Psychological Perspectives

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A woman's way
A Conversation with Marie-Louise von Franz

Mane-Louise von Franz

To cite this article: Mane-Louise von Franz (1990) A woman's way, Psychological Perspectives,
22:1, 102-121, DOI: 10.1080/00332929008408094

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Published online: 17 Jan 2008.

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 A
WOMAN’S
WAY

A Conversation with
Marie-L ouise von Franz

T he 74-year-old Mane-Louise von Franz is

internationally recognized as one of the most
loving and creative voices of analytical psychology.
In this wide-ranging conversation with Donna
Spencer and our editor, Ernest Rossi, Marie-
Louise begins with a few highlights of the
significance of Nietzsche’s Zarathustra for an
understanding of the current evolution of human
consciousness. She helps us focus on the func-
tion of feeling as a guide through the maze of
political and professional ideologies that can distort
an individual’s insight and ever unique way.
 A Woman’s Way 103

Ernest Rossi (PP): What is the mean- That pattern is typical for all modern
ing of Nietzsche’s Zarathustra for Jung ideologies. If you take Marxist ideology
and modern consciousness? or Khoumeni’s preaching, or whatever,
generally it is the truth with a wrong
Marie-Louise von Frant: I think it goes
twist in it. It catches the masses because
right to the heart of the problem of
modern times because Nietzsche, as a
parson’s son, fell out of the Christian
tradition. He fell headlong into Ger-
manic paganism and Zarathustra, who
is really Wotan, as Jung shows. It illus-
trates the psychological prehistory of the
whole madness of the Second World
War. That madness is still coming on
because, you see, when the Self or the
divine image is not recognized, then
people fall into a secret inflation.
Nietzsche is the prototype of modern it seems true and people overlook the
man having an inflation because of not wrong twist.
believing any more. It is the madness
of not only Europe but also China and PP What is that wrong twist?
America. When people do away with
religious tradition, they fall into the Marie-Louise: That wrong twist is often
Superman fantasy. on the feeling-ethical level. Nietzsche
falls into exaggerating the wrong sen-
PP By the “Superman fantasy” do you
timentality by putting something which
mean that man himself, his conscious
belongs inside on the outside. For in-
ego, can find an answer to all problems?
stance, Nietzsche says in Zarathustra,
Marie-Louise: Yes. Jung’s seminar on “If you go to the woman, take the whip
Zararhustra goes through the intricacies with you.” That is completely true for
of that process and demonstrates the the inner life. A man should whip his
distortion of feeling that takes place in anima. That means, he should be able
modern consciousness. It is very tricky! to criticize his anima when it is ap-
What Nietzsche says is 75 percent true. propriate to do so. Nietzsche, however,
You read along and nod your head and projected this impulse onto the real,
say, “That’s true!” Then suddenly, outer woman; then it becomes a devil-
“Wheeee!’l-there comes a wrong, ish, sadistic act.
crazy turn in it-and then it goes on and In this way Nietzsche suddenly slips
is right again. off and takes the ourside as if it were in-
 William Blake Milfon

If the ego chooses to parade as the “announcer’’ of unconscious

inspiration, then the unconscious becomes contaminated with human
inadequacies and prejudices, because these had not previously been in-
tegrated into the conscious personality. R e water of the unconscious spirit
is muddied, so to speak, by personal and all-too-human contents and
then overjlows into consciousness. Jung analyzed Thus Spake Zarathustra
in order to arrive at a clear distinction between what is genuine inspira-
tion in the work and what appears to be distorted as a result of Nietzsche S
unresolved personal problems, chiejly those due to his injlation. Since
Nietzsche identified with the Superman, the “higher ’’ men want to drag
him “down to the collective sphere of average humanity” and finally the
“ugliest” man emerges as an expression of the regulating injluence of
the unconscious. “But the roaring lion of Zarathustra ’s moral convic-
.
tion forces all these injluences. .back again into the cave of the un-
conscious. R u s the regulating injluence is suppressed, but not the secret
counteraction of the unconscious,” which from then on Nietzsche pro-
jected onto one or another adversav. @p. 43-44)
Marie-Louise von Franz
C. G. Jung: His Myth in Our Time
G . P. Putnam, 1975
 A Woman’s Way 105

side, and vice versa, and tries to make Donna: Is that what false religion does?
a truth of it. You could say that all It finds only the good God and fails to
dishonest journalism, ideologies, and deal with integrating the dark side of
mass movements operate in this manner. God?

