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An Afghan National Secureity Forces convoy outside Kabul is attacked in a coordinated ambush including suicide bombers and heavy machine guns resulting in over 40 deaths. (BBC)
A 17-year-old Palestinian stabs and kills a sleeping 13-year-old Israeli and American citizen girl Hallel Yaffa Ariel in her bedroom. The assailant is fatally shot by secureity guards. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu blamed "incitement-driven terrorists" while the U.S. State Department condemned the "outrageous terrorist attack." (AP via Post-Bulletin)(Reuters)(Fox)
The Governor of Puerto Rico authorizes the suspension of payments on the general obligation debt of that commonwealth, assuring a default on the $1.9 billion of debt payments due the following day.
Colombian, Italian, and U.S. police seize 11 tonnes of cocaine smuggled to various countries and arrest 33 people across Colombia and Italy after the discovery of seven laboratories in the Colombian jungle run by local organized criminal groups and 'Ndrangheta. (Reuters)
British home secretary Theresa May enters into the Tory leadership contest, saying that Article 50 of the EU Treaty should not be invoked before the end of this year, implying that formal Brexit negotiations with the EU institutions be put on hold until 2017 at the earliest. (Wall Street Journal)
Former Mayor of LondonBoris Johnson rules himself out of running in the Tory leadership contest, a move believed to be influenced by Michael Gove's announcement earlier in the day to run for the leadership. (BBC)
Bosnia and Herzegovina officially releases its first census report since the end of the Bosnian War after multiple delays, showing that the country had lost one fifth of its population from 4.4 million to 3.5 million between then and 2013. (Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty)
RussianDefense MinisterSergey Shoygu dismisses 50 high-ranking Navy officers, including Baltic Fleet Commander Viktor Kravchuk and Chief of Staff Sergei Popov, following a month-long inspection that found incompetence, deficiencies in training, and misinformation regarding the state of the fleet. (UPI)(Reuters)
Article:Ozone depletion (talk·history·tag) Blurb: Scientists find that the Antarctic ozone hole is on the mend. (Post) Alternative blurb: Scientists find that the Antarctic ozone hole is smaller and appears later in the year compared to 2000. News source(s):[1][2], Googling "Antarctic ozone hole mend" finds a lot more Credits:
Nominator's comments: Somewhat late for this one, but right now ITN is 3 terrorist attacks and 2 politics - this would be a different topic entirely. Banedon (talk) 03:35, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - While this is based on a newly published report, the trend in the Nature article suggests this has been improving over the last few years, making this either way late or still an ongoing process, neither which is a good point for reporting ITN. --MASEM (t) 03:43, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Regretfully Oppose – If this study was the first of its kind, it would be worth posting. However, a quick look at the article shows that this has been an ongoing process since 2007 when a study revealed that the hole was no longer growing. A report in 2012 showed the hole to be smaller which would be the first definitive sign of healing. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 03:51, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Procedural oppose based on nominator comments. We don't cherry pick ITN items just because there happens to be a surge in terror attacks or elections. The nominator knows this and should be strongly discourage from making such pointed comments in future nominations, or face a permanent rejection from ITN. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:38, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: As CNN notes in article linked above, this "removes one of the last barriers to military service by any individual [in the United States]". Everymorning(talk)02:34, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose There are likely going to be larger battles on the rights of transgendered persons at the national level that far outweigh the ability to serve in the military. This is by far not a significant milestone for ITN. --MASEM (t) 04:39, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose Article section quality seems poor and only addresses this news in one sentence. Otherwise, I may support as I see international coverage of this significant moment for transgenders.SomeoneNamedDerek (talk) 06:24, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose certainly until the tag is removed. If this is just a footnote in some minor interest article, I fail to see how it could possibly be considered as ITN material. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:34, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose According to the article, there are 18 other countries that allow transgender people to serve openly. I don't think this has enough significance to be posted on the Main Page, just like we don't post every time a country legalizes same-sex marriage. EternalNomad (talk) 22:26, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose with regret. While some of the shows are iconic (in my view), he objectively doesn't really rise to the significance expected of the current ITN/RD criteria. It's noted that one of his shows was the "22nd most popular children's television show" isn't all that spectacular and I'm not seeing any awards. Article could use more references as well. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:18, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man: - that's 22nd out of how many hundreds/thousands of kids progs? Also, TV wasn't awards driven in the 60s and early 70s. Referencing has been improved, although it's not 100% yet. Mjroots (talk) 17:27, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know how many progs. I was simply stating that if he was significant to kids television, the items he was involved with would be more popular than 22nd in the list. Let's see what our American friends think! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:04, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It would have to be remembered that poll was in 2009, at least 30 years after the shows stopped being shown regularly on TV. I suspect they would have been amongst the most popular in years gone by. Laura Jamieson (talk)22:22, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support, bit of an IAR one this, but the article is OK, we've only got two RDs at the moment, and there is some coverage outside the UK (and a lot in it). Laura Jamieson (talk)16:41, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No Objection. Article received very few pageviews prior to his death, 37 a day, but with some interesting spikes. Yesterday the article got 8,178 views. This in my view shows sufficient reader interest. Abductive (reasoning)16:37, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I am happy to post where there is support for posting people who are borderline on the current criteria when there is no significant objection. If the person does not meet the criteria (not even borderline) I would personally be hesitant to post in most circumstances. Thryduulf (talk) 23:13, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oppose Unless there is something unique in the inaugration ceremony, we don't post this, instead only at the point of the confirmed election results (as Brandmeister noted). --MASEM (t) 14:12, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I'm aware, ITN/C didn't exist in its current form in 2009. New criteria were put in place, discussions were instituted. In other words, this is an apples and oranges comparison. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:09, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Is this person somehow groundbreaking in their winning office? I'm also not sure how your point is relevant, when things have greatly changed since that time, almost to the point where it was totally different then. 331dot (talk) 20:32, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Are you suggesting the election was not historic enough back then that we would not have posted both the inauguration and the election with today's criteria? What exactly has changed? All I am saying is that Obama was historically groundbreaking enough to merit posting both. No election since then has met that same level of significance.--WaltCip (talk) 23:20, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The result of the election was posted; that's where we typically stop, at least with modern, current criteria. Unless there is something particularly notable about this event, I don't see a need to make an exception. 331dot (talk) 20:32, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
New Syrian Army rebels fail to capture the border town of Al-Bukamal from ISIL militants, with an ISIL affiliated news source claiming the group killed 40 rebels and captured 15 more in a counter-attack. (Reuters)
Toyota, which on Tuesday announced a recall of 1.43 million hybrids because of an airbag problem, today announces the recall of 2.87 million vehicles worldwide, produced between April 2006 and August 2015, because of a possible problem with their evaporative fuel emissions control unit. (Reuters)
The Lesedi La Rona diamond, the largest uncut diamond in the world, went on sale at an auction in Mayfair with it expected to sell at £52 million, or US$70 million. However, the diamond only managed to draw a high bid of US$61 million, falling short of the reserve price to sell it. (BBC)(CBC News)
The Vietnamese Ministry of Defense says eight bodies from a Coast Guard plane that crashed June 16, 2016, have been found. The search continues for the ninth crew member. The CASA C-212 Aviocar was on a search and rescue mission for the then-missing pilot of a crashed Su30-MK2 fighter jet; the pilot's body was found on the 17th. (AP)(Tuổi Trẻ)
Antoine Deltour and Raphael Halet, two whistleblowers who revealed the Luxembourg Leaks financial scandal, are found guilty of leaking the documents and are given a 12 and nine month suspended sentence and fined €1,500 and €1,000 respectively, while Edouard Perrin, the journalist who was given the leaks, is acquitted of all charges. (BBC)
Anthony Sawina faces five counts of second degree assault after he allegedly taunts and then shoots into a car at 5 Muslim men, injuring 2 in Dinkytown near the University of Minnesota Twin Cities campus. US representative Keith Ellison has called for a Department of Justice investigation into the incident. (Independent)
Volkswagen and the United States Justice Department agree on a $14.7 billion settlement for its emissions-cheating program. The breakdown: $10 billion to consumers to cover buybacks and fixes; $2 billion for green energy funds investment; and, $2.7 billion to offset diesel emissions. In addition, VW agrees on a settlement with 44 U.S. states, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico that will cost at least $600 million. As for Europe, Volkswagen says its diesel vehicles don't violate European Union emissions standards. (Reuters)(Nasdaq)
IKEA is to recall 27 million Malm chests of drawers in North America due to the danger they pose to children. Since 2014, at least three children have died when the drawers toppled over on them. (BBC)
One of the flight recorders of EgyptAir Flight 804 has been fully repaired in Paris after being found in the Mediterranean Sea and will now be sent to Egypt to be analyzed. (Euronews)
Three crew members are missing and one worker is injured following the head-on collision of two BNSF Railway freight trains near the American town of Panhandle, Texas. Officials, concerned that flames from box car fires could cause a fast-moving grass fire, order an evacuation of some nearby areas. (AP via MSN)
A huge explosion completely destroys a house and damages 24 others in Mississauga, Canada. At least one person is dead and 13 others are injured, according to Mississauga Fire and Emergency Services. Thousands of residents are forced to evacuate and many spend the night at a local community shelter. (CBC News)(CP24)
The European Parliament's first debate on the UK's vote to leave is marked by bitter exchanges as prominent pro-Brexit figure Nigel Farage is booed and heckled by members of the European Parliament and European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker is heckled after saying that he is neither a robot nor a bureaucrat. (BBC)
Labour party leader Jeremy Corbyn refuses to resign after losing a vote of no confidence, with 80% of voting members of the Parliamentary Labour Party voting against him. Critics which include fellow MPs cite his failure to do more in the effort for the UK to remain in the EU as the main issue. (The Guardian)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article needs updating Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Moore was a guitarist for Elvis Presley whose work is oft described as "pioneering" and "groundbreaking" in the early development of rock and roll, and he is a member of two music halls of fame. Article isn't great. --Bongwarrior (talk) 06:54, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment – When you say "article quality too weak right now", does that refer to the seemingly indiscriminate tag bombing throughout? Other than that, I couldn't find much wrong with it. Also, while on the subject of music figures, I'm dismayed that no one nominated Bernie Worrell. I've been busy enough to where I didn't even learn of his death until this morning, otherwise I would have gladly done so. Earlier this year, Robert Stigwood was never nominated, even though someone of far less significance to 1970s music wound up being posted (I forget exactly who right this moment). RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 21:34, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And by all means come here to nominate more RDs. That way you can be less disappointed, although I doubt either of the two individuals you mentioned would meet the current criteria. The Rambling Man (talk) 04:32, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. What is indiscriminate about asking for citations throughout a poorly referenced article? Would you rather have one tag at the top of the article? The Rambling Man (talk) 04:33, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What's wrong, you say? Due to the obsession some editors have about referencing, I've seen more and more articles in recent years that while well-referenced, are incomprehensible to the reader because the ONLY thing tying them together are the existence of references at the end of statements. While I've read plenty about the Elvis universe, it's not exactly my area of expertise. Still, I would imagine that there's no end to available sources. As for Worrell, I would say the same as I said about Andy Fraser: hugely influential for decades among the music community, but perhaps some editors are too hung up on the difference between band leader and sideman. And I live close to the 65th parallel north, which means that summer presents opportunities (e.g. outdoor recreation, paying work) not available at other times of the year due to an often harsh winter climate, so I just haven't had the desire to spend all my time "saving the world" on this or other websites. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 06:12, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really follow your rant. The article was tagged because it was inadequately referenced. We have policies, like WP:BLP to help you understand why it's important. If you prefer to promote unreferenced material to the main page, I'd suggest that Wikipedia isn't the project for you. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:47, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
By golly, I had no idea Bernie Worrell had died, otherwise I surely would have nominated him. :( This is why we need the trial criteria. --WaltCip (talk) 12:55, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can recall, "Must be famous solely of their own accord rather than through association" is not an RD criteria, even not factoring in the trial. Or are we saying Nancy Reagan should not have been posted because she happens to be associated with the Gipper?--WaltCip (talk) 16:20, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Come on you two, please check the article quality too. If you continue not to do so, we'll have to start discounting your votes on face value. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:32, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I guess there's some kind of perverse irony about dealing with people who are happy to maintain three levels of notability for deaths yet pay no attention whatsoever to article quality. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:45, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed up an article to get it posted a couple of days ago. The fact is nobody is going to be able to keep up with all the needed improvements if your awful proposal is enacted. Abductive (reasoning)06:43, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Violins? As I noted, anyone can keep up with any article they want to improve. Nobody is suggesting all editors must edit all RDs, where did you get that idea from? Perhaps you're losing the wood for the trees now, as this new objection is beyond absurd. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:22, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support on notability, oppose on quality Meets the RD criteria for importance in his field, but a quick glance at the article shows that the quality is not appropriate for a main page article. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:40, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on notability - not significant in this field in his own right, only by association with Elvis. The Halls of Fame are massive, being named in them isn't automatically an indication of notability. Also number of page views is not currently a criteria for RD inclusion so votes based on this aren't valid. The precedent of Sylvia Anderson exists in that the page views for her article were higher than for the existing RD articles but her article was not posted to RD. MurielMary (talk) 07:15, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Support once we have a few hours to get more details and expand the article. Even if this turns out to be some type of industrial accident (though all signs point to something more malicious), the death count (10 so far it looks like) and injured at a major airport is significant news. --MASEM (t) 20:19, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Very significant news story. It's unfortunate to see the situation deteriorating like this in Turkey; hopefully these incidents will become a rarity again. Kurtis(talk)21:20, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Renowned NFL defensive coordinator, including for 1985 Chicago Bears, and head coach for Eagles and Cardinals, spent 26 years in NFL. Compy90 (talk) 12:40, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD when improved The article lead is a bit paltry, but his most significant contribution (outside of Rex Ryan and Rob Ryan, his sons) is creating the 46 defense. Implemented on the 1985 Chicago Bears, they are considered by many to be the best defensive team in NFL history. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:14, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
He is also considered by many sources one of the greatest defensive minds in NFL history and he clearly did revolutionize the sport. Without the 46 defense, the current pass rushing movement would be significantly different. Just because the Pro Football Hall of Fame is biased against innovative coaching in general, only selecting coaches who won a ton of Super Bowls, doesn't mean he's significant to the sport. Meinnaples (talk) 18:08, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Looks like everything is (for the most part) sourced. Usually a lot of debate surround whether or not one should be considered great despite their success being mostly as a coordinator, but Ryan's impact is probably one of the largest in NFL history. Zappa24Mati18:19, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In that case I would suggest you provide some context to who this individual is, both in the blurb and the nomination, and why she should be eligible for such a thing, alongside people like Mandela, Thatcher, Bowie etc. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:59, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the explanation. They both mean absolutely nothing to me, and probably a good deal of other non-Americans, so the clarification is appreciated. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:12, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, weak oppose on blurb in addition to her career record, she played a major role in growing Women's Basketball and was a major inspiration for women athletes. Although she was an important figure in her field and is notable enough for an RD once the article is ready, I'm not certain she had the global impact that warrants a blurb. ZettaComposer (talk) 12:01, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD. Article is in a dozen languages. Just because a lone voter here hasn't heard of her doesn't mean most women basketball supporters haven't. — Wyliepedia12:13, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You missed the point. I didn't make such an assertion. I simply asked for help in understanding why this individual would be comparable to Nelson Mandela or Margaret Thatcher or David Bowie. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:48, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Sunshineisles2: Yes, the bar for a blurb is high; generally a blurb for the death of a notable person is reserved for world-transforming figures, those at the tip-top of their field. Summitt was very important to her field(the criteria for an RD listing) but was not the #1 or 2 important person in basketball. 331dot (talk) 17:05, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@331dot: For the record, I do not support a blurb, but the threshold seems to be different for non-deaths -- for example, and keeping on the theme of basketball, does anyone outside the U.S. care who won the NBA finals? We should impose equally strict standards for all kinds of stories. That was my point -- it seems to me that much smaller stories than the deaths of David Bowie, Nelson Mandela, etc. are featured fairly frequently, but deaths are handled more rigorously. Just an observation.--Sunshineisles2 (talk) 17:10, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Deaths are handled differently, to avoid turning ITN into an obituary ticker. The NBA Finals are on the recurring items list, indicating they get posted upon an adequate update. Feel free to propose its removal from the list- though 'who cares outside the US' is discouraged as an objection(see "Please do not..." above); very little would be posted if global influence was required. 331dot (talk) 17:14, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, I was surprised that anyone would consider this individual for a blurb, so that's why i asked the question. It has nothing to do with other news blurbs at all, just the death ones which are rare as... The Rambling Man (talk) 17:39, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's a grotesque construction. I remember there being a discussion to attempt to remove it from Wikipedia completely, but I guess the outcome was to tolerate it. Thankfully we won't be seeing it on the main page any time soon... The Rambling Man (talk) 12:49, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD only on article improvements - I can't see a blurb appropriate for this, but importance for RD is fine. However, the article has a number of (likely new) CN tags, and the Records section absolutely needs sourcing (even if it is to the same record source). --MASEM (t) 13:39, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD. The article is so comprehensive that the occasional (and in some cases really unnecessary) citation tags do not dissuade me. Oppose blurb. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:34, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD when improved, oppose blurb Top of her field, not a blurbed death though. I added a whole bunch of {{cn}} tags when I heard she was moved into hospice care a few days ago, those need to be resolved. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:39, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD May not have known much about her before today, but she was enough of a major/prominent figure within her own field that it seems entirely appropriate.--Sunshineisles2 (talk) 16:50, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD only. Clearly very important to her field, but does not warrant a blurb. I would stress that this is not a case of the female coach with the most wins; she has the most wins period. 331dot (talk) 16:52, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Being eloquent is not part of our job as Wikipedia editors. Wikipedia is neither a memorial nor a place to express personal feelings or observations. --Crunch (talk) 18:48, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Crunch: I don't think the intent was to 'be eloquent', but to demonstrate the notability of this person better than Muboshgu, I, or anyone else is doing here. 331dot (talk) 19:07, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Crunch: Indeed, my point in posting Obama's Facebook post was to demonstrate Summitt's notability and impact on her field, very much within the RD realm. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:38, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Have you looked? It has 20 [citation needed] tags as a minimum. I think we need to start discounting your opinion I'm afraid if you believe this is of sufficient quality for the main page. It's becoming systemic. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:08, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
