Talk:Killing of Timothy Russell and Malissa Williams

michael brelo

should there be a page for Michael Brelo? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.51.236.225 (talk) 17:49, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

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Requested move 26 September 2020

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus. After much-extended time for discussion, no consensus has been developed in favor of the proposed move. BD2412 T 21:07, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Shooting of Timothy Russell and Malissa Williams → Killing of Timothy Russell and Malissa Williams – The perpetrators fired a total of 137 shots. Each victim was struck at least 23 times each. The victims were unarmed. The victims were both killed. One of the perpetrators jumped on the trunk of the car and continued to fire. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 14:56, 26 September 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Primefac (talk) 17:10, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:CONSISTENCY. Although I sympathize with the points raised in the nomination and would support a move of the current main title header to Fatal shooting of Timothy Russell and Malissa Williams if there was consensus for the creation of the header form "Fatal shooting of...", I cannot support single-entry moves while most other such entries remain under "Shooting of..." main headers. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 03:33, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

• Neutral. On the basis of the extensive additional detail provided by the nominator, confirming that there is no longer a firm consensus regarding WP:CONSISTENCY as far as "Shooting of..." main title headers are concerned, I am striking my "Oppose" vote of 03:33, 27 September 2020, above. Although I still feel that killing through the use of a firearm is a very determinate form of violence, in comparison to other forms, such as stabbing or strangulation, and therefore should be specified in the main header, the fact that there is no apparent consensus for the header form "Fatal shooting of..." and also the fact that there are a number of "Shooting of.." main headers that delineate non-fatal shootings (Category:Non-fatal shootings), leads me to drop my opposition to the use of "Killing of..." as headers of articles delineating killings through the use of a firearm. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:43, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose: If the argument is naming consistency, there are many many more articles about fatal shootings that are named "Shooting of" than "Killing of". Renamings in the other direction would be the way to resolve the fact that a small number of articles are inconsistent with that general convention. —BarrelProof (talk) 04:33, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Responding to the comment below which might make it appear that "Killing of" has a clearly dominant consensus on Wikipedia, I refer the reader to the RM discussions at Talk:Shooting of Patrick Harmon#Requested move 24 November 2019, Talk:Shooting of Atatiana Jefferson#Requested move 14 May 2020 (multiple), Talk:Shooting of Breonna Taylor/Archive 1#Requested move 23 May 2020 (multiple), Talk:Shooting of David McAtee#3 June 2020, Talk:Shooting of James Scurlock#3 June 2020, Talk:Shooting of Oscar Grant#6 June 2020, Talk:Shooting of Kathryn Johnston#6 June 2020, Talk:Shooting of Sammy Yatim#Requested move 4 June 2020 (multiple), Talk:Shooting of Roni Levi#Requested move 18 June 2020 (multiple), Talk:Shooting of Benno Ohnesorg#Requested move 26 June 2020, Talk:Shooting of Chaiyaphum Pasae#Requested move 26 June 2020, Talk:Shooting of Neda Agha-Soltan#Requested move 2 July 2020, and Talk:Shooting of James Ashley#Requested move 3 July 2020. —BarrelProof (talk) 23:45, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom, same rationale as Talk:Shooting of Emantic Fitzgerald Bradford Jr.#Requested move 9 October 2020. In the absence of a definitive common name for this particular topic, articles about fatal shootings in which there has been no murder conviction should be titled "Killing of...", for the reasons discussed in recent, widely-attended, similar move requests, e.g. Talk:Killing of Osama bin Laden#Requested move 6 September 2020, Talk:Killing of Greg Gunn#Requested move 3 September 2020, Talk:Killing of Ahmaud Arbery/Archive 8#Requested move 21 June 2020, and Talk:Killing of Rayshard Brooks/Archive 1#Requested move 14 June 2020. Lev!vich 02:33, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
• Support I came across this a little while back and literally couldn't tell until I was well into the body whether both of them had died. The fact they died is so much more important than the fact they were shot. —valereee (talk) 17:01, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - I am concerned that no attempt has been made by the Nom to determine the WP:COMMONNAME of the subject in the sources - we are just told by the Nom that there is no common-name. Actually the GNews hits clearly favour "shooting of" over "killing of". For example, "Shooting of Timothy Russell" returns 14 hits whilst "Killing of Timothy Russell" returns only 6. Similarly "Killing of Malissa Williams" returns only one GNews hit whilst "Shooting of Malissa Williams" returns two. The "shooting of" formula is thus used in news sources twice as often as the "killing of..." formula and is thus clearly the common-name. FOARP (talk) 10:39, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

• You failed to account for "fatal". --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 21:02, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

If you want to do the analysis to check whether that is the common name they go ahead and do it, all I'm saying here is that the nom says there is no common name and that clearly isn't true - reliable sources do tend to refer to this as "shooting" not "killing". FOARP (talk) 10:54, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

I have done the analysis. There is no clear winner between "shooting", "fatal shooting", "killing", or "death". --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 20:13, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Without showing us the results that confirm this, there is no reason to believe this other than your assertion. "Fatal Shooting of Timothy Russell" returns only five GNews hits. "Death of Timothy Russell" returns only six GNews hits. "Shooting of..." with 14 GNews hits is still the leading formula and as such the WP:COMMONNAME, particularly over the proposed title.

I'm going to AGF, but if you did do the analysis, you never showed your working, and it appears that the usage of these terms can be compared with a clear winner in terms of usage. FOARP (talk) 08:46, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Shooting section

We need a reliable source for the following sentence in the shooting section, which I have just tagged with citation needed: ‘The amount of gunfire confused the officers into thinking they were being fired at from the vehicle’. The reason is that this sentence surely means that some officers thought that gunfire from other officers was actually coming from the suspects’ car, which is a claim that we don’t have a source for. In any case, we should surely use the word allegedly in this sentence and say something like ‘The amount of gunfire allegedly confused the officers into thinking they were being fired at from the vehicle’ - we shouldn’t take them at their word as they’re not unbiased passive observers, instead they have a strong self-interest in justifying firing the large number of bullets that they did. Overlordnat1 (talk) 03:25, 13 January 2022 (UTC)