PP They present a certain number of Marie-Louise: Yes, but that is really a

truths-they suck you in-but, then, human tendency which we all share.
with a wrong twist of feeling, they Clients in psychotherapy come to get rid
betray the human condition. of their depression as quickly as possi-
ble. But Jung took them by their necks
Marie-Louise: Yes. and dumped them into their depression,
saying in essence, “You must get
Donna Spencer: Would you say then
through it, not above and away from it.”
that Americans who gravitate toward
Naturally what the individual tries to
fundamentalist “quick cure” religions
deny or escape is mirrored in what
may be afraid of their feelings of depres-
whole nations try to deny or escape.
sion. That is, they cannot tolerate the
Hitler promised a quick, cheap outer
negative feelings and the experience of
solution by scapegoating the Jews. He
not knowing?
said, “The Jews are evil-get rid of
them and then everything will be okay.”
Marie-Louise: Yes. The current finan-
Unfortunately, the Germans fell for such
cial crash of the dollar expresses a de-
distorted thinking. That psychology was
pression. The crash in the stock mar-
anticipated in Nietzsche.
ket means that the libido has gone out
of the money-making arena where the
DEPRESSION,
CONFLICT AND
joy of life is sought in outward success. CONSCIOUSNESS
The libido has dissipated and then there
Donna: Do you see that same trend in
is a depression. America should hce the
women’s consciousness? In the attempt
depression outside and inside instead of
to avoid the depression, the dark side
trying to get out of it quickly.
of feeling-and to be “Iiberated’Lthey
Donna: We need to develop the ability try to deny feeling altogether, just like
to not know and to tolerate depression? men do?

Marie-Louise: It is the ability to stand Marie-Louise: Yes. I think this issue is

quietly in darkness and wait for some- the same for both men and women. It
thing autonomous, to wait for the uncon- is a question of being honest or dis-
scious psyche to manifest-instead of honest emotionally. In families, there is
playing tricks with the ego. a danger of becoming dishonest. In
 William Blake The Soul reunited wilh God

B ut what does it really mean when people say that “God is dead”?
&there is a God independent of human experience, one may sup-
pose that such a fashionable catchword would not bother him much! The
point at issue is rather the fact that our image of God, or our dejnition
of him, is dead for us, although the word is a name for something which
wasfor past generations alive in the highest degree and which represented
for them the supreme value. That Something which was so alive in their
image of God, that psychologically egective power which evoked in them
an impressive reverencefor their “God,’ ’ is, however, not dead (as Jung
learned later and sought to verih). God was never really “captured”
in that man-made image, still less in the definitions, so that he is free
to leave them behind and “reveal” himselfanew Instead of saying, with
Nietzrche, “God is dead,” it would have been closer to the truth, in Jung s
opinion, to say: ‘t . .the highest value, which gives life and meaning,
has got lost.” “(God) has put off our image, and where shall we find
him again?” @. 16)
Marie-Louise von Franz
C. G. Jung: His Myth in Our Time
G . P. Putnam, 1975
 A Woman’s Way 107

mass movements, there is dishonesty. In Marie-Louise: Yes. People do not want

ideologies, there is dishonesty. War we to face the depression and therefore they
need is honesty! avoid facing the conflict. When things
are good, they want them to be 100 per-
Donna: What is honesty? cent good, and they want them to stay
that way forever. The uneasy signs of
Marie-Louise: It is a problem of decay are ignored, and then they jump
feeling-to have the right feeling and not at any bit of illusion. It is natural, but
follow the road of bad taste. In the we all must fight this inclination and try
Zarafhustra seminar Jung points out to look inside more clearly.
how Nietzsche suddenly slips off into
phrases of bad taste that document the Donna: Can dreams bring us to an
beginning of his schizophrenia. earlier awareness of conflict?