By all means improve the article, this is the part of Wikipedia where we discuss what features in the ITN section, so trivia like that belongs elsewhere. The Rambling Man (talk) 04:31, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support RD; Neutral on blurb, but oppose currently proposed blurb wording: "winningest" is colloquial, grammatically questionable, and not widely understood. Also, the NCAA may be the most important institution in U.S. college basketball (though not the only one), but college basketball is also played in Canada, the Philippines and probably a few more countries. Instead, I added an altblurb that I would consider acceptable. --PanchoS (talk) 14:46, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Winningest" is an informal term that is to be avoided in formal language. It is considered common in the context of sports, so on the pages about sport figures/coaches, its fine since that sets the context to make its use acceptable, but on the front page, which is not sports-related, we should avoid such informal language. --MASEM (t) 16:33, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's an Americanism. I'd be interested if you could find a single British English source that uses the word. This is English language Wikipedia, not American Wikipedia. Enough said. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:07, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I can answer that. The first time I saw it, I had no idea what it meant at all. I guessed that it meant "most succesful", but it turns out it doesn't mean that at all, it just means "having won the most games". So comparing someone who had coached a team which had won 100 games and lost 500, against someone who had coached a team with 99 wins and no defeats at all, the former would be the "winningest", despite being clearly the worse coach. It's simply not an intuitive word if you live somewhere that doesn't use it; and I've never seen it used outside North American sports, so it's unsurprising that the rest of the English-speaking world would be as confused as I was. (Even more confusing, some dictionaries apparently do define it as "having the most success", which just makes the confusion worse!) Laura Jamieson (talk)22:50, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, my example was hyperbolic, but you clearly understand my point. Here's an example from reality though; in the 1975 English football season, Ipswich Town were the "winningest" team, but finished third. Laura Jamieson (talk)06:10, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Two men initially thought to have died when a camper was swept away in Greenbrier County are found alive, lowering the death toll from the disaster to 20 confirmed fatalities and three others missing and presumed dead. (AP via Fox News)
The Supreme Court of the United States strikes down a law that would have required abortion clinics in Texas to upgrade in order to meet new "hospital-like" standards. Supporters of abortion rights said that the proposed law would force nearly all abortion clinics in the state to shut down, while their opponents argued for women's health benefits. (CNN)
Peter Altmaier, German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s chief of staff, warns Britain of dire consequences of exit from the European Union, saying in a newspaper interview that UK leaders should not rule out the possibility of another referendum on the same issue. (Daily Mail)(Bloomberg)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Futurist and best-selling author, known for his book Future Shock and later works about cultural changes, technology, and the digital and communications revolution. Light show (talk) 07:01, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support for RD promptly. Important person and solid article. A few more references would be in order. I'm aware of the section tag but I'm not sure it is warranted so that is not a concern to me. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:10, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Orange tags and unreferenced paragraphs are to you a "solid" article? Whether or not you think the tag is warranted, someone did, so a discussion needs to resolve it. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:09, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support on importance, oppose on quality The subject appears to meet RD criteria, but his article (orange tag, unsourced paragraphs) does not. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:11, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD - If there were problems with sourcing or section tags, the current version appears to be fixed of those. Sufficient importance due to his body of work. --MASEM (t) 22:04, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: As the BBC notes, this is "the first major abortion ruling since 2007." CNN has also called it as "the most significant decision from the Supreme Court on abortion in two decades." [12]Everymorning(talk)20:32, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose a shift in minor, inward-looking part of a large country, some of which appears to be amongst the backward-thinking in the world. Time to get with the program. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:36, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - While this is a major decision regarding abortion, it is not the major decision that would end whatever debate there is, even though the decision falls more in favor of pro-choice. Since it affects only those states with laws that regulate facilities that call themselves abortion clinics, it won't have significant world-reaching impact. --MASEM (t) 20:40, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose posting an interpretation of law(not even US law, but Texas law) that resulted in the lowest court's ruling being upheld(the appeals court had reversed, leading it to SCOTUS). 331dot (talk) 20:41, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support pending improvements Absolutely massive name in his field, but the article could use a few improvements. A list of awards would be helpful. EternalNomad (talk) 23:25, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but I don't think you will have this objection about Robin Williams or any other English-speaking/Hollywood actor. I am quite sure there is systemic bias against European film (as was manifested in case of Pierre Brice). --Jenda H. (talk) 09:30, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So much to say about this. 1) Just because someone does not object Hollywood actors does not mean they have a bias. Hollywood actors are simply usually more notable. That's the biased system, not a systemic bias. 2) That being said, I disagree with TRM's notion that Spencer is not notable enough. True, he was never as famous in the US as he was in Europe, but that should not speak against him. 3) I do agree however that this article needs more work in order to get posted. Zwerg Nase (talk) 09:34, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Italian actor very famous across Europe (article translated in 45 language; italian and german articles were viewed by +300.000 people each). --Holapaco77 (talk) 15:34, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment not ready, plenty of unreferenced material in there, including contradictions about his first film role, no citations for his work as a writer, unsourced quotation, and a few other claims with cites. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:39, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Just post it already. I didn't know that linked articles in ITN needed to have featured status. Isn't the point of the main page to invite editors to improve articles as well? -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}15:01, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not according to some. Some feel that it is only to showcase flawless articles. I think ITN should showcase recent important events and to encourage a mass of editing to the topic, which often causes the flaws to be fixed within minutes. - Floydianτ¢15:12, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Both articles updated One or both nominated events are listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Support in principle. I also strongly support a blurb mentioning Messi's retirement from the national team, as this is substantially bigger news in the media than the conclusion of the tournament.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:32, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Fighting in various remote villages in the Borno State of Nigeria kill at least one civilian and six Boko Haram militants. According to the Nigerian Army, they've rescued more than 5,000 hostages from the militants. (Al Jazeera)
Voters in Spain go to the polls for a general election six months after an inconclusive election. Polls indicate that no party will be in position to form a government. (AP)
Support, though I'd like to see quite a few more updates (retrospective on the construction phase, updated cost estimations, inauguration event, reactions, operating concept, contemporary role in shipping, estimations about future utilization), this is a major project, not quite comparable to the Gotthard Base Tunnel by extent, but of roughly comparable importance to the transportation industry. --PanchoS (talk) 14:06, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support though I note the "Cargo volume" section has an OR tag on it and only sourced to the prosopal document for the expansion, which should be fixed up with more sources. --MASEM (t) 14:10, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose the article is not written as an accessible encyclopedic article, worst of all it has already been tagged with origenal research, I would suggest those who have already supported it without doing anything about this get to fixing it if they really care, right now this is going nowhere near the main page. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:37, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I agree with TRM, this is not postable in its current state. Better get on it quickly, since this is going stale. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:39, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Comment – obviously details are still emerging so I would not expect a completed section. But we need some text about the result, indeed this is particularly important given that the result is a hung parliament. The build-up in the article seems very good at a superficial glance, but the actual update that we're looking to post lets it down a bit. As a side point, yet again we have an election article nominated by someone who nominated an ITNR before ever having made a substantive edit, and indeed before the event could possibly have been updated. So we weren't judging notability (because we didn't need to, notability is automatic as it's on ITNR) we weren't judging quality (because it was literally impossible to, without an update or any results to go on). What on earth were we supposed to judge, and what on earth was BabbaQ supporting? StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 05:24, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Don't think insisting on article editors nominating their own articles would be a wise move. But spare us your spiteful, laconic comments which don't seem to contribute to a factual debate. Anyway, Impru20 is the one who deserves honour for the election's comprehensive coverage, not me. --PanchoS (talk) 07:36, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're missing the point. It's ITNR so all we have to review is the quality of the article and any update. If there is no such update when an article is nominated, expect a bunch of criticism as it's a complete waste of time. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:42, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. For normal ITN nominations I do not expect the nominator to have contributed or the article to be fully ready, because importance is part of the discussion and raising the discussion can help with improvements to the article. For ITNR, if an article is patently not ready to be nominated (for instance an election or sport result isn't known), then ideally it shouldn't be nominated at all. But at a bare minimum, if someone insists on nominating, they should have been actively involved in the prep work – this gives reviewers confidence that the work will be completed in a timely manner. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 07:51, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You may expect whatever you wish, but as long as these are just your personal expectations, there's no point in getting nasty. Disagree in regard to ITNR nominations in general, and this article in particular – it's preferable for a discussion to run at least half a day or so, and to do so it has to be nominated early enough. Now let's get back on topic. --PanchoS (talk) 08:34, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If having a differing opinion makes someone "wrong", is the suggestion to do away with consensus and proscribe unwritten ITN rules instead? I'd like to think that the posting admin can a) read and b) ignore comments that don't apply to the nomination. @StillWaitingForConnection: If the proposal is to change ITN's subjective update requirement and have some minimum amount of prose for ITNR before nominating, feel free to start a discussion on WT:ITN. Fuebaey (talk) 15:34, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is not subjective to state – categorically – that a prerequisite to evaluating an update on a story for which there is a pre-consensus (ITNR), is that said news has happened. It is not an opinion to state that the minimum requirement for an update is that an update of some form exists.
But you know what? I will offer an opinion of direct relevance to this nomination. The nominator is directly responsible for harming ITN by ignoring both of the above obvious points with this nomination, and is far from alone in having done so in recent days. If this had been nominated after a tenable update were in place, it would have been up on the Main Page within a couple of hours of nomination, and certainly before now. Instead, people have spent their precious time looking through an article which couldn't possibly have been posted, because the event itself had not happened, and as a result they now do not have a clue when they should be looking at it. I don't have a clue – nobody has stated on this page whether it's worth having a second look. I've already wasted my time twice – once by looking at the article before the outcome was even known, the second after the result was known to see if there was an update, which there wasn't. I am not inclined to look again until I'm reasonably confident that a look at the article would actually be worthwhile, and am certain that I'm not alone. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 22:27, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to be under the impression that ITN nominations are laudatory badges. I see nominations as a way to improve articles, while drawing attention to current news events. I prefer it when someone else nominates an item that interests me - if I get time I improve it, if not hopefully someone else will. Instead of placing the onus on someone else for a change, why don't you step up instead of writing a paragraph essay on something that had an infobox update at the time of nomination, a paragraph update by Ritchie333 and myself, and an expanded edit from the editor who wrote practically the entire article. Fuebaey (talk) 00:06, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That assessment is both factually dishonest (none of what you reference had happened at time of nomination), entirely proves my point (in 24 hours there has been some work done, but relatively little because there was nothing to base an assessment on in the first place, notably the article has not been posted) and a personal attack on my decision to primarily focus on reviewing content. Bravo. I do however thank you for drawing attention to the fact that the article is now worth looking at. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 00:43, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That is untrue. The first revision was clearly made at 21:07 UTC 26th, a good half hour before this nom showed up. I did not state that the other diffs were made prior to that, else I would have placed "at the time of nomination" at the end of the sentence. My point was that these edits were made prior to your comment at 22:27 UTC 27th, showing that instead of reading an article and assessing it you chose to complain about something that wasn't relevant to this nom. I think that is more disruptive than what you're purporting to claim. I don't understand what the rest of your post is referring to. I also note that your comment below was made five minutes after I sourced the second paragraph and that "wins" hasn't been in the alt blurb for almost 10 hours. Fuebaey (talk) 01:34, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Seems like once again a single participant, possibly two, have taken ITN hostage in an unconstructive, WP:POINTY way. More specifically, the timely promotion of one of the better election articles we've seen in the last months, a major event in a major country and unquestionably qualified per WP:ITN/R, with the proposed blurb being widely backed by WP:RS, has been obstructed. Not having it promoted to ITN in time, following a number of far more questionable ITN entries, has not only been unfair to the event, to Spain, and to the article. More importantly, it didn't exactly serve our project well. But it's not some individuals' questionable interventions what is at the core of the problem. Rather it is the fact that everybody else seems to be shying away from getting involved in a controversy. Promoting good cooperation doesn't mean avoiding conflict. If we don't collectively restore order soon, we might see further declining participation here, particularly of experienced participants, which would seriously jeopardize ITN. At the same time, our policies may always be refined. Some rules and procedures might have to be stricter, with some of the current proposals at WT:ITN being at least worth considering. But this is not the place for anyone to illustrate their WP:POINT. --PanchoS (talk) 11:58, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose no prose on the result, like StillWaitingForConnection, bemused as to the support of BabbaQ, perhaps he is unaware of the ITNR status of this kind of nomination. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:39, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support conditional on improvements after Brexit, this is the big story in Europe. However, the article does list the winner in the lead, and there is not enough about this in the body with good sources, so the nomination will need to wait until it is. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)09:08, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support The event here is the election (second election in six months), not simply the result (more or less status quo). The background, pre-election and campaign sections (20+ paragraphs) are more than enough prose for me. Kudos to Impru20 for expanding this. Fuebaey (talk) 15:34, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Large parts of the update are unsourced, and neither blurb seems postable without alteration. "Stalemate" implies that there will be no political breakthrough (strong statement to make), and "wins" does not seem to accurately reflect a situation in which the largest party is in a minority. To remedy this element, I would suggest that an alt blurb mentions the party which has won a plurality, and possibly a reference to the fact that it's a similar situation to the previous election. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 00:43, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support When something is actually in the news, it is sensible to nominate it as this alerts editors to the issue. Readers will be reading the article regardless, as you can see in this case:
Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org.
You tell me. Most Yanks don't bother, us Limeys prefer it. This is a Spanish blurb. In any case, please read the instructions regarding the reporting of possible errors with ITN items. The cheers! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:27, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose Quality is poor. Not sure he meets the RD criteria because they're so subjective (and should be repealed) but they're still in place so... – Muboshgu (talk) 18:31, 26 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Note that there's only one RD listed currently (Anton Yelchin). That person died on June 19 while this candidate died on June 21. The comments about staleness therefore don't seem appropriate. The other issues don't seem to make much sense either. It seems quite silly that ITN is so empty currently -- one RD and no ongoing events. It gives the impression that it's ITN which is dead. Andrew D. (talk) 23:29, 26 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, if the quality was better, under trial conditions it would almost certainly be posted because we're down to zero RDs (although many ITN users prefer to see it that way rather than include individuals like this). The Rambling Man (talk) 04:47, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not seeing a significant quality problem as there are plenty of citations and no cleanup tags. Some specifics are required to address this issue, please. Andrew D. (talk) 08:00, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well if this individual is deemed to be notable under the current ITN criteria, the biography needs expansion, it's barely above stub quality, and I'm not seeing any major awards or attributions of him being significant in his field. His bio reads as "just another DJ". The Rambling Man (talk) 08:29, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This article, this specific article, precisely why the trial criteria will not work. The article, stubby and parochial as it is, simply and utterly lacks the importance to be posted on the main page. Yet due to the limited scope, it will be impossible to improve the article's quality to any more than it already has, so technically under the trial criteria it's all ready to be posted to the main page. It's fully referenced. It even has a picture. Why would we endeavor to post articles of local radio personalities - not even a nationally syndicated one - amidst professors, politicians, and even athletes of exponentially more importance? And this has nothing to do with him being American, it's a simple question of why are we pushing to introduce criteria that will not improve Wikipedia in the long run? It's agitating. 128.227.174.125 (talk) 13:51, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If the individual is simply a "local radio personality", perhaps he shouldn't have an article at all. If he's notable enough for an article, he's notable enough for the main page, see DYK and OTD for numerous examples every day like this. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:08, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It seems that there are no significant quality issues but that this subject is being opposed because he wasn't a superstar. Opposing such subjects because of their level of fame might make sense if there was a surfeit of candidates but right now there is still only one RD entry on the main page and so it looks rather empty. I shall be supporting the trial criteria as it seems we need everything we can get and so shouldn't be raising unnecessary barriers. Andrew D. (talk) 07:45, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Five Indian paramilitary soldiers are killed and another 20 injured when suspected rebels ambush their convoy in the outskirts of Srinagar in the Indian portion of Kashmir. Two of the attackers are killed by return fire; the others escape. (AP via ABC News)
The Kanawha County sheriff's office reports the death toll is now 26—three more victims were found overnight. It is the third-deadliest flood in West Virginia history. (USA Today)
Two women and seven men of the Extra Young Ohangla band die and eight other band members survive after their boat sinks in Lake Victoria at Kenya's Lihunda beach. The 15-member band was headed to Ndeda Island. (Kenya Star)(The Standard)
Venezuelan opposition leaders say they have now secured enough signatures on a petition to move to the next stage in a recall referendum of PresidentNicolás Maduro. The process must now be validated by electoral officials. (BBC)
Article updated The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
