T H E $5.

95
In The US

CELEBRATING
THE LIFE & CAREER
OF THE KING!

Issue #18, Jan. 1998 C o l l e c t o r

A “King”-Size
68-page ISSUE
on JAck’s work at
Marvel CO MICS!!

A Rare 1970

Kirby Interview
A 1975
Interview With

Stan Lee
Interviews With
Every Bullpenner
We could find,
Including:

Roy Thomas
John Romita
John Buscema
Marie Severin
Herb Trimpe
Flo Steinberg
George Roussos
Special Features:

Ant-Man
The Eternals
Black Panther
& More
Unpublished Art
including Pencil
pages Befo re
Spider-Man, Sentinels © Marvel Entertainment, Inc.

They Were Inked,

And Much Mo re!!

1996 & 1997

Eisner
Awards
Nominee
Best
Comics-Related
Publication

1997 Harve y
Awards Nominee
Best Biographical, Historical
or Journalistic Presentation
 Issue #18 Contents:
The Great Atlas Implosion . . . . . . . . .4
(Who really created Marvel Comics?)
From The Words & Pictures Museum . .7
(Art from their permanent collection)
A Cap Rarity . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .8
(The earliest Kirby fan sketch?)
The Highs & Lows of Henry Pym . . . .9
(Why didn’t Ant-Man make it big?)
Inking Contest! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .11
(Hurry; the deadline’s January 15th!)
1975 Stan Lee Panel . . . . . . . . . . . . . .12
(Who created the Silver Surfer?)
Roy Thomas Interview . . . . . . . . . . . .17
(A very candid conversation)
Super-Heroes With Super Problems . .26
(The newspaper article that started the
rift between Stan and Jack)
Lee Or Kirby? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .30
(The never-ending question...)
George Roussos Interview . . . . . . . . .32
(“Inky” speaks!)
Centerfold: Captain America . . . . . .34
1997 John Romita Panel . . . . . . . . . .38
(Romita on Kirby, Spidey, and Ditko)
Marie Severin Interview . . . . . . . . . .42
(A few moments with Mirthful Marie)
Flo Steinberg Interview . . . . . . . . . . .45
(This girl’s anything but invisible)
Herb Trimpe Interview . . . . . . . . . . .47
(Comments from THE Hulk artist)
John Buscema Interview . . . . . . . . . .51
(Buscema discusses Stan and Jack)
Kirby’s “Unexpected Constants” . . .54
(Continuity was tough on The Eternals)
In Gods We Trust . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .58
(More on theology in The Eternals)
Monarch Of Wakanda . . . . . . . . . . . .59
(A fan’s recalls The Black Panther)
Jack Kirby Interview . . . . . . . . . . . . . .60
Why Marvel Should Credit Kirby . .62
Collector Comments . . . . . . . . . . . . .64
Back cover inks: Joe Sinnott
Front cover inks & colors: Jack Kirby
Back cover color: Tom Ziuko
Photocopies of Jack’s uninked pencils from
published comics are reproduced here courtesy
of the Kirby Estate and the Pure Imagination
archives. Thanks to Roz Kirby and Greg
Theakston for their continued support.
COPYRIGHTS: Ajak, Angel, Ant-Man, Arishem, Aunt May,
Batroc, Black Panther, Bradford Miller, Bucky, Captain America,
Comrade X, Crystal, Daredevil, Deviants, Don Black, Dr. Damien, Our front cover is an unused Marvelmania poster drawn and colored by Jack, circa 1969. Our back cover is an
Dr. Doom, Eternals, Fantastic Four (Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl,
Human Torch, Thing), Gwen Stacy, Hawkeye, Henry Pym, Hulk, unused Fantastic Four #71 cover (pencils shown above), which Joe Sinnott graciously agreed to ink for us.
Ikaris, Iron Man, Living Laser, Loki, Machine Man, Mad Thinker’s
Android, Mary Jane Watson, Nick Fury, Odin, Peter Parker,
Princess Python, Quicksilver, Red Skull, Rick Jones, Ringmaster,
Scarlet Witch, Sentry, Sersi, Sharon Carter/Agent 13, Silver The Jack Kirby Collector, Vol. 5, No. 18, Jan. 1998. Published bi-monthly by & © TwoMorrows Advertising & Design, 1812 Park Drive, Raleigh, NC
Surfer, Skull The Slayer, Swordsman, Thor, Tomorrow Man,
Vision, Warriors Three (Fandral, Hogun, Volstagg), Wasp, 27605, USA. 919-833-8092. John Morrow, Editor. Pamela Morrow, Asst. Editor. Jon B. Cooke, Assoc. Editor. Single issues: $5.95 ($6.40 Canada, $8.40
Wonder Man, X-Men, Yellowjacket © Marvel Entertainment, Inc. elsewhere). Six-issue subscriptions: $24.00 US, $32.00 Canada and Mexico, $44.00 outside North America. First printing. All characters are © their
• Demon, Mr. Miracle, Orion, Scrapper © DC Comics, Inc. •
Prisoner © ITV respective companies. All artwork is © Jack Kirby unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter is © the respective authors. PRINTED IN CANADA.

3
 In 1957 (cover-date time), Atlas published 75 different titles —

The Great Atlas monthlies, bi-monthlies, and one-shots — during the July through
October period. In November and December of that year they put out
16 (all bi-monthly). So what happened? And who the heck is Monroe
Froehlich, Jr.? Here’s the script.

Implosion
by Jim Vadeboncoeur, based on a story uncovered by Brad Elliott
THE SET-UP:
Atlas, as you may have known, was not really a comics company,
but was in fact a distribution company. The comics were published by
Martin Goodman’s various corporations (Chipiden, Timely, Red
(Brad Elliott was originally hired to produce the Marvel 50th anniversary Circle, etc.) and distributed by Atlas Magazines, Inc.; all legitimate
book that eventually became Marvel: Five Fabulous Decades by Les incorporated entities. Atlas Magazines (wholly owned by the
Daniels, instead of the true history that Brad had envisioned. Brad had Goodmans, Martin and Jean) was paid a fee to distribute Goodman’s
full access to all Marvel records for well over a year and here’s what he comics — profits, profits, profits.
learned about Marvel/DC and the late ’50s.)
f you pay any attention to the names in the Ownership Statements, THE CATALYST:
I you’ll notice that up until 1952, Robert Solomon is listed as the
Atlas Business Manager. In that year a new name appears in that
position: Monroe Froehlich, Jr. Remember him; he created comics as
Monroe Froehlich, Jr. was Goodman’s golfing partner who some-
how finagled himself into the business manager position. He pretty
much had a free rein with the comics, the pulps and the newsstand
we know them today. Honest! magazines, but he was kept out of the distribution end of the business.
For those of you who may not be completely aware of the magni- Being apparently an ambitious sort, he wanted to expand his political
tude of the events of 1957, let me explain exactly what the evidence of base in the company to include some measure of control over distrib-
the comics shows. ution. Arthur Marchand was the man in charge of Atlas Magazines,
Inc. and exerted every effort to prevent this.

THE PLOY:
As Froehlich was frustrated in his attempts to gain con-
trol over the distribution arm, he eventually resorted to some
subtle business maneuvering to accomplish what office poli-
tics had failed to do. He somehow renegotiated the
contract between the publishing arm and Atlas
Magazines so that the latter received a lesser
percentage of the price of each publication
for the distribution service. On paper, Atlas
Magazines, Inc. began to lose money.

THE STING:
Froehlich exploited this apparent
change in the distribution situation to
convince Goodman that he needed to
switch to a national distributor. In the
summer of 1956, when Goodman gave
the go-ahead, Froehlich negotiated a
five-year contract with American News
Co. (the ANC on the covers of so many
comics in the early Fifties) to distribute
comics, magazines and Lion paperbacks.
Goodman disbanded his distribution
system and Froehlich was apparently
“king of the hill.”

THE ZINGER:
American News Co. was Mafia-
connected and under investigation by the
government for less-than-legal transactions
of some sort. (ANC was into a lot more
than periodical distribution — restaurants,
for example — and it was there the troubles
lay.) Rumors flew that ANC would soon be
out of business. Even before the contract,
Arthur Marchand had tried to warn
Goodman of the potential problems, but
he was viewed as merely playing in office
politics against Froehlich.
4
 THE CRASH :
American News Co. assumed the distribu-
tion of the Goodman line Nov. 1, 1956. Six
months later, American ceased operations. Not
having time to re-establish his old network,
Goodman was forced to lay off the entire staff
with the exception of Stan Lee, while he
searched for an alternative distributor. It took
about a month (corresponding to the October In the mid-1960s, Jack was asked to create poster art for the “Toys For Tots” campaign put on by the
1957-dated books). US Marine Corp. The annual campaign collects donations of toys and distributes them to needy
(Note: Brad Elliott has discovered records children at Christmas. On the previous page is his original preliminary pencil rough for the poster;
which show that the cover dates of Atlas titles on the back of that art, still in pencil, are rough drawings of several little elf-like creatures (an example
were not totally accurate. During any given is shown on this page). Shown below is the final art from his first attempt, and above is the final art
that was eventually used on the poster.
month, shipments could include books with
cover dates spanning three months. We hope
to eventually show that books like Dippy
Duck, which has an October 1957 cover date,
were actually shipped with the August and
September books.)

