Tim Davies

DEBREVED

How to Score
JOIN THE DISCUSSION:  30 Comments

Scores should look good and be easy to read. I cannot tell you the number of
times I have been sent scores by students or hopeful orchestrators using
terrible layouts. Perhaps they saw something online (never trust anything you
see online, unless it is on this site of course!) or got advice from a friend who
had a friend that went to Berkusc or UCLNYU!

Session scores are different from concert scores for several reasons. While
concert scores have been typeset for centuries, session scores were done by
hand until about twenty years ago and a lot of the ‘look’ is still based on how
things were done in that style.

The following list is my standard practice for score layout. It includes some
updates to old conventions for use in modern scoring, as well as a few new
ideas from my own experience. I think a lot of these things make perfect sense
for the concert world as well.

Measures per Page

When scores were done by hand in Hollywood, they were always four
measures per page. With the advent of computers, it is possible to put more
measures on the page and still keep it readable. I like between six and eight
per page. Unless it is a big band chart or something that has strict eight-bar
phrasing, I do not mind if new sections do not always start on new pages, so
long as it is neat. In fact, sometimes it can be easier to see a new section
BEFORE the page turn if I am sight-reading. The main rule is to never put so
many bars on a page that I cannot find my place again after looking up from
the score.

Time Signatures
These should be big, but not too big. Too big and they take up too much space
and kill toner trees to print. Always use the Finale Engraver Time font (it also
works in the other program). Sometimes I feel that people are so proud of
their large time signatures that they make them even bigger just for the flex,
but it looks terrible and is a clear indicator that you really have no idea why we
use them or what you are doing!

Do not try using a normal font and just making it bigger; it needs to be tall but
not wide. Never put time signatures above the score or between sections; the
conductor’s eyes do not naturally look in those places and the only clue will be
silly gaps where the signatures should actually be. In most scores, four large
time signatures should be enough to cover the page. Include one on the top
line of each section, most importantly at the top of the page and on the first
violin line. These are the places my eye jumps to when I look back at a page. If
the time signatures are not there, I can miss them.
 Click me for examples

Measure Numbers
For scoring, it is important to have large measure numbers. I put them below
the bottom staff, but some people put them above the strings. Either works; I
do below as it keeps the numbers out of the way of any score indications that
would be put in the same area above the strings and it is much neater to have
them below in their own space. In the good old days, when people wrote in
pencil, they avoided the bottom of the page as it was easy for them to get cut
off with the dodgy faxing and photocopying of the day, but that is not a
concern these days.I also see people put boxes or circles around measure
numbers. Why? No idea! On the subject of boxes, we never use rehearsal
letters for scoring, as there is no need for them and they end up just being
clutter. For concert scores, you should always include them and in that case I
do use a box as they can be inline with other text that might be similar. The
general rule has always been that the measure numbers only go on the first
measure of each page and are quite small. I think that making them large and
including them on each measure like we do in scoring is a good idea for the
concert world as well. Any time you are doing new music there are going to be
a lot of questions and not a lot of time to answer them, so why not make the
conductor’s job easier?

