is
closer to a zero slump or dry tamp mix and does not react like a wet cast concrete. Of course, the major
manufacturers have huge investments in production facilities ($1,000,000 to $20,000,000 per plant),
research and advertising and have done extensive long term durability testing. In this way they have
developed a process/materials combination for the product to be durable and have the desired properties.
There is nothing to beat the results of long term testing and research.
The cost of the air entraining admixes are a very minor item in the production cost. If they do not use an
air entraining material, they probablt have to use something else to assist in proper mold filling and
uniform density.
Many of the stone manufacturers use lighweight aggregate, which is more costly, to reduce the weight and
permit the use of thicker units for different appearance and still have a surface veneer application. The
good lightweight aggregates do have internal air voids that can help in durability in many cases. The use of
lightweight aggregate requires considerable testing and may require prewetting of the aggregate, so it is
not for the casual user.
Concrete products manufacture can be a very sophisticated process. The increased international influence
on cement plants has contributed to more technical and exotic uses of concrete products. They apparently
see where this can increase the volume by making better products.
Interlocking pavers, which are some of the most durable concrete products and are subjected to severe salt
and freeze/thaw conditions do not use traditional air entrained concrete because they are manufactured
using zero slump concrete and not wet cast concrete. They get performance by maximizing density and
minimizing the anount of potentiall reactive cement paste while still getting 8,000 to 10,000 psi strengths.
Dick
Last edited by Concretemasonry; 12-16-06 at 11:04 AM.
01-01-07, 05:09 AM #26
Join Date: Dec 2006

riyadh
Posts: 1
Members
riyadh muhssen
dear
how you can kindly help me to start producing my veneer stones and to get the molds and the color
technique[recipes] pleas?
regards
riyadh mihssen
iraq-babel-hilla
Last edited by twelvepole; 01-01-07 at 09:08 AM. Reason: Quote removed. Quoting entire post not necessary.
14 of 20 6/12/2012 3:04 PM
04-08-07, 09:17 AM #27
Join Date: Apr 2007

ykhm
Posts: 5
Members
more information please
Would you please kindly provide with some links and more information if is possible please. I plan to retire
and stone making seems like an interesting project for the nearest future.
To DidItMyself: can you tell me what company you purchased molds from please.
I have found several companies some cheap some pretty expensive. For me expensive is more then 5000$
and some companies would sell rubber molds for 12,000+.
At this point information for me is the most important thing. I want to know everything related to the topic.
To Concretemasonry, Tscarborough. You do write like people who can help me with references: books,
websites, manual instructions. I would appreciate if you can write to XXXXXXXXX
Thanks in advance
and regards.
Yuriy
Last edited by GregH; 04-08-07 at 12:58 PM. Reason: Email addresses are not permitted in forums. Please communicate
through the reply button.......More will learn this way.
04-08-07, 01:19 PM #28
Join Date: Mar 2005

Concretemasonry
State: MN
Member
Posts: 5,373
It is possible to make them yourself if you have the correct materials.
It is doubltful you could equal the quality of the manufactured units.
Where are you and what types of lightweight aggregates are available?
Dick
04-08-07, 04:48 PM #29
Join Date: Apr 2007

ykhm
Posts: 5
Members
thank you for the prompt answer Dick.
>It is doubltful you could equal the quality of the manufactured units
I understand that. All I want is to be able to produce something with reasonable good quality.
>Where are you and what types of lightweight aggregates are available?
Please tell me what you think would be a good production cycle in New York area.
04-08-07, 06:11 PM #30
Join Date: Mar 2005

Concretemasonry
State: MN
Member
Posts: 5,373
15 of 20 6/12/2012 3:04 PM
Production cycle depends on how many molds. Why are you worrying about production for a DIY project?
If you are planning to sell them, I would no be interested in helping someone sell lower quality products.
Dick
04-10-07, 06:02 PM #31
Join Date: Apr 2007

ykhm
Posts: 5
Members
>If you are planning to sell them, I would no be interested in helping someone sell lower quality products.
I don't want to sell them in NY, just learn how to produce. I plan to make them in Ukraine where stone
manufacturing seems like a good alternative for my current occupation because it will keep me away from
the computer and market.
Anyway thanks and good luck in your business.
04-10-07, 07:30 PM #32
Join Date: Mar 2005