THE AFTERMATH :
Goodman did find himself a distributor. It
was DC-owned Independent News Co. They
agreed to take him as a new account, but the
terms were tough indeed: Independent would
handle all of Goodman’s magazines, but Lion
Books had to go (Independent News was
already handling New American Library), and
since DC wasn’t about to support its biggest
and more successful rival, Independent News
insisted that only eight comics per month
could be accommodated.
Goodman and Lee opted to use that allot-
ment to publish 16 bi-monthly titles. The first
eight (Gunsmoke Western, Homer the Happy
Ghost, Kid Colt Outlaw, Love Romances, Marines
in Battle, Millie the Model, Miss America and
My Own Romance) came out dated November
1957, the second batch (Battle, Navy Combat,
Patsy and Hedy, Patsy Walker, Strange Tales,
Two-Gun Kid, World of Fantasy and Wyatt
Earp) in December. With inventory on hand
to fill 75 titles, Lee simply cancelled 59 of them
and hardly bought a story for over a year.
Most 1958 material was produced in 1957.
5
 was due to fan

THe Highs And response to the

anthill story,
or the fact that
during this

Lows Of Henry Pym

A Look at Kirby’s Ant-Man/Giant-Man, by Mike Gartland
time Lee (or
Kirby) was in
a “bug” kind
of mood (there
was also “The
hen I was asked to write an article on Ant-Man, I realized I

W never really gave much thought to the character — and neither,

it appears, did anyone else. Therein lies the basic flaw in the
character of the Ant-Man: Fans were interested... but not very.
Man in the
Beehive” story
in Suspense
#32 and the
First of all, why make a super-hero out of a character the size of an
debut of
insect? I’m sure anyone familiar with Ant-Man already knows that he
Spider-Man
started out as scientist Henry Pym, who shrank himself down, and got
approximately
trapped in and escaped from an anthill in a then throwaway fantasy
one month Dr. Pym’s first appearance from Tales To Astonish #27.
story “The Man in the Ant Hill,” published in Tales to Astonish #27, Jan.
before the
1962 (approximately the same time FF #2 appeared). Lee plotted the
Ant-Man introduction), or the fact that DC had successfully re-intro-
story and the art was by Kirby/Ayers. (Dick Ayers remembers sending
duced the Atom, a six-inch super-hero, in Showcase. Since the artwork
Stan a note back with this story, telling him he found the concept of a
is submitted approximately (but not always) six months before the
man in a world of insects intriguing.) But the scripting (dialogue and
cover date/month, the Ant-Man story would have been drawn shortly
captions) was by Stan’s brother Larry Lieber, one of the unsung heroes
after Showcase #36 — the end of the Atom’s debut run — and Lee
of early Marvel. Lieber scripted many of the early Ant-Man stories.
may have wanted a tiny super-hero in his growing stable of stars.
Shortly after this story was published, Lee began the task of con-
In any event, the Ant-Man debuted in Tales to Astonish #35
verting his “monster comics” into super-hero magazines. Perhaps it
(Sept. ’62), on the rack with FF #6, Hulk #3, and
Journey into Mystery #84 among others. The Ant-
Man costume was clearly a Kirby creation, and it
never looked as good as it did after the first splash
page. The chest emblem was designed to resemble
a huge ant, complete with head, thorax, and legs.
The helmet was beautifully reminiscent of an ant’s
head with antennae and mandibles. The boots
were also unique inasmuch as they appeared to
be designed for treading underground, and were
never used again after the first issue. Sadly, over
time (and with the frenetic pace Kirby was
working under), the costume became a diluted
version of the original, with the boots resem-
bling the gloves, the helmet sometimes without
antennae, and the ant emblem becoming simply
a large black ball on the hero’s chest.
According to Lieber, Stan named the char-
acter Ant-Man, but Larry came up with Henry
Pym — just as he came up with Don Blake,
Tony Stark, and other characters whom I grew
up with, never realizing the creative input of this
quiet man. Larry Lieber was the principal
scripter not only in Ant-Man’s introduction, but
also in Thor’s, Iron Man’s, and the Human Torch’s
in Strange Tales. Stan gave Larry the scripting
chores on the monster comics that became hero
comics, not to mention the many westerns,
romance, and fantasy stories he was scripting at
the same time. If anything, this should make him
just as important in launching these characters
as Stan and Jack were; remember when you go
over these classic stories, the words were by
Lieber.
Perhaps the reason Ant-Man had problems
finding an audience was the premise; a super-hero
the size of an insect was interesting, but not
sustainable over the long run. The early Ant-Man
stories were a good read and Kirby’s visuals
Splash page from Tales To Astonish #35. Note the ant-like symbol on Ant-Man’s chest. were entertaining; it had to be a challenge to
9
 Excerpts From The
1975 Stan Lee Panel
Held at the 1975 San Diego Comic Con
(Special thanks to Kevin Shaw, and especially Carl Taylor
for providing a tape of this panel)
(Editor’s Note: We weren’t able to bring you a new interview with Stan this
issue as we’d hoped, so we’re presenting this panel, which was held shortly
after the announcement that Jack was returning to Marvel in 1975.)
STAN LEE: Thank you, culture lovers. (laughter) I hate to listen to
speeches; that’s one of the reasons I hate to make speeches. I don’t
want to make this any more unbearable for you than it has to be. I’m
equally inept at any kind of speaking; it doesn’t matter what I talk
about, I do it badly, so I might as well talk about what you’d like
to hear. Does anybody just want to shout out something they’d
like to hear about, so at least I’ll know I’m saying something
that at least somebody wants to hear?
AUDIENCE: What about the Silver Surfer? Unused Kirby art for MarvelMania International.
AUDIENCE: How did you get started?
STAN: All right, let’s do it that way. How did I get started, and then would ask Jack, “Are you comfortable? Do you want some more ink?
we’ll segue into the Silver Surfer. (laughter) When I was a kid, many Is your brush okay? Is the pencil all right?” And then Joe would go out
decades ago... just to show you how things never work out, I wanted and yell at me for awhile, and that was the way we spent our days. I
to be an actor. They had something called the WPA Federal Theater; was a gofer; I’d go for the coffee, for the broom, for Jack’s cigars. They
it was part of Franklin Roosevelt’s NRA New Deal. It was to keep guys also let me write some copy. Little by little, when they found out I
off the streets from stealing hubcaps and so forth, and they set up little could spell, and I knew which end a sentence to put a period at, they
theatrical groups. I joined one; Orson Welles was also a part of this started exploiting me, (laughter) just the way I’ve done with Marv
thing, and many other big names. The only thing is, the other guys Wolfman and everybody else over the years. (laughter)
stayed with it, but I had to make a living and it didn’t pay too well, so After awhile, Joe and Jack, for reasons that history will one day
I got a lot of very, very exotic jobs in writing, because I was always record, left Timely Comics. The publisher, a stalwart named Martin
pretty facile at it. Goodman who owned the company and all that his eye beheld —
I got one job writing obituaries for a news service; obituaries of namely me at the moment (laughter) — looked around at his vast
famous people who are still alive. When a celebrity dies, an hour later empire. He saw this one skinny kid with a broom in one hand, and a
there’s a special issue of a paper, and his whole life story is in the paper, typewriter in the other, and he said, “Hey, where’s the rest of my
and you’ve probably wondered, “How did they ever write this so fast?” staff?” And I said, “I’m it.” At that time I was about 161⁄ 2, and he said,
Well, that thing’s been on file for years. Guys like me have been writing “Somebody’s got to edit these books. Stan, can you hold down the job
them. I kept the job for a few months, and I quit because it gets very until I get somebody else?” I think I was offered a half-dollar more a
depressing writing about living people in the past tense. (laughter) I week, and to me that was like gold — it still is — and I said, “I’ll take
gave that up, then got another very glamorous job writing publicity it.” So he went off into the outside world to seek another editor, and I
for a cancer hospital. (laughter) I gave that up after a few months. was now Stan Lee, Boy Editor Pro Tem. It’s lasted ever since then.
Then I heard there was a I’m going to tell you a story there’s really no reason to tell, except
job open at Marvel Comics, I’ve got to kill a few minutes here somehow. Years ago, I was doing
which was then called Timely some work for a film, and a guy from the Hollywood Reporter, which is
Comics, for a reason that a motion picture trade magazine, came to hear me. Now if you think
nobody’s figured out. Jack Kirby I’m dull standing up here, you should’ve heard this guy! He’s doing an
and Joe Simon were practically the interview that’s going to be published in the Hollywood Reporter, and
whole staff, and they... I better these are the questions he’s asking me: “How do you spell you name?
watch what I say, ’cause I never When were you born? Where do you live?” and other stimulating
know; Jack may be here. I’m facts like that to intrigue and entrance the reading public. I said, “I’ve
not noted for always telling got to jazz this up somehow.” So he asked, “Where did you get your
the truth, but at least people start?” So I told him this fascinating and enthralling story about