Double Bars
I use a lot of them. They really help to tell where things are going when you are
sight-reading. It also helps the copyist break the part into sections.Start Bar
Ever since the first cue was written in a DAW, the first measure of music has
often been something like 5 or 9, 327, or worse, 5234. It is important that the
score matches this, as that’s what will appear in the Pro Tools session, and it
should align with the original DAW session in case the composer needs to refer
back to it. Many orchestrators leave the empty measures in the score, but I am
not in favor of this. A few of the top orchestrators will charge for a ‘page’ during
setup (this is quite rare these days though), and leaving four empty bars will
give you the extra page when they are counted. However, you could just
instruct the music preparation team to add a page to your count later. My
issue with leaving empty measures in the score is that the ‘top’ is no longer the
actual start of the music. When I say ‘8 free to the top,’ I’m referring to the first
bar of music. If there are empty measures, it’s no longer the top.I’ve heard
others claim that the empty measures are there for the count-off, but this is
really unnecessary. Just have the top be the first bar of music and number it
accordingly. And no one needs to see some special notation of the clicks,
simple text is all that is needed. The only times clicks are notated with X X X X
etc is in live to picture scores or when the click does something odd like in a
9/8 bar where the grouping is 2/2/2/3 as opposed to the regular compound
3/3/3. Note that it is usually the orchestrator’s job to think about what click is
needed and make sure that is in the score and communicated to whoever is
setting up the Pro Tools sessions. Trim
It is not ideal to have measure numbers starting in the hundreds or thousands.
It gets messy and takes too long to say. If I am sent a cue and it starts like this, I
trim off the first digit or two so it starts with just two. So 367 = 67 and 1624 =
24. This makes it easier and neater for the session and score but it is also easy
to refer back to the original. If you make 7356 into 1, that is not going to be
easy when you are stressed trying to check something in a hurry. I label this at
the top left of the score and inform the composer’s team of the
change. Pickups
As I am orchestrating, I will identify places where we will need to stop and start
again. This could be for a mute change, technical or emotional shift, or a
tempo change. I mark this by saying ‘Pickup’ in the score. This saves us time
when recording. It is rare to record a whole cue in one go unless it is short, so
by being organized, you can save time and ensure you are breaking up the cue
in the best way that addresses both technical and musical concerns.

Key Signatures
As with most modern music, we do not use key signatures in film scores. That’s
true even if the score is completely tonal. It is much easier for the players to
have each accidental labeled. If we did use key signatures, players would end
up writing in a lot of courtesy accidentals, as they will be sight-reading and
they do not want to miss any. The one exception to this is when we record
songs, we do often use key signatures. (Okay, there was one movie where the
composer wanted to use key signatures, fantastic score, won an Oscar, rhymes
with Ma Ma Band, but a lot of first takes were blown as players missed the key
signature and then they wrote in reminders!)
Concert Pitch
All film scores are printed at concert pitch. This has been the case for thirty
years or more. Some people label this at the top of the score, but I do not. In
my time in the studios I have never seen a transposed score for a movie, so
the default assumption is that it is a concert score. The one caveat to this is
that we do transpose instruments that shift an octave to avoid a lot of ledger
lines. Piccolo, contrabassoon, glockenspiel, xylophone, celeste, guitar, and
contrabass are all printed at written pitch. Octave displacing clefs are not
needed, with the one exception to this being the tenor voice if using SATB
staves.

Again, some people feel the need to mention all this, but it is redundant. No
one ever writes these instruments at sounding pitch. If you ever do wish to
clarify something to the copyists, use hidden text that shows on the screen but
does not print. This is one thing I feel should remain just a studio practice;
concert scores should always be transposed.

Tempo and Score Indications

These go in large print above the top staff and first violin line. Use fixed size
fonts in your notation program to accomplish this; I use Times New Roman
Bold 14 Fixed. Avoid the default tempo indications. The quarter note always
seems too large to me; it should balance with the text.
DO NOT include decimals in the score. It is pointless, confusing to players and
looks daft. Just as with time code, the score is not the most official holder of
that information. It is just a guide, so rounding it off is best
practice.Descriptive and Tempo Text
I know I’m in the minority when it comes to descriptive text, but I never use it. I
never put anything at the top of a score apart from the tempo. I’ve
orchestrated and conducted every style imaginable, and it has always worked
out just fine without it. If you get the notes and dynamics right, everything falls
into place.I’ve also seen people from the concert world include tempo text like
Andante or Allegro, followed by the metronome marking. This isn’t necessary—
the tempo is simply whatever the number is. The text is just an ambiguous
label for that tempo!

Labeling Tempo Changes

I often see people label tempo changes as ‘sl. slower’ or ‘a little faster,’
sometimes followed by a metronome marking. The problem is, I have no idea
how much ‘slightly’ or ‘a little’ is and for the metronome marking to mean
anything, I really need to know what the previous one was. In my scores, I just
mark a change as -4 or +10. Now I know exactly what the change is. Some
people add this after the text and metronome marking, but if I have the
relative change, I do not need any other text. If it is a large change, say 25 bpm
or more, then saying ‘Faster’ with a new metronome marking is good. But for
small shifts, keep it simple. If there is a place that you know you will be picking
up from, it is a good idea to put a metronome marking there to save yourself
the pain of having to go back to the top and do some maths to work it out.