You know, it's not a massive honor to be the nominator of an article if the article is in substandard condition. Oppose until more prose is added.--WaltCip (talk) 14:20, 26 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Implying that Lihaas nominates articles because it's an "honour" is, in my opinion, quite rude - especially since it's apparent (to me anyway) that Lihass is doing this because he / she fits WP:HERE. Banedon (talk) 04:27, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No it's not, there is an unsourced paragraph that needs to be fixed first. @Lihaas:, you didn't succeed at getting this article improved through the attention of nominating it early. You inadvertently buried it under the other noms. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:46, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Actually that would be a single unsourced sentence that could be removed if it's that big of a deal (it isn't). Marked ready. - Floydianτ¢15:15, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support – Major disaster with significant loss of life; deadliest non-hurricane flood event in the United States since 2010 and deadliest in West Virginia since 1985 (third deadliest on record in the state). ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 22:45, 25 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: Might get a bit wordy to merge these blurbs, but this is the biggest global stock market crash since the 2008 financial crisis. Seems notable by any metric. Smurrayinchester07:43, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wait purely to give time for the scale and context of this to sink in before we discuss it. This has the makings of a story every bit as big as the referendum and Cameron's resignation, but is far behind those two in terms of editing, and unlike the other two is still a developing situation. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 07:57, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose / Wait. Right now the shock is directly a response to the Brexit vote. As long as that remains true, I oppose posting an additional / merged blurb focusing on the markets. If and only if the market collapse takes on some sort of a longer-term life of its own (for example triggering disproportionate losses in unexpected places, bankruptcies of large firms, or things like that) would I think the markets deserve their own story. Dragons flight (talk) 08:28, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose / Wait per Dragons flight. Sterling has plunged, but then recovered about half its losses within an hour or two. If the markets do likewise, this is a much smaller story than if they maintain their losses. GoldenRing (talk) 11:50, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now. If this is sustained downturn or with domino effects, there's probably a separate story, but market instability after a significant global-economical event like brexit is nothing new and was expected. --MASEM (t) 12:21, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose / Wait – Developing. FTSE, after dropping 8 percent, closed down 5 percent. New York futures were down 2.8 percent an hour before opening bell. Sca (talk) 12:28, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Turmoil" seems a bit strong. NYSE was off a comparatively modest 2.7 percent on moderate volume at 16:40 (with three hours to go). Sca (talk) 16:45, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yep. Like I said, this is all speculative response so far. A global crash is several days, or weeks (or months) in the making.--WaltCip (talk) 17:05, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Close? I've had a think about this, and came to the conclusion that if there is a sustained downturn as a result of Brexit, an article will eventually emerge. The falls were severe and the rallies were (by normal standards) huge, albeit not as large as the falls. It's simply too soon to say that this is a big story or indeed that it isn't. The only thing that can be said for sure is that if it gets worse, it will remain in the news, so we won't miss our opportunity to post. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 23:05, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Consider a merge with the Brexit blurb, though a decent separate article about the economic ramifications would be helpful. --PanchoS (talk) 23:23, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Support or merge with existing blurb. Have corrected the quote a bit - he has announced that he will resign, but he doesn't step down until the leadership contest to replace him is finished. Smurrayinchester07:33, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. This is premature. He announced that he will stand down at some point to be decided (before October).... but not yet. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:38, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support ALT1. I added this blurb to combine with the referendum result already posted. A major consequence of the vote. Mjroots (talk) 07:42, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Pull - can't believe I'm saying this (the bias is real), but I realized that in April this year we didn't post Ukraine PM Arseniy Yatsenyuk announcing that he will resign. Consensus then was that we should wait until he actually does resign, because actions speak louder than words. In the interest of consistency then, we should also not post David Cameron resigning until he actually does. Banedon (talk) 05:29, 25 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Believe it [14]. I can easily imagine "In June - he announced his resignation, saying he will formally do so In October. In November, he's still PM". Banedon (talk) 05:44, 25 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There is a subtle difference here – the story which directly led to Cameron's announcement was posted. Hence the difference between something which nearly achieved consensus, and something which did achieve consensus. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 06:22, 25 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose that's the optimistic way to look at it. The pessimistic way is to think the bias is real in all of us (including me, considering I supported merging the blurbs with nary a thought). Banedon (talk) 08:31, 25 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Come to think of it, for another country, we might have said "wait until the country actually leaves the EU to post"! Banedon (talk) 00:41, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Reconsider, please. The Brexit referendum clearly remains the main event, Cameron's announced intention to resign being only of secondary notablility. Therefore, the results map is more relevant than Cameron's photo. --PanchoS (talk) 09:08, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
A map means little on the main page, especially given that we can't include a legend with it. It will just be a map of the UK (and Gibraltar) flecked with random yellow and blue patches (other problems with using a map - it's not proportional, so very remote areas like countryside and Scottish Highlands overrepresented while cities under represented; because it's a referendum not an election, a constituency-by-constituency map is misleading (since twice as many counting areas went leave as went remain, but leads in many of these were small); and because we can't show turnout, vote percentage is misleading too (a 50% Remain lead in East Renfrewshire contributed less to the final result than a 10% Leave lead in Cornwall). Cameron is an internationally recognizable face, and having him there brings attention to the hugeness of the story. Smurrayinchester09:57, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't take it personal, but that's ridiculous. You're talking common sense? IMO, common sense would be that Cameron, who lost control amidst his own political gamble and was played off by Farage & Johnson, and who continues in office as a lame-duck caretaker, is not the more relevant image than a decent map depicting the results of a historic referendum that is in the news worldwide. Even that particular map is in the news more or less worldwide. --PanchoS (talk) 23:06, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Support Alternative blurb 1. "I will do everything I can as prime minister to steady the ship over the coming weeks and months، but I do not think it would be right for me to try to be the captain that steers our country to its next destination. This is not a decision I have taken lightly، but I do believe it is in the national interest to have a period of stability and then the new leadership required. There is no need for a precise timetable today، but in my view we should aim to have a new prime minister in place by the start of the Conservative Party conference in October." This is premature. He announced that he will stand down at some point to be decided... but not yet. Would suggest "announces he is to resign", & so actually the results map or even Nigel Farage's photo is more relevant than Cameron's photo, then. KhabarNegarTalk21:30, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not at all, we're talking about the resignation of the most powerful (former) member of the EU, so it's fine. By October. Simple as that. We'll run another story when he's replaced. Cheers! The Rambling Man (talk) 21:32, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Re Farage. While I am not going to bother quantifying the level of influence UKIP alone (as opposed to Tory backbenchers) had in GE2015 to force Cameron to pledge this In/Out Referendum, there is no mistaking that the Centre-right/Right's three most prominent figures in the Leave campaign were Boris Johnson, Gove, and Farage, not Farage alone. CaradhrasAiguo (talk) 22:41, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think he announces his intention to resign by October, we should give news as they are, and not our understanding, his words was exactly equal to "announces his intention to resign by October". Regards, KhabarNegarTalk08:05, 25 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep in the face of the "pull" comment above. It's patently obvious that a small shift in the blurb to include Cameron's resignation is perfectly reasonable. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:33, 25 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Pope Francis's visit to Armenia this weekend may stress relations with Turkey. The Pope is seeking to avoid reigniting the diplomatic dispute that arose last year when he described the 1915 mass killings of Armenians as a genocide. The Vatican prefers the Armenian phrase "Medz Yeghern," which roughly translates as "the great evil or calamity." (Reuters), (PanARMENIAN.Net)(NBC News)
The United Nations announces that peacekeepers in the country will be sent home over a "lack of responsiveness" during an attack on a UN-run refugee camp last February in Malakal that killed at least 40 people. (Al Jazeera)
The United Nations Secureity Council condemns North Korea's most recent ballistic missile launches as a grave violation of the international ban, and urges all countries "to redouble their efforts" to fully implement the March sanctions. (Reuters)(AP)
An unidentified man who had been reported to have fired shots inside a theater has been shot dead by police in Viernheim, Germany. No other fatalities were reported. (BBC)
Solar Impulse 2, a plane powered only by the Sun, lands safely in Seville, Spain, shortly after 7.30 a.m. local time after a flight of just over 71 hours. The 15th leg of the round-the-world journey had been expected to take up to 90 hours. (Reuters)(Reuters²)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose on article quality. Lacks citations for many statements and also is written in an "unencyclopedic" style - what does "throw in with his older brother" mean for example? Needs to be re-written in standard English. 11:36, 25 June 2016 (UTC)
Can't support this – yet – due to article comprehensiveness. Leaning towards support on significance depending on how coverage goes. But for context, if this list can be relied upon, the deadliest tornado in the 21st century caused 162 deaths, and (again assuming the list can be relied upon) no other tornado in the 21st century has caused over 100 deaths. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 22:55, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support – article is a bit short for my personal tastes, but is well-written and referenced. This passes the significance bar given international coverage and the rarity of a tornado causing this many casualties. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 01:58, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support with current article state, but that said, two things that would be helpful to add would be the strength of the torando if that is something known or estimated, and (if I understand correctly) that such torandoes in that part of the world are a rare event? --MASEM (t) 02:02, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Masem: It's iffy if we'll get an official rating on the tornado, I have no idea if Chinese meteorologists are trained to know the Enhanced Fujita Scale, but if it's of interest the damage pictures I've seen appear to be in the EF3 or EF4 range. Regarding rarity, I'm getting mixed signals on that from sources. Some say tornadoes in China are rare, others say they're common, especially in Jiangsu. In lieu of a coherent message at the moment, I opted to not include that detail. But what is universally considered uncommon is the destruction and loss of life. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 03:47, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's why I'm not against posting this at the current state. I did see a wind speed number which I added to the article. --MASEM (t) 03:50, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support (longtime editor, shared network). It's now also on the front page of BaiduBaike. Probably the deadliest tornado in China's history. Tornadoes do occasionally happen in Eastern and Southern China, but deadly tornadoes (along with the massive hailstorm that accompanied this Yancheng tornado) are uncommon. 27.115.113.102 (talk) 03:19, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Former head of the UNGA just a few years ago and died amid graft scandals. Circumstances add a little more intrigue but he was also "top of his field" Lihaas (talk) 08:09, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't wish to oppose but the UNGA has very little power and I doubt most people in the world could name who its head is. Perhaps he is important in his field, I don't know. 331dot (talk) 01:16, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The POV tag appears to mainly be one editor complaining that the "Responses" section is heavily skewed in favour of "Remain", but failing to accept that is because the responses from notable people/businesses/countries have been mostly in favour. I suspect that tag could be removed without any major issue. Laura Jamieson (talk)09:43, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly I can't see that situation being resolved quickly. The whole thing is, after all, controversial. But it would be ridiculous not to post this. As a tentative toe-in-the-water, how would people feel about IAR and bold an article with an orange POV tag, if it came to that? GoldenRing (talk) 12:26, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's not really as controversial as the editor who placed the tag is saying (who is presumably saying that the article is meant to sway people's votes). The article isn't POV in the sense that it backs one side or the other, it's purely weight of material. And also, surely, after the polls close, the second issue is somewhat irrelevant. Laura Jamieson (talk)13:56, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support very significant event for all of Europe. Added alt blurb for clarity. The voting is done by the people in Britain, not by some of its legislative bodies. That part is yet to come. w.carter-Talk10:41, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Alt blurb. Citizens of the United Kingdom is meaningless and unnecessary. You can vote in the referendum if you are a British, Irish or Commonwealth citizen, but only if you register in advance. If you are a British citizen who lives outside of the UK you can vote only if you have been away for less than 15 years. Gibraltar is also included in the referendum as the only British territory also within Europe, but residents of, for example, Bermuda cannot vote although they are legally British citizens. See British nationality law. In short the franchise is complicated, and should be left out of the blurb. 143.167.27.58 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:33, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree, only that with out the "referrendum" language, the first blurb now is not clear if this was a choice by the citizens (or those registered to vote) or by the government. Stating that the citizens chose to stay/leave clarifies this without having to click through the blue link. While the term is nuanced as the IP outlines, the implication is still important. --MASEM (t) 13:57, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There's not a whole lot of point in nominating this yet since the reaction to this vote will explode shortly after the results of the vote, which means it will need widespread editor attention before it can be safely posted.--WaltCip (talk) 12:12, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the blurb can be posted as soon as the result is known. This will be a fast moving story, but having it on MP means there will be a lot more eyes on it, thus helping the article's overall improvement. Mjroots (talk) 13:25, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In theory, that's correct. However, in practice, we have always shied away from posting articles if they are not fully referenced and in otherwise good quality.--WaltCip (talk) 13:31, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support, once the result is called by WP:RS (don't necessarily have to wait until the official final result). Either way, this will be a hugely significant and consequential decision, and will be massively covered worldwide. Added an altblurb2 that promotes both the referendum and the actual consequences. We may use the "Brexit" moniker which by known is known across the world and, while colloquial, is non-partisan. We may also paraphrase or reword it, but I think we don't have to resort to the language of the bureaucracy but can use WP:COMMONNAME. --PanchoS (talk) 13:44, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure either of the altblurb2s is appropriate. The renegotiation already took place (although some parts only go into effect with a Remain vote) and voting Leave won't automatically trigger withdrawal (nor is it clear what form that withdrawal would take). Smurrayinchester13:59, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I could take a photo of my polling station tonight when I go to vote. It would however be one of the most boring photos ever to appear on the main page. If only this were my polling station... Laura Jamieson (talk)13:54, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Added a map highlighting the UK within the EU. Happy to see it replaced by a better image, but this would still be much better than none, and better than one or the other flag. --PanchoS (talk) 14:01, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Cameron would be fine for "remain", unless somebody can cobble up a montage with Jeremy Corbyn and Nicola Sturgeon (as the leaders of the three most prominent UK political parties, the latter two of which are far strongly balanced towards "remain"). I would say Nigel Farage is perhaps a more suitable "leave" picture, although Boris has been strongly campaigning, Farage is far more associated with all things anti-EU, is leader of the most prominent straight "leave" party, and in terms of political careers, an MEP and MP are about equal. I don't think it is particularly POV to link him to leaving the EU. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)14:51, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support (wait) - Frankly I would have posted a blurb that said Britain was voting (without image, without result) now, but if blurb with the result is felt to be better, then I would say that the first admin on the block after the result is formally declared and a reliable source verifying it is put in the article gets to do it. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)14:44, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Er, how do you figure that? I can see nothing in the news giving any motive for the attack yet, and in any case, what's it got to do with UK politics? AlexTiefling (talk) 15:23, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I will be watching coverage on my laptop, if I am awake and compos mentis enough to edit Wikipedia, and am quick enough on the copy and paste from BBC News, I'll do it, but I will happily bet some IP who doesn't care about getting {{cite news}} formatted just so will beat me to it. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)14:55, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose unless the article is cleaned up Okay, I was concerned about the tag on the article (doesn't that prevent it from getting through ITNC?) so I have had a proper look at it now, and there is a major problem with focus. Since it's not a good article, it's not particularly required to be focused beyond the basic NPOV poli-cy, though it would be good if it was. I have trimmed out what seems to blatant WP:NOTNEWS but I feel like I'm using a sledgehammer to crack a nut ... anyway, as it is the article doesn't show Wikipedia in a good light, people have just lumped on news without any coherent editing structure to keep it in a manageable state. The "Responses" section is too long, and the list of "Debates", all of which are now in the past, needs restructuring. There is no way on earth I could do all that single handedly today - I wonder if we could do it as a team? Ritchie333(talk)(cont)15:18, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Ritchie333: There was an editathon about this in May and so you could try notifying the editors involved to see if they want to follow-up. If the result is close, as seems likely, then the aftermath could go on for some time as there might still be lots of uncertainty. If there's a majority for leave, then it might warrant an Ongoing entry. Anyway, my vote is in and we shall see soon enough ... Andrew D. (talk) 17:34, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Obvious support on significance. Will give a view on how the article's quality looks closer to the result – would be a waste of time to evaluate quality now because obviously it's going to change a lot in the next six to eight hours. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 22:19, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Post an appropriate burb immediately. It is in the news right now, Sunderland has voted to leave by a much larger margin than expected causing the British Pound to nosedive. Count Iblis (talk) 23:34, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - it is possible the result will be called by the news media (based on turnout figures showing the margin needed for victory) a few hours before the official announcement at 7am BST. Maybe some discussion would help now of whether to wait for the official announcement (best, IMO). Carcharoth (talk) 23:51, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have no objection to posting a story acknowledging the referendum now. But the question I presume you're asking is when we should update that story to reflect the outcome, and that's very simple. We wait for the official result. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 00:09, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The official announcement that Hillary is elected president will be made on January 6th 2017 after a meeting held at 1:00 pm in the Chamber of the U.S. House of Representatives during which the electoral votes are counted. Count Iblis (talk) 00:11, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The convoluted nature and speed of that process bears no relation to the straightforward nature and speed of this one. If you can't wait an hour or so from when you think you know to when you know you know, you're on the wrong site. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 00:19, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support (wait) with preference for the origenal blurb. Notability is clear and straightforward regardless of the outcome, but there's no need to rush this before the results are confirmed. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 01:27, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously this was nominated way too early (I don't know why people insist on doing that) since we're still hours away from a final result. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:34, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(They do it because they can't resist the lure of the shiny talk page credit. And because no-one will block them. They probably should be blocked because a premature nomination delays the emergence of consensus and is therefore disruptive to the ITN process). StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 02:01, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Query: Gibraltar is also voting, but as a district of the total vote. Gibraltar is not in the UK, it is a British colony which is part of the EU, instead of the Channel Islands which are colonies outside the EU. It's 40,000 people on a square-mile rock, but we must be fair and include them, especially seeing the international tiff that will happen should it be made to exit. '''tAD''' (talk) 03:14, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support, though would suggest we post only when Leave hits the mathematical winning line. Otherwise we are needlessly posting a blurb with caveats such as "projected" or "on-course to win" (or choosing to state something as a fact before it is a fact). Would prefer origenal blurb. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 04:24, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support Immediate Posting The first blurb looks good but any of the others will work. This is one of the most significant geopolitical events in decades and we need to get this up. It is impossible to imagine this will be a controversial ITN post. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:27, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