don’t usually catch me at it. Martin Goodman, and Joe and Jack Kirby, and me being the only one
But Jack may remember there. And I saw him writing half asleep, and I wanted to jazz up the
this, so I’ll be careful. story a little bit, so I said, “About thirty years ago, I was told the job
(laughter) Anyway, he was temporary. He never told me it was permanent, so as far as I
and Joe were virtually know, Martin’s still out there looking for another editor.” Ha-ha.
the whole staff. Jack (laughter) So the guy wrote it down. (laughter) This’ll teach you never
sat at a table behind a to try to liven up an interview when some dullhead is writing it. This
big cigar, and he was is the way it came out in the Hollywood Reporter: “Stan Lee lives in
drawing. Joe stood New York City and is the editor of Marvel Comics. He’s been there for
up behind another 30 years, and presently his publisher is looking for a new editor.”
big cigar, and he (laughter) So that taught me, “Stan, a comic you’ll never be.”
12
 There was another deep, meaningful question hurled at me; in it is to look at a drawing and suit the dialogue perfectly to the expression
quivering tones, I heard someone say, “What about the Silver Surfer?” of the character’s face — to what the drawing represents — than to
I would like to answer in kind: What about the Silver Surfer? (laughter) try and write perfect dialogue when you’re looking at a blank sheet of
Actually, the Silver Surfer is one of my really true great loves, next to paper, trying to imagine what the drawing will be like. So it worked
being up here talking to you. (laughter) I did not really create the Silver out as the fastest way to work. It also gives us the best results. And
Surfer. Those of you who are historians or archivists, take note. Jack you’re all sitting there thinking, “What does this have to do with the
and I were doing the Fantastic Four, and we came up with this plot; Silver Surfer?” (laughter)
something to do with Galactus and our usual crazy stuff. I was telling Here’s what it has to do. Jack and I had discussed a story dealing
Jack, he wasn’t listening, and I wasn’t paying attention to what I was with Galactus. All I remember is we were saying, “We’ve already had
saying. He went off and drew something. The way we worked, for those Doctor Doom, we’ve already had Sandman, and all these powerful vil-
of you who don’t know, is not the way they work at other companies, lains. What can we do to top what we’ve done? The only thing to do is
where the writer writes a script, and it’s given to an artist, and the get a villain who’s practically a god... who doesn’t want to conquer the
artist draws it, and that’s the end of it. With us, it’s a marriage of talents. earth; a villain who destroys whole planets!” Well, that sounded good.
(laughter) The artist and the writer will dis-
cuss the plot together, then the artist goes
off to his little nook where he works, and
he — without benefit of script! — only
with this vague, ridiculous plot that he’s
discussed, goes and draws the whole story
all by himself.
In the early days, I was writing scripts
for virtually all the books, and it was very
hard to keep all the artists busy; poor little
frail me, doing story after story. So I’d be
writing a story for Kirby, and Steve Ditko
would walk in and say, “Hey, I need some
work now.” And I’d say, “I can’t give it to
you now, Steve, I’m finishing Kirby’s.” But
we couldn’t afford to keep Steve waiting,
because time is money, so I’d have to say,
“Look, Steve, I can’t write a script for you
now, but here’s the plot we’ll use for the next
Spider-Man. Go home and draw anything
you want, as long it’s something like this,
and I’ll put the copy in later.” So I was able
to finish Jack’s story. Steve in the meantime
was drawing another story. Then Don Heck
would come over and say, “Hey Stan, I need
something to do.” I’d say, “Well, I can’t
write it for you Don, but here’s the plot for
Iron Man, you go and draw it, and I’ll put in
the copy later.” That way I could keep five,
six, ten artists busy; they were drawing, and
as they’d bring in the strip, I’d put in the
copy. Okay, it started out as a lazy man’s
device — or maybe a guy who just didn’t
have enough time — but we realized this
was absolutely the best way to do a comic.
Because any artist who really belongs in
this field — and of course our artists do —
is a storyteller himself. He tells stories with
pictures; he has imagination, he knows
continuity, he knows how a story should be
told. So if he just knows what the general
plot is, the idea is: Let him go home, let him
draw the things that he thinks are the most
interesting. Don’t have the writer say, “Panel
one will be a long shot of Spider-Man
walking down the street.” The artist may
see it differently; maybe he feels it should be
a shot of Spider-Man swinging on his web,
or climbing upside-down on the ceiling or
something.
So following the basic plot, the artist
draws it. Then, when the writer has to put Unused page from either Fantastic Four #17 or #23, based on the mention of “Dr. Doom’s robot” on the page.
in the copy, just imagine how much easier It’s inked by George “Bell” Roussos, and if it’s from #17, this was probably his try-out for the inking chores.
13
It was easy for me to say it; now it was up to Jack to go home and draw (laughter, applause) Thank you, ye of great faith. (laughter) I think you’ll
it. (laughter) I don’t remember; Jack may have come up with the name admit we’ve been making great progress, as evidenced by this overflow
Galactus, or I might’ve. I probably wanted to call him Irving. (laughter) crowd. Pretty soon, we’ll probably bring the Surfer back. I don’t have
The thing came back, and lo and behold, Jack had Galactus, and I loved the time to write it, and I’m too rotten a person... I’d just as soon
it. Well, I love everything Jack does. I’d look at these drawings and I nobody else do it, because it’ll probably become a big hit, and I don’t
couldn’t wait to start writing the copy. All of a sudden, as I’m looking want anybody else to become more famous than I am. (laughter) I was
through the drawings, I see this nut on a surfboard flying in the air. talking to Jack about it. Maybe we’ll do a big super-special one-shot
(laughter) And I thought, “Jack, this time you’ve gone too far.” (laughter) issue; maybe a 200-page Silver Surfer story. We’ll sell it for five bucks,
And under his cigar, Jack said, “No, no, Stan. I figure anybody like and print it in hardcover, and exploit the hell out of the public like we
Galactus, who’s that big and powerful and travels through space, needs always do. (laughter, applause) You know, the usual: Silver Surfer t-shirts,
a herald.” That was about as logical as anything else we’ve ever done, Silver Surfer toothbrushes. (laughter) We’ll probably take a year or
(laughter) so I figured the Silver Surfer will be the herald. But now comes two to do it. Jack’ll do ten pages an hour as he usually does, and I’ll
the part that makes Marvel Marvel! We didn’t make him a herald who probably write ten pages a week. Sooner or later, we’ll get it finished.
said, “Hey, there’s a nice place. I think I’ll sit down there and have a Actually, I have a terrible problem. I don’t know what I am.
smoke.” (laughter) We made him a herald who said, “This planet is a Sometimes when strangers say to me, “What do you do?”, my first
virtual paradise. Why don’t men realize the
glories that they have all about them? Why do
they wage war when they should make love?”
and other typical Stan Lee profound sentiments.
(laughter) Somehow this naked, nutty charac-
ter... I didn’t even realize he was naked until
the third issue, y’know? (laughter) Who pays
attention? He was naked in a very unique way,
which we’ll get into later when we have our
adult session. (laughter) Anyway, I figured if we
could get away with this, we could get away
with anything.
Well, the readers loved the Silver Surfer,
they loved Galactus, they loved everything.
After awhile... my memory is bad, and Marv
can probably tell you later on if you stay after
class. I don’t know how it happened, but Jack
was doing his Fantastic Fours and his Thors and
this and that. And we were getting mail: “Why
don’t you give the Silver Surfer his own book,
his own movie, his own world, his own every-
thing?” (laughter) John Buscema had joined us
prior to that, and we were looking for a new
script for him, and we decided to do a whole
book just of the Silver Surfer.
Here’s what happened: The older readers
loved the Silver Surfer. He became a cult figure.
Every time I’d lecture at colleges, one of the
first questions was, “What about the Silver
Surfer?” But the younger kids, the very young
ones... we still need a lot of young kids to buy
our books, because we have to sell 72 million
a year, and there aren’t enough intelligent
older readers to keep us going. (laughter) So I’m
dependent on the intelligent younger readers.
We lost a few sales. It didn’t sell as well as our
other books. We got more fan mail on the
Silver Surfer than on virtually any book we had.
It was mostly from older readers. So I had a
conference with my then-publisher who said,
“Y’know, we ought to downgrade the stories a
little. Let’s make them a little more simple.
Stop using thirty-syllable words, Stan. Let’s
make the stuff simpler, and get more action and
fighting and stuff, and then it’ll sell better.”
For once in my life, I was ethical and true
to my convictions, and I said, “Aahh, to hell
with it. I don’t want to change the Silver Surfer;
he’s too pure and beautiful. Let’s wait until
we’ve upgraded the tastes of the whole human
race, and then we’ll bring him back again.” Pencils from Machine Man #6, page 3.
14
 TJKC: When did you get into fandom?