PP: What is the message in all this? Marie-Louise: Yes. That is why people
often ignore their dreams after analysis.
Marie-Louise: To follow the inner truth They brush off the conflict in the dream
even if everybody deserts you and calls saying, “Oh, that’s not important-it’s
you crazy. just due to the fact that I went to bed
late.”
Donna: That was Joseph Campbell’s
message also: Follow your heart, go for Donna: Are you saying that after com-
the bliss, be true to that which draws you pleting analysis, some people begin to
from within yourself. rationalize their dreams?

Marie-Louise: On occasion I have de- Marie-Louise: Yes, because the dream

ceived myself in my life. When I reflect- contains contents they do not like. They
ed after the events, however, I would do not really want to know.
always recall that I had an uneasy feel-
ing from the beginning. It is very dif- Donna: Does one get wiser in utilizing
ficult sometimes to listen to those dreams as one gets older?
uneasy feelings. When everything looks
all right on the surface, we do not want Marie-Louise: When one gets older, if
to see inner conflicts if we can avoid one is reasonable, one sees that soon
them. one will have to leave the world, and
therefore one should clarify what is eter-
P P Facing our conflicts honestly is the nal and what is passing. I feel now very
beginning of personal development. often that such-and-such is no longer
108 Psychological Perspectives

important, because I will not be here in time of Perpetua would mean to be one-
a few years. The aging process helps one sidedly spiritual and one-sidedly
to select what is important. fighting for the good-waving up the
flag for the good, even up to death. It
Donna: Are you saying that as we get was right at the time. Nowadays it would
older, we are better able to sort out the be meaningless.
things that are important to the Self as There were people who stood up
different from the things important to against gassing the Jews, and they were
the ego? gassed with the others and forgotten.
Their actions appeard to have had no
Marie-Louise: Yes! We are able to do effect.
the right kind of sorting.
P P Then what would you say is the pro-
P P What is that sorting process like for per attitude for our time?
you today? What is important to you in
relation to your own development? Marie-Louise: It is a much more dif-
ficult attitude, because we must unite the
Marie-Louise: Well, it is difficult to say. opposites instead of fighting for one or
I can only say that in my life, when I the other.
followed my feeling against everybody
else’s opinion and advice, it turned out PP: How would that work out in reali-
to be right. ty? How would we unite the opposites?

FEELING
AND UNITING THEOPPOSITES Marie-Louise: Never exaggerate. Even
PP: Is it possible to contrast the essay if you fight evil, do not go too far. Do
you wrote on “The Passion of Per- not exaggerate virtue. When a person
petua,” which dealt with the archetypal comes and wants you to give him 20
basis of consciousness at the beginning francs, then give him five francs-after
of Christianity, with Nietzsche’s having investigated if he uses it well.
“Zarathustra,” which seemed to signal And if he doesn’t use it well, give him
the end of Christianity? Do you see a nothing. The Christian attitude would
relationship between these two? Are be, “If the beggar comes, I’ll give him
they marking a beginning and an end of 20 francs.” We must be much more dif-
the Christian era? ferentiated and watch that our virtue
does not have a negative side-effect. We
Marie-Louise: Yes, certainly. Each one must also look and see if maybe our $sins
belongs to its time and testifies for its have a positive side-effect [laughs heart-
time. For instance, to be Christian at the ily]-which they sometimes have!
 A WomanS Way 109

Donna: In Answer to Job, Jung was far more of a direct arrow pointing to where
ahead of his time in advocating that we the balance might be?
integrate the good with the evil.
Marie-Louise: [Sighs] Yes.
Marie-Louise: Yes!
Donna: Haven’t you said in your writ-
Donna: And much of the discussions in ings that women have a unique obliga-
the field of quantum physics describes tion to follow feelings?
how polarities are two sides of the same
whole. Is that about this same process Marie-Louise: Well, that follows natu-
-and the task of our time? rally. Women do not use their possibil-
ities enough. We had an old maid who
Mane-Louise: Yes, yes. Only in physics, was a feeling type. She was Catholic and
the issue is morally neutral. It is called she walked right up to a group of march-
“thinking in paradoxes,” or the “para- ing Nazis, who had interrupted a
doxically complementary opposites” Catholic procession. She went directly
[e.g., the wave-particle paradox]. In up to some of them and said, “You must
psychology, however, the issue becomes not do this.” She said it in such a friend-
a moral conflict. That makes it much ly but such a firm way that they
more difficult. apologized and went away. They were
It is easy to steal something and say, so caught by surprise that somebody had
“It is good for the rich people to lose stood up for the feeling without using
some of their money.” But it becomes aggression. She was not against them or
a moral conflict, and you cannot do that. anything. She was just true to her own
inner feelings.
Donna: Is that why you say that we must
stay in touch with our feelings and not Donna: And yet, so many women today
simply with our opinions or attitudes? try to be strong by denying their feel-
We must feel the moral issue? ings instead of trusting them. Isn’t that
so?
Marie-Louise: Yes, exactly! You feel it.
Marie-Louise: Yes. And that is un-
PP So, then, feeling becomes the key healthy for them. They do harm to
to much of our development of modern themselves.
consciousness! Are you saying that we
cannot trust our rational thinking and Donna: In America it seems as though
that we must trust our feelings more? professional women are given freedom
Would you say that our feelings are and equality if they promise not to be
110 Psychological Perspectives