I will admit that this system of just printing the bpm adjustment is not
standard, but it is my preferred way of working. It is very specific and does not
waste space with redundant text. Of course this only applies to film scores,
where we have tempo maps and click tracks.

Guide Staves
I think it is important to know not just what the orchestra is playing, but also
what they are not playing! While the example page I use above is from a
session that was completely live, that is actually quite rare these days. There
are nearly always some elements staying in the box or pre-recorded.

I like to have a condensed version of everything in what I call ‘guide staves.’ It

really helps at the session to know what the orchestra needs to line up with. Is
there a synth on the same notes? A rhythm pulse we need to groove with? Are
there things we are not recording live like keyboards or percussion? This also
really helps if you are ever asked to add the orchestra to them, as you have it
right in front of you to dictate or have the copyist add to their parts. It also
helps you to know what is going on when the orchestra is NOT playing.
This example from Hawkeye shows how the guide staves contain the synths
and percussion, which was all programmed.

Multi-part Staves
I propose – and currently use – a new rule. My default is that a line is ALWAYS
a2 (or a4, etc.) unless marked otherwise. It seems like such a waste of time
writing a2, tutti, or unis. all the time. I notice that when people want just one
instrument they label that too, so what is the default? This convention is as
pointless as labeling string divisi and unison. As for using the indication for div.
when the flute splits into two parts, what else are they going to do?

In order to make sure the copyist understands what I am expecting, I have

hidden text in my score that shows on the screen but does not print. Using
hidden text is a great trick for helping the copyists (or giving reminders to
yourself). You can put in little notes and not worry that they will ever print or
be seen by the players.

Horns
We often have six or eight horns on a score and a lot of the writing is in unison.
Using three or four staves is a waste, so I use usually use one, two really
needed, and leave the copyist to split out the parts according to how many
notes there are, with the assumption that the section will divide evenly (three
players each for two notes, two each for three notes, etc.). This now needs no
labeling from me. If I want something different, I will mark it as such. The
second staff will automatically hide when not in use. Also note that in the
scoring world we do not interlock the horns in the traditional way (pitch order
= 1,3,2,4 etc). We just go in pitch order like every other section of the
orchestra, 1,2,3,4,5,6. It makes life a lot easier when it comes to making
changes. I have found that when you record in places that do not record
scores all the time, you need to communicate this to the contractor or they will
book a traditional section of high and low specialists. In the scoring world, I
generally need all to be able to play high.

While on the topic of interlocking, there was a period when orchestrators

interlocked the Violin 1 and 2 when they had four parts. I have heard several
reasons for this, from it being easier to write and read to ‘the better players sit
at the front’ (still unpacking that one, and it was twenty years ago I heard it!). I
do not believe in our current scoring world there is any advantage to this
practice unless it is a closed voicing run and it will be more readable, and just
like with the horns, it makes life harder when you make changes i you have
interlocked.

I like to use multi-part staves to maintain visual balance in the score. Double
woods can have a staff each. This also makes sense as the second player will
be doubling. For triple woods, I still like to keep it to two staves per instrument.
Player one and two on the top and the third on the bottom, as they will be the
double or different instrument. Note that, in all of my experience, the piccolo
still goes in the third (or second in the case of double woods) part.
As mentioned, I use one or two staves for the horns and it is not labeled per
part. For trumpets, I like to use two staves. If there are three trumpets,
Trumpet 1 gets the top one all on its own. Strangely, I have noticed many
people would have Trumpet 1 and 2 together on the top and Trumpet 3 on its
own. This does not make any practical sense to me as it is Trumpet 1 that will
be playing on their own if anyone, not 3, so this approach creates more work
to clarify. The trombones, however, I have first and second on the top then
third and fourth on the bottom. Tuba is always on its own. This layout allows
my eye to see and analyze the whole section easily.