Concretemasonry
State: MN
Member
Posts: 5,373
ykhm -
I was concerned with encouraging someone to produce lower quality stones and degrading the excellent job
the current U.S. stone producers have done in the marketing, promotion and quality control of
manufactured stone. That is the reason I asked where you were from. The expansion they are talking about
into Europe is one of the first things the concrete industry has brought to Europe in years instead of
receiving technology.
I have been to Ukraine and have also spent a great deal of time in Belarus, which has many construction
and material similarities.
There is certainly a need for a stone veneer as an alternate on the concrete buildings that seem to be the
standard for housing. Cultured or manufactured stone could be an asset to the construction industry if it is
made to a high standard. I do not know what scale you plan to oprate on, but here is some information that
should help a producer planning on a long term operation.
You will need a supply of uniform, quality, lightweight aggregate (Ceramzit or Keramzit - translation is
poor), which is an expanded shale or clay. Most of what I saw was very high quality, coarse and some was
rounded (uncrushed) for the concrete sandwich panel production. It should be possible to get it in a proper
size. It is supplied to the precast concrete apartment component manufacturers. You will also need
concrete sand.
You will also need some pigments (synthetic iron oxide), that probably will have to come from Germany. If
you have contacts in Minsk, they may be able to help you find a source. They have made colored, split
concrete block for many upper level homes. Ask for Alexi (tell him dick says hello if he is there), who was
the director a few years ago. The manufacture of concrete block is not the same as the manufactured
stone, but the materials are the same.
You should also find a supplier of concrete admixtures to improve the properties of the concrete. Most U.S.
suppliers are now owned by European companies, so you should be able to find something available
initially. They can provide technical assistance.
The cement you have available is very good.
I am not an expert on the details of the manufacturing, but the stone mold supplier should be able to give
you information on where to start. If they do not have that information, do not buy from that supplier.
You will have a difficult time producing stone equal to those in the U.S., but they have a few years
advantage.
Good luck!!
Dick
#33
16 of 20 6/12/2012 3:04 PM
04-11-07, 05:16 AM
Join Date: Apr 2007
ykhm
Posts: 5
Members
Hi Dick
>Keramzit
it is something I was about to throw away because nobody would mention it here.
Yes Keramzit that we have is rounded (uncrushed) 1/4-3/4" in diameter and I thought roundness would
compromise the strength of the stone.
We also have scoria from a coal burning electric power station. I thought scoria would be better then
Keramzit it would create uniform mixture, don't you think? Also I was going to search for pumice, but not
sure if it is available there.
Thank you Dick, your information was useful especially about cement and Keramzit .
I plan to start on a very small scale (maybe try to make ledgestone enough for a fence) also I will be
experimenting with natural stones - sand stones and river stones. But the problem with sand stones is that
it is becoming very scarce..
Regards,
Yuriy
04-11-07, 05:31 AM #34
Join Date: Mar 2005

Concretemasonry
State: MN
Member
Posts: 5,373
Your Keramzit should be crushed with a maximum size of 1/4" and the fine dust removed. You will have to
use concrete sand also.
You do not have scoria (translation problem) from the power plant. It is actually bottom ash, the residual
from burning the coal. What I have seen most of it is high in carbon, which is not good. It is probably the
size the keramzit should be.
You will not find good pumice in your area, to my knowledge. The good pumice used in the U.S. comes
from Greek islands. The cost of shipping by water to Odessa or other port and then by truck or rail would
be very high.
Dick
04-11-07, 04:01 PM #35
Join Date: Apr 2007

ykhm
Posts: 5
Members
Dick -
got it - no ash and no pumice.
What would be proper combination of sand, cement and Keramzit?