Roy Thomas Interview Interviewed by Jim Amash

ROY: Comics fandom only really got started in early 1961, with Jerry
Bails starting Alter-Ego and Don and Maggie Thompson starting
Comic Art at almost exactly the same time. It began to get going in
late 1960 when Jerry and I got in contact, even though the real impetus
(Roy Thomas was born November 22, 1940. His involvement at the begin- was him, not me. I was like Robin to his Batman, Tonto to his Lone
ning of 1960s comics fandom led to his eventual employment as Stan Lee’s Ranger. (laughter)
assistant editor at Marvel Comics in 1965, and a lengthy career as one of TJKC: Did being involved in fandom lead to meeting people like Kirby?
comics’ most prolific writers. This interview was conducted by phone in ROY: No, not really. I did exchange letters with a few people here and
September 1997.) there, including Julie Schwartz, Gardner Fox, and Otto Binder, whom
THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR: When were you first aware of Jack’s I call the three patron saints of Alter Ego. I was only helping Jerry by
work? writing articles, so I wasn’t doing a lot of corresponding with other
ROY THOMAS: It must’ve been fairly early after the war, when Joe professionals. The first pro I ever met — in the Spring of 1965 — was
and Jack started up again in 1946 or ’47. I recognized the names Wendell Crowley, who had been the editor of all the Captain Marvel
“Simon & Kirby” along with Joe Kubert’s name as artists; I recognized comics. He’d gone into the family lumber business after Fawcett folded
both their styles, although Jack was imitated by more artists. And its comics line. He came through St. Louis and called me up, because
who knew what was Simon and what was Kirby, or still does exactly? we’d exchanged one or two letters. I skipped school, (laughter) and we
I felt their stories were better written than most, and they certainly split a pizza that day. He told me I was an old man, getting into the
had their own unique style. business at age 24, (laughter) compared to him and all the people that
started in the forties. I guess at 24, maybe I was. I’d already had four
TJKC: Did you read their romance comics in the late 1940s? years of another adult career.
ROY: I’m sure I saw the artwork and recognized the style, but I wouldn’t
necessarily have picked those up, just like I didn’t generally TJKC: You were a teacher, right?
pick up Joe Kubert’s war comics, although he is my ROY: Yes, which I think is kinda good. I think too many people nowa-
favorite artist in many ways. days wander into comics as writers and artists, and they have no idea
what the rest of the world is like, and I had a little of that anyway.
I remember my only contact with Stan Lee in those days was a
letter I wrote him; I’d missed an issue of Spider-Man (#4 or #5), and
mentioned that I was going to hunt it down, and he kindly sent me a
copy and a little note. It was the only contact we ever had up until I
went to work for him. He was aware of who I was and what Alter Ego
was, but he wasn’t the same kind of correspondent as Julie and
Gardner. They’d write occasionally, and that was all I’d expect; I
understood they were busy with other concerns.
TJKC: Stan was busy being an editor, too.
ROY: Yeah, editor and writer; he was working pretty hard.
That’s one reason I didn’t ask him for a job. Who’d have
thought he needed any help? He looked like he was happy
doing everything himself.
TJKC: How’d you finally get that job with Stan, and meet Jack?
ROY: I only worked for DC for a couple of weeks in 1965, and I jumped
ship to Marvel when Stan offered me a job, because I was
unhappy working for Mort Weisinger. Of course, people
didn’t come into the office that much, and at Marvel,
much less than DC. Marvel didn’t have much in the
A mid-’70s way of offices; just three or four little rooms. Stan’s
fan drawing.
office was as big as everything else put together, and
Sol Brodsky, Flo Steinberg, and Marie Severin were
crowded into two other little rooms. There was some-
body else who was working on commercial comics,
who was sort of half a comics person. Steve Skeates had
been working there a week or two before I came in, and was soon
gone. That was really about it. There were not many people working
there, so people just brought in their work. Ditko and Stan weren’t
speaking by that point. So Ditko would come in, deliver his
stuff to Sol, Sol would take it in to Stan; it was a very
weird, strained atmosphere. Jack and Stan were still
getting along pretty well. They’d go out to lunch
together occasionally when Jack would come in. I
was introduced to him, but I don’t remember “the
day I met Kirby.” But I was well aware of his impor-
tance, and from the first issue of Fantastic Four I was aware that
he had been half of the Simon & Kirby team, even though the original
credit in FF #1 was only for “J. Kirby,” and Stan Lee had his whole
name credited. Jack’s name got abbreviated for some reason.
17
TJKC: We see a lot of that. We saw a lot of “S. Ditko” too. (laughter) fire, and Stan always considered it an important turning point in his
ROY: Some people said Stan did it because his name was so short, relationship with Jack. But there’s no way to prove that or straighten
and he didn’t want anybody’s name to be longer than his, (laughter) it out. How do you say, “I didn’t do it. I wasn’t responsible for what
but I don’t think so. I don’t know how it happened; it wasn’t happen- this reporter wrote.”?
ing when I came there. Within a few years, Jack had moved out to California, as one of
There were only a couple of Kirby-related incidents I really the first comics people to do that. His status was such that he could
remember about that first year or two. One of them was a lunch, and afford to do that, and Marvel would keep working with him, even if
I don’t think Stan was there. I may have had lunch once or twice with Stan was probably reluctant to see him leave, for the lack of personal
Stan and Jack and a couple of people, but never with Jack by himself. contact. Once Jack moved out to L.A., I didn’t have much more con-
I remember this one lunch with Jack, and probably Sol Brodsky and tact with him. I do have this weird memory that I’m sure about,
John Romita and Frank Giacoia; five or six of us. This was one of the though it’s a bit vague. It was after Jack moved out to L.A. At some
relatively few times Jack had lunch with us, as opposed to Stan. The stage, Stan called me into his office, and told me Jack had some new
only thing I remember from that lunch, besides nice anecdotes and characters he wanted to do, some new concepts and ideas. And Stan
being with an entertaining guy, was somebody asking, “What’s going was very happy wanting to keep Jack on Thor and Fantastic Four. I’ve
to be the next big thing in comics?” Super-heroes had been going for always had the feeling that it may have been Jack thinking of offering
years; what’s next? Jack said, “I don’t know any more than anybody Marvel things like the New Gods.
else, but the one thing I can tell you is, it’s not gonna be me, and it’s It was not that much longer after that that he quit. I know Stan was
not gonna be Stan Lee. It’s gonna be two guys in a garage some- very upset, and a little depressed when he called me and Sol into the
where, coming up with something, just like Siegel and Shuster office to tell us Kirby had just called to quit. When he quit, he was
did.” I think of that from time to time, when I see something already working for DC. He had already set up everything else before
like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles come out. There’s a cer- he even told Stan he was thinking of quitting. I think this is because
tain amount of truth to that, that these things come out of Jack bottled it all in, so when he quit, he had to do it as a clean,
nowhere. And it’s as likely to be done by an unknown total break, with no niceties. You can see where almost any-
as it is by an established professional. body would be upset in that kind of circumstance.
The other incident I remember was one
TJKC: I take it Stan didn’t see it coming.
of the seminal problems that I know Stan has
ROY: Well, he knew there were some difficulties,
always felt led to — not exactly a final break
but he certainly didn’t see it coming that Jack
between Jack and Stan, but heaping more
was quitting, or I never got any indication of
coals on the fire of animosity that Jack
it. Ditko wasn’t a great surprise, because
felt, I think more than Stan, probably
after all, they weren’t speaking, and one day
because Stan’s position was more secure.
Steve walked in and just told Sol he was
Jack was the key artist. No one was
quitting. Sol was sitting there with a memo
going to replace him, but on the other
on his desk to give Steve a raise of $5 or
hand he had no real secure situation like
so a page, or whatever they could afford,
Stan. There was a big article in the New
so it wasn’t a matter of the money. He
York Herald-Tribune, where some reporter
just wanted to quit. But with Jack, he
came in and interviewed Stan and Jack.
sort of bottled it up, and Stan knew
For some reason, I was called in to be a
there were problems, but he didn’t
witness or whatever, because I certainly
know how deep they ran.
took no part in it. We’re talking within
Some of the problems were
six months or a year of when I
about what should be done, or
started there. Stan is always “on,”
shouldn’t be done, which is a
and he’s promoting Stan, but
matter of opinion. Some people
he’s also promoting Jack. I saw
are so rabidly pro-Jack that any-
that, y’know? And Jack would
thing Stan does is automatically
jump in with his own pronounce-
seen as being the work of the
ments, and Stan strides around,
devil. (laughter) Stan is being
and Jack just kind of sits there, but he was
castigated for every time he
eloquent enough in his own way. And the
asked Jack for a correction, like
reporter is more interested in Stan, but at the A Chic it’s automatically wrong. And
same time is talking to Jack. And then the Stone-inked it isn’t. Stan was the editor; he
article came out, which of course Stan didn’t Thing was responsible for quality
have any prior approval of. The article drawing for control. Production manager
is somehow very unfavorable toward a Marvel
ad, circa Sol Brodsky would get very frustrated
Jack. It talks about him sitting there
1964-65. if Stan wanted Jack to do a correction,
in a Robert Hall suit, and Stan saying
because Jack just wasn’t good at correc-
something, and Jack falling off his chair in
tions. The thing about Jack is, he had seen
glee. It sort of put down Jack in a way that made Stan
the thing already in his mind before he drew it. To him, drawing was
very embarrassed, and Jack very upset. Stan always had the feeling that
almost like photographing the strange, realistic world that he saw
Jack felt Stan had somehow maneuvered that. And other than Stan
inside, which was his genius, his talent. For somebody to tell him, “Can
being Stan, and Jack being Jack, and this reporter having his own agenda,
you change this facial expression?” or do a different arm or something;
I just didn’t see any of that. There was no jockeying between Stan and
it’s like telling Jack to forge a photograph, almost. It just wasn’t the way
Jack as to who was the top person, but of course Stan was the editor,
he saw it. That’s why John Romita and other people would be asked to
and he’s the person who was doing the writing, and he’s a little more
do faces on Jack’s art.
eloquent in speaking, maybe, than Jack was. But it was just one of those
I know I was happy when Jack finally did one Conan cover for a
unfortunate situations that I think really did heap a lot of coals on the
18
reprint that had Conan and Elric on it.
Stan had John Romita do the face over,
so it still wasn’t quite a Kirby drawing.
It’s annoying; as much as I love Romita,
I wanted to have a Kirby face on that
cover. I know it wasn’t me who had it
changed. It was usually either Stan who
had a drawing changed, or Romita
might change it on his own, knowing
that Stan would want him to change
it. John was very good at anticipating
Stan, and sometimes when people
thought Romita was changing it on
his own authority, he was doing it,
yes. But he was very good at anticipat-
ing what Stan wanted him to do,
which is why he stayed art director
until the time he retired.
Aesthetically it’s impossible to say
“Stan was right” or “Jack was right.”
Maybe sometimes it wasn’t handled
as tactfully as it could have been.
Mostly, Stan would just have people
do it. If Jack had been there, they might
have talked. But because Jack was off
in California, I think these things
festered more than they needed to,
because they never got together to
talk it over. The distance didn’t help
that situation.
TJKC: Especially on Thor, a lot of
1960s covers Jack did were rejected.
ROY: Stan didn’t talk to us when he had
a cover done over. Stan had his own
ideas of the covers, and he was ulti-
mately responsible for them. So it was
his right, and maybe if Jack had been
there they could have talked it over,
but increasingly, as Jack was out of
the area, they couldn’t even do that.
TJKC: So you think the distance led to
the deterioration of the relationship?
ROY: I think it did, although the fact
remains it could’ve gone to pieces
anyway. After all, Jack went to work
for another company and was equally
distant from them. Within a couple of
years, that relationship floundered as
well. Despite Funky Flashman,
Houseroy, and the whole thing in-
between, when I was out there in the
summer of 1974 for the San Diego Pencils from Thor #147, page 4.
convention, several people — Jack
and their son Neal and probably Roz and maybe someone else — got what mean-spirited.” I said to Jack, “I don’t take the Houseroy stuff
together with me to my surprise to talk about the possibility of Jack that personally, because you don’t know me. My relationship to Stan
coming back to Marvel then, about a year before he actually did. It was somewhat like what you said, and partly it’s just a caricature
didn’t quite come to anything just yet, but it was obvious that within because I was there. And the name ‘Houseroy’ is clever as hell, and I
that three or four years, the bloom was definitely off the rose at DC, kinda like it.” I’m even a sympathetic character because I got tossed to
too, and Carmine was now the enemy, as he was to many other people. the wolves. (laughter) But I said, “We can get past that. Stan would
Again, I’m not saying whether Jack was right or wrong; at some stage, love to have you back; he never wanted you to leave.” The only thing
when Jack got tired of trying to talk to people, or he didn’t feel he could, is, a month or two later I left myself, and it took several more months,
he’d just move on to something else. And all I could say to Jack was, and I was gone by the time Jack actually came back.
“The only thing between you really is that Stan was a little hurt about TJKC: There was a mention in Rocket’s Blast ComiCollector that Jack
the way you left, but that’s not a big deal. And the Funky Flashman was thinking about coming back as early as 1972, and would take
stuff bothered him a little bit, because it seemed, to Stan at least, some- over X-Men.
19
 Super-Heroes With Super Problems by Nat Freedland
Originally published in the New York Herald Tribune Sunday Magazine Section on January 9, 1966
(Editor’s Note: This is the article that, as mentioned in this issue’s Roy Stan Lee drew a bigger audience than President Eisenhower
Thomas interview, was a turning point in the relationship between Jack when he spoke last year at Bard, one of the hippest schools on the
Kirby and Stan Lee. The interview for this article probably took place in Eastern Seaboard. Co-ed dormitories! From the Ivy League to the
November or December 1965, due to Stan’s comments about Federico Pacific Coast Conference, 125 campuses have their own chapter of the
Fellini returning “in January.” The art that accompanied the article was “Merry Marvel Marching Society.” The M.M.M.S. is at Oxford and
from the cover of Fantastic Four #49, and the page mentioned in the first Cambridge, too.
paragraph is from Fantastic Four #50, cover-dated May 1966, which Pre-college Marvel fans at times have taken to assembling on the
would have been on newsstands about the time this article appeared. The corner of Madison and 58th Street, waving wildly with homemade
plotting conference at the end of this article was for FF #55, an issue just signs whenever anybody appears at the second-floor windows of
after the most prolific period of new character creation on the series. Steve Marvel’s three workrooms. “Like we were the Beatles or something,”
Ditko also quit Marvel Comics around the time this article saw print.) Lee muses.
In terms of the real world, all this adulation means that Marvel
n the drawing board is a big oaktag sheet recording the Fantastic