Of course, if the score is complicated, then use as many staves as you need. If
there are not woods, I have been known to use more staves for the brass to
balance it out. But I avoid that in a full orchestra as it just looks lazy and wrong
to me, wish I had a better reason! For example I often see young or
inexperienced orchestrators use four staves for the horns and it does my head
in. It ruins the layout and where a conductor expects things to be. Please don’t
do it!

Choirs
Unless the music is complicated, I use a grand staff for choir. The copyist will
split it out further if need be. If the whole score is just ‘ah’ then I might put that
on the first entry, or maybe not. I know it feels like you need more, but in my
experience, if it is generic ‘ah’, they know what to do. Remember that the
dynamics and hairpins always go above, even if you don’t have any words.

Percussion
My preference is to use a full five-line staff for all percussion. Lots of people
use a single line and there is nothing wrong with that. I like five lines as I can
easily swap from mallets to untuned instruments, and I can have multiple
instruments on the one staff. I always use the same lines so it is easy to follow.
Reading in treble clef they are:

Piatti – G above staff

Suspended Cymbal – E at top of staff
Snare Drum – C
Grand Cassa – F
Tam Tam – D below staff (some people use A for this)

The cymbals and tam all get diamond (semibreve or minum) or X note heads
(crotchet and smaller). These instruments are set in stone for me, and then
other things I will fit in where it works for the cue, using the x’s for wood or
metal. Toms I like in spaces only. If you stick to the same positions, you can be
more relaxed with your labels. I only label the first entry in a cue, after that
there is no need if you use standard positions and stay consistent. Note that
the copyists will move things around in the part. If you use a single line staff,
they will nearly always move it to a five-line staff for the part. I try to stay
organized and think about who will do what, but if it gets a bit messy, good
copyists will have your back. Timpani will get its own part, the rest are copied
as a ‘percussion score’.

No pictograms for mallet choices or instruments, this is not band camp. These
are not standard and always need text to clarify, so why bother? If you are
specifying what type of mallet, immediately question your reason and
existence. Leave it to them, they know what to use and, unless you are a
percussionist and know their actual instrument and the room and microphone
placement, you will either be stating the obvious or be wrong. An exception
would be if you want something that goes against the norm. For example a
soft passage on timpani with wood mallets. Also consider what is the default, a
suspended cymbal is always played with mallets unless you say otherwise, so
no need to anything at all.
I am literal with my ringing. If I do not have a ring over, they will not let it ring! If
I want to have it ring, then I add the ring-over articulation. No other text
needed. Use an eighth note for a choked piatti, etc. I repeat, no text needed!

Just like with the measure numbers, I am not sure why you need to put boxes
around percussion names. Even some my best friends do it and all of the
copyists in LA will add them even when I don’t. But I still don’t know why! Why?
Someone tell me!

Instrument Doubling
I like to see the staff name change as well, as this makes it easy to see what
everyone is playing at any time. If you just use some text to describe the
change, unless you go and put it on every page as a reminder, it is easy for the
conductor to miss it. Changing the staff name solves this. In Finale you do this
with a staff style.

Optimization
Unless there is a long section where an entire section of the orchestra is out
and you really can go to two systems per page, never optimize the score. I am
sight-reading and want everything in the same place on each page. Also, if I
need to add parts, I want the empty staff there to write in. For concert works,
more optimization is common, but it presents the same issue as measure
numbers. If you have limited time to rehearse, I would go easy on the
optimization to make it easier for the conductor.

Rests
I prefer to have no default whole note rests. This keeps the score cleaner and,
if I need to write in new parts, there are no rests in the way. Of course, the
copyist will put them in the parts when needed, this suggestion is just for the
score.

Timecode
Some people label the timecode start on the score. I never do this unless I
have been specifically asked to, and that has not happened yet! I am the
orchestrator, not the music editor. Things change all the time and there are
other people whose job it is to make sure we are in sync. The score is not the
‘master’ these days like it was 50 years ago. Now the tempos and time codes
are all in Pro Tools. On a scoring stage, we have a music editor, a Pro Tools
operator, and a few assistants who track timecode. The last place anyone will
look, much less trust, is the score.
Picture Descriptions
I see a lot of scores, usually student or workshop ones, where they have a
‘staff’ (often just a single line) with time code references or descriptions of what
is happening on screen. This looks really cool on insta, but is not necessary. Of
course if your client asks for it, then go for it. I do it when asked, and the last
time that happened was, um, never! I will update this if someone does request
it. Many of these scores also seem to have overly large, large time signatures. I
guess it is a double flex!