emotional. They must become intel-

lectual.

Marie-Louise: And yet it is right for

women to be emotional.

Donna: Would you say that it is through

our emotions, our feelings, that women
know?

Marie-Louise: Yes, and yet women must

not slip off and get caught by emotion.
The place of balance is when you can
To have display your emotion quietly, with a
no rules a t all. strong accent, but not exaggerating it.
To be present
PP It occurs to me that what we need
with your genuine to do is to learn to create a safe temenos
personality in which our feelings can be ex-
pressed-a safe personal relationship; a
and have no technique safe group in which we can express feel-
and no clinical ing, understanding, and confidence.
Would you agree?
program to superimpose-
nothing. Marie-Louise: Yes! It is absolutely im-
Take a lot of trouble portant to establish friendships and the
right marriage or contacts. You cannot
to understand the dreams live alone. People who live without the
instead of flippantly right contacts dream often that they are
frozen in ice and snow. They dream
dismissing them. snow dreams. One needs a certain
Teach each patient, human warmth.
by your own actions Donna: Would you say that human
to trust his or her warmth-if it is respectful of one’s own
unconscious. unique individuality and is not merely
a projection-nurtures our growth and

-4- our ability to trust ourselves and our

own inner feelings?
 A Woman’s Way 111

Marie-Louise: Yes, when it is the true tient enough. Then they put up all sorts
feeling and not a projection. of theoretical defenses.

NOT KNOWINGIN ANALYSIS PP: They use rationalistic, theoretical

PP: Do you feel that analysis can help ideas to replace being in touch with
to facilitate this process? Do you still feeling?
have faith in analysis? Or does analysis
itself have to change? Marie-Louise: Yes, because it is very
difficult to meet the patient naked.
Marie-Louise: I still have faith in
analysis how I practice it. But I don’t P P So the therapist must be naked!
know how many colleagues practice it
in the same way. Some do, certainly, but Marie-Louise: [Laughing] Yes. Jung
not all of them. said: “You can struggle as much as you
like, but you always end up in the same
P P Could you say something about the bathtub in the end.” That is why peo-
way you practice analysis? ple are frightened.

Marie-Louise: To have no rules at all. Donna: Would you say that many times
To be present with your genuine per- we unwittingly use our professional role
sonality and have no technique and no of “therapist” as a cover?
clinical program to superimpose-
nothing. Permit the unconscious to take Marie-Louise: Yes, that is what I call
the lead! Take a lot of trouble to under- defense mechanisms: pretending to
stand the dreams instead of flippantly know instead of admitting, as Jung
dismissing them. Teach the patient by sometimes admitted in my analysis with
your own actions to trust his or her him, “I don’t know what that dream
unconscious. means,” or “I don’t know how we
should proceed.” Jung said to me, “I am
PP: So you are de-emphasizing tech- with you in the dark-I don’t know
nique and clinical concerns and focus- anything. Let’s just wait for the next
ing on trusting the unconscious. dream.”