O Four’s last-ditch struggle to save Earth from being “drained of all

basic elements” by the godlike villain
Galactus. One picture shows cosmic
circulation has tripled in three and a half years. With an annual circu-
lation of 35 million, Marvel (which puts out 17 super-type comic
books) is now a comfortable number two in
the comics industry, gradually edging up on
force rays bombarding Manhattan. 1978 Hulk fan
drawing. the long-established Superman DC line.
Stan Lee, chief writer-editor of Marvel
No other comic book publisher can
Comics, tells production man Sol
show anything like Marvel’s phenom-
Brodsky, “It’s not clear that the
enal sales growth in the Sixties. A
rays are hitting now.” He thinks
secondary harvest of promotion
for a few seconds and then
tie-ins is starting to bloom, too.
pencils in “ZIK, ZIK, ZIK” at
Forty thousand Marvelites
the points of impact. No
have come up with a dollar
other comic book writer
for their Merry Marvel
would have wasted that few
Marching Society kits. In the
seconds to think what cosmic
works are plastic models,
force rays sound like. They
games, a Spider-Man jazz
would have just written “Pow” or
record, and a television car-
“Zap” or something equally conven-
toon series.
tional.
“We really never expected
Stan Lee, 43, is a native New Yorker, an
all of this, you know,” Lee admits. “I mean
ultra-Madison Avenue, rangy lookalike of Rex
it started out as a gag, mostly. I just thought
Harrison. He’s got that horsy jaw and humor-
maybe it would be worth trying to upgrade
ous eyes, thinning but tasteful gray hair, the
the magazines a little bit. Audiences every-
brightest-colored Ivy League wardrobe in
where are getting hipper these days. Why not
captivity and a deep suntan that comes
the comic book audience, too? And then
from working every Tuesday, Thursday,
all of a sudden we were getting 500 let-
Saturday and Sunday on his suburban
ters a day about what great satire these
terrace, cranking out three complete
stories were, and how significant.
Marvel mags weekly.
We used to get about one letter a
He is also a good mimic and
year... before.”
does a fine reproduction of that
Before Stan Lee dreamed
rolling, Continental voice we
up the “Marvel Age of Comics”
were hearing on the class TV
in 1961. When Lee went to
interviews back in October.
work for the comic book divi-
That voice got on the phone
sion at Martin Goodman’s
to Marvel Comics at 625
publishing outfit he was 17 years old.
Madison Avenue and said,
By 1961 he had been manufacturing
“Hello, this is Federico
comic strips at the same stand for 20
Fellini. I like very much your comics.
years. It was getting to be tiresome.
In one hour I come see you, yes?”
Nostalgia about old comic books
No, it wasn’t a put-on. Somebody had shown
is a large item now, what with Pop art
Fellini a couple of Lee’s Marvel masterpieces while the great
and Camp riding high, but fond remembrance of childhood joys is
Italian film director was racked out with a virus at the Hotel Pierre.
one thing, and actually reading that stuff is something quite different.
Fellini turned up at Stan Lee’s office with a medium-sized entourage
It’s no accident most adults outgrew the comics of their day at puberty.
his first day out of sickbed. “He’s my buddy now,” says Lee. “He invited
The carefully selected samples in Jules Feiffer’s Great Comic Book
me to come to see him at his villa any time I’m in Rome. I’m supposed
Heroes anthology give pleasure because they are perfect examples of
to take him to the cartoonists’ convention when he’s back here for the
their form. But as the same old tired stories and stiff drawings were
Sweet Charity opening in January.”
26
 because I followed what he had penciled; his pencils were quite

George “Inky” precise. Joe I remember vaguely. I do remember that the artwork was
on illustration boards — it look liked they brought in the Ten
Commandments — there were so many pages and they were so thick!

Roussos Interviewed Interviewed by Jon B. Cooke

(laughter)
TJKC: Do you remember how they worked?
GEORGE: Joe was the writer — he never trusted Jack with the writing
— and Jack would do the penciling, which Joe would ink. Sometimes
(Familiar to modern fans mostly as a colorist, George Roussos has had a both of them pitched in to ink.
career in comics which spans back to the dawn of the art form, beginning
as a background inker for Bob Kane’s studio on Batman. Working for TJKC: When did you get the nickname “Inky”?
nearly every comics publisher, George earned his keep as penciler, inker, let- GEORGE: It was given to me by Bob Wood because I was doing a lot
terer, and correction artist beside a veritable Who’s Who of the industry of inking. He wrote a story using me as a villain named “Inky”
and, astonishingly, after 57 years he still works in the business today as Roussos in one of his books. And then Jack Kirby picked it up and he
staff cover colorist for Marvel Comics. This
interview was conducted by phone on May 27 and
November 26, 1997.)
THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR: When did you
start working in comics?
GEORGE ROUSSOS: In 1940, I started work with
DC Comics. First, I worked directly with Bob
Kane on Batman in his studio, but the character
became very popular and he couldn’t produce
the work fast enough — he was very slow — so
they decided that Jerry Robinson and I would go
into the office several months later.
I was doing the backgrounds and lettering
on Batman and Jerry was doing the figures. Bob
would send us the pages. This way the office was
able to keep tabs on us.
TJKC: In those early years, did you like working
on Batman?
GEORGE: I liked it, but it’s hard for me to explain
it. At this moment I see it in such an odd way. I
imagine it was mostly in the economics — I need-
ed a job — and that was the emphasis primarily
in whatever I did. That’s why I’ve never succeeded
like others did. The others threw themselves in
totally and I was never able to do that.
TJKC: Did you work at Timely in the ’40s?
GEORGE: There was a guy by the name of
Bernie Klein (who later got killed in the Army)
who was a sports cartoonist, and he wanted me
as an assistant. (They all wanted to use me
because of the technique I developed on Batman
for the backgrounds.) Bernie got a job from Jack
Kirby to do some inking on Captain America
and I did the backgrounds on it. I think it was
the third issue.
TJKC: Did the fact that Simon & Kirby were
going over to National have any effect in the
office?
GEORGE: Yes, everyone was impressed with
Simon & Kirby. We were all impressed with
Jack’s very unusual, terrific style.
TJKC: When did you first meet Joe Simon and
Jack Kirby?
GEORGE: I met them at DC, while I was on
staff, when they began bringing in their
Boy Commandos pages. I spent more time with
Jack. For some odd reason, Jack penciled a
drawing and he asked me to ink it. I inked it (this and next 3 pages) Pencils from pages 10-13 of Journey Into Mystery #101, which George “Bell”
very quickly and he was very pleased with it Roussos inked. We ran the first nine pages of pencils from this story in TJKC #14.
32
 and I would finish it off. So I was able to get
him back.
TJKC: Was Mort heavily influenced by Kirby?
GEORGE: No. He was influenced by the artist
who drew The Shadow; the pulp illustrator.
It was line drawings with crayon shading of
grays.
TJKC: Mort’s work always reminded me of
Kirby’s, what with all the action.
GEORGE: Mort’s work was more graceful.
Jack’s was exaggerated action and dramatic
— one leg would be about ten feet away from
the other. Mort was a gymnast so it had an
influence on his Johnny Quick and Vigilante.
Mort was graceful, but Jack was dynamic.
Later on, Mort left comics and went into the
advertising field.
TJKC: Besides the Captain America story, did
you work for Simon & Kirby in the ’40s?
GEORGE: No, but later on I worked on some
mystery stories or something — nothing very
important. I inked a few jobs of Jack’s but I
don’t remember them.
TJKC: Did you go into the office when they
worked up at Crestwood?
GEORGE: Yes, in fact I worked in the office
sometimes. They were up somewhere off
Broadway. It was not bad, a small outfit, a lot
of fun. Ben Oda, the letterer was there.
Carmine Infantino’s younger brother worked
there for awhile; very nice guy. Marv Stein
and Mort Meskin were there. I was working
there on a freelance basis. I liked working
with Joe and Jack. Joe was the real business
manager; very clever, efficient guy, and also
an excellent artist. He was the brains.
Jack was there at the drawing board. He
hardly talked; he just produced. So there was a
lot of energy inside of him that he didn’t
waste on talking and kidding around. He’d
do six or seven pages, starting from the left
side and go right across, the next line and the
next line... (laughter) amazing guy, really. It
was a very pleasant atmosphere and I
enjoyed working there.
When some difficulties arose at
Crestwood, a few artists weren’t paid. This
always called me “Inky” every time he saw me. caused a lot of resentment toward Joe and
Jack, and they avoided them. I met Jack later at an art store at Grand
TJKC: So Simon & Kirby named their newspaper strip after you? Central Station. He was happy to see me, and I sensed he wanted to
GEORGE: No. I believe there was a play on Broadway about a car- talk. So we walked to Stan Lee’s office and back to Grand Central. He
toonist. I don’t know if Bob swiped it or whatever. was talking away. I wish I had that dialogue today, but who would
TJKC: Did you enjoy the work of Mort Meskin? ever think that someone would come along and ask questions! (laughter)
GEORGE: Oh, Mort I liked very much. He lived just downstairs from me We covered every subject, only he did all the talking. I guess it was a
in the Village. I worked with Mort and, in fact, helped him out of a pent-up energy and he was rather hurt that people took out their
very difficult situation that he got into. Mort was a very uncertain guy, anger on him — unnecessarily he felt.
extremely sensitive. He got in trouble with the office for some reason, TJKC: Were the troubles tied to Wertham and the downfall of comics?
with Whit Ellsworth — some kind of disagreement; probably the GEORGE: I don’t know if it had anything to do with that. I was sur-
artistic temperament out of control — and they asked me to take over prised because prior to the situation, the books were selling as much
his work. (Mort did “Johnny Quick” and “Vigilante.”) I tried to get him as 95 percent. I don’t know what happened to bring them down.
back again. They were doing the movie serial of Vigilante and we were to Their books were nice and clean. They weren’t doing the weird things
do a 16-page giveaway for the movie theatres, and I told Whit that this Gaines was doing, and shouldn’t have been criticized. Gaines and Bob
was a bit too much for me to handle. I could ask Mort to do the penciling Wood’s books — they’re the guys who created the monster.
33
 were out to kill him because they felt he had desecrated