Sorry I can not tell you property of the cement that we have. You mentioned before it is good enough.
It look like you know a bit about Ukraine. Do you often go there, may I ask?
ykhm
05-08-07, 04:18 PM #36
Join Date: May 2007

RAC400
Posts: 1
Members
17 of 20 6/12/2012 3:04 PM
Can anyone lead me to the correct type and color to be used for the staining of the stone veneer. Also, is
there a time frame after the stone is removed from mold that is need to be stained.
Thanks
10-26-07, 10:10 AM #37
Join Date: Oct 2007

bogdanm
State: CA
Member
City: dublin
Posts: 1
Dan
Hi, I am a new member, after reading everything about stone veneers I still can not understand if it is
possible to make high quality stone veneer in garage. What should I add to concrete
mix if I living in very wet climate . I will be very thanksfull to every one would answer me
Dan
10-26-07, 09:14 PM #38
Join Date: Mar 2006

Tscarborough
State: TX
Member
City: Austin
Posts: 1,400
Anything is possible but your actual question is, "is it probable that I can create high quality faux stone in
my garage" The answer is probably not, or at least not on a practical or cost effective scale. If it is
something you want to try, go for it though.
11-23-07, 08:15 AM #39
Join Date: May 2007

Camilo Sanchis
Posts: 2
Member
hello, my name is Camilo i´m from spain. And i want to know how i have to apply the oxide colours in the
mould. Could you explain me please? thanks
18 of 20 6/12/2012 3:04 PM
01-31-08, 10:55 AM #40
Join Date: Jan 2008

iftekhar
City: Dhaka
Member
Posts: 1
I need your assistance
Hi there,
I'm very much intersted in knowing how to make stone veneers and where I could find the molds needed.
Just a short description would do the most for me.
You have my thanks for assisting me.
Originally Posted by DidItMyself
I ran across a website that sold me rubber molds to make stone veneer. I was suprised that they sold me
less than 100sqft of molds. I tried to buy from another company and needed to buy at least 100sqft of molds
to get started. I just wanted to make enough stone to complete my 2200sqft project so I got a 20sqft
package of rubber molds.
I was going to pay $7 a sqft for Cultured Stone but after doing the numbers...hmmm...I couldn't afford it.
Making my own stone cost me roughly $1.13 cents sqft including labor. I used a high performance concrete
mix in order to get 4 castings a day out of my molds, as opposed to the standard 1 time a day. That gave
me 80sqft of stone per day so I was able to finish in about 1 1/2 months. I actually had to make around
2230sqft of stone since some of the stone were undesireable due to air-holes...but I fixed that.
Real World Bottom Line:
2200sqft job using Cultured Stone @ roughly $7sqft would have cost me $15400.00.
2200sqft job making my own stone @ $1.13sqft costs me $500 for the molds and another $2486 for
materials/misc. items. I spent roughly $3000 to make my own stone veneer and saved roughly $12400.00.
I sent a picture of the finished project to the folks that sold me the molds so it might be posted on their site
under the Parson Residence. If someone else has expirience making stone veneer or any tips or tricks you
can pass on...Im all ears cause Im getting ready for another project.
Closed Thread
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Join Date: Dec 2006

Make your own Stone Veneer? related products

Join Date: Mar 2005

What kind of a high performance mix? - high early cement? accellerator?

Did you use anything to make the concrete air entrained?

Looking forwar to seeing the completed photos.

Join Date: Mar 2006

Let's do it step by step:

1. Apply color slurry to mold

Join Date: Dec 2006

That includes the following:

1. Laying out the molds: 5minutes

Thanks for the responses and am looking forward to more.

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Make your own Stone Veneer?

Thanks for the information!

Join Date: Dec 2006

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Join Date: Feb 2001

Measure it with a micrometer; cut it with an ax.

12-14-06, 10:22 AM #10

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12-14-06, 12:05 PM #11

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The bottom line is this:

12-14-06, 01:03 PM #12

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Make your own Stone Veneer?

12-14-06, 04:00 PM #13

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12-14-06, 04:39 PM #14

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12-14-06, 05:47 PM #15

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12-14-06, 06:16 PM #16

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12-14-06, 07:34 PM #17

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12-14-06, 08:03 PM #18

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3CuYd Mixer: 400.00

Lightweight Concrete Mix (per CuYd) 162.00

Yards required (216SqFt per Yd): 10

Total material cost: $2220.00

2 hours per batch @ 20.00 per hour (2200/20): $2200.00

Total cost per SqFt: $2.46 per SqFt

12-14-06, 09:10 PM #19

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12-15-06, 04:19 AM #20

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12-15-06, 05:36 AM #21

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