Marie-Louise: I question the defense Donna: So as a therapist you are model-

mechanisms of analysts who do not trust ing a process of “not knowing” and
themselves to meet the patient directly. trusting the unconscious to lead the way
Such analysts feel inadequate, or their through the darkness?
feeling fails, or they do not like the pa-
I I2 Psychological Perspectives

Marie-Louise: You are willing to not Marie-Louise: [Laughs]

know, and to not be in the role of the
one who knows. The difficulty is that Donna: Do you think that children can
the patient always tries to maneuver the come to terms with conflict earlier than
therapist into the role of the one who in your generation or ours? Does the in-
knows. dividuation process begin earlier for to-
day’s children, since they learn to ver-
P P That is the primitive transference balize their conflicts earlier? Do they
that Freud talked about: we look for the have to wait until they have lived half
great mother or father. their lives to see the light?

Marie-Louise: The patient wants the Marie-Louise: As far as I see, it is in-

therapist to make the “trick” as quick- dividually different. When the situation
ly and as cheaply as possible. The pa- is very difficult, then the individuation
tient says to me: “I have been working process begins earlier. But it is a symp-
with you now for half a year and I am tom of being in very bad conditions. As
still depressed. You ought to have soon as happy conditions prevail, indi-
removed that!” Then I say: “If you con- viduation begins later. It is not neces-
tinue to lie to yourself, you will be sarily an advantage to begin individua-
depressed for another ten years!” tion early. It may be out of despair, out
of necessity. When assaulted by outer
P P The therapist should admit his lack difficulties-for instance, being raised
of knowledge and potency at times. in poverty-children grow up more
quickly. They are already adults at 10
Marie-Louise: The therapist must be a years old.
friend who shares the trouble but does
not pretend to take the lead. Donna: Would you say that when life is
not friendly to us and brings us conflict,
Donna: Another human being? something from inside us comes forth
to lead us?
Marie-Louise: Yes, another human be-
ing who sits in the same soup, and takes Marie-Louise: Yes, and we grow up
on the conflict, and tries to discover more quickly. Nature makes an effort to
what the unconscious is leading out of overcome the problem.
itself. Whatever leads out of the
unconscious. Donna: What do you think of the trend
in this “pop” psychology in childrear-
Donna: Come take a bath with me! ing to produce perfect little children, in
 A Woman’s Way I I3

perfect little families, living perfectly P P Soul connotes “something outside

plastic lives of normalcy? the Self’l-whereas you use the word
psyche to emphasize “inner processes.”
Marie-Louise: That is sentimental
nonsense. Anyone who is halfway in- Marie-Louise: I define psyche as being
telligent sees through such an illusion. the life process as experienced from
That is denying feeling. It does not make within.
me feel good; it makes me feel sick.
Donna: And psyche means mind and
P P So following conventions-even body.
good conventions-is not the answer.
Marie-Louise: Within the psyche there
Marie-Louise: No, except for extreme is a certain polarity between more
weaklings-they need conventions. physical and more mental processes.
SPIRIT,SOUL,PSYCHE What we experience is the psyche-and
all that is in between mind and body-
PP: Could you say something about
feelings, emotions, judgments, fantasies.
your understanding of soul?

Marie-Louise: That is really difficult to PP These are all processes that mediate
do, because the word is laden with mind-body?
historical tradition. Christianity deals
first with soul-anima-and that com- Marie-Louise: Yes.
plicates things. I prefer to use the word
psyche because it is less laden, and
because it deals with what is alive within
When the situation
in contrast to what is alive outside-that is very difficult,
is, soul. The man has a yin soul, as the
then the individuation
Chinese say, and that would be anima;
and woman has a yang soul and that is begins earlier.
what we call animus.
I t is a symptom
P P So are you saying that “soul” is an of being in
old-fashioned term that is more heavily
very bad conditions,
laden with the idea of spirit and Chris-
tian tradition? not necessarily

Marie-Louise: Yes-and with the idea

an advantage.
of “saving your soul.”
 We know nothing.
We are surrounded by mysteries.. . .
Human fate is not obvious.. . .
I always think that the fate of the man
or woman is a mystery to me which
we have to discover together.

NUMINOSUM,
ARCHETYPE,
AND and submit to something which is in-
LAUGHTER finitely bigger than yourself. You feel
PP:Where does the numinosum occur bad to have spoken and you have to shut
in relation to what we are discussing? up! You are shut up by the numinosum!