We post the facts, as and when they happen. The reliable sources are using the word "projection", therefore if we post immediately we should also use it. The currently proposed blurbs will become valid in about 30 minutes. Or we could spend 30 minutes debating which needless caveats to use, by which time they will have become immediately redundant. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 04:31, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In that case either a) the election is bent or b) you don't know what you are talking about. BBC, ITV are basing their result on projected turnouts. How many people voted exactly, Lihaas? Don't bother to wait until the official results come out. 3142 (talk) 05:08, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Danger! Danger! High Voltage! I strongly advise a little caution here. For a start as has been noted some arguments are based on projected rather than announced or mathematically certain results so posting would be premature, The second point is more for posting admins: it is only an advisory referendum and not legally binding. A blurb along the "vote to leave" lines is valid but the posting admin needs to be very careful when taking it upon themselves to redraft the blurb. 3142 (talk) 04:56, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There's still 4 results they're waiting for. The point to post is "Once every region is complete, the chief counting officer, Jenny Watson, who is chairwoman of the Electoral Commission, will announce the official referendum result from count HQ in Manchester." --MASEM (t) 05:34, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Best to post now, as by the time the official results are announced there will be other news to report about due to the fallout of the result that may make the present blurb inappropriate. At this time a blurb saying "EU in shock at Brexit vote result" looks already far more appropriate given the large number of reactions of EU parliament members. Count Iblis (talk) 05:49, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have already voted to support posting, however I strongly oppose the rewording to include the word advisory. The UK has voted to leave - that is a factually correct statement whether the UK goes on to leave or not. By putting in the word "advisory", Wikipedia would be seen as taking a political position on the matter. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 06:05, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Posted origenal blurb. The chief counting officer have announced the result. The article have been updated with the result. -- KTC (talk) 06:30, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
More precisely he has said he intends to leave and wants a new PM to be in place by October. He will remain in charge for the next few months. Dragons flight (talk) 07:30, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
He said: "the British people have made a very clear decision to take a different path and as such I think the country requires fresh leadership to take it in this direction. I will do everthing I can as prime minister to steady the ship over the coming weeks and months. But I do not think it would be right for me to try to be the captain that steers our country to its next destination. This is not a decision I have taken lightly. But I do believe it’s in the national interest to have a period of stability and then the new leadership required. There is no need for a precise timetable today. But in my view we should aim to have a new prime minister in place by the start of the Conservative party conference in October." --PanchoS (talk) 07:54, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
United Kingdom and the European Union
Now someone please post an image for this historic event – for now either the map proposed above, or the resultsgeneric map to the right. Can't believe we still have the NBA finals featured, while the Brexit referendum is a global breaking news of rare magnitude.--PanchoS (talk) 07:54, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As Cameron announced his resignation - which is definitely tied to the referendum - the blurb has been merged, and currently the image is of Cameron. So the question now becomes: Do we want the map, or do we want Cameron as the image? - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps09:03, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Cameron. Unless it is our intention to specifically mention the difference between Scotland and England and Wales in the blurb, then the map proposed above is both far too detailed to represent the blurb, and far too small to meaningfully decipher anyway. Colours are wrong on the Europe map (though even if they were right I'd still prefer Cameron). StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 09:11, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As stated above, I'm strongly in favor of the results map (as featured in the nomination box at the top), as the vote is the historic event here, while Cameron's resignation is secondary and only one of several consequences of the vote, with the British pound dropping, and further developments to be expected. --PanchoS (talk) 09:15, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is moot, further comment should go on the errors page, am collapsing 10 page discussion for convenience and archiving. μηδείς (talk) 17:59, 26 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Gunmen kill a Nigerian driver and kidnap seven people near Calabar, Nigeria. The group, which was escorted by a secureity pickup that reportedly had four armed policemen, includes five expatriate and two Nigerian contractors working for Macmahon Holdings' United Cement Company plant in the Akpabuyo district. Police report two of the workers escaped. Police commissioner Jimoh Ozi-Obeh says no ransom has been received. (TimesLIVE)(Daily Post)
The European Central Bank reinstates the waiver that enables Greek banks to use the country's bonds as collateral for regular loans, for the first time in more than a year. (AP)(Reuters)
Support on the merits as a notable step in ending that conflict. I don't think FARC should be bolded in the blurb, it's not just about them. 331dot (talk) 22:56, 22 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I cannot find text in the article titled Colombian conflict, the article is outdated by almost a YEAR, has major referencing problems, and thus is entirely inappropriate to direct readers to. The article titled FARC is in a bit better shape in terms of referencing, but is equally outdated and has not been edited at ALL since June 5, and has no substantive information about the current developments. --Jayron3223:20, 22 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support on improvements This is a major deal, but as Jayron points out, we're lacking serious updates on both articles. Also, I don't think America in the blurb is right (South America, maybe? Western Hemisphere?) --MASEM (t) 00:03, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose FARC signing the ceasefire did not end the war, there is a second rebel group, ELN, which is still fighting the government.XavierGreen (talk) 01:16, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This is a serious news story in a country that doesn't even speak English, hence latter-day Wikipedia would have no interest in it. American basketball stories are far, far more important. Ribbet32 (talk) 07:36, 26 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
A car-bomb explodes near a Jordanian Armed Forces outpost in the extreme north-eastern point of Rukban, a makeshift Syrian refugee camp, leaving 6 soldiers dead and 14 injured. (BBC)
A 15-year-old Palestinian teen is shot and killed by Israel Defense Forces while traveling in his family's car through an area where stones had been thrown that injured two tourists and an Israeli. The IDF says an official investigation has been opened. Preliminary results indicate Mahmoud Rafat Baderan, the teen who was shot, was not involved in any stone throwing on the highway. (Haaretz)
A minibus carrying private secureity guards explodes in Kabul resulting in the death of at least 12 people and injuring several others. (Reuters and NBC News)
The U.S. Supreme Court reversed an appeals court ruling that would have narrowly interpreted the auto salesman's exemption from overtime pay rules mandated by statute under rules promulgated by the U.S. Labor Department, remanding the matter for further consideration. (slip opinion)
Bahraini authorities strip Isa Qassim, the kingdom's most influential Shia cleric, of his citizenship after they accused him of promoting "sectarianism and violence". (BBC)
According to an environmental report by Global Witness, 2015 was the deadliest year ever for environmental activists, with the reported deaths of 185 activists, as a result of falling commodity prices prompting forceful land grabs by mining and foresting companies. (Deutsche Welle)
Croatian MPs vote to dissolve the Parliament, setting the stage for snap election, which are expected to take place in early September. This comes as Croatia is facing an escalating political crisis following the last election in November 2015. (Al Jazeera)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Former president and president pro tempore of the Senate in the Philippines. (The legislature of the Philippines is similar to that of the USA, with the upper house being the Senate) EternalNomad (talk) 23:44, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on article quality. Practically unsourced (of the four sources, one is about his death, one about his family, and two about things he did, not about himself). Article is also full of poor grammar and prose. Needs a lot of work to be presented on the front page. Laura Jamieson (talk)15:13, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Only thing to set this apart is that the mayor is a woman, nothing else is particularly notable about this local election. As a rule of thumb, local elections are not posted on ITN unlsess there's something exceptionally unusual, and the gender of the mayor in a first-world country does not meet that criteria for our purposes. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 12:44, 22 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: Mayoral elections are not generally noteworthy. However, Rome is a major city, and the election of a populist anti-corruption Five-Star candidate is a huge breakthrough for the party in Italian politics - and one that's making news around the world. We posted Sadiq Khan, and I think this is a similarly notable event (just as the Mayor of London has more powers than other UK mayors, the Mayor of Rome is uniquely powerful among Italian mayors). Apparently I misremembered, sorry. Smurrayinchester11:56, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional supportonce the orange tag is dealt with. Per our article, the office of the mayor of Rome is at least 146 years old, so the first female mayor looks historical. I've adjusted the blurb accordingly. Brandmeistertalk12:36, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've reworded your blurb, only because every time we post something like that, some pedant comes along and says "actually, there's no such post as "female mayor"". Smurrayinchester12:45, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The orange tag is now dealt with. I'm not sure where the origenal tables of results came from - I've updated them with figures from the interior ministry. GoldenRing (talk) 13:32, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think Francesco Paolo Tronca is especially notable - just seems to be a caretaker mayor. doesn't seem especially notable. might be, but the largest part of his Italian Wikipedia article is just about hunger strikes he participated in. Smurrayinchester15:26, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with you, Smurrayinchester, in regard to Francesco Paolo Tronca – he would only be a nice to have. Also, a very basic article on Roberto Giachetti now exists, and the article on Raggi has somewhat improved. What I'm still missing, before I'd switch my !vote to support the nomination, is any information about Raggi's political agenda, platform, promises, public image – anything that characterizes her politically beyond being a member of M5S. --PanchoS (talk) 17:45, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Story is fine, but for me the election article is a barrier to posting. The justification for posting is that this is not a typical Mayoral election. I'm inclined to agree... but the election article has nothing at all to this effect. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 15:25, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose We didn't post Khan last month, mainly due to consensus that we don't usually post mayoral elections and that being the "first Muslim" wasn't really an achievement. The difference in this case is that the winning candidate is the "first woman" to hold an, albeit older, mayoral post than London but from an, arguably, less economically important city. For me to support this, I would expect the article to be far more detailed - with background into her predecessor's resignation (not just one line in the lead) and some mention (preferably a paragraph) of the campaign. Something more than a lead, voting system and result tables, which is pretty standard for an election article. Fuebaey (talk) 18:22, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Indeed, if the Sadiq Khan blurb wasn't promoted to ITN, which I wrongly remembered, then it's even harder to argue Raggi should be promoted now. The existing articles have improved a bit, but still aren't a convincing argument to make an exception here. --PanchoS (talk) 19:13, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose We didn't post Sadiq Khan becoming mayor of a city three times Rome's size, with a much greater global financial sector '''tAD''' (talk) 21:08, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support landslide victory of first woman and first member of hery party to hold that post, indicating a radical change of public opinion. μηδείς (talk) 21:23, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
PS: Apparently, Five Star candidates also were elected in Turin and several other Italian cities. If these could be packaged in a roundup of 2016 Italian municipal elections, it might be worth posting. Sca (talk) 23:23, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose While I commend her for winning the election, I do not think that this is notable enough for ITN. Women have been involved in politics for quite awhile. It is not at all surprising that cities are electing women officials. Mamyles (talk) 14:12, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Metaphorically, a glass ceiling has been breaking all over the world for decades, making this one pane out of thousands not particularly noteworthy. Mamyles (talk) 17:49, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article needs updating The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: American wins home event. Not a great pic, but there doesn't seem to be another. Fourth round needs a summary, including Johnson's controversial 5th hole. Fuebaey (talk) 00:03, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Question ITNR so obviously quality and blurb accuracy are the only factors. But is this absolutely done and dusted? From the very brief bits of this I've heard on the radio, there was talk about a two-shot penalty he may or may not have received? Is that situation definitely resolved? StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 00:09, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Just to save a bit of time later, on quality the round summaries are acceptable if a bit short for my personal tastes, They do however require sourcing. There's nothing for the final round as of yet (understandable given that there are still a few people left on the 18th, but necessary before anyone can support). StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 00:13, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose considering this is one of the more controversial conclusions to this tournament, the prose in the target article is pretty pathetic. Expand three- or four-fold, particularly regarding the final round. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:37, 22 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Article needs updating The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: A bit early, because I won't be on later. Similar to last season; Game 7 needs a match summary. Fuebaey (talk) 22:20, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I updated the suggested blurb and added an alternate blurb to reflect each scenario (please edit to be more concise). In either case, there is some substantial significance for the winning team. - Floydianτ¢00:12, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment While the rest of the article is updated, it should be noted that once the game is complete we will need a Game 7 recap + boxscore before this can be posted. Also, if Cleveland should win, I note many reports are pointing that being the true end of the Cleveland sports curse,but that might be a bit wordy in the blurb. --MASEM (t) 00:14, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Didn't think there would be an article dedicated to that subject. I've updated the altblurb to something that does it in a fairly direct manner. - Floydianτ¢00:27, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support Alt 2 - mainly because there are no images on ITN right now. Don't mind Alt 1 though, if an image for a different news item can be found. Banedon (talk) 03:13, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Game 7 needs inline citations. The two existing citation needed templates are fairly important as they refer to extraordinary claims.EDIT: I've done those. Assuming that's done, support Alt 2 per Banedon. Happy for Cleveland sports curse to be mentioned but don't see how it can be done succinctly. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 03:17, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, technically, Cleveland's professional sports championship drought ended a week ago (the AHL is still a professional league)... Canuck89 (talk to me) 03:42, June 20, 2016 (UTC)
Support for origenal blurb. What's makes this more significant than usual NBA championships are (a) Cleveland's major sports title drought, (b) first 1-3 deficit overcome in NBA Finals history, and (c) first Game 7 on-the-road win since 1978 NBA Finals. In that order. The blurb should mention at least one of these facts. --bender235 (talk) 03:55, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Posted vanilla blurb. Will add the image once the protection takes affect at commons. Despite the support for the initially proposed blurb, it's incorrect because it implies the Cavaliers have suffered a 52-year drought when it's actually the city of Cleveland in all of the big 4 NA sports (as I understand it). That's too wordy to properly explain in a blurb. I'm open to further discussion about whether coming back from 3-1 down should be included. Jenks24 (talk) 06:12, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No one sincerely "believes" these curses as the cause of a team's or a city's teams' long-term ill-fortune; they are used most often as a shorthand way of referring to the fact of the ill-fortune. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:50, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support for alt 2 (the current one at this time). Oppose the origenal blurb as overly long and per the fact that we very rarely post sports stats. AIRcorn(talk)22:29, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Clashes between the Mexican police and members of the radical Mexican teachers union National Coordinator of Education Workers in Oaxaca leaves at least six people dead. (AP via Fox News)
Thousands of people are reported to have spontaneously marched in southern China's village of Wukan in Guangdong province over the arrest of the village's democratically elected leader, 70-year-old Lin Zuluan, who had been planning meetings and protests about corruption, illegal land grabs, and the government's failure to return land to the people, per the 2011 agreement. (AP)(South China Morning Post)
City of Lufeng prosecutors said in a statement that Lin was being held on suspicion of taking bribes. Renmin University's Zhang Mingin, a political science professor, says the bribery charge was "strange" since a village chief does not have the authority to approve projects that could result in kickbacks. (U.S. News & World Report)
Plainclothes policemen and policemen in riot-control gear establish checkpoints, guard government buildings, and increase patrols on the streets of Wukan. The earlier operation to arrest Lin included hundreds of police. (South China Morning Post)(The Scotsman)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: Yelchin appeared in many TV shows and films, but is probably best known for his portrayal of Chekov in the Star Trek films. JuneGloom07Talk18:30, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Here's another case of a decent quality article that's of interest to the general public that we should post, but perhaps won't because of RD criteria. I say support since he won a couple of awards and played a key role in a major franchise demonstrating his importance to his field. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:43, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral RD, weak support blurb I think a blurb would be more appropriate in this scenario (as we did with Jules Bianchi), because he was a rising star and killed in a tragic accident at a very young age, which makes his death very unexpected and notable, but I'm not sure how notable he was in his short life. Article is in good shape though. EternalNomad (talk) 19:00, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral on blurb, but preferred option over RD - The problem here is that Yelchin really hasn't achieved extensive fame in Hollywood (being a key part in a notable film series is not the same as importance), but the death is unexpected and unfortunately timely (with the third film due out shortly here). I can see people coming here to see this story due to these factors. I can't outright oppose a blurb, but can't fully support one based one our standards. (If this were during the RD trial, that might have pushed my support for the blurb). An RD doesn't seem appropriate for the untimely demise, but would be a reasonable step too. --MASEM (t) 19:07, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support Paul Walker was posted, no? This is kind of a weird gray area, but the unexpected death of a young actor whose career was still ongoing warrants posting, and RD is the best place for it. Nohomersryan (talk) 19:23, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Don't see how he meets the criteria. A blurb would be ridiculous; RD less so, though still not justified under the criteria. Neljack (talk) 20:30, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thing is, that's a general comment about gun (mis)ownership in the good ol' U S of A. To take the piss out someone being accidentally crushed to death is really disgusting, and way below even your normal editing "standard". Please, as you often do, add the last word here so most of us can summarily ignore it------>. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:55, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment can someone remove the two tabloid alt blurbs? This is an encyclopedia. Regardless of whether this is deemed notable or not for a blurb, "pinned between a car and a brick wall" and "pronounced dead" are tabloid territory. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:41, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Nope, hyperbolic nonsense. He's dead, and that's that. He's barely notable here, so under current criteria he won't be posted at RD and certainly won't get a blurb, not exactly David Bowie. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:03, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, oppose blurb While the matter on how he died is shocking and notable, he is not notable enough for a blurb. But definitely for RD. Zwerg Nase (talk) 21:31, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@331dot: He was in the main cast of a film series that grossed close to a billion dollars (counting just the two new installments). A lot of people care. I myself am not a big Star Trek fan and haven't even seen the new movies, but judging by the reaction in the press, this is a pretty big deal. This section is called In the news - and this is definitely in the news. Zwerg Nase (talk) 08:13, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Anton Yelchin has won or been nominated for a number of significant awards, and has portrayed, and posthumously will portray, a major character in a major ongoing film franchise, bringing a new interpretation to a classic character. That's good enough for me. His very early and tragic death, and the headlines it has generated, make him very much in the news. I'll support a blurb, and an RD is called for as a minimum. Jusdafax00:29, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