Excerpts From The their temple when he was a GI. It was my

plot, a lot of it was my idea. Stan injected
Dr. Strange into the second half,

John Romita Panel

Held at Comic Con International: San Diego on July 19, 1997
which was great. That second half is
in the book The Art Of John Romita,
the whole story. It’s my favorite
because I like the story, and also
Transcribed by John Morrow because I was a Terry and the Pirates
freak when I grew up. I used to
QUESTION: When did you start working on Spider-Man?
absorb it through my pores every
JOHN ROMITA: I started it in 1966, but only because Stan absolutely
Sunday, and in that storyline I
conned me. (laughter) Before I actually agreed to pencil any stories for
had a big Chinese chauffeur
him, he took me out to lunch and hit me with everything in the book.
who was based on Big Stoop.
I told him I had taken a job at (advertising agency) BBD&O. He said,
“Do you want to be a little fish in a big pond, or a big fish in a little QUESTION: Was there a
pond?” I’ve been in this little pond for 46 years now, and I’ve always scramble when Steve Ditko
made a living, so I guess I made the right decision. I don’t have an suddenly quit Spider-Man?
ulcer, and I’ve got a wonderful son that works in the business, so I’m ROMITA: I had heard a couple
very grateful to all the fans who care and remember. I’m still amazed of times that he was thinking of
that people remember my artwork from the Sixties. leaving. He and Stan
didn’t get along; they dis-
QUESTION: What’s your favorite issue of Spider-Man?
agreed on plotting, they
ROMITA: There was a two-story arc having to do with Flash
disagreed on motivations
Thompson returning from Viet Nam, where some Southeast Asians
for the characters, and I
found out later on they disagreed on the iden-
tity of the Green Goblin — and I think that’s
what broke the camel’s back — but there wasn’t
a scramble. Stan asked me to draw Spider-Man as a guest star in
Daredevil #16 and #17. That was sort of like a try-out. But frankly, I
thought Ditko was just going to leave for a few months until he got
over his anger, and then come back. If I had created a character like
Spider-Man, and he was getting bigger and bigger every year, I
wouldn’t have given it up. I don’t care if I was working for Godzilla, it
wouldn’t have mattered. I always got along with editors because I let
them have their way. I always figured my obligation was to give him
everything he wanted, as close to what I liked as possible, but more
(this page) what he wanted than what I wanted. I thought that was the obligation
1970s of a paid artist.
Romita Ditko was really ahead of his time; he was like the young artists
Spidey art. today. They want to inject their own feelings and their own version of
everything. When I took it over, my generation felt the obligation to
ghost a book. If you look at my first few issues, they look like Ditko. I
tried to make them look so much like Ditko that nobody’d notice. I
thought that’s what a guy should do when he took over a successful
book. It was a failure, but I figured they wanted to see Ditko — and
let me tell you, young fans were absolutely cruel to me for at least
eighteen months. Every time I ran into fans, they would say, “When is
Ditko coming back?” It hurt me, but I also understood it.
Frankly, up until maybe 1968, I felt like a stranger on that book,
ghosting for somebody else temporarily. I never quite lost that
sense of being out of place all during my run on Spider-Man.
QUESTION: But sales rose.
ROMITA: Well, that’s the reason I’m here. (laughter) I’m credited
everywhere as the man who brought Spider-Man up to number
one; Fantastic Four was our best-selling title before that. When I
first saw the book, Stan gave me the first 33 issues to look over,
and I said, “Gee, it looks silly. It looks dumb.” By the time I
reached the twenties, I realized Ditko was really rolling. I had an
interview once that just quoted the first part of that statement,
that I thought it was silly and crude. That’s all that ever got into
print, and it’s a wonder Ditko ever talked to me after that. They
never put in the other part that said how much I loved it and
respected it after I got into the run.
The first thing today’s artists want to do is change the cos-
(next page) Romita & Steranko made face changes to this Captain America #102 page. tume, the characters. They want to make it scary and heavy and
38
dark. Stan always wanted it lighthearted with laughs. The reason we why there were riots on the campus in the strip and all that stuff. He
killed people like Gwen Stacy and Captain Stacy was because Stan was a very political animal, and he was very conservative too, as you
made it so lighthearted, people were starting to take it for granted. probably know. He wanted all this stuff to look real, and he said, “In
Nobody would ever get hurt, nobody was getting killed. So we killed real life, if there’s a masked criminal, and you unmask him, 99 times
Captain Stacy, and then Gwen, because we wanted the readers to see, out of 100 it’s going to be someone you never know.” And Stan’s like,
every issue, they don’t know who’s gonna survive. “What are you talking about? We’re not doing real life here; this is a
guy who crawls on walls.” (laughter)
QUESTION: Where did Mary Jane come from?
ROMITA: She was in the book about three or four issues before I took QUESTION: What was the reaction when the Comics Code didn’t
it over; but this is another reason they disagreed — I don’t know if approve the drug issues?
Ditko wanted her to be unattractive, and Stan wanted her beautiful, ROMITA: I plotted those stories with Stan, thinking I was going to do
or vice versa — but they never could agree on what she looked like, so them, then he yanked me off them to do Captain America or Fantastic
in her first few appearances it was a suspenseful gimmick where Peter Four or something. Gil Kane always got the biggest issues, and I wanted
Parker is supposed to meet this girl, and he kept breaking the to kill him. (laughter) I never got a chance to do one landmark issue.
appointment. There was this scene where this
huge flower was blocking her face; all you could
see was the back of her hair, and you saw her in
silhouette and shadows. They couldn’t decide on
her look. So when I took over the book, after we
decided that Norman Osborn was going to be
the Goblin — Stan decided, I didn’t decide; he
just told me; that’s why I was on the book
(laughter) — the second thing he did was ask me
what I thought about Mary Jane. I thought she
should really be a knockout, and really oooh
him. This way, he’d be ducking her for a year,
and when he finally sees her, he’d say, “What,
was I stupid?” He went along with that, and I
did a sketch which I still have, the first sketch I
ever made of her. It was based on Ann Margaret,
with dimples and a cleft in her chin, and red in
her hair.
When it came out, it didn’t come out as
good as I wanted. My first pencil sketch was
much better, and my first penciling on that page
looked better than the final inking. I almost
went nuts because I didn’t like what it looked
like, and I tried two or three times to improve it,
and I never could get it to where I wanted it.
Slowly but surely I learned how to draw her.
I gotta tell you something about Stan and
his terminology. He gave us all nicknames in lieu
of money. (laughter) Martin Goodman was very
tight with page rates. But when it came to nick-
names, he had two names for me, and all the
nicknames were based on your first or second
initial. So I was “Ring-A-Ding” Romita some-
times, and I was “Jazzy” John sometimes. When
my mother saw that, she said, “What’s this
‘Jazzy’ John?” I said that was just one of the nick-
names. She said, “You tell Mr. Stan Lee every-
body can’t be as fancy as he is.” (laughter) She
took it wrong, like it was a condescending wise-
crack about the fact that I was a square, and that
“Jazzy” was like a joke.
QUESTION: Who did Steve Ditko originally
want the Goblin to be?
ROMITA: From what I’ve gathered — and this is
secondhand information, because I never asked
Steve this — he wanted it to be someone
unknown. And his theory was sensible; this is
the reason Stan and he disagreed a lot. Ditko
had a feeling that more real life should be put
into the strips, and I thought he was a pioneer
that way. He wanted politics in the strip, he
wanted sociological upheaval in the strip; that’s
39
 TJKC: When did you go over to talk to Stan about working for Atlas?