P P How does the numinosum work for

Marie-Louise: The numinosum is a
modern consciousness? How would you
thunderclap experience. A strong emo-
define a God who speaks through the
tional accent arises autonomously with- numinosum today?
in us.
Marie-Louise: The numinosum is an
Donna: The “aha!”? antique form. It is naturally different
from the Christian, because for the
Marie-Louise: No! The “aha!” is an ex- Christian it must be good, shiny, lumi-
perience of realization. The experience nous. But for us, the true numinosum
of the numinosum is to stand in awe- is just as well dark, frightening, shock-
when you feel you have to bend down ing, evil.
 A Woman’s Way I15

PP Its powers are beyond our ego Marie-Louise: Yes.

control-what Jung would call arche-
typal processes. P P Today, without so much overriding
dogma, do you think the numinosum
Marie-Louise: Archetypal processes are can evoke new patterns of conscious-
generally numinous. As soon as you feel ness?
them, you know “I’ll never forget
them.” Marie-Louise: Yes. The difficulty is that
people feel elated by the numinosum.
Donna: You feel them in your being They feel they are “elected” because
within, not just with your mind. they are having the numinosum ex-
perience, and they fly off in an inflation.
Marie-Louise: Yes.
PP How do we deal with that inflation?
PP:Would you say that a numinous ex-
perience always comes as a corrective Marie-Louise: You cannot deal with an
for a false ego attitude? inflation; you can only know it, or you
fall into the mud at the next corner
Marie-Louise: No. It comes complete- [laughs].
ly irrationally. It comes when you are
okay, and even when you are wrong. It P P So nature cures the inflation for us
comes when it wants to come. by dumping us in the mud!

P P Is it always a message to us? Donna: Our ability to laugh is one of

our safeguards. As we go through life
Marie-Louise: Yes. I think it is. we sometimes get a big, inflated feel-
ing about something that usually will
PP That is the art-to find out what that trip us up. We had better be able to
message is. laugh at ourselves! Humor can save us.

Marie-Louise: Yes. It can take years un- Marie-Louise: When a person can still
til one has found the message. laugh about himself, then he is not com-
pletely inflated. For instance, Hitler
P P The numinosum spoke often in the could never laugh about himself.
lives of saints but, unfortunately, their
message got pressed into the dogma of Donna: Sometimes patients become so
the Church. serious, repentant, and “born again’l-
116 Psychological Perspectives

they seem to become too serious and of learning: We know nothing; we are
unable to laugh at themselves. surrounded by mysteries. Human fate is
not obvious. You can look at some
Marie-Louise: Yes. Also, some people diagnosis and say that a patient obvious-
try to laugh in a way that is negative ly has a mother complex or is a feeling
laughing-they crack a joke in order to type, but those are only generalities
get rid of the conflict. which give you a little light. I always
think that the fate of that man or woman
Donna: We just visited with Gerhard is a mystery to me which we have to
and Hella Adler in London. They were discover together.
upset with the idea that today, some
Jungians think of the numinosum as a PP That fate is quite beyond all con-
“dirty word” and want to drop it and ventional psychiatric labels.
deal only with clinical issues in therapy.
Have you found this to be so? Marie-Louise: Yes.

P P That is what many professionals

Marie-Louise: Yes, naturally, because
have forgotten-to seek the mystery
the numinosum, as I have tried to say,
behind the apparently scientific label.
makes you modest, since it shuts you up.
So we must be sensitive to the numino-
Many of these psychotherapists want to
sum as an expression of the mystery of
do the trick themselves. They want to
everyday life. As you said once, ours is
be the great person who does the heal-
an evolutionary psychology; we are
ing trick.
always looking for what is the new.
[See “The New Archetypal Psy-
PP So we have to get that mantle of
chology” in the Fall 1987 issue of
“the healer” off ourselves and give it
PSYCHOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVES.]
back to the client.
Marie-Louise: The creative view! We
Marie-Louise: The true healers know believe in the creativity of nature. We
that God heals; it is not their own power. believe in the creativity of the psychic
The second-rate healer says, “Look, I background of the human condition.
have a little power-watch me-follow
my prescriptions and you will be well.” PP That is our first principle, you
might say-looking for the new and
PP The path for analysts has to be one facilitating it.
of continuing humility and openness.
Marie-Louise: Yes, we need to remain
Marie-Louise: Yes, and the Socratic way alert for the creative process.
 A Woman’s Way 117