Binding
For scoring sessions, always tape the score accordion style. Put a spine on
anything larger than four pages but do not include the first and last pages in it.
This allows the conductor to open up three pages at the top and three at the
end, saving some turns. Do not bind with plastic or rings. It is very hard to turn
pages in such a score without making noise.

Paper Size
In the US we use Tabloid, which is 11″ x 17″. In Europe and Australia, they use
A3, which is a little bigger. For the conductor, the paper should be heavy
enough that it holds some of its shape when turning a page. Too thin, and it is
impossible to turn quietly.

If the system size is small, do not increase the percentage or distance between
the staves so it covers more of the page. Instead, have two or more systems
per page. You might have adjust some settings as creating space between
staves seems to be an unfortunate default ‘feature’ in some programs.

Avoid making landscape scores. It is very hard to turn these pages quietly.

A Legit Perspective
I ran this post by Benjamin Northey, Associate Conductor of the Melbourne
Symphony Orchestra. Ben conducts a lot of new music.

“Conductors need easily visible time signatures which don’t get in the way of notes.
If they are disproportionately big you end up only seeing them and not the detail in
the score. The first example looks integrated into the music which is what you want.
Measure [numbers] down the bottom, great for easy locating.”

Ben also prefers un-optimized scores as it is much easier to keep his place
from page to page.

Finale Tips for Scores

How to make Large Time Signatures.
How to set up your score for easy and accurate Optimization.
Using hidden Measure Number Regions for better navigation.
How to set up staff names Staff Names.

NEXT:
String Section Sizes

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The Wagner Tuba

POSTED IN: CONDUCTING • NOTATION • ORCHESTRATION • TRICKS

TAGGED IN: FINALE • LAYOUT • SCORES

30 Comments

Brando
June 23, 2024 at 8:37 am

This is a great resource, thank you!

For changing percussion (or other) score staff names when there
is an instrument change, do you apply the new staff style / or
instrument change at the first measure of the new instrument, or
at the beginning of that system?

REPLY
  Tim
June 23, 2024 at 8:33 pm

Hi. If the clef is not changing, it is easy, I will just apply it as

soon as the previous instrument is done, that way it will be
on the next system no matter what. If clefs change or it is a
live score with a key signature, then it is more of a pain as
you have to see how the page lays out. Might even need 2
staff styles. One to make the score look right with the
name and another to have the clef/key sig change at the
right time, which would be right on the new entry, not
before it.

REPLY

Leonard
March 16, 2023 at 6:46 am

Hi Tim! Thank you very much for this blog. It explains and helps
with so many things, that it’s probably impossible to find in any
orchestration book. I’m writing an original song now. For the first
time in my life I plan to record it with live orchestra. I’ve never
been working yet with such. The idea is to record the sections
separately to have more control on mixing, as it’s a song. Most of
time I think about composing and orchestrating in terms of film
scoring. So by default I prepare scores in concert pitch, with no
key signatures. But it’s true that for songs (even in films) people
almost always use key signatures as an exception. For my song I
have also put key signatures in this case. Many people (especially
in various Facebook groups) tell me that I shouldn’t make it in
concert pitch, but make a transposed conductor’s score. I’m a bit
confused now, because scoring it with film techniques expects
you to write it in concert. But it’s not a film in this case, nor a live
performance – it’s going to be a very layered recording of a song,
with many instruments recorded separately, in different studios,
halls. How would you do in this case? Would you make a
transposed score for a song or work in a concert pitch? What are
your methods for songs recording? When you record a song for a
film do you use a concert score with key signatures or a
transposed one?

And also – I was confused, thinking that Timpani and Horns

should never have key signatures, even if a whole score has
them, like in classical music scores, when horns were natural and
timpani had no pedals. I think I have had a lack of knowledge
onto this. Could you make things brighter in my head, please? If I
have a concert score with key signatures on all instruments,
except obviously untuned perc, do Timpani and Horns have to
have key signatures as well as all other instruments?