Marie Severin Interview Interviewed by Jon B. Cooke

MARIE: The Comics Code knocked out the EC color books and I was
working on Mad. But there wasn’t that much to do. I didn’t think Mad
would last; ha-ha! I followed John to Stan, who was doing a wannabe
Mad-type thing. He hired me as one of his production people. It was a
(Marie Severin is renowned for her humor, friendliness, and generosity, not big bullpen with Stan’s office up front. John, Bill Everett, Joe Maneely,
to mention her exceptional capabilities. Best known for her satirical work Danny Crespi, and a great bunch of letterers all worked together.
on Marvel’s Not Brand Echh, Marie is also an accomplished penciler, col- Except for two proofreader ladies up front, I was the only gal. It was
orist, breakdown artist, and cover designer, achieving critical success with fun being in the middle of a bunch of guys, except when it got into
her brother John on the lauded Kull the Conqueror series in the early ’70s. exhaustive baseball discussions. Once I yelled at Artie Simek because
She also served as Marvel’s art director for a brief period in the late ’70s. he had not shut up for 40 minutes about the darn Yankees.
This interview was conducted via phone on November 10, 1997.)
TJKC: How long did your initial stay with Marvel last?
THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR: How’d you get started in comics? MARIE: I think about a year and a half. The newsstands had more
MARIE SEVERIN: John, my brother, was at EC and they weren’t happy comic titles than they could handle, and with the overly strict Comics
with the coloring. He suggested me to (Harvey) Kurtzman for the war Code, the covers and stories were dopey. I went to work for the Federal
books and I passed muster. Then Bill Reserve Bank after getting laid off from
(Gaines) and Al (Feldstein) gave me the Marvel and did a lot of their graphics. I
science fiction and horror. I did most of also did a comic called The Story of
the covers but Harvey always did his own. Checks. John did the finished art. It was
They were chopping people up and a classy-looking little book. I was hired
doing all kinds of icky stuff... I figured it away from there to do educational film
wouldn’t be quite so offensive if I muted strips for about a year.
some icky stuff with darker colors — Then I heard that Stan was reviving
they called me a censor but they never stuff, so in 1964 I brought my portfolio
would have let me hurt the storytelling. in. Stan said, “Marie, I’m so glad to see
TJKC: Was it a riotous atmosphere you! Sol needs someone to help him in
working with Bill Gaines? production. Sol! Look who’s here!” And
MARIE: Oh, it was fun, but it was quite I said, “Stan, I’m…” A couple of months
intense work. Guys didn’t sit all day and later, Esquire magazine wanted to have
talk to the editors. Al wrote intensely most an article on Marvel Comics on college
of the day — Harvey, too. He brought in campuses, or the Marvel-type art deal-
tons of layouts for all his books. We had ing with dope on campus. Anyway, Sol
breaks where they fooled around. One day, didn’t want Kirby to endanger a dead-
Al came to me with a push pin pasted on line — which I’m sure would not have
his palm, with some red ink. It looked happened as Kirby could pop off the
painful, but being practical me, I just Esquire spread in an hour or two — so
yanked it out and then saw the glue and Sol sent me, as I had started doing pen-
the pin had no point, and the guys were ciling as well as production and coloring.
just disgusted with me... the unshock- When Martin Goodman saw the printed
able. Kurtzman was very intense and he version, he said, “She shouldn’t be
knew what he wanted. I hated tramping doing paste-ups, she should be drawing.”
around the city doing research with a duffel Ditko had just quit, and Bill Everett was
bag — this was 1953, and it wasn’t in getting sick, so I took over Dr. Strange. I
fashion! But he made me laugh a lot. He’d was on staff all those years because I
try out a little scene from a Mad story, and wanted something steady. I didn’t want
he would turn into one of his cartoons. to be walking around New York in heels
I learned a lot there. It was my first with a portfolio.
experience in comics. Al Williamson TJKC: Did you ever see Martin Goodman
and I were the youngest. They paid well, (above) Marie’s cover for Thor #175; strangely enough, it’s signed in the office?
and they paid right away. The workers by Jack. (next page) Jack’s original, unused version of the cover. MARIE: Sure. I’d pop into his office to
worked and were respected. thank him for a bonus. Once, when I
I remember Williamson and his baseball team coming in; y’know, knew he was out for the day, I took a nap on his couch. Nancy Murphy
Frazetta and Torres and all of those guys. They were funny; they really — the longest continual employee except for Stan — admired him a
were. They were so ahead of their times; they came in wearing dunga- lot. Nancy handled his contributions to a big charity. Flo, Nancy and I
rees and stuff, and in New York, all the guys had on shirts and ties. keep in touch; we plan to blackmail the lot in our old age.
These guys were the forerunners of the ’60s styles.
TJKC: Was Goodman involved in day-to-day operations of the comics?
TJKC: What happened in 1954, when Bill went down to Washington MARIE: I don’t really know. In the beginning, Stan had to check in
to defend horror comics? with him about what was going on. When the company was sold, Stan
MARIE: That was awful. We were in the office, and it was on a poopy was a free man. He had proven himself, and Martin didn’t interfere,
little black-&-white TV set. I was just annoyed. I remember saying to to my knowledge.
Johnny Craig, “Jeez, poor Bill. He’s all alone there!” And then they
held the cover of the book with the (severed) head on camera, and TJKC: What was Stan like when you met him?
Johnny was saying, “Why my art?” (laughter) Years later, Bill was hon- MARIE: Oh, just the way he is now; a mixture of Jack Benny and Errol
ored on TV with an award from the Horror Hall of Fame. He felt it Flynn. He’s funny and he’s charming, and he’s interesting. I like Stan.
vindicated EC. He was very proud of EC and his gang. He was always a gentleman. One time he corrected me in front of the
42
 TJKC: I don’t know if he was working from memory or a photo, but I
Interview With The Invisible think he caught your eyes. I look at it and see Flo’s eyes.
FLO: It’s just the way we were in the office, and the way we talked.
The way Stan speaks and writes, it’s really the way he is. People really
Woman, Flo SteinbergInterviewed by Michael Kraiger
did say things like “honestly,” and I did call them boys. Stan was
always telling me to pipe down when I’d be bothering them about
something. On page 15, where I bring in the box, I’m sure I actually
(Hardly invisible herself, Flo Steinberg was there from the start as Stan Lee’s did say things like, “Surprise, Stan! I’ve got something here that will
loyal secretary/girl Friday. Stan gave her the moniker “Fabulous Flo” and if brighten your day.” And he would have said, “That’s what I was lack-
you meet her you’d know why. What has this to do with Jack Kirby? Well, ing — a brighter day!” Jack caught the way we talked. I think he got
in 1978, Jack Kirby wrote and penciled Marvel Comics’ What If? #11 fea- our personalities perfectly.
turing a story entitled “What If The Original Marvel Bullpen Had Become
TJKC: According to an editorial in that issue, this was Roy Thomas’
The Fantastic Four?” The idea was Roy Thomas’, who offered the concept to
idea, and he was meant to play the Human Torch, with either you or
Jack Kirby. Jack took it and flew with it, returning to the Fantastic Four after
Marie Severin playing the part of the Invisible Girl.
eight years, not only to pencil the new story but, for the first time, to receive
FLO: That would have made Roy very happy, but I guess Jack was
writing credit as well. In the story, Stan Lee becomes Mister Fantastic, Jack
more comfortable with Sol, whom he had known forever.
becomes the ever-lovin’ blue-eyed Thing, production man Sol Brodsky
becomes the Human Torch, and Flo Steinberg becomes the Invisible Girl.) TJKC: The story takes place after you open a mysterious package in
the office. How typical was it for Jack to be in the office?
THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR: What does it feel like to
be turned into the Invisible Woman?
FLO STEINBERG: It feels great! It’s such a wonderful
compliment, it’s such a great story and I’m utterly flat-
tered to have been immortalized by Jack. He’s the best!
TJKC: When What If? #11 came out you were no longer
working at Marvel. How did you find out about your role
in the story?
FLO: It was 1978 and I was working at ARTS magazine. I
was still connected to comics through friendships. Jim
Shooter called me up and told me the whole premise —
what Jack was doing — and he asked for my permission. I
said, well, if Jack wants to do it, that’s great! I’d be very
pleased. I had to sign something, which I did, and they
promised to send me some free comics, which they did. It
was all done properly, so I wouldn’t sue.
TJKC: What was your friends’ reaction at the time to you
becoming a member of Marvel’s original super team?
FLO: Oh, my friends in comics thought it was a riot and
just loved it. I got a wonderful kick out of it, too. My
friends who weren’t in comics didn’t quite get it, but they
thought it was funny. I reread it every once in a while and
I’m just amazed at how Jack captured everybody’s speak-
ing patterns. Sol was just that way, very practical. Sol
would have looked for the practical side of things, and
figured how to get out of the situation. Rereading it, I find
it a very warm and loving thing. I don’t see any of those
problems that developed years later which I wasn’t party
to. I’m sorry that happened.
This is so funny, this one (pointing to page 37, panel
3). It just cracks me up every time I read it, that one
panel. I mean that’s just... (In the panel, Flo Steinberg as the
Invisible Girl is pleading with the Sub-Mariner.) “Oh, please
listen to us, Prince Namor! We’re simply aching to be our
old selves again! We need your help so badly!” (laughter)
It just amazes me that he wrote this great copy that
captured everybody so well, and I think it’s done with
affection and respect.
TJKC: What did you think of Jack’s depiction of you? Do
you think he got a good likeness?
FLO: Physically, yes, it’s me, but I think he really caught
me in my office mode so well. So many of the things that I
said in there, I actually did say; Stan and Sol and Jack
also. It really was how we all talked. You know, sometimes
I was a little whiny when I needed to get things done.