Donna: How do you see this creative Donna: And yet, some of us cannot
process occurring in society as a whole, believe, even if we want to.
since many people never enter analysis?
How do people grow when they are Marie-Louise: Yes. I wanted to be con-
never exposed to therapy? firmed because my parents wanted Con-
firmation, and I agreed to it. I did not
Marie-Louise: Being truthful to one’s want to take it lightly, so I made a ter-
feeling and meeting the numinosum is rific effort to believe what the parson ex-
something that happens to everybody- plained; and, yet, I couldn’t understand
outside and inside of analysis. it. So one day he said to me, “Let’s
pray.” We got up to pray and when he
RELIGIOUSSYMBOLS
AND began the “Our Father,” I had this sud-
BODYLANGUAGE den upset and I began vomiting. The
Donna: Would you say that as people parson had to stop the prayer and take
become disenchanted with the external me to the washroom and wash me up.
religious symbols and, as has happened It was a terrible experience. Then I
this year in America, the leaders of the thought, “My body has just spoken-I
fundamentalists groups collapse into don’t want that; I cannot swallow that.”
“sin’ythat people are forced to look
Donna: I had a similar experience at my
again within themselves for the religious
First Holy Communion. I could not
symbol and stop projecting it outside?
swallow the host-the communion
wafer. I felt so bad, so guilty.
Marie-Louise: Yes. However, I would
look at every single case individually.
Marie-Louise: [Laughs] Yes. The body
There are some people who still have
is sometimes more truthful!
the old faith genuinely, and there are
others who use it to cover up their Donna: Yet when we are young, it is so
despair. There are those who are quite confusing to sort these messages from
genuine in their beliefs, and those who the body when society is telling us to
have a phony faith. believe something different. I would go
to my grandmother, who didn’t believe
Donna: You are saying that those with and was the “sinner” of the family. She
genuine faith in their religion are still would give me orange juice to wash the
individuating in a healthy sense? communion down with. Then I would
have to confess.
Marie-Louise: Yes, it is right for them
if they are genuine. Marie-Louise: [Laughing] Wash it down
I I8 Psychological Perspectives

with orange juice! That should have Donna: When I was young, I never
taught you that something was wrong. thought I wanted children, particularly
during those years when I was a nun.
Donna: We need to learn to listen to the Yet, life happened and I found myself
body. The body does tell us, especially surprised by the joy of being pregnant
in personal relationships. and having babies. Is the answer that we
must stay open to a deeper knowledge
Marie-Louise: Yes. of our Self, our destiny, which may be
different than what the ego wants?
P P In your experience, what does the
body tell women about men? Marie-Louise: Yes, we must listen to our
bodies.
Marie-Louise: When you don’t get
Donna: With today’s technological ad-
“turned on” you have to think, why?
vances, many women make their deci-
Certainly when a man gets impotent, it
sion regarding children on the basis of
is very clearly his body talking. I have
available birth control o r abortion in-
told many men, “Your penis is more
stead of doing that inner search.
intelligent than you are!” [Everyone
laughs heartily.] Marie-Louise: Each is an individual
case. Every woman should listen within
Donna: The body also speaks to women and she will know whether to have a
in giving birth. It can be a glorious hap- child, even if illegitimately, or whether
pening or a disaster. for her the answer is not to have this
child.
Marie-Louise: Yes, yes!
PP: How do you feel about the issue of
PP: How do you feel about the fact that family planning and elective abortion in
you missed having children yourself? particular?
Would you like to comment on that?
Marie-Louise: Once again, it is an in-
Marie-Louise: Yes. I could not have had dividual matter. One woman could err
children because my health was very, in not having an abortion when her in-
very precarious all my life. When I was dividual situation says she should.
young, I would have liked to marry and Another woman could err by having a
have children, yet I know now in child when she should not. One must
retrospect that it would have probably stay close to feeling to know what one
killed me. So I can see that although I should do in this matter of having or not
wanted children, it was not my destiny. having children.
 Donna Spencer with Marie-Louise von Franz

Donna: The psyche is really that work- the right way would be instead is the
ing together of mind and body. We need question that bugs me.
to listen more closely to those feelings
that come to us through our bodies. Donna: Would you say that we trans-
cend rhrough a real relationship and our
Marie-Louise: Be true to your feelings bodies rather than by going above and
in spite of what everyone else tells you beyond them?
to do.
Marie-Louise: Yes, yes!
Donna: As a woman, I experience the PP: Could you share with us your
oneness of mind and body, spirit and thoughts about technology and death?
matter. I feel a spiritual movement in my Does a person have a right to “pull the
body. Even the most everyday experi- plug” when someone is in a coma and
ence of making love is truly spiritual at appears to be merely existing as a
the same time it is physical. The separa- vegetable?
tion is not real. It is as spiritual as it is
clearly physical. Marie-Louise: That is a very com-
plicated issue. The person dying must
Marie-Louise: Yes. I am bugged by the stay in touch with his own dreams. The
way some people misuse the sense of doctor must stay in touch with his
mystical coniunctio. The alchemists and dreams. The family members must stay
the Islamic Sufi follow the neo-Platonic in touch with their dreams. We can on-
pattern that you have to sublimate all ly know what to do in these kinds of
personal love into the love of God, but situations by going beyond our egos and
that seems to me to be too one-sidedly delving deep into the Self in order to be
spiritual and it does away too much with in touch with our feelings and with what
the personal. It is too masculine. What is in harmony with the true Self.
 So I am like a poor woman
with a heavy belly who cannot
sleep on her back or on her side. . .

Donna: Do you find that your body is Donna: You don’t want to waste your
more sensitive as you grow older? time with them.

Marie-Louise: Oh, yes, very much. Marie-Louise: That’s right! You have so
Especially since I am ill, I am oversen- little time left that you want to make it
sitive. You get weaker, and so your body all a peak experience.
is a more sensitive instrument. When
you are young, you can be tough and go Donna: “Older is better” if we become
above things. At my current age, when more expedient and don’t waste time.
people behave in an unfriendly or
tactless manner, it now takes much more Marie-Louise: Yes. When you are
out of me. When I was young I would young, you have eternity before you and
say, “Oh, the hell with them” and walk you dawdle and waste it on childish
off. But now I am more sensitive. That nonsense [laughing].
is why I have eliminated a lot of people
from my circle who just rubbed me the Donna: As you get older, do you feel
wrong way. When you are old, you have more aloof!
the right to have around you the people
you like and to dismiss the others! For Marie-Louise: This is not something
instance, you always meet in life ungen- you should tell people-but there is a
uine people and people who are crooks certain natural process which makes you
and try to cheat you. I cannot accept detached. Sometimes people fuss
them anymore. I get seasick and I throw around me about nonsense and I feel not
them out! an aloofness but a genuine detachment.
 A Woman’s Way 121

I think, “That’s not worth fussing something new but you aren’t giving
about.” But I think that the detachment birth yet. So I am like a poor woman
should not be preached. It comes with a heavy belly who cannot sleep on
naturally, if it comes. her back or her side, and who cannot
get up the stairs.
Donna: Do you find yourself thinking
about death? What do you think death P P It is uncomfortable. Perhaps that is
is? why some people are not willing to go
through that creative process?
Marie-Louise: When I wrote the book,
On Dreams and Death [1986, Sham- Marie-Louise: Yes, it is very uncom-
bala], I thought about it day and night, fortable.
but now I think about the coniunctio.
PP One of the areas I am exploring
PP Tell us some of your thoughts about right now involves our psychobiological
the coniunctio, if you can. rhythms-that every hour-and-a-half we
need to take a rest-and if we don’t take
Marie-Louise: Well, I am puzzled, and that rest, then we stress ourselves. Do
it is bugging me. you find that?

P P Would you say that “bugging” is a Marie-Louise: Yes, now that I am old,
regular part of the creative process for I find it to be so. When I was young,
you? Something needs to bug you before I raced like a steam engine-but I can-
you get up the energy to write? not anymore. I have to take a rest. Oh,
yes. When you do not rest and you push
Marie-Louise: It is the premonition of yourself too far, you become sloppy and
creativity. You are pregnant with must go all over it again!

Front view of the

von Franz home.
Photos Enrect R i m