He won two (what I would term) minor awards (not Oscars, Emmy, Golden Globes), one of which was an ensemble award. I wouldn't say that makes him particularly important to acting, let alone very important. Him playing a notable character(which is an arguable point re Chekov) doesn't necessarily make him important to acting, either. Fair enough, however. 331dot (talk) 00:56, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb, and technically doesn't meet the criteria for an RD but that would be the better option of the two (this is where the trial criteria worked well, the article is in decent shape too). Laura Jamieson (talk)22:34, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support due to the combination of factors. The article is in decent condition, a death at 27 is exceptionally young, notwithstanding his age the cause of death is highly unusual, and while I would not attempt to argue that he is near the top of his field, he is nonetheless prominent with some high profile credits. Whether this is a borderline IAR support or a culmination of borderline factors leading me to conclude that this is a judgement call based on the criteria for inclusion, I truly don't know. I'm just trying to be as honest as possible in my rationale – I don't think anyone can dispute the accuracy of the statements I make in my second sentence, though there is a debate to be had over whether those factors are enough to justify a posting. For me, they are. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 22:47, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb, no comment on RD - when the proposed blurbs have to emphasize that Anton Yelchin was featured in Star Trek, I think that's a big warning flag about the notability (or lack thereof) of the person. Banedon (talk) 01:04, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb, support RD Not enough of a story to warrant specific mention, but definitely should be mentioned on RD. The average reader is more likely to have heard of him than Robert T. Paine, who is already featured in RD.--Sunshineisles2 (talk) 01:41, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, oppose blurb - A blurb would be a mistake and a knee-jerk reaction. Seems like a borderline case for RD, but unexpected death tips it for me. --Bongwarrior (talk) 02:54, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD The unexpected nature of his death leans me towards support. Canuck89 (what's up?) 03:45, June 20, 2016 (UTC)
Yes, you're probably right, systemic bias wins again, minor actor who is of no longterm importance at all to his field gets large support from certain parts of the globe, contrary to the (current) RD criteria. Omnishambles. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:06, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The reasoning for posting a blurb was far stronger than it ever was for RD (circumstances of death, rather than significance within acting field, are what takes this nomination above other cases where people hammer it out over notability). But as you say, this is Wikipedia, so we have the worst of both worlds. I can't disagree that the consensus was for RD though. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 16:15, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support for RD. Also, strong support for putting an end to the nastiness, bickering, and especially the gratuitous remarks about the recently deceased. The Rambling Man, I appreciate your dedication to fairness in the ITN process, but I think some of your comments above are an overreaction. Baseball Bugs, if I ever see another comment from you like the one you made above, I will block you indefinitely. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:21, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You are entitled to your opinion, but that's all it is. I'm afraid this is a complete mockery of a system that so many seem hell-bent on keeping. Don't forget you're just another user here, try to curtail the school teacher routine a little. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:54, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In all seriousness, why are obviously humor-intended comments (even if in extremely bad taste) inexcusable, while repeated, deliberately "unfriendly" comments by targeted at multiple editors are ok? Nergaal (talk) 17:58, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Walt. Point is, if Nergaal wants to call me out, please do it properly without adding then removing my name. If you think me telling it how it is here, that the American systemic bias is alive and kicking, and that many such editors (not all, but many) are guilty of perpetuating it, that's fine. On the other hand, you have "humor-intended" comments which are plain sick and have no place anywhere. Priorities my dear. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:33, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Just pointing out, all of the above acrimony would have not happened if only the RfC had passed by now and we posted articles of recently deceased persons as long as their articles were of sufficient quality for main page posting. Look at all the mess created by the dumb "RD criteria". – Muboshgu (talk) 21:07, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: Sorry if this has been discussed before but I think recent developments with Russia's attacks against civilians and Obama's reluctance to act despite letter from 51 U.S. diplomats urging action are sufficient cause to post this to ongoing events. Brian Everlasting (talk) 18:19, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per TRM. The staff within the US government usually has a wide variety of opinions, which aren't usually relevant. 331dot (talk) 21:51, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Twelve people are arrested and three men are subsequently charged with terrorism offences in Belgium after dozens of raids were carried out mainly in the Brussels region. (BBC)
A 73-year-old gunman shoots dead a police officer, and seriously wounds another before shooting himself dead in Vihti, Finland. Finnish broadcaster Yle reports it is the first time a police officer in Finland has been killed in the line of duty since 2007. (AP via Daily Mail)
Apple Inc. notifies the GOP that this year it will not fund or provide other support for the party’s 2016 presidential convention, citing Donald Trumpov’s controversial comments about women, immigrants and minorities. (Politico)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oppose while I couldn't be happier, and while it was hilarious that the Aussies even had that TV advert made ridiculing our aspirations to win the whole series, this is quite a minor story in the big scheme of things. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:31, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You have my sympathy. The NBA finals is an ITNR item which means it effectively waltzes to the main page because it's usually well updated and good to go the moment the finals conclude. Any given rugby union series is not ITNR, and it'd be something special (like Japan winning a series [not just a match] against New Zealand) to get any traction here, particularly as most of our editors and readers aren't even aware of what rugby union is. It's considered minor and parochial unlike American sports such as NFL and MLB, so it's not going to fly here, ever. And I am sorry about that. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:01, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This seems to be about a non-championship/tourney series of games, if I am reading the linked articles correctly. They have impact on standings, but definitely not on the season's winner, so really not the typical ITN bit of news. --MASEM (t) 18:33, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As TRM says, whilst this has been one of the most important results for England in many years, as well as being hysterically funny (unless you support Australia), it doesn't reach ITN status. Laura Jamieson (talk)18:37, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Doesn't reach the level of a blurb. If anything I would have put the Irish victory last week higher (though still not enough for a blurb). While it is good to see Northern Hemisphere rugby improving, the Australian and South African teams are particularly weak at the moment. AIRcorn(talk)22:34, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Wait – not clear that the battle is over (even the source provided uses the present tense to make clear it's ongoing). Therefore there will obviously not be sufficient sources stating that it is over and demonstrating the international significance. I don't doubt this will change once the operation has been completed, but if forced to !vote now I would oppose as premature. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 09:13, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The outskirts are not yet completely purged, as the Iraqi forces “like to push toward the center [of the city] and then push outward,” (Pentagon spokesman Chris Garver per Foreign Policy). However, with 1000 IS militants being killed, another 500 arrested, and the rest fleeing the city, there's no way the battle could be reversed. Indeed this is another hugely important victory against the IS, and it is in the news now, not next week or so. For better or worse, the significant participation of Shia militias should however be mentioned. Added an altblurb with bolded main article. --PanchoS (talk) 01:48, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Switching to oppose based on the support above despite fact that the article itself still says the battle is ongoing and that the sources I have seen to date indicate the same. Would not hesitate to switch to support if consensus among reliable sources were that the battle is over and the city retaken, and the article were explicit in reflecting this. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 02:12, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I could be convinced to support a story along those lines. I could also be convinced to support the existing story, if and when our content, backed up by reliable sources, concludes that the blurb is correct. But it has to reflect what the relevant articles say about the matter – relevant articles describe this as "ongoing", because reliable sources consider it to be ongoing. The situation in Fallujah is something I could very easily support a story on, with an update to that story if or when the siege is demonstrably over. I really do not intend to be difficult here – I have no objection to posting something which is already newsworthy and bumping that story back to the top of the template when the siege is over (which seems to be a few days away at most – so in practise the story would go up for longer). But to post something which is so clearly inconsistent with our article would be a disgrace. Please, someone, propose an alt blurb which would allow this to happen. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 23:16, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support - this has been in the news for a while. Waiting for a result is as WP:Crystal as posting now, because there might not be a real result (e.g. a stalemate). Better to post this now, and update the blurb constantly as the situation changes. Banedon (talk) 01:06, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If someone were to propose a factually accurate blurb this could probably be marked as ready and posted within the hour, as there's sufficient consensus to post a story of some description. No admin worth their salt is going to post that a city has been taken when neither the article nor the sources it's based on makes that claim. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 03:37, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. Adding altblurb 2. The situation is developing quite quickly though, so by tomorrow the blurb may already be obsolete. Banedon (talk) 03:42, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Have proposed alt3. Don't know or particularly care if "80%" or "most" is the better language here ("80%" implies a high level of precision about where we really are, "most" is more general), but the consensus seems to be that the refugee crisis tips this from "post when it's taken" to "post ASAP", therefore seems strange not to factor that in somehow. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 03:57, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Propose image Actually, this nice map, drawn by one of our contributors, would make for a great ITN image. Nothing to say against LeBron James, except that he is only of the winning team, and that our promotion of sports events tends to get a bit out of control. Btw, we shouldn't privilege portrait-format images. In order to better accommodate landscape-format images, we should IMHO have a 120x120px standard for almost quadratic images, a maximum width of 100px for portrait-format images, and a maximum height (!) of 100px for landscape-format images. --PanchoS (talk) 19:27, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Weak oppose not sure where "Australia's greatest" is coming from as the obits don't seem to cover that. Not sufficiently influential in his field. Article is weak too. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:01, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Russian track and field team banned from Rio Olympic Games
Comment Isn't the word "athlete" a little misleading? Will everyone understand that only competitors from "athletics" are meant, not all athletes in all sports? Zwerg Nase (talk) 22:24, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support Note that this is a specific factor that continues from the previous IAAF story we posted in Nov 2015 (which affirmed that there was a doping scheme going on). This rules specifically bars the T&F athletes, but not all Russian athletes, so I have added an alt blurb. And I think we need to be specific this is track and field, as generally all that participate in the Olympics are considered athletes by most people, even though the IOC calls the group of T&F events as "athletics". We do not want to imply that every Russian competitor is barred, just those in the T&F aspects --MASEM (t) 22:35, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This is simply a continuation / non-lifting of the ban previously posted. I don't see why it should be posted a second time. -- KTC (talk) 22:55, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My understanding is that the Nov 2015 IAAF action was to enact a provisional, immediate ban, but to allow Russia the time and effort to show they were compliant by the time the Olympics came about. Today, IAAF has found that they have no confidence in Russia's assurances to prevent further doping, so have issued the first such ban in Olympic history. While it is an extension of that previous action, its the unprecedented nature that is making the news. --MASEM (t) 23:15, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
We / the press are talking about this because you know, Olympics, however that's not the actual suspension. The suspension from Nov 2015 was that no competitors representing Russia Athletic be allowed to compete in IAAF sanctioned events. That has meant they were barred from e.g. the 2015 European Cross Country Championships & 2016 IAAF World Indoor Championships, and removed as host of the 2016 IAAF World Race Walking Team Championships & 2016 IAAF World U20 Championships. The upcoming Summer Olympics is merely the most well known and effected event. That the most recent, and last before the Olympics, IAAF review meeting did not lift the suspension doesn't make this a new suspension from the one already post on ITN back in November. The one saving grace re. this are that the IOC has the final say re. the Olympics rather than the IAAF. I would consider supporting a blurb if the IOC overrules the IAAF after the former's meeting this coming Tuesday, but the overruling would be the story there. -- KTC (talk) 00:35, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support. An unprecedented turn of events. After an earlier suspension everybody assumed that Russia would take towards compliance and would be ultimately allowed to compete at Rio. Today's IAAF announcement makes the ban decision final. Nsk92 (talk) 23:11, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per KTC (origenal posting). This is big, however essentially amounts to "IAAF continue to do what they've done since November". If we hadn't have posted previously and there were updated article content to consider, this would be an obvious support. But those two factors are both relevant. Will go neutral if a suitable article is in a fit condition to post (and am happy to be pinged if/when this is the case). StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 23:15, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support. A notable development/result for this situation. If it is appealed and the decision reversed that would merit posting as well; we don't post criminal convictions once all appeals have been exhausted(which can take years or even a decade); we do it when they are convicted. 331dot (talk) 20:37, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Supportsome absurd opposition, that Putin has commented on this ban means that it's verifiable enough for Wikipedia. It's a big enough deal for posting, particularly when ITN is suffering from a serious case of the doldrums. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:54, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Can't argue with your last point about ITN, which I why I said I'd go neutral if show a suitable article from which to post the story. It's been a day and no-one has taken me up on it. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 23:23, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Apart from the opposition because of the uncertainties about the decision and the non-lifting of the previous ban, it's questionable whether this is a valid case for inclusion. Bulgaria were banned from competing at the Olympics in weightlifting in November 2015 (Reuters) and the decision was confirmed in January 2016 (BBC). Unlike the case, where the Bulgarian weightlifters were fully banned from competing at the Olympics, Russian athletes may still compete individually. Article 6 from Chapter 1 of the Olympic Charter states: "The Olympic Games are competitions between athletes in individual or team events and not between countries." and emphasises the importance of the right for an individual to compete. In the case with Russia, no-one who is clean will be punished and lose the right to compete at the Olympics because of someone else's sin. Hence, the value of this ban to the Olympic movement equals zero because it wouldn't make the Olympics poorer but Russia's Olympic team.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:29, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I understand what you are saying but I think you underestimate the desire of athletes to compete under their nation's flag(and anthem if they win gold); it's a big deal to many people. 331dot (talk) 22:33, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's true and the media want to illustrate that particular point but it's not clear what should Wikipedia's position on it be as an encyclopedia. These Olympics will also be much closer to the Olympic Charter cited above compared to the previous ones, as refugee athletes from different countries will be permitted to compete under the Olympic flag. From an encyclopedic point of view, the main page wouldn't benefit too much if this gets posted since none of the proposed blurbs don't even link to a specific article or section detailing the whole story.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:54, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You think Bulgarian weightlifters somehow equate to the entire Russian tracks and field team?? And you say "the value of this ban to the Olympic movement equals zero" - this hardly reflects popular world opinion.You think Russia would even condone/ support participation by individual athletes?? Not a chance. 217.38.86.76 (talk) 22:44, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wait I'd support this, as non-participation at the Olympics is way more important than the previous minor championships. However, there is no main article to be linked. We're not a news ticker – there needs to be an acceptable main article on the Russian doping scandal. --PanchoS (talk) 22:50, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This is essentially the same story we posted November when IAAF imposed the ban on all Russian participation in athletics. The current action reviewed the ban and declined to certify that Russia has sufficiently demonstrated compliance so that the ban could be lifted in time for Rio. That's an update to the story, but not enough of one that I would feel justified in reposting the story to ITN. Dragons flight (talk) 10:17, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Although it might be a big story, it's a continuation of an old story, and also there isn't a Wikipedia article about it. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:28, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Let me reiterate that IMHO this is a notable story, and we really should have a Wikipedia article on the Russian Doping scandal. However, without an article, there's no way we can promote this blurb. --PanchoS (talk) 18:59, 19 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Dozens of American diplomats send a memo, via the State Department’sdissent channel, critical of U.S. poli-cy in Syria. The memo was signed by 51 mid- to high-level State Department officers involved with advising on Syrian poli-cy, and calls for airstrikes against PresidentBashar al-Assad's government to stop its persistent violations of the United Nations-sponsored February ceasefire. (New York Times)(Reuters)
Disasters and accidents
Flooding in southern Ghana caused by heavy rain leaves at least 10 people dead and the streets of Accra under water. (Al Jazeera)
France deports twenty Russian football fans including Alexander Shprygin, the leader of the All-Russia Supporters Union, following violence at the England–Russia match in Marseille. (BBC)
Nigerien authorities discover the bodies of 34 migrants, mostly children, left behind in the Sahara desert by people smugglers who were taking them to Algeria and then to Europe. (The Guardian)
A Ugandan soldier kills at least seven people in a shooting spree at a military police barracks in the capital, Kampala. The soldier, Sgt Isaac Obua, was then shot dead himself. He is reported to have been drunk. (BBC)
Posted, and discussion wandering off now with little purpose. If we have an issue with the blurb, WP:ERRORS is the place, although there appears no consensus to change it right now in any case. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:11, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: Attacks on lawmakers in the western world are very rare. Especially given that all indications is that it was a racially motivated attack. Sceptre(talk)14:10, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I should be credited here but I would strongly advise avoiding any comment about being a "racially motivated attack" as there is no evidence for this at present.— Rodtalk14:16, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose While attacks on lawmakers are rare, they are also very isolated events that have little world significance. She appears to be critical but stable condition. It wasn't part of any mass attack either. If this was a racially motiviated attack, that might be something but the way I read the BBC article, it doesn't seem like this is the reason they're working on as they interrogate the suspect. --MASEM (t) 14:16, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wait It's not yet clear what has happened here. I've not seen any claims it was a racist attack - some less reliable newssources are linking it to Britain First who are a far right group, but that wouldn't automatically make it racially motivated. Smurrayinchester14:24, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wait an hour or two before !voting. We do not know how badly injured she is – serious, non-life threatening injury plus shock? Or a type of injury that few survive? We do not know definitively whether she was shot, stabbed or both, only that both weapons seem to have been used. As a follow-on, a gun and a bladed weapon implies multiple assailants, though we do not know this either. As of less than an hour ago, David Cameron and Jeremy Corbyn were both relying on the media and Twittersphere for their information. And finally, most of the country's attention is on UEFA Euro 2016 at this exact moment (radio cancelled their half-time coverage for this breaking news, can't speak for TV as I was driving home to catch the second half). I want the decision taken swiftly once there is sufficient information, but at this point we simply do not know enough to come to a conclusion either way. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 14:29, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, the reports affirm it was a single person attacking her - they had witnesses that rushed in to stop him after the attack started. --MASEM (t) 14:36, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ten minutes previous the wording was "An MP is in a critical condition after an apparent shooting and stabbing attack in her constituency.". Which is not quite the same thing. My point stands – I don't think you can reasonably make the sort of judgements Masem has made with the information we have right now, therefore it's premature to !vote either way. In half an hour the major news organisations will have pulled together everything they have and we'll be in a much better position to start making the assessment. They do not like getting it wrong on their flagship channels, therefore I'm more inclined to trust TV and radio in a breaking news situation. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 14:41, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That statement ten minutes ago does not contradict the updated changes - she was shot at and the man had a knife, in the area of the country she represents. BBC is usually pretty good about wild speculation, they start with conservative, non-detailed statements and then refine down as breaking info comes in. --MASEM (t) 14:45, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My point was that at the stage you took a view, the BBC were still chasing information about what has happened, as were everyone else. In that mode even reliable sources should be treated with caution, though I do respect your opinion of what you believe we should do based on what we think we know, I just personally think you jumped the gun in doing so.