45
 that was the first regular pencil assignment I got. Basically Stan said,

Herb Trimpe Interview Interviewed by Jon B. Cooke

“You want to draw the Hulk?” Marie was pretty much exploited, as we
all were, I guess. To this day, she’s one of the most versatile and talented
artists — and I mean artists, not just comic book artists — I know. She
can do anything. She’s just astounding.
(Herb Trimpe, best known for over 100 issues of the Incredible Hulk, also So I wound up on the Hulk. On that first issue, I did a couple of
worked in the Marvel Bullpen from 1966-’70. An accomplished biplane pilot, pages and took them in to show Stan, and he said, “No, no, no, no.
Herb is also recognized for outstanding work on Ant-Man, Killraven, and Let me get Frank Giacoia in here.” I always had very good storytelling
War is Hell stories during his freelance days in the ’70s. He is now doing ability, but I was used to the EC stuff. I liked Jack Davis, so there was a
freelance art while studying to be an art teacher in New York. Herb was lot of in-close stuff; the subtle, weird stuff that he does. There wasn’t
interviewed via telephone on November 12, 1997. The interview was tran- enough slam-bang going on. So Frank laid the story out, and Stan
scribed by John Morrow and copy edited by Herb and his wife, Linda Fite.) said, “Do it like this. Watch Frank.” I penciled over Frank’s layouts.
Frank laid the story out, and I followed it.
THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR: How did you get started in comics? When I started on the Hulk, I basically worked there for another
HERB TRIMPE: I came out of the Air Force in 1966; I’d just spent a six months, and since I wasn’t doing production anymore, there really
year in Viet Nam. I had worked prior to entering the Air Force for a wasn’t any need to work in the office. So Stan says, “Why don’t you
year or two for a man named Tom Gill who did mostly Gold Key and work at home?” From that point I was a salaried quota person.
Dell comics. I did backgrounds for him, right out of art school, on
western stuff like Bonanza and The Lone Ranger. Then I went into the TJKC: Marie Severin said you were the last person who received direct
service for four years. While I was in, a friend of mine who I went to attention from Stan.
art school with, John Verpoorten, was working at Marvel. When I left HERB: Yeah, I was. Stan understood the whole philosophy of Marvel,
the service, John said, “Hey, you oughtta bring your
stuff up, because we’re looking for people.” So I got
some samples together. I had art school stuff; I’d gone
to the School of Visual Arts after high school. I took
some material up there and talked to Sol Brodsky,
who was the production manager at the time. He gave
me some inking work; for about eight months I
worked on Werner Roth stuff, Kid Colt, Rawhide Kid.
This was 1966. Kirby was already taking off, and all
the big characters were already in place. I came in
between generations. Barry Smith came in around the
same time. It was a great atmosphere. Marie Severin
was in the Bullpen.
Sol called me one day and said they didn’t have
enough work for me, but they did have a job in the
production department coming up, operating the
photostat machine. It’d be a full-time job, and I could
pick up some freelance. So I said sure, great. I started
at $135 a week, which was okay in those days. I
worked for about six months doing that, during the
period I did the Phantom Eagle with Gary Friedrich
for Marvel Super-Heroes #16. That was the first pencil
and ink job I did.
TJKC: Were you hoping the book would take off?
HERB: In those days, artists weren’t really linked with
the creative effort as a package the way they are today.
It was a very loose arrangement. If a book failed, it
wasn’t a black mark on any of the creative people.
They considered the people that did the books to be
competent professionals. If a book failed, they can-
celled it and started up another, and you got another
assignment. There was no such thing as failure. Roy
and Stan might’ve felt like failures if a book failed, but
as far as the creative people go, there was little
attachment.
I wanted to draw like Jack Davis; I had a very car-
toony adventure style. That was my natural style.
When I got to Marvel, that all went out the window.
Stan didn’t say, “Draw like Kirby,” but he was always
throwing his storytelling style at me. Everybody had
to look toward Kirby in the mid-Sixties.
So I worked in production for six months, and
then the Hulk was in Tales To Astonish. Marie was doing
the Hulk, and when it switched to his own magazine, You can really see the Kirby influence on Herb’s Ant-Man, from Marvel Feature #4.
47
 THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR: Did you read comics as a kid?

John Buscema Interview Interviewed by Jon B. Cooke

JOHN BUSCEMA: Yes, I think I started around age 12. The first comic I
ever saw blew my mind; it was Superman. By 14 or 15 I stopped reading
comics. That was back around 1939-41.
(John Buscema came to join the Marvel Age of Comics in 1966, first work- TJKC: Do you remember seeing Kirby’s work when you were a kid?
ing on Nick Fury and the Hulk. His exceptional artistry is fondly recalled BUSCEMA: No. I probably did, but I saw Kirby’s stuff, just a bit of it,
on his repeated Avengers runs, Conan, the early Sub-Mariner issues, and when I started working for Marvel back in 1948. I saw one or two
the Fantastic Four. His Silver Surfer series is considered by some to be the pages of pencils that he had done, that were laying around the studio
finest super-hero comics ever to appear from the House of Ideas. John was there. I was very impressed with the drawing. It was a different style
interviewed via telephone on November 18, 1997.) than he had later — very loose.
TJKC: Were you an avid reader of
comic strips?
BUSCEMA: I was never really
interested in the stories, but I was
always interested in the drawings.
The three artists I followed were
Hal Foster, Alex Raymond, and
Burne Hogarth. I don’t know how
many years of Sunday comics
pages I saved, but then in 1957, I
threw everything away. (laughter)
I was angry. Comics were in a bad
situation. I couldn’t buy a job in
those days. I’d worked for Marvel,
I worked for Western Printing; I
don’t know how many different
outfits. They all folded; it was like
a domino effect. I just got ticked
off, and all those strips and any-
thing comic related that I’d saved,
I threw out. When I think about
it, tears well up in my eyes.
(laughter)
TJKC: Did you have aspirations to
be a comics artist?
BUSCEMA: No, I never really
wanted to. I wanted to be a painter.
But who could make a living at
that?
TJKC: How’d you get into comics?
BUSCEMA: Funny, I never got
anything making the rounds,
until I read a “wanted” ad in the
New York Times. Timely was look-
ing for cartoonists. That’s the first
time I met Stan Lee.
TJKC: What was he like?
BUSCEMA: Like he is today,
except he had a little more hair, I
guess. (laughter) He was a very
energetic guy, very personable
guy. At the time I thought he was
a genius, because I knew nothing
about comics. He gave me a staff
job, my first job in comics. I
worked in a large room with a
group of artists: Carl Burgos, Syd
Shores, Danny DeCarlo, and
Gene Colan were there. Bill
Everett worked there too, but he
wasn’t on staff. There were many
others, but I can’t recall their
John took over Thor after Jack left Marvel; here are Jack’s pencils from Journey Into Mystery #112. names.
51
 A Talk With Artist-Writer-Editor Jack Kirby
Interviewed by Bruce Hamilton, and originally published in Rocket’s Blast ComiCollector #81

(Editor’s Note: This interview was conducted shortly after Jack left Marvel I did that for Eddie Herron.
in 1970 to realize his Fourth World series at DC.)
BRUCE: Let’s talk about the future. Is it true that Superman is really
BRUCE HAMILTON: Do you care to discuss your main reasons for from New Genesis?
switching to DC? JACK: No, it’s not. The people from New Genesis are not the kind of
JACK KIRBY: I don’t mind at all. I can only say that DC gave me my people who are made into persons of Superman’s class, although they
own editing affairs, and if I have an idea I can take credit for it. I don’t are super-beings in their own right. They don’t stem from that kind of
have the feeling of repression that I had at Marvel. I don’t say I wasn’t an origin.
comfortable at Marvel, but it had its frustrating moments and there
BRUCE: John Clark of Phoenix came up with the idea the other day
was nothing I could do about it. When I got the opportunity to transfer
that maybe Superman was really the son of Highfather and that he’d
to DC, I took it. At DC I’m given the privilege of being associated with
been kidnapped by Darkseid and injected with a false memory of his
my own ideas. If I did come up with an idea at Marvel, they’d take it
origin. We thought it was interesting speculation.
away from me and I lost all association with it. I was never given credit
JACK: There is a concept in the strip that the true son of Highfather is
for the writing which I did. Most of the writing at Marvel is done by
going to be brought out, but it’s not Superman.
the artist from the script.
BRUCE: In your many years of collaboration with Joe Simon, we were
BRUCE: Was the concept of the Fantastic Four your idea or Stan Lee’s?
wondering who usually wrote, who penciled, and who inked? Or
JACK: It was my idea. It was my idea to do it the way it was; my
did it sometimes vary?
idea to develop it the way it was. I’m not saying that
JACK: Joe Simon is a very very competent man and he is
Stan had nothing to do with it. Of course he did.
quite capable of doing all those things, but I wrote
We talked things out. As things went on, I
them and I penciled them... and (laughing) I inked
began to work at home and I no longer came
them half the time! It was a lot of fun doing them,
up to the office. I developed all the stuff at
though.
home and just sent it in. I had to come up
with new ideas to help the strip sell. I was BRUCE: Is he still active in comics?
faced with the frustration of having to JACK: I don’t know what Joe is
come up with new ideas and then having doing. I haven’t seen or talked to
them taken from me. So, I was kind Joe in about five years.
of caught in a box and I had to get
BRUCE: You were quoted in an
out of that box, and when DC came
interview six or seven years ago as
along and gave me the opportunity to do
saying you didn’t think the Alley
it, I took it. I believe working for DC can
Awards for the Best Artist were given
lead to other experimentation and a better
to enough people. Would you care to
kind of comic book, and the kind of
comment on that?
comic book that could lead to all sorts of
JACK: Yes. I believe the Alley Awards
different things.
were sewed up among a few people and
BRUCE: What do you feel is your single were handled in a sort of clique fashion. In
greatest creation in 30 years of working in other words, they were dominated by one
comics? group, which gave it to one group. It became a
JACK: Well, there’s no doubt that Captain kind of an overall self-promotional, which I
America became some kind of an institution thought was wrong. I feel that the people who
with some kind of a legendary status. I accept handed out the Alley Awards stayed within their own
that as probably the big one. likes and dislikes. They didn’t give enough study to the other
artists in the field who were doing pretty competent work for
BRUCE: Is it true that some of the things signed by Simon &
other books. This was because of the clique situation.
Kirby actually contained work by other people?
JACK: Yes. We had, for instance, Eddie Herron, the man who BRUCE: Are you familiar with this new publisher Skywald? Do
created Captain Marvel. He was an editor for Fawcett who you know the story behind some of the old comics they’re reprinting?
later became a writer for DC. He also created the JACK: Well, it’s probably a simple story.
Red Skull, which I used in an early I don’t know the story behind
Captain America. Compared it, but I’ve done the same thing
to Captain Marvel, that in the past myself. Purchasing
became his biggest hit. In 1970s Cap drawing. old artwork cuts down on
fact, the Red Skull stands out as a kind of an all-time villain. costs. I see they got hold of
He proved to be a great character — but I didn’t create him. And some of my old Bullseyes. I
I used him to good effect. We had things like that from time to time. don’t know how they did that, but I’m quite sure they bought it legiti-
mately; but I don’t know from whom.
BRUCE: There’s been a continuing controversy whether you or Beck
drew Captain Marvel #1 and who drew the Special Edition that came BRUCE: Do you feel comics are here to stay in their present form?
out before that. Did you do either one? JACK: No, they’re not. I feel that they’re going to change. I feel there’s
JACK: I did the Special. I originated the costume and all that business. being a lot of experimentation in that respect. I feel the change will
60
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