Template talk:Music of Greece

Image Template

Hello I think that the previous image 1 represents a Greek scenery. So why is it controversial? --109.242.100.128 (talk) 20:16, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Are you talking about the Roman sarcophagus? I don't think it's controversial. I just don't think it's very Greek. Anybody who knows Roman sarcophagi will see it and think "Roman sarcophagus," not "Greek music." I left a message at User talk:Cplakidas because I knew he was interested in all things Greek. I haven't made any changes to the Greek music template—only suggested that there must be an image that reads "Greek music" at a glance. A sarcophagus relief is always a bit tricky to "read", let alone at a size for a sidebar, because they tend to be crowded with tiny figures. The only purpose of an image in a navbox or sidebar is to create a quick visual association with the topic, or provide a bit of information that would be useful for all the related topics (like a map). You can see the discussion at the other user's page. It's not a big deal if people are wedded to the sarcophagus, even though I would find it odd to want to impose an ancient Roman image on a Greek topic that isn't even confined to antiquity. Cynwolfe (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Boyzoyki image isn't apropriate,but cheap and unilateral. It's a general article about music not for instruments, there is so culture in Greece, I think it's quite far better look this --109.242.100.128 (talk) 20:38, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

OK, I'm not really that interested in this except as a graphics problem to play with. I don't know that much about the history of Greek music outside antiquity. My only purpose was to question whether a Roman sarcophagus was the best way to illustrate "Greek music" throughout all time. Apollo with a lyre seems to me a better way to go, if that's the consensus of editors working on the topic area. You might want to continue the discussion for alternatives at the template's talk page. Cynwolfe (talk) 20:45, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Hello, because the pic on this template was my idea I entitled to unite and agree with ip's opinion, Apollo with a lyre seems to me a good idea too. So i am gonna store it on template, consensus is ok thanks--Heavypic (talk) 20:54, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Wow, a consensus of an IP and his registered account. Motion proposed and settled, all in one move, then? I am reverting because a) the consencus is bogus and b) IMO the Apollo image does not convey "Greek music". One would have to know a) that this is Apollo and that b) Apollo was the god of music. Otherwise its a (Roman-era) statue of someone with a harp. Now, I don't know what people picture under "Ancient Greek music", but with plain "Greek music", I guess Zorba and everything related would be the winner. If there is an emblematic musical instrument (and hence also a musical type) for modern Greece, it's the bouzouki. Stereotypical, tourist-folklore-ish it may be, but it is also a fact. Constantine ✍ 21:17, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Just to prevent this from becoming a silly revert-war, I begin to think that no image would be better. Constantine ✍

Until we deside no image is better idea (a simple pic of bouzouki like an instrument article noway) to enslave Greek music is what matters want --Heavypic (talk) 21:22, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry, but what exactly does "enslave Greek music is what matters want" mean in the first place? In terms of recognizability, the bouzouki is the Greek instrument par excellence. Whether you like it or not is irrelevant. Constantine ✍ 21:28, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

There is a consensus with Cynowolf, we store an image if we want to use this for attribute Greekness with any way. It doesn't matter the statue - By the other hand bouzouki image (I like to listen bouzouki but) isn't apropriate, but cheap and unilateral.--Heavypic (talk) 21:30, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

"You might want to continue the discussion for alternatives at the template's talk page" doesn't sound like consensus of the "yeah, let's definitely do this" type. You think the bouzouki "cheap", but it is the dominant instrument in modern Greek music. As a Greek myself, I should know. And may I remind that the template is mostly about modern Greek music, not ancient. Ancient Greek music is only in the template as a historical reference. Constantine ✍ 21:37, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

What does this really means? We got guitars, Lyres and other instruments that exist today. This template also represants Ancient, Byzantine, Ionian, Laiko etc music, (not only skiladiko for example) --Heavypic (talk) 21:41, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

This means that in Dimotika, Greek folk music, Laïko, Entechno, Rebetiko, Skiladiko as well as often in Greek Rock, bouzouki is used. It is one of the very few peculiarly Greek instruments and one of the most widely used. Your disdain for it is unfounded. Αν είσαι Έλληνας, ελπίζω να μην υποστηρίζεις στα σοβαρά ότι το μπουζούκι δεν είναι ίσως το πιο αντιπροσωπευτικό ελληνικό όργανο. Το ότι το χρησιμοποιούν και στα σκυλάδικα είναι παντελώς αδιάφορο, με το ίδιο κριτήριο πρέπει να μην καταδεχόμαστε και τα γαρύφαλλα. Constantine ✍ 21:48, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

My image indicates what we call music of Greece, just an image like bouzouki, indicates Greek musical instruments, am I clear now>? (p.s. I like Greek music, so I like skiladiko too) --Heavypic (talk) 21:54, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

As I wrote above, no it doesn't. If I see this, because I know what it is, I think "Apollo", not "Greek music". The average user won't think of either because he/she has no clue what this statue represents. And you seriously argue that the statue of an ancient god holding an instrument that is not used for 2,000 years now is more representative than the instrument commonly associated with modern Greek music? Some serious double standards there, mate. Constantine ✍ 21:57, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Is there another proposal than a simple musical instrument to be accepted for discussion? --Heavypic (talk) 22:00, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

We discussed a couple with Cynwolfe back at my page, but there's a basic flaw in your argument: by definition any suitable image will be a depiction of an instrument in some way, because its the only way an image can convey the notion of "music". However, what about no image at all? Otherwise our grandchildren will still be arguing about it... Constantine ✍ 22:03, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

This is another one proposal. A Greek vase that depicts a music lesson. (p.s. Last time (years) bouzouki isn't the main instrument that represents the Greek music, even the modern Greek music. I live in Greece and I listen radio all time)--Heavypic (talk) 22:07, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

All right, this is an image I can accept. As for what you listen to in the radio, it is probably not "Greek" music, but what is in effect international pop/rock/metal etc. Except for the language, there is nothing specifically Greek about it. Cheers, Constantine ✍ 22:21, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Last years in Greek radios, there are listens of Greek Lyrism and just of simple songs. It simply means that If we go just few periods back we ll see (and we everybody know) that Greek music is that, the Lyrism, Greek music is the Poetry, the chants and the ancient drama. That's what we call Greek music. By the other hand I like the Byzantine listenings like rebetiko and bouzouki also. I have no limits in music. I go for the store --Heavypic (talk) 22:30, 17 June 2012 (UTC)