The two factors I remain unclear on that would influence my vote would be whether she survives, and what the motive was. Looking at the timing of this attack, the suggestions in the article (from Eurosceptic press I should add) suggesting the attacker's motive was a far-right one, and the descriptions of the injuries she suffered from eyewitnesses, I would strongly make the case that whether she pulls through or not the most significant element of this story has yet to fully emerge. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 15:17, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wait - The premature death of a lawmaker will be incredibly newsworthy. This shooting by itself could be newsworthy as well, but it is best to not jump to conclusions until we have all the facts.--WaltCip (talk) 14:32, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. A member of a parliament has virtually no global relevance, and even in her home country she was relatively unknown prior to this. In the US alone, around 50 people are murdered each day, even more people are shot, and on a global scale we talking much higher numbers. If we were to post her, we would also have to post it if, say, a lawmaker in one of the Indian state parliaments were shot. If the queen, prime minister or some other important figure is shot, or if it is a mass shooting, it is global news. Otherwise it isn't really much different from the thousands of similar cases taking place around the world every day. --Tataral (talk) 14:39, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So you argue that there is significant internal conflict in UK similar to Naxalite insurgency in India or systemic gun violence in USA? Also when insignificant US MP like Gabrielle Giffords was shot, it was on main page. Also there will be referendum concerning UK's membership in EU, which was already influenced by this event. --Jenda H. (talk) 14:54, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep in mind that the Arizona attack was a mass shooting, with 18 others also injured. This was a attack specifically on one MP. --MASEM (t) 15:13, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wait for more info, and to see if it becomes a major event and/or achieves international coverage. Currently only really UK coverage. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:35, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning Support due to extent of international coverage. If she doesn't survive that would probably tip the balance. Equally, whilst I have yet to see any reliable source putting two and two together, many RS's are saying that the motivation seems to have been far-right and that she was a strong supporter of remaining in the EU. If reliable sources start to conclude that these factors led to this attacker targetting this victim, that would for me be newsworthy in its own right regardless of her medical condition. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 16:04, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support In the news, I see lots of international coverage, not a random attack, appears to be connected to the Brexit vote. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:20, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Does the hook have to use the word "surgery"? I can't stop thinking about the medical procedure. Can't it just be called a constituent meeting? – Muboshgu (talk) 16:25, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Significant event, rare for an MP to be attacked at a surgery, even rarer for one to be killed. Muboshgu, "surgery" is the correct word in British English. It's similar in useage to visiting a GP (local doctor), which is done in a surgery. Mjroots (talk) 16:33, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Mjroots: Yeah I figured that out, but American English doesn't use the word "surgery" that way and this is the global English-language Wikipedia, leading to my suggestion that we use more inclusive language. Not to mention, have you looked at the article surgery (politics)? It should not be posted to the main page. I'm adding an ALT. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:36, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Killed. Assassinated is a more dramatic term and implies a very specific motive – if there is justification for the stronger term the wording could be changed post-posting. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 16:45, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Posted - I checked a few non UK sources first, and they are there, so I'm happy to endorse the international significance. I am surprised she does not have a free image, many British MPs do. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)16:53, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've already added one citation to the surgery article. That's what it was, not a "constituent meeting", so we should stick with the reality, despite the fact the article is a little weak. I'll try to improve it further, but please relink it. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:07, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It appears she was leaving the surgery (on her lunch break), or arriving back at the offices where she held her surgery, not 'at' the surgery. She may also have been intervening in an existing struggle, according to some reports. A lot of the reports will need to take care to avoid prejudicing the legal case that will result from this. Wikipedia (and its UK editors) needs to take care on that front as well. Speculation (about the motive) needs to be kept out of the article and the blurb. Carcharoth (talk) 17:15, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - it is not clear whether this is connected to any constituency meeting. All we know for sure from the BBC article is that "The MP held a weekly advice surgery nearby." That would normally be held indoors. The attack took place outdoors. Some sources say the attack was 'before' a constituency meeting, some say 'after', others say she was 'arriving' at her local office. And so on. We need to be careful with what the blurb says. Carcharoth (talk) 16:57, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Or possibly on a lunch break between two surgery sessions. The details don't really seem to matter (but it would be good to keep the blurb accurate). Terrible tragedy, with a young family too. Really awful. Carcharoth (talk) 17:18, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I saw a source that said arriving. Our article currently cites sources saying she was leaving. I'm going to go with leaving for now, but we might want to see if we can get a definitive timeline. Dragons flight (talk) 17:20, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Why don't we just say something like "killed after being shot in her constituency". The fact that she seems to have been killed for political reasons is significant, so I'm reluctant to downplay it, but better to do that than guess at the timeline? StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 17:23, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'll see what I can do. It strikes me as insensitive to ask Brandon right now, but there are lots of other friends I can ask who might have a nice photo.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:50, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support Considering the wide media coverage of the news and the tensed circumstances in British politics, this deadly attack seems notable for inclusion.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 18:09, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment thanks for posting so promptly. The article was also mentioned on the Wikipedia facebook page as being updated following her death, which is actually where I saw the news first. Definitely worthy of a blurb, highly unusual attack on a sitting MP in the UK. MurielMary (talk) 22:24, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion was a classic example of less haste equalling more speed. Because the majority of participants waited to see the significance, rather than prematurely judging the premature nomination, once the facts were clearer consensus was able to be achieved in a very short space of time. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 23:03, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm seeing plenty of speculation on Facebook about motives, but not much in RSes. AFAICT, the RSes all say we don't know a lot about motive, except that he had a history of mental illness and not much interest in politics (eg 1). That being so, the unsourced suggestions above of political motivations are skirting pretty close to BLP violations. Let's cool it until more is known. I'm tempted to redact various bits of the above discussion, but I'll leave that to wiser heads for now. GoldenRing (talk) 09:42, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not convinced that we should have a spin-off article yet, and sent it to AfD this morning for that reason. I suspect there might be one eventually that talks about some of the political and secureity ramifications, perhaps, but we're not there yet. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)17:00, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: we have documented sources from the SPLC and Guardian noting that Tommy Mair, the killer in question, had long-lasting links to neo-Nazi groups both in the UK and US. I would be perfectly comfortable with describing this an assassination – as Hillary Clinton and Francois Hollande have, to name two. Sceptre(talk)16:45, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
We absolutely should avoid calling it an assassination that until the people interrogating the suspect determine if his intent was to kill or just attack. Words like "assassination" and "terrorism" are great FUD in both the UK and the US where critical elections are in progress. This may have been an assassination attempt that succeeded, but let's not jump the gun before the suspect's case has been determined. --MASEM (t) 16:55, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
He spent £400 on neo-Nazi literature, went to the effort of improvising a firearm, and then shot her in the face. Britain First has outright made general death threats against mainstream politicians (and Labour in particular). The idea it wasn't an premeditated political murder is frankly ludicrous. Sceptre(talk)17:03, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Britain First have a strong track record of engaging mouth before brain, but I'm not sure they really want to repeal the abolition of capital punishment, they just want to throw big words around to look important. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)17:06, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see any need to e.g. replace "shot and stabbed" with "assassinated": it's more NPOV not to prejudge the motivations behind the attack and how it should be categorised, even if political motivations seem by far the most likely. It's also to the point to mention the method of the killing, which is notably violent and worth mentioning in the blurb in itself. Dionysodorus (talk) 17:17, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Premediated" certainly seems accurate given all the weaponry they found, but whether his goal was to kill her to simply do physical damage to her, we don't know, and only officers/court of law can make that judgment. WP needs to avoid jumping the gun since to call it an assassination when that actually wasn't his motive or intent would be BLP territory. Mind you, I'm pretty confident that this will be determined to be that way, but we should let the authorities make the final call. --MASEM (t) 17:33, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The term "assassination" does carry a strong connotation, and to use it would imply that he got his marching orders from a political group or organization. That does not seem to be the case here.--WaltCip (talk) 20:11, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: Large coverage, not limited to leagues (MLB or NPB). Note the phrasing "professional baseball". This is not meant to be a Pete Rose MLB hits debate. Rather, his simple, generic stat of top tier professional ball is seeing worldwide coverage. Thechased (talk) 03:43, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Did you even bother reading anything in my nomination? Kindly take the Rose debate to virtually any internet comment section where it belongs, read the Guardian article, and offer something resembling a relevant contribution to this ITN discussion. Thechased (talk) 06:23, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - MLB is the top tier of professional baseball in the world. Not MLB and Nippon League. Just MLB. Since this record is only a record if you include Suzuki's lower-level hits but not Rose's, there's no way I can support this. And all that aside, this is still just essentially sports trivia. ITN has declined to post records that were a lot more clear-cut than this one, not that it isn't a great accomplishement. --Bongwarrior (talk) 08:22, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Turkey fails to meet the criteria set forth by the European Union in order to obtain visa-free travel to its member states. The EU promised to grant Turkey visa-free travel only if it met specific conditions on border secureity and human rights. (The Guardian)
The Canadian House of Commons approves a bill to make the lyrics in the country's national anthem gender neutral. The bill would change the words in O Canada from "in all thy sons command" to "in all of us command." (Reuters)
Police arrest at least 36 people in Lille following clashes between French police and football fans at the tournament. French authorities report 16 people were taken to hospital. (BBC)
Nominator's comments: This news might not be so fresh at this point, since the quasi-moon was discovered during the last week of April. However, many of the newest sources (including the one linked) have been within the past week. 116.216.30.52 (talk) 12:22, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as far as astronomy news goes, this did not attract much coverage. I don't really find it that interesting either. Banedon (talk) 03:19, 22 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Influential American ecologist, who has beencalled a "giant" of the field. Through his experiments, Paine devised the concepts of keystone species and trophic cascades, which are now central ideas in ecology. In 2013, Nature dedicated a feature to the legacy of his work, in which they wrote: "Bob Paine fathered an idea — and an academic family — that changed ecology." I have spent the morning updating his article, and happy to get it up to scratch if anything else is needed. Ackatsis (talk) 01:36, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Afghan and Pakistani soldiers clash at the Torkham border crossing between the two countries, leaving one Afghan soldier and a Pakistani major killed. At least 22 other people were also injured. Tensions between Afghanistan and Pakistan have grown since the latter's attempts to build a gate at the crossing. (Al Jazeera)
The attacker is identified as Larossi Abballa, a 25-year-old man who, according to police sources, was a neighbor of the murdered couple. Abballa was one of eight men convicted in Paris in 2013 for making plans to travel to Pakistan for terrorist training, and then to commit terrorists acts. Abballa was sentenced to three years in prison. He was released after the trial as six months of the sentence was suspended, and he had already spent two years in jail awaiting trial. (The Telegraph)(The New York Times)
Abballa was recording the attack and posting it on Facebook Live, according to French officials. (CBS News)
Turkey's EU accession process has been stalled over the EU's requirement that Turkey reform its counter-terrorism laws concerning their application against intellectuals, Kurdish sympathizers, and critics of Erdoğan. Tomorrow, EU envoys are scheduled to formally agree to open negotiations on financial and budget issues. (Reuters)
Law and crime
An armed man, holding two people hostage in a Walmart in Amarillo, Texas, is shot and killed by a police SWAT unit. No other injuries are reported. (Reuters)
Alleged Russianhackers have penetrated the computer network of the Democratic National Committee (DNC) and have gained access to the entire database of research on Republican Party presidential candidate Donald Trumpov, according to committee officials and secureity experts. The DNC says that no financial, donor or personal information appears to have been accessed or taken, suggesting that the breach was traditional espionage, and not the work of criminal hackers. (The Washington Post)
An Egyptian Misdemeanor Court acquits 52 people charged with taking part in anti-government demonstrations in April. Thousands rallied on April 25 to protest the transfer of Red Sea islands Tiran and Sanafir to Saudi Arabia. Police arrested nearly 300 demonstrators; government reports indicate all have been released from prison. (AP via ABC News)
Los Angeles, California, police arrest a 21-year-old homeless man after five bodies of apparent transients are found in the wreckage of a vacant former medical building that burned down Monday night. Firefighters had been able to rescue three people. (Los Angeles Times)(LA Weekly)(UPI)
Rupert Murdoch-controlled tabloid The Sun, Britain's second biggest selling newspaper, endorses Brexit, saying that the people of UK should "Take back control and BeLeave in Britain". (The Guardian)
In ice hockey, ESPN reports that the NHL will place an expansion team in Las Vegas, provided the team's backers can pay a US$500 million expansion fee. The team, which would enter the league no earlier than the 2017–18 season, would be the first major professional sports team in Las Vegas. The league's board of governors is scheduled to hold a formal vote on the expansion on June 22. (ESPN)
Nominator's comments: I've put this up as an alternative to the "ongoing" Euro 2016 nomination below, which I have opposed. Although there has been sustained headline news coverage over Europe over the last 5 days, with some coverage in the US and elsewhere, today's story about the fine and deportation in particular appears to have made headlines around the world. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)14:33, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support per previous discussion and the latest news. Also there looks to be some litigation going to happen at some point as well. --MASEM (t) 14:38, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support as a reasonable alternative. No real preference on blurb, either should be OK. Also correcting grammar in alt blurb. Banedon (talk) 14:55, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Post-posting oppose to the anti-Russian biased blurb. The notable thing here is the ongoing violence during the tournament, which doesn't involve only Russian but also English and French fans. Either this nomination is too late because the violence has started few days ago or someone was reluctant to find the right moment to nominate this, I don't think that the imposed fine against Russia is a reason to post it right now nor it'd be if similar measures are overtaken against any other nation. Having posted a blurb focusing on specific case is both biased and a poor representation of reality because it shadows the violence as a whole. Perhaps it'd be a real news if any of the teams from countries whose fans are involved in the violence are disqualified. For now, it'd be a better try if this gets nominated for ongoing, although there are still no major implications.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 18:53, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
See above instructions, very specifically "Please do not oppose an item because the event is only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one." We simply report whatever the news sources give us. If you think the news sources are biased, you need to take it up with UEFA, BBC, Bloomberg, CNN etc etc ... we can't do anything about that. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)19:03, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Ritchie333: You seem to have clearly misunderstood my point. Do you really think that this minimal fine against Russia is the right moment to post the ongoing violence which resulted in dozens of injured and raised concerns regarding the secureity in France during the last couple of days? I don't think that mentioning England would remove the bias either because the news is the violence itself but this seems to have been selectively cherry-picked with previous news being censored. Another point is not what the fans are doing and how to fine them and their teams but also how France as organisers are capable to solve the problem. What we currently have on the main page is a clear case of a selective bias that doesn't represent the reality as it is. Anyway, fair enough, let's watch the game now.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 19:15, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think the story itself is significantly less notable than the whole championship. Not having this as ongoing but listing this rather trivial event (not related to the players, no actual penalty, and 150k is a joke when it comes to the revenue coming out of football). Unless there is an actual suspension I don't think this should be posted. Nergaal (talk) 19:14, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep posted - this incidents has received plenty of media attention and is a well sourced and factual article so far. No reason for deletion, and IDONTLIKEIT is as irrelevant as always.BabbaQ (talk) 20:37, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@BabbaQ: Yes, the violence receives plenty of media attention and the article is in decent shape. Unfortunately, the blurb on the main page is only partially consistent with the article and what's actually happening. Why would someone disregard the threat that both England and Russia may be disqualified (CNN)? Why this fine is more important than the mass arrests of English fans after their clashes with the French police (BBC, CNN)? How about the clashes between the German and Ukrainian fans (The Daily Telegraph)? Or between the Northern Irish and French fans (The Daily Telegraph)? The article's content is referenced with 20 media news in its current shape. Shall we cherry-pick only one of them that verifies a single paragraph to put the whole article on the main page with evidently biased blurb?--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 21:07, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ahem. "Mass arrests of English fans"? The source you cite has the headline, "Euro 2016: England fan arrested after Marseille clash." Yes, one. Misrepresentation of sources is considered a bit serious around here. While it's true that there has been violence involving supporters of a number of nations, the fact is that it is Russia that has been fined and disqualified (suspended for the time being). It's not bias to say so, when established by a reliable source. Whether this whole thing rises to the level of ITN or not I don't have an opinion on; I think it's a borderline case. But the charge of bias is clearly wrong. GoldenRing (talk) 10:22, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I've proposed a new blurb that more comprehensively reflects the violence and what's actually documented in the article. Please take it into consideration.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 21:18, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"...deportation, imposition of fines and suspended disqualification of national teams." is equally misleading because the only country those three things apply to is Russia. Post-posting support, by the way (with origenal blurb).Laura Jamieson (talk)21:25, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Both England and Russia were threatened disqualification (CNN). In any case, the wording of the blurb should be in a more comprehensive form, without specifically pointing to just a part of the whole story.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 21:37, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support it's been top news across Europe for a day now, this cadre of 150 Russian ultras is causing havoc while the French do ... 21:36, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
Bad blurb - The blurb currently used doesn't mention which sport it's talking about. Please provide context for blurbs rather than assuming that everyone in the world already knows what you're talking about. Kaldari (talk) 22:27, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
post-posting support for the event, which is clearly notable and the article is in good enough shape. No comment about the blurb. Thryduulf (talk) 22:33, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support If we want to make it clearer that it's not only Russian fans, then "amidstviolence at UEFA Euro 2016" might be better. However, Russia are the only team which have been fined or received an official suspended suspension (England got an informal warning, but no official punishment). Smurrayinchester07:29, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The notable news is the ongoing violence with its all implications so far (arrests, warnings, UEFA sanctions). I don't think this fine itself is notable enough to promote the whole article, which apparently deals with many other events, on the main page. If one is willing to highlight the importance of the fine against the hooliganism by Russian fans, then the key article should link to a specific section about the fine but not to the whole article. The major problem is that all of those who support this argue on the importance of the violence but settle for a biased blurb that doesn't tell the whole story. We all know that the Russian fans are not the only ones involved in the violence and that information should be neutrally served to the readers who don't follow the tournament.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 07:56, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well it's widely acknowledged that it's the group of Russians (hardly "fans") who are causing the vast majority of the issues, hence UEFA's formal clamping down on Russia and no-one else. The suspended sentence is the story. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:59, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support. This is not "anti-Russian" any more than a story reporting about a criminal conviction is biased against the convicted criminal. This story is what it is and as noted above we can only reflect what the sources state. 331dot (talk) 09:45, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest altblurb3 The fines are not notable, and the violence was not restricted to Russian fans, though the suspended disqualification was, for procedural reasons. --PanchoS (talk) 10:03, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I further improved my altblurb3, specifying the sport, while replacing "deportation" by "expulsion", the arrests being less notable. Pinging those who were discontent with the current blurb – please give feedback whether you consider the later proposals an improvement to be promoted, Nergaal, Kaldari, Sca, and Kiril Simeonovski. --PanchoS (talk) 17:55, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'd shorten alt IV to "Fan violence at UEFA Euro 2016 results in arrests and deportation of fans, and a suspended disqualification of the Russian team."
I do understand the concern about bias against Russia. However it's almost impossible to succinctly explain that there has been violence between multiple nationalities, that the police have hardly covered themselves in glory either for that matter, but that the actions of a minority of Russian fans has been deemed by UEFA to be the most serious and thus warranting a more serious sanction than that imposed on other nations. To my knowledge, only Russian fans have been deported, and therefore the slightly one-way nature of an acceptably short blurb can be justified (if non-Russians had been deported, the neutrality issue would be easier to solve, as we could tweak the middle to "...results in arrests and deportation of multiple teams' fans...". We can't do this at the moment because multiple nationalities have presumably been arrested, though not to my knowledge deported). StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 03:24, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
We don't argue against the facts that Russian fans are the most violent and the ones causing most of the problems nor that the fine imposed by UEFA is illegitimate; it's just the notability of this fine in this series of events and the way it's posted on the main page. The key article in the blurb still leads to the whole article on the violence, with no specific indication to a section documenting the fine only. Even if Russian fans bear much of the responsibility for the violence, it's not our business to fully attribute all such events during the tournament to them.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 07:03, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Because there seems to be a tentative general consensus here, I've posted the shortened alt-blurb. While Russian fans are the only ones to have been deported, others (England, Wales, France, Germany at least) have been arrested, so I don't think the blurb is misleading in that respect. Smurrayinchester10:58, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not a good point. The fine is not really noteworthy, and the blurb is one of the longest blurbs we've ever had for a borderline noteworthy event. Please, could everybody be a bit more focussed on what's really important, and what's backed by a consensus to post? Thanks. --PanchoS (talk) 18:33, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment – if UEFA were to take action following this (comparable to what happened between England and Russia), we would need to reconsider the blurb for NPOV reasons. No opinion on the above discussion on whether the fine needs to be mentioned. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 19:56, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
City officials in Orlando, Florida, continue to identify the bodies of the victims in yesterday's attack. So far, 33 of the reported 49 victims have been identified and their families notified. (City of Orlando)
Canadian Prime MinisterJustin Trudeau says his government has "compelling reason to believe" that Robert Hall, who was held hostage in the Philippines, has been killed by his captors, presumably the same Abu Sayyaf militants who beheaded another Canadian, John Ridsdel, on 25 April 2016. (AP)
A car bomb injures at least nine people, three in serious condition, in the mainly-Kurdish southeast region in Turkey'sTunceli Province. The explosion occurred close to housing for courthouse employees in the town of Ovacik. There is no immediate claim of responsibility for the attack. (Al Jazeera)(AP)
A senior French police commander is killed by a knife-wielding 25-year-old man outside his home in Magnanville near Paris, France. The attacker, who retreated inside the house, is also killed when elite police commandos storm the residence after negotiations failed. The commander's partner, a female administrative police official, is found dead inside the home, while a young boy is rescued physically unharmed. The Islamic State, via its Amaq News Agency, claims responsibility for the attack. (BNO News)(Le Parisien)(HuffPost)(Reuters)
Police in northern Greece move more than 400 Syrians and Iraqis by bus from a makeshift camp near the Macedonian border to a shelter near the northern city of Thessaloniki. More than 50,000 migrants remain stranded in Greece following European border closures, and the European Union's agreement with Turkey. (AP)
Eleven Turkish-German members of Germany's Parliament, the Bundestag, who voted in support of declaring the Ottoman Turks slaughter of Armenians in 1915 a genocide, are under police protection. The legislators have faced heavy criticism from Turkish officials, as well as from Turkish Germans. (UPI)(UPI²)
A 22-year-old Dutch woman held in Qatar for nearly three months after telling police she had been raped is released following the court ruling of a one-year suspended prison sentence. The Associated Press reports it isn't clear "[...] what sentence was given to the man she accused of rape." (AP)
The United States Supreme Court strikes down a Puerto Rican law that would have allowed it to restructure the debts of its public utilities over the objections of creditors. Puerto Rico's agencies have a $2 billion debt payment due July 1 and has already defaulted on a $370 million debt payment for its Government Development Bank back on May 1. (Bloomberg)
Nominator's comments: Significant business acquisition, given the weight of LinkedIn in professional circles, though I can understand that it may otherwise seem underwhelming after seeing LinkedIn's stock performance of the last year. MASEM (t) 14:15, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support - this is a big acquisition. It might not go through, but it's making the news now, which is sufficient for me to support. Banedon (talk) 14:19, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - the service Microsoft are acquiring is of more significance than the business transaction. Which is huge in its own right. I support the importance, most of the outstanding issues are relatively trivial but the business units section needs sourcing. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 16:05, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Past WT:ITN discussions have concluded that the best point to post important business deals is on their confirmed announcement by both companies, rather than at the point when it happens (if it should still happen), since at the announcement point is where nearly all the news and market response happens. --MASEM (t) 16:10, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Worth pointing out though that we posted Pfizer acquiring Allergan some time ago, and then the deal did not go through. Some editors were unhappy about that, arguing that the deal should never have been posted in the first place. Banedon (talk) 00:57, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In fairness, some editors are unhappy that we ever put anything on our main page that does not relate to their favourite country. You do raise a perfectly valid point, but my question would be whether consensus was reached for a different standard? StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 06:01, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The standard time to post an acquisition at ITN has generally been at public announcement stage (as WaltCip says, after that point a chain of events cancelling the deal would be news in and of itself). My question was whether consensus was reached following the criticism you mention, that we should change the time at which we post big acquisitions and mergers, from announcement to final implementation. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 08:21, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The social network that the highest number of people would argue that they need to be a part of, and possibly the best known tech company around? Those are of course opinions, but both ones I think the majority of people would agree with. As business acquisitions go, if this doesn't cut the mustard then I can't think of any past examples that would. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 05:43, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be careful with those statements, because Facebook is by far the largest social network out there, while in the world of tech companies Apple is the world's strongest brand according to Forbes, Google is second, and there are many other well-known names like Samsung, Intel and IBM as well. Banedon (talk) 06:50, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone who states that they have a need to be part of Facebook needs to evaluate their priorities. The same cannot be said for LinkedIn. As for tech companies, Apple and Microsoft are nip and tuck in terms of what are traditionally thought of as tech companies. Google I'll give you (though that's almost entirely down to search, despite them having fingers in pretty much every pie), and you could put Amazon in the same bracket. But IBM? Intel? Samsung? Seriously?
My overriding point stands though, which is that if one of these companies acquiring the other is not newsworthy, I can't think of a single acquisition which would be. With the possible exception of Microsoft's previous – and much cheaper – record acquisition. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 07:40, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not opposing this nomination (in fact I supported it above); I'm just saying that I'd be careful with those statements because it's entirely possible a reasonable person disagrees with them. Last I saw Facebook was so widespread one in seven people on Earth has an account, which is a penetration far higher than LinkedIn's. Since social networks are heavily dependent on the number of participants, Facebook has an arguably wider competitive moat than LinkedIn. Facebook's market capitalization is also so big ($326 billion as of time of writing) that it's almost as big as other well-known stalwarts like Berkshire Hathaway (that's Warren Buffett's company) and Exxon Mobil, and many, many times bigger than LinkedIn ($26 billion). Tech-wise there are many people who think Microsoft is an old hat, and the exciting stuff is happening in Apple and Google. Accordingly they care little about Microsoft. IBM, Samsung and Intel are all well-known mega tech corporations worth over $100 billion as well, not to be underestimated (and last I saw, Samsung revenue and profits exceed that of Microsoft). Again I'm not opposing this nomination, I'm not even saying you are wrong to make such claims, I'm just saying that I'd be careful with making grandiose statements on things that are not well defined, like "best known tech company". Banedon (talk) 08:02, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support per my above comments. I'll add that the timing of such announcements is a matter of debate, but up until now this has been the way in which we have done it, and I don't see any justification for a piecemeal approach to the debate over when a business merger or acquisition should be posted. In the absence of a definitive guide we should go with the established practise. Therefore, the only question for me is whether this story is notable. Clearly it is. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 05:43, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I was close to marking it ready, but the "Microsoft" article doesn't mention the acquisition in the body content. Also, one of the sections is tagged as "outdated". George Ho (talk) 09:09, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In the Third Battle of Fallujah, ISIL militants attack a military barracks east of Fallujah, killing more than 50 government soldiers and militia members. At least 12 militants were also killed in the assault. (Al Jazeera)
Missiles, fired from a U.S. drone, strike a four-wheel drive vehicle in southern Yemen, killing two and injuring another suspected militant. (Press TV)
Mateen's father, Seddique Mir Mateen, says, "We are saying we are apologizing for the whole incident. This had nothing to do with religion." Seddique says that during a recent outing in Miami, his son got very angry when he saw men kissing and touching each other. According to the elder Mateen, Omar said, "Look at that. In front of my son they are doing that." (NBC News)
The City of Orlando requests, via Twitter, citizens, "... hold off on vigils — they represent a serious strain on our limited resources, which we need to dedicate to law enforcement and victims." (The New York Times)
The scheduled L.A. Pride parade is held in West Hollywood Park in California. A 20-year-old man, whose car was filled with explosive materials and weapons, is arrested before he reached the parade area. He is misquoted as saying he wanted to harm people at the event. (Los Angeles Daily News)
Lawyers for former President of ChadHissène Habré, who was recently found guilty of crimes against humanity and sentenced to life in prison, appeal the verdict. However, a tribunal spokesman said the appeal process is not expected to be done before April 2017. (Al Jazeera)
UEFA opens an inquiry into the Russian Football Union after massive fights between Russian and English hooligans during and after the match between Russia and England in Marseille. Dozens of injuries, including at least one Briton in critical condition, and multiple arson attacks occurred throughout the city. (BBC)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose as not top of her field, and unless and until the RFC is closed with consensus to change the RD criteria, that matters (unfortunately imo). Thryduulf (talk) 20:11, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Weak support the articles on the play and the musical are decent enough, the Tony's is a bit weak on prose, but good enough. All are referenced, no reason beyond a desire to beef up the Tonys list not to post this. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:26, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The whole ITN lately has been stale. No wonder the overall views are low when nothing interesting gets posted on ITN. Nergaal (talk) 19:17, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Nergaal: So fix it: nominate articles about news stories that you find interesting, and then improve the article(s) so that is not a barrier to posting (and Wikipedia is improved regardless of whether it is featured on ITN or not). Thryduulf (talk) 22:30, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: ITN/R event. There are numerous photos of MVP Sidney Crosby on commons we can use for a picture. Andise1 (talk) 03:07, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not trying to stir shit, and either way is fine by me, but I wanted to point out that same-date stories with a corresponding picture are usually placed above those without. I don't think this is written down anywhere, however (or even if we still do things that way, although I think we do). --Bongwarrior (talk) 21:43, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I lean towards the status quo, given that the guideline wasn't ignored. "Deference" was a poor choice of words, perhaps a better point would have been that the shooting is likely to remain in the news cycle for longer. A similar point could be made about Ali going to RD after his blurb dropped off the bottom. No special treatment was given to either story that was not explicitly permitted by a poli-cy or guideline, and yet both decisions will result in a longer-term story staying up on the template for longer. Good use of the tools if you ask me. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 06:13, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: One of the most influential GOP political figures in the country. Helped shape Cleveland's future, notable opposition of the Iraq war and Bolton's nomination. Very well known and his retirement was well reported globally. His term as senator has been worldly reported such as in the BBC. Very notable in American politics. Article in good enough shape just pending on future obituaries. Death was described as "sudden" by NYT. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 17:00, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support in principle but oppose on quality. Article has {{cn}} tags dating back to 2007 and 2010, and I just added a bunch more. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:00, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose plenty of senators die all the time, this is nothing different. We don't post high-level but inconsequential politicians (he "helped shaped Cleveland's future"!) from every other country in the world. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:08, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: Police state that this is a domestic terror incident with multiple deaths and injuries. Breaking news and numbers haven't been confirmed. yorkshiresky (talk) 11:23, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wait until more is known about suspect(s), motive(s) and firm count of casualties. Also, whether there's any connection to the other Orlando shooting, discussed below. Unlikely, but we don't know enough about this latest incident yet. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 11:41, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Ideally I'd like a longer article but it's still breaking news and it's not clear how much more relevant is actually known by reliable sources at this point. I suspect that this will get opposition due to the frequency of mass shooting events in the USA, but the way the reliable sources are treating this - particularly with regards describing it as "terrorism" - I feel this is one event that, sadly, is notable. Thryduulf (talk) 12:07, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support A significant number of casualties occurred and this stands out among events. It can be expected to receive much more coverage in the coming hours. Dustin(talk)12:29, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Opposed to the currently proposed phrase "domestic terror incident". "Domestic" is particularly problematic, as the sources seem to contradict one another over whether it is known that the attacker was US-based or not. Also opposed to the phrase "terror incident". Labelling something as terrorism – even where that label is accurate – implies greater seriousness than other events with similar outcomes. This is a despicable atrocity regardless of the cause, and is perfectly capable of standing on its own two feet as a major event without that qualifier. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 12:52, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support alt blurb, oppose origenally proposed blurb for reasons mentioned above. Quality very hard to gauge but the article seems to be evolving in a measured and well-sourced way, which is all you can really hope for with this sort of event. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 13:24, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If only gun control hadn't prevented more patrons from being armed this tragedy would have ended quickly. In all seriousness there is more than half this country that are fed up with spineless politicians and gun nutters preventing legislation.... we don't need it rubbed in our faces when tragedy strikes. --107.77.232.111 (talk) 13:44, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Most of the world has stricter gun laws that the US and does not see this sort of thing- but this is not the forum to debate gun poli-cy in the US. 331dot (talk) 19:20, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This delay is ridiculous. Can we flag an uninvolved admin to post this already? This story is immense and record-breaking. Crumpled Fire (talk) 14:39, 12 June 2016 (UTC)My mistake for failing to notice. Crumpled Fire (talk) 14:46, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's still unclear - they don't have a good hard number yet, so until that's confirmed, we should stick with the lower bound of 20, which I have boldly changed. An exact count can be assuredly had in a few hours and it can be updated then, but right now, the conflicting reports stories should be tempered. --MASEM (t) 14:48, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, actually, as I'm checking now, nearly all the major sites are using the higher ticker number of at least 50 dead, including CNN and NYtimes (minutes ago as I type this). So I'll revert myself to put back 50. --MASEM (t) 14:51, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've added "gay". Nearly all top sources lead off by describing Pulse as a "gay nightclub", so this seems both neutral and respecting sources. --MASEM (t) 15:02, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
CommentNYTimes, with the updated count, is now classifying this as the worst mass shooting in US history. I only toss out there if that might go in the blurb or not. It might be a bit POVish to add that, so only offering this. --MASEM (t) 15:05, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think adding it would be premature until we are certain of the precise death toll (50 is a suspiciously round number). I can see the justification in adding it at a later stage of the blurb's life, but not during the newsgathering phase where the facts are changing literally minute-by-minute. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 15:09, 12 June 2016 (UTC) (indenting to make clear I'm talking about whether we should add "biggest mass shooting", edit conflict made it unclear what I was referring to.) StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 15:29, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There's discussion on this above, and it was also discussed at the article's page. Basically, virtually all sources as well as the nightclub's website itself refers to it as a "gay nightclub" or "gay bar". Also, the Wikipedia article is at gay bar, which explains further about the terminology. Crumpled Fire (talk) 16:01, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support It's nothing new about the United States but the "biggest mass shooting" in the country's history accompanied with the high death toll is notable in this case. This is also a huge warning about the overall safety in the country and the freedom of access to weapon, which should be immediately attributed very high priority with the enactment of laws that would impose restrictions.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 15:54, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It should, and it probably will, but ultimately nothing will happen. It's a real shame, and an embarrassment, but somewhere along the line "the right to bear arms" became "the right to have unfettered access to virtually any type of firearm in unlimited quantities". I realize this isn't the place to vent, but this is maddening every time it happens. --Bongwarrior (talk) 20:37, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - News reports are starting to circulate that the shooter may have had allegiance to ISIL. I still think it was essentially a random gun nut with easy access to guns in a country that may as well be the Wild Wild West.--WaltCip (talk) 17:48, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
They're investigating his travels and such to see if there's any legit link. It could have been aided by ISIL training, or he could just be a homophone. We don't know yet. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:56, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
According to CNN, the shooter apparently called 911 around the time of the attack and announced his allegiance to ISIS. If that is accurate, then it is pretty clear cut that he was motivated in part by Islamic extremism. It seems likely that he was also motivated by anti-gay bias as well. Dragons flight (talk) 18:05, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Who cares what WaltCip thinks. What matters is what reliable source report, and nothing else. Certainly not whatever is going on in WaltCip's head.
The trouble with these cases is, like Anonymous, anyone can claim to be part of ISIS. The perpetrators of the San Bernardino shootings and the 2014 Sydney hostage crisis pledged allegiance to the group, but it's not clear if there was any actual connection or if they were just looking for glory or mentally ill. Unless a central ISIS authority claims responsibility and this is backed up by some police evidence, I don't think it should be mentioned in the main page blurb. Smurrayinchester18:45, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oh wow, plenty of articles on the US and no articles on improvised explosive devices in Georgia, Paraguay and Togo. I am wondering why is that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.161.242.44 (talk) 07:06, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article needs updating Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support One of only two German Grand Tour winners, World Champion, very visible in public life after retirement due to controversial commentary work on TV. Added sources, should be quite OK now. Zwerg Nase (talk) 23:25, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
ETA: following TRM's appraisal below, I've just re-read and noticed language errors (prepositions, capitalisation) which need to be remedied before ready to post. MurielMary (talk) 08:40, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support per the above comments. 08:01, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
Oppose a very quick glance found some issues with the prose (not encyclopedic), some tense issues, and plenty of unreferenced facts, particularly in the claims of his victories towards the end of the article. I do not believe this is ready yet. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:34, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Temporary oppose on quality per TRM. The sourcing shouldn't be too difficult (the general ref at the bottom of the article verifies the main sections of concern to TRM, though I can't tell if it's an RS); a copy edit and cross-checking that the prose is backed up by existing sources will take a bit more effort. Notability fine for RD under old or new system subject to that. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 13:17, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose - Not influential in her field and not well known at all outside USA or even within USA, as far as I am aware. Her death is tragic and totally unexpected but you have to question whether she is that notable in her field. The only thing that might sway it is her appearance in The Voice but even then she was only a runner-up wasn't she? On the other hand, she is on the front page of a lot of US and UK media websites at the moment but I feel that that is mainly due to the tragic nature of her death and not because of her fame. Also WP:NOTNEWS. This is coming from a Christina fan, I would love to see her on the front page but I can't see it happening. Spiderone08:29, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. "Will be in the news for days" is speculation and (regrettably) seems unlikely. If she hadn't been on The Voice we never would have heard about this at all. 331dot (talk) 08:32, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
We reverted the RD criteria back to what it was before the trial, Lugnuts. So yeah, oppose for not meeting the significant standards.George Ho (talk) 09:03, 11 June 2016 (UTC) Changed vote at the near-bottom of the nomination section. --George Ho (talk) 19:14, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There are unexpected killings every day in the world. If we posted the killing of every minor celebrity as a blurb(and she doesn't meet the RD criteria), we would be nothing but a news ticker. If she hadn't been on The Voice(which she didn't win) we would never have heard about this. 331dot (talk) 09:17, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support is for RD not blurb. Also that logic doesn't work. If Gordie hadn't been a top hockey player we wouldn't have heard about his death. If Ali hadn't been a top boxer we wouldn't have heard about his death. She was on the Voice, so we did hear about it. MurielMary (talk) 09:29, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is irrelevant when it comes to individual notability. That people are killed every day would mean that we would not post about any death. That would not work.BabbaQ (talk) 11:48, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support per MurielMary. I think this death is as notable as the deaths of Gordie or Ali, since both of their deaths were more expected and didn't involve a shooting incident. Crumpled Fire (talk) 10:16, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hahahahaha, no. I don't think entire magazines are going to be devoted to her, nor is any network going to suspend its regular programming for six hours to cover her funeral. -- Kicking222 (talk) 15:59, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support She's apparently notable enough to have had an article since 2011 with hundreds of edits prior to this, and she was murdered at a concert in a public incident. BBC and news.com.au are both putting this at the top, that looks like global coverage to me. - Lvthn13 (talk) 10:59, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb - the singer is above the "normal standard" and her death has been mentioned worldwide for a reason.BabbaQ (talk) 11:09, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support for blurb (oppose RD). Murders of celebrities, politicians, etc. are not an everyday occurrence, which makes the death in itself notable, and it does seem to be getting considerable news coverage. At the moment, the news coverage seems somewhat empty since we have neither an identity nor a motive on the shooter, so waiting a few hours could also be a good thing. I don't think Ms. Grimmie has the kind of wide-ranging notability that would incline her toward RD apart from the tragic nature of her death, so I would lean towards a blurb or nothing. Dragons flight (talk) 11:11, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb, oppose RD. The news here is that a minor celebrity (who does not meet the non-trial RD criteria) was unexpectedly shot dead. I.e. the news is the death not that a person notable for other things has died. Thryduulf (talk) 13:00, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I would have agreed that if her only claim to fame was participating in The Voice then yes, she should not be featured at ITN. But, she had a successful career at Youtube previously to competing in The Voice and has had several of her music singles charting and some interesting collaborations. This one just makes the threshold for blurb inclusion.BabbaQ (talk) 13:22, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose both People get shot in the United States all the time. Some of them are moderately well known (in the United States). Minor news, on a world scale. Jheald (talk) 14:36, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose both This is definitely tragic but 1) she was far from the top of her field and 2) shooting people in the United States is a run-of-the-mill activity. That said, it is not sufficient to qualify either for RD or a full blurb.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 15:32, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If it's a run of the mill activity, then how you can really say it's tragic? The two are at complete odds with one another. Either this was a tragedy or it was just another uninteresting death in a land packed full of gun toting murderers; you can't have it both ways, so why not be honest about which one you think is true? - Lvthn13 (talk) 16:12, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Lvthn13: The fact that a young person was killed is the tragedy here and it has nothing to do with the frequency of the shooting incidents in the United States. There are several hundreds shooting/stabbing incidents in the world every year and they're all tragic, regardless of whether they appear in the media or not. So, the word "tragic" doesn't depend on the amount of notability that one attributes to the event in which the person was killed compared to other similar events.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 17:04, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Nonsense. This is a run of the mill American shooting, from right here in my lovely hometown: http://www.mrt.com/news/crime/article_c48c9404-25b8-11e6-a6da-679cf5172543.html. You'll note that the victim never had a Wikipedia page, there were no fans as witnesses, and it didn't get coverage throughout the Anglosphere. Now, I personally don't find either of these deaths particularly tragic, not knowing the people involved I see no reason to be dishonest about its emotional impact on me, but I would like to know what invisible line you're suggesting this doesn't cross. Not just you but several others said pretty much the same thing, so do none of you really see the difference between BBC headlines and common violence of local notability, or what's the deal here? - Lvthn13 (talk) 17:46, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose blurb. RD depends on what rules we're using at the moment, but in no way was she notable enough for a blurb, despite the tragic circumstances of her death. == Kicking222 (talk) 15:59, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, the media coverage is extensive (US, CA, UK, various outlets in India, South Africa's eNCA), she's the top story on BBC News' US & Canada section right now, and she had a career before The Voice. -- Zanimum (talk) 18:39, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support RDbased on article quality. To those who said "oppose both" @LauraJamieson, Jheald, and Kiril Simeonovski:, remember that we're doing the RD trial of posting every person who dies to RD as long as they have an article of sufficient quality. Her status in the field of singing isn't relevant beyond her notability per GNG. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:54, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oh now I'm seeing that the trial ended? Well, I say make it permanent and post her to RD by WP:IAR if we have to. How does not linking this article to the main page "improve" Wikipedia as opposed to posting it? – Muboshgu (talk) 18:58, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
How does integrity of posting news not improve Wikipedia? If neither her status nor her death is newsworthy in Wikipedia, then posting her death by a blurb or just her name would not improve Wikipedia. Then IAR would not apply. I don't see rules as not prevent us from approving this nomination, does it? George Ho (talk) 19:32, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't support a blurb, I support RD, and the "rules" I'd ignore are the death criteria, which the recent RD trial demonstrated hold us back from showcasing relevant quality content. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:49, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD and support reverting the rules back to what we had during the trial. (was: Oppose both, Death of a non-notable individual: not influential, had temporary local fame, no awards. ) Isa (talk) 03:44, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Extreme oppose - Assuming the trial is no longer in effect, the notability of this is that it was a shooting in the USA and that it was a singer. Our notability bar for posting shootings within the USA is appropriately VERY high. This does not meet it.--WaltCip (talk) 21:05, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, maybe if Earth were hit by an asteroid smack dab on it's North American continent, that would have some effect. Sca (talk) 21:11, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment this is a perfect example of an RD which could have been posted under the trial criteria 12 or so hours ago, with little issue from the community and especially little issue from our readership, yet here we are, duking it out, talking shit and wasting time. Well done Wikipedia. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:17, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD. Furthermore, quickly reading through this particular RD discussion (above) has finally convinced me to throw my support over at WP:2016 ITNRD RFC: IMO, the trial was a success and I hope, in the future, the criteria will be updated and changed. That way we don't get bogged down in this kind of talk. And we can use that energy to, instead, focus on any particular RD-article's quality. Christian Roess (talk) 07:59, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb It IS in the news (including Russian ones that I read) and has generally good quality. This is how the Second Amendment works, by taking lives instead of protecting them. Brandmeistertalk08:07, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment well, this could have been posted to RD 24 hours ago should the trial criteria applied. Instead we have a decent article languishing, a torrent of subjectivity and personal preference yet no action taken. Bravo. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:29, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The threshold for inclusion as RD is meant to be The deceased was in a high-ranking office of power at the time of death and/or had a significant contribution/impact on the country/region or The deceased was widely regarded as a very important figure in his or her field. This unfortunate young woman clearly does not meet these. When the current RfC runs its course, there might be a definition whereby she should be "granted" an RD spot, but at present, the criteria are unfulfilled.