Thank you!!

REPLY

 Tim
December 27, 2023 at 4:30 pm

Correct about the key signatures. I just did some arranging

for Alan Menken’s next score and I used them. Horns can
go either way these days. Ask 3 horn players and you will
get 4 different answers, but will all say they can handle it
either way. Timpani I still prefer it to have no key sig. As to
transposed scores or not, it is your gig, so do whatever you
feel most comfortable with.

REPLY

Kostas
January 14, 2022 at 9:35 pm

Very cool info Tim. Can you include the heaviness of the paper for
the conductor’s score and the parts at the PAPER SIZE section? I
mean what you usually use. Thanks

REPLY
lowefinney0327
January 27, 2021 at 10:13 pm

Do you (anyone) see condensed scores in the studio? Or, when

do your, e.g., flutes, share a staff together versus having separate
staves? Same for horns, etc. I notice the example you’ve included
here shows two flutes each on a separate staff. The conductors
I’ve worked with for live concerts prefer condensed scoring so
that each section is grouped more tightly and the page isn’t
overwhelming. I tend to score every instrument to a single staff
and then condense where needed/requested (but it’s a bit of a
pain). Does it matter or is there a recommendation for the
studio? Thanks.

REPLY

 Tim
September 16, 2021 at 10:49 am

If there are double winds, we will have them on their own

staves. With triple I will use multi-part staves to save space.
I keep it consistent per cue so the conductors eye is not
jumping up and down and can predict where things will be
page to page.

REPLY

 Tim
December 10, 2021 at 3:35 pm

Sorry for slow reply. For the woods as they are often
doubling, I will have 2 staves for the flutes as you noted.
For horns they are in all sorts of combinations, but often
unison. I just use 2 staff most of the time and the copyist
splits the parts out. We do not interlock in the studio, so it
is just pitch = number order as opposed to the concert
hall.
When I do scores for the concert hall, I do them the normal
way, with horns properly written. I do find it is OK to have
 woods on 2 staves per section whether it is double or
triple, again due to doubling.
I am not a fan of having all the brass on their own staves in
film scores, I see it often and it is a waste of space and
makes it harder for me to see a whole score.

REPLY

David Paul Jones

April 24, 2020 at 1:21 am

Great website Tim. Thank you for a fantastic resource. Delighted I

stumbled upon it and will certainly be returning. Greetings from
Edinburgh, Scotland.

REPLY

musicalmusings888030662
November 18, 2018 at 9:56 am

Hi Tim,
Great blog! I am preparing a score that has a 15-measure rest
right in the middle of the cue- would you notate a 15 bar
multirest in the conductor’s score or just leave the bars empty?
Thanks!

REPLY

 Tim
January 18, 2022 at 12:51 pm

It depends on what is happening. If there really is nothing,

then the rest is fine. But if there is something in the track,
it would be noted in the guide staves, the rest of the
orchestra could be optimized out so that would then just
take up a single page.
 REPLY

sonia
September 25, 2018 at 4:36 am

Wagner filled his scores with so many instruments that he

developed a blinky eye. so it is better to come back to healthier
and reasonable scores, the eyes of the conductor are not those
of a chamaleon.

REPLY

Peter Roos
September 8, 2018 at 2:10 pm

Hi Tim:

Quick question — what is the recommended maximum amount

of staffs per page (tabloid, 11 x 17 inches) to keep everything
readable for the conductor?

Thanks!

REPLY

 Tim
January 18, 2022 at 2:10 pm

Not sure of an exact number as there are lots of factors.

So long as it is readable, then it can be a lot. But each
section has to be readable in one glance.

REPLY
Michael
May 6, 2017 at 9:30 am

Regarding score layout, shout an instrument list be included in

the score, specifically for cues that include lots of percussion and
alternating instruments? If so, should it be on the last page of the
score to reduce page turns during a recording? I am a composer
in Nashville, planning on moving to LA in October. Thank you for
this valuable information!

REPLY

 Tim
May 7, 2017 at 10:37 pm

In the scoring world the copyists take care of lists like that
so we never both.

REPLY

bob carwell
December 31, 2015 at 7:19 am

Any suggestions on a printer that handles 11 x 17 ?

REPLY

Musicianship Class #2- January 8, 2015 | DGrant

Jazz Classroom Blog
January 8, 2015 at 10:26 am

[…] http://www.timusic.net/notation/how-to-score/#.VK6syEgqYjI
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REPLY
Tim Davies’s “deBreved” Finale tips translated into
Sibelius
June 8, 2014 at 5:24 am

[…] is not in Tim’s Finale tips post, but it appears elsewhere in his
blog in the post “How to Score.” He prefers to have no default
whole note rests. To switch these off throughout your score […]

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Jazz Notation - The Default | - deBreved - Tim Davies

Website- deBreved – Tim Davies Website
January 7, 2014 at 7:14 pm

[…] lines, and should be portrait, as should big band with strings.
(For more on orchestral layouts, check here.) For example, my
scores for the Metropole Orchestra are portrait.¬? 8 measures to
a page. Make […]

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Michael
October 17, 2013 at 2:01 pm

Hi Tim! Amazing blog, by the way. Incredibly helpful.

It was very interesting to hear that everything is discussed in
concert pitch when relaying changes to the orchestra. So for
example, you tell the trumpets to play a “Bb” and so they write
down on their parts a “C”? Is this the standard communication
procedure for just LA sessions or is it also used in other major
places where film scores are recorded, such as with the LSO?

Thanks!
Michael

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  Tim
October 21, 2013 at 9:03 am

In LA for sure. In London I talk transposed, but they can

handle it either way. The thing is that in the concert world,
it is not that common to go and change a lot of notes, or
re-write music on the stand, but we do it all the time. So
calling out a change once for many people in concert
makes sense as a timesaver and is safer. It took me a while
to come around to this though, but I think it was more
being stubborn, thinking I was dumbing it down by talking
in concert, which seems to be the reaction by many
people.

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Michael O. Hurwitz
October 16, 2013 at 11:52 am

Nice article. But why would you not mark the string divisis?
Otherwise it’s a double stop. Do you bracket every double stop?

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 Tim
October 16, 2013 at 12:08 pm

Thanks.
The common perception is that if you do not say divisi,
they will play a double stop. I have found that in most
cases, that is not what happens. As I have explained, in
there are many reasons why double stops are to be
avoided. String sections do not like playing them, for the
same reasons. If I want a double stop, I use a bracket on
the notes, and will often have to ask them to play it as such
or they will ignore it. As the players will divide by default, I
do not see any reason to waste time and ink telling them
 to divide, let alone play unison when there is only one
note. I have conducted many scores where the
orchestrator has forgotten to put unison and half the
section has never stopped playing. Many people do not
feel comfortable leaving out the div markings, that is fine,
my overall point though is that you can not trust that what
you thought was being played as a double stop, there is a
very good chance the section divided it.

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Finale Tips | deBreved - Tim Davies Orchestration

BlogdeBreved – Tim Davies Orchestration Blog
June 17, 2013 at 5:55 pm

[…] Scores […]

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Philip @ NYC Music Services

June 10, 2013 at 5:07 am

Hi Tim,

Well done, as usual! I was wondering what your opinion was on

this article about concert vs. transposing scores:

http://www.filmmusicmag.com/?p=2661

I was also wondering if your key signature rule was absolute, or if

you would ever use a key signature in a cue in which the music
was very tonal AND the key had many flats or sharps AND there
were a lot of notes in scale runs, etc. Do you think all the
accidentals would still be helpful or would they end up being
distracting. I have done this on occasion when many accidentals
seemed to get in the way of spacing and readability.

Like your sensible new rule for multi-part staves, I was wondering
if these rules about keys and transposed scores could be due for
some updating.

Philip

REPLY

 Tim
June 10, 2013 at 1:00 pm

Hi Philip
I read the article, it makes some good points and Matt
Dunkley’s comment is also really good. In a nutshell, lots of
people have to read the scores and some will not be
familiar or quick enough to work with transposed scores.

The session players deal with a lot of different people, so

the general rule is everything is discussed at concert pitch.
It makes sense when we are dictating new notes too, we
may be giving the change to transposing and non-
transposing instruments so easier to do it once in concert.
When I write for my big band, I always transpose the score,
it looks wrong to me otherwise and that applies to people
who work on legit music, concert scores look weird. I find
there is also a huge snob factor to it.

There is the argument that the sweet spot of the

instrument is centered on their transposed clef. This is
very valid and I do think like that when I work, but I am
used to seeing the concert pitch notes and right away I see
it transposed in my head. That is just a matter of training
yourself to think like that. So to me that is not a deal
breaker.

WIth regard to key signatures, I would still not use them,

even if the piece was completely tonal and never
modulated. On a session we fly through cues. On TV
shows, we often have to get a few of them first take, so
having every accidental marked helps. The players do not
find it distracting, they prefer it, I just doubled checked
 with a few of them to make sure. On a pop song, I will use
them as we often only do 1 to 4 songs in a session, the
pace is slower and the pieces are generally longer than
film cues and they are in a key.

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Philip @ NYC Music Services

June 10, 2013 at 1:21 pm

Thanks for the reply and additional insight in

context.

I’m really enjoying your posts and we were

discussing it this week at a film scoring workshop
here in New York. Thanks for making the time to do
this. Looking forward to the next one.

REPLY

Jimmy
June 8, 2013 at 9:54 am

Hi,

Enjoying your blog. Question:

I’m a stage show and musical theatre arranger/orchestrator with

no film experience. On a film big enough to have a large score, a
live orchestra, an orchestrator who isn’t the composer, and
copyist(s), will that copyist also be copying and binding your score
as well as the parts? Will s/he be the one who decides on the
exact layout and details of the score and part?

I totally understand the value of knowing how to do it. Also, I

assume there may be gigs where there is no one to do the
copywork and you have to do it all. However, as the orchestrator,
are you working at blazing speed and giving that work to the
copyist to create the final pieces for the sessions, including the
 score? Thanks.

Be Well,

Jimmy

REPLY

 Tim
June 8, 2013 at 10:23 am

Hi Jimmy
I lay out the score then send it to the copyists. They extract
the parts but do not touch my score apart from printing it
out. However, before I send it I have a proof reader who
looks over the score. He may tweak the lay out a bit, fill in
any dynamics or articulations I missed. I do like to go fast,
so having a second pair of eyes looking over it is well worth
it. I was a copyist so try to make it as easy as possible for
them. Depending on the project, it will go to one of the big
copy houses in LA or to my own guys. If it goes to my own,
then the parts will be done in linked parts, all in the same
file as the score. In order for this to work, I really have to
be careful how I do things. When I was first starting, I was
doing it all myself. I am lucky now that every job I do has a
budget for music prep.
I will be doing more posts about my process.

REPLY

Leave a Reply
EXPLORE DEBREVED:
Introduction
The Orchestral Default
Over-Notation Nation
A Neglected Relationship
Dynamic Affairs
Parlare del niente, a rant about nothing
Divide and Conquer
Double [stop] Trouble
The More You Bow
What You See Is Not Always What You Get
Tremolo and the abstract truth
A Trilling Experience
Swell Enough
In Touch with Harmonics
It’s the Pizz
It’s Staggering
The French Horn
The Wagner Tuba
How to Score
String Section Sizes
Extreme Australian Orchestration
Conducting Part 1
Conducting Part 2
Conducting Part 3
Conducting Part 4
Is it ‘Ahh’ or ‘Aah’? Choir Session Tips
Stacking
Stating the obvious, why say it twice?
Jazz Part 1
Jazz Melody and Voicing Part 2
Jim Thatcher Part 1
Jim Thatcher Part 2 & 3
Endre Granat Part 1
Endre Granat Part 2
 Endre Granat Part 3
Finale Tips
Resources
Jazz Notation – The Default
Jazz Notation – Chords and Drums
The Debreved Studio Conducting Insensitive Workout
Error Code 7 – A Deep Dive: Part 1
Error Code 7 – A Deep Dive: Part 2
Tenuto Uh-Oh
Killer Mike Overture
My Orchestration and Arranging Setup

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