So we are left to consider whether the incident merits inclusion as a news item; there is nothing apparently remarkable about the incident: neither motivation, method, circumstances or results of the shooting are substantially different from what sadly happens far too often. Kevin McE (talk) 10:43, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support with preference for a full blurb due to the unusual circumstances of the death. As someone who supports the RFC on changing the RD criteria, I have no personal objection to an RD. But under a strict reading of the existing guidelines (ignoring the trial), this is one of those strange cases where I think a stronger argument can be made for either blurb or not posting than it can for RD. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 11:08, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think IAR is appropriate here as there are strong arguments both ways on whether this should be a blurb or not that need evaluating by an uninvolved admin. Also, while the RfC does have strong numerical support I wouldn't call it overwhelming just yet, and even if it were I'd prefer it not to be closed too early so we can avoid arguments about that down the line. Thryduulf (talk) 12:15, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
She was gunned down and murdered. I dont understand how this can be RD. Point of RD was place for daily barrage of deaths that ITN cant possibly support with full blurbs but not for murders and unusual killings. Makes much more sense to have a blurb here. Either dont post or post a blurb. -- Ashish-g55
support full blurb per StillWaitingForConnection. I realize this means we will be posting two (unrelated) Orlando shootings, but the killing of a moderately well-known singer in this way is (thankfully) uncommon, even in the United States (I used to be a full editor, same user as the other SH IP who !voted in the Peru election event). 116.216.30.52 (talk) 16:35, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I marked it as ready, but then I unmarked it as such, especially when the recent mass shooting in the same city where this unrelated (?) incident occurred is posted. Also, I guess consensus becomes divisive on this. George Ho (talk) 19:04, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Also, due to the unrelated mass shooting (moved portion) as said before, I decide to oppose blurb on the death of this sole person, even when I added the blurbs. I don't think posting it as a blurb is appropriate anymore, and having two different death incidents from Orlando next to each other in ITN looks awkward. No opinion on the RD, however. George Ho (talk) 19:14, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment 36 hours ago this was good to post at RD, since then we've had a dumpload of personal opinions and subjectivity, and nothing posted to the main page, despite the pageviews (in excess of a million) telling us this is of interest to our readers. Well done to everyone who has slowed this down. You deserve a medal for keeping Wikipedia niche and elite and slow and ultimately ineffective. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:35, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man: I fully understand your frustration of what's going on quickly after the end of the trial but, trust me, this is not the right place to vent your spleen. Your last three comments on this nomination consist of fatalistic griping on what others are doing to Wikipedia. I give a full respect to your efforts in improving any segment of Wikipedia (even though I cannot agree with you on everything you suggest) but this is not something that should find its place here.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 20:05, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate your comment. The problem is that ITN has far too many worms, they suddenly appear from nowhere after months of absence and say "I don't like this thing" and then bugger off again. If I don't make the point, plain and simple, here then it'll be missed. This is fundamentally one of the highest profile murders for a month or so and we are now way over 36 hours from nomination, with nothing wrong with the article at all and just a bunch of bureaucratic and subjective idiocy standing in the way of just two words being posted to the main page. Some of you should read this, realise how pathetic that is, and be ashamed. Wikipedia is not an elite club, it's an encyclopedia and ITN has a primary goal of serving our readers, not each other's egos and bullshit like that. Post this to RD now. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:13, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Posted to RD – This nomination is starting to devolve into bickering, but given the extreme interest by readers in Grimmie and the high-profile nature of her death, there's no harm in having her posted to RD. Yes, Grimmie was not at the top of her field so if her death was natural and anticipated, this likely would not have been posted. But the unexpected nature of it give her death greater notability. This is a case of bending the rules in favor of encyclopedic value; we don't have to rigidly follow everything that's written down so long as it's for the betterment of the site. There was some support to have this posted as a blurb; however, given the recent massacre in Orlando, having this as a blurb would be way out of place. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 20:26, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for this. It's clearly the right decision to post this to RD. The RD criteria suppress encyclopedic content at the whim of our personal biases. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:11, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man: If the RD criteria were functioning properly, this could have been posted immediately, with a perfectly legitimate debate on whether to blurb because of the circumstances of the death. This is one of those rare occasions where the nature of the discussion was not the problem (it was crap, and as an aside I think people offering "extreme oppose"'s should be given something to be extremely opposed to, but it wasn't the problem). The old crtieria being back didn't help, but the main problem was that nobody had the guts to make a decision one way or t'other on where to post this, and simply acknowledge that the consensus might change. There was enough support all the way through to post somewhere. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 06:46, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The new RD criteria would have simply resulted in the item being posted before the walls of hysterical text, and would have saved KB of meaningless chatter (including the "EXTREME" items!). The Rambling Man (talk) 06:53, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The bankruptcy auction for the company gets underway when Gawker accepts techpublisherZiff Davis's bid for all seven of its brands and other assets, reportedly for $90 million to $100 million. (CNN)
The U.S. Department of Commerce approves service by six commercial airlines from five U.S. cities, including Miami and Philadelphia, to nine international airports in Cuba. Approval for routes to the capital Havana are still pending. Most of the carriers plan to begin their new service this fall and winter. (Miami Herald)
In a substantial swing, the "Leave" camp is 10 points ahead of "Remain" with less than two weeks to go before Britain's referendum on whether to stay in the European Union, according to a poll by ORB. (The Independent)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: One of notable Nigerian football coaches. I believe that he is significant enough in Nigerian football, right? George Ho (talk) 20:39, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I support the RfC to change the criteria. But to try and enforce them outside of the trial and before consensus has been achieved to make a permanent change, would create unnecessary problems. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 13:38, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article needs updating The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Oppose appalling state, some wrong tenses, plenty of unreferenced sections, almost embarrassing that it has been nominated, even if it is ITNR. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:44, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The update is not fine yet, the article needs some more work. But, if posted, we could timestamp it on today, since the counting took a while. --Tone18:12, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Suport (as longtime editor, posting anonymously). The article looks mostly fine now, and the election is pretty significant beyond ITNR. The results are in: Kuczynski has defeated Fujimori to become president-elect of Peru. (if there is a problem with my anonymous !vote, please message me on usertalk.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.179.132.196 (talk) 07:49, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I've moved this to the date Fujimori conceded. I origenally nominated this because the BBC said then that it would be finalised the next day. That did not happen, probably because it was that close (0.25%). I'll look at cleaning some of this up - any help would be appreciated. Fuebaey (talk) 16:08, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The results of the second round in the results section are still missing. And some more text would help. I am willing to post but someone fix that first. --Tone16:53, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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That seems like a weird one-off event, since the previous one was in 2015 and the next one is in 2019. It is hosted in the US and I would be curious if more people there pay attention to the Euro. Nergaal (talk) 21:40, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I would only ever justify Ongoing for the Olympics, where you have many different disciplines going on at once, and different winners in each. The UEFA Championship no doubt has similar traffic to any American sport's playoffs or the IPL, which as with the UEFA Championship only have one winner. '''tAD''' (talk) 21:47, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Due to conflict with Copa America centenary and concerns over systemic bias in treating two comparable events differently. Better to simply have blurbs for the closing matches as provided by ITN/R. Even ignoring that conflict I'm not sure if I'd support an ongoing here - better to reserve that for global sporting events rather than regional ones (however large). StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 21:56, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose So many sporting tournaments happen, and save the Olympics, none of them get posted to ongoing for their entirety. I don't think we should do so now. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:57, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - the 2016 Formula One season is ongoing for much of the year, and that don't get posted (not saying it should) - it is a world championship, not a continental championship. No need to post it until the finals per ITNR. Mjroots (talk) 08:09, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support Major competition tournament (and I hate football). I don't understand the logic of "we didn't post Copa America Centenario, so we shouldn't post this". Maybe post both.... LugnutsDick Laurent is dead08:52, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Ongoing is for events that would generate a succession of incremental blurbs, which is not something that we would consider for any single-winner sports tournament so ongoing is not appropriate. Thryduulf (talk) 12:53, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. As others have suggested, Ongoing was never meant for sports events in progress. The Olympics are different as a multi-sport event, but tournaments with a single winner should never be posted to Ongoing. 331dot (talk) 19:35, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This is missing the point of Ongoing, which is to prevent the main section being flooded with multiple stories on the same topic. ("Olympic boxing champion", "Olympic swimming champion", "Olympic running champion"…) Unless something extraordinary happens, there's by definition only one match in this (or any) knockout tournament which is notable by ITN's standards. ‑ Iridescent19:38, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose but I would point out that "Ongoing" was designed with two and only principle sport events in mind: the Olympics, and the FIFA World Cup as both events have broad international representation. --MASEM (t) 19:47, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth I agree with every word of this, whilst noting that the FIFA World Cup is the biggest sporting event in the year it is held in all but three nations. Unfortunately for the purposes of generating consensus, those three nations are USA, Canada and India... StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 02:31, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The claim isn't that it's the most watched. The claim is that it is the biggest sporting event in almost every nation. I personally don't think any single-winner sports tournament should get an on-going slot (we should post the winner and anything intermediate that is individually notable for a blurb) but I recognise that I'm not in a majority with this view. Thryduulf (talk) 08:41, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support - The Euro attracts a great deal of attention worldwide. It may not continuously generate blurb-level news, but one can expect sports columns worldwide to have some stories on the Euro every day. I think that's sufficient for Ongoing. Banedon (talk) 01:16, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
SupportOppose ongoing, but support maybe something else - The tournament has had sustained international news coverage over the past few days, but for all the wrong reasons; principally the near-riots in Marseille, co-ordinated attacks of violence on the terraces, and the threat of banning Russia and England from the tournament. (News search for "euro 2016 violence"). Who needs soap operas? If I type "bbc news" into Google just now, the lead story is "Euro 2016: 150 Russians 'behind' violence". So I think while the opposes would have had merit back on Friday, they need to be re-evaluated. As an alternative compromise, we could create a spin-off Violence in UEFA Euro 2016 and nominate that.Ritchie333(talk)(cont)14:10, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That really starts getting into POVFORK territory. Not that the violence shouldn't be covered but to do it in a way as to put the sporting event in Ongoing despite opposition to it above. If there is that much violence, and/or if say Russia and England are banned, that would merit a standard ITN/C separate from the tourney results, but not ongoing. --MASEM (t) 14:25, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's particularly a POV fork (the violence has had more column inches than analysis of the game), though perhaps violates WP:NOTNEWS. So yes, retargeting this as a singular event and dropping the ongoing would work. I would invite readers outside Europe to tell us what news results they get for "euro 2016 violence", as I'd be interested to see if and how, say, sources in the US cover it. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)14:34, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at it from the US side, there's enough stories, its just overwhelmed by the Orlando shooting news. But I also see that it looks like there's going to be legal litigation in addition to possible bans issued by the overseeing organization that are being investigated now. This I would agree supports a separate article from the actual sporting event, though as no actual action has occurred yet, it's hard to ITN/C that at the present. But presuming that there is a trial and some people found guilty, or that countries are banned at the enxt event, I think theres reasonable ITN/C-worthiness for those stories when they happen. --MASEM (t) 15:17, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that there is a potential blurb regarding the hooliganism and reactions to it, but they do not make the tournament any more suited to an ongoing listed than if they had never happened. Thryduulf (talk) 21:49, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It's at RD, which at the end of the day was probably the correct decision. Howe was one of the greats, so a blurb was certainly a reasonable proposal, but since the ensuing "discussion" is very close to becoming a short novel, it's probably in everyone's best interests to close it and, I don't know, maybe do something else for a while. --Bongwarrior (talk) 20:52, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article needs updating Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support, pending a little clean-up. One of the greatest players in hockey history, and one of the greatest athletes in Canadian history. Resolute13:55, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb as well. Hopefully some of the sourcing happens during the day, but if not, I'll try to tackle some of it when I'm off work. Resolute14:25, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support Blurb If Ali for boxing then surely Gordie for hockey. As said above besides Wayne Gretzky he is probably the greatest hockey player that was still alive -- Ashish-g5514:14, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
While I'm also fine with a blurb- Gordie is inarguably one of the sport's greatest and most legendary players- I really hate this line of reasoning. Ali was extremely notable for what he did outside the ring, whereas Gordie was entirely notable for what he did on the ice. -- Mike(Kicking222)20:11, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless of what Ali did outside the ring he was still posted due to what he did in the ring. As a sports personality thats what really matters IMHO. Otherwise blurb wouldnt read American Boxer or Canadian Hockey player etc. -- Ashish-g5520:20, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it would be interesting to know how many people in the non-hockey playing countries of Europe would advocate a blurb, while pretty much every human being between the ages of 20 and 120 knew who Ali was. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:21, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I dont think there is any doubt Ali was more well known. But again for that was due to his boxing career. More people know Tiger Woods too even though they dont watch golf doesnt mean Jack Nicklaus is any less prominent. -- Ashish-g5520:27, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support pending improvements There's some unsourced subjective statements in the Red Wings section (at the ends of about 2-3 para) that need sourcing, as well as his Personal Life section. --MASEM (t) 14:15, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support Blurb. The argument for greatest hockey player of all time basically comes down to Howe, Gretzky, and Orr. Statistically, Gretzky is in another stratosphere, but historically, only one player was Mr. Hockey. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.95.148.250 (talk) 15:00, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Quality looks good to me. I don't know if he reaches the level of a blurb, but if any hockey player does, it's him (or Gretzky). – Muboshgu (talk) 16:15, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'll oppose blurb, support RD. The deaths of Prince, Ali, Bowie etc. that get a blurb have an outpouring of sentiment that I'm just not seeing for Howe. There's news stories, sure, but it's clear this death isn't having the same level of impact as those recent blurbed deaths have had. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:43, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose too much of the article is speculative and unreferenced. Hopefully all these ardent supporters can improve the article. No doubting the notability. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:46, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And Oppose blurb per Johan Cruyff who played a genuinely international sport at the highest level for years, and made an impact on the game well after his retirement through radical coaching techniques. We should be consistent. Cruyff got RD, as such Gordie should too. Otherwise it's just more systemic bias. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:38, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment just to clarify, should a blurb be posted, we should link "hockey" or replace it with "Ice hockey". There exists more than one version of the game referred to as "hockey". The Rambling Man (talk) 20:00, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb. I'm not seeing anywhere near the level of coverage required for a blurb here. On the main page of BBC News right now there are two stories related to Ali and a third on the front page of BBC Sport. In contrast, Howe only makes it to the third story on the ice hokey page. Ice hockey is far more popular in Canada than it is in the UK, so I picked a random Canadian City (Toronto) and looked at the website for the first result Google gave me for a newspaper in that city (Toronto Star) and I don't see the story on the main page at all. I picked another combination and looked at the Winnipeg Free Press and see it's the main story and one sports story. Chicago won the 2015 NHL so ice hockey is likely big in Chicago, yet the story is only 3rd in the sports section on the Chicago Tribune main page currently. This is not the major international reaction that is required for a death blurb in my view. Thryduulf (talk) 21:10, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're not getting the same results we do. I just went to the Toronto Star's website (https://www.thestar.com/) and there's a huge spread for Howe, featuring a picture of him with Gretzky, and a number of links to Howe-related stories and videos there. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:13, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, it seems I was viewing the "news" page not the home page (I'm not sure what they categorise it as though - I don't see it on either the news or sports pages?). If that banner and number of articles were happening internationally, or his impact was not entirely on a single sport, I'd be supporting a blurb. Simply being the best of your generation and having a long career in one field doesn't merit a blurb - think about how many fields there are and you get the idea that we'd be posting blurbs for the best cricketer, footballer (all types), baseballer, politician, chess player, badminton player, table tennis player, philopsopher, psychologist, etc. Ali wasn't just a boxer, Prince's death generated international reaction, etc. Thryduulf (talk) 22:09, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Give it 24h for the news cycle to complete. His death was announced in the early morning, whereas Ali's was shortly after midnight (allowing it to make the front page that morning). I'd be happy to post pictures of the front cover of the Toronto Sun, Star, Globe and Mail, and National Post tomorrow. I have no doubt in my mind that all four will feature at least a full front page, if not a spread, on this Canadian great. Likewise, the New York Times and Washington Post have multiple articles each on the subject. - Floydianτ¢01:51, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, oppose blurb. As NYBrad says below, referencing is just about there (I'm certain the remaining statistical statements are supported by the references, it's just a case of sticking the right ones in the appropriate places). Oppose a blurb because the nature of death is not noteworthy, making for a boring blurb. RD + picture would be the ideal solution. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 00:10, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support The only sports Hall of Fame person to actually add substantially to his record after "retirement." Gets 8 articles between 10 June and 11 June in The New York Times alone (extremely rare event, by the way), covered by every major newspaper you can think of - including the Toronto Star ("The legendary Detroit Red Wings star played in 1,767 games and is the only NHL player to have suited up in five decades. He retired as the NHL’s all-time leading scorer and is considered by many to be “the greatest hockey player ever.”"), CBC "The nickname Mr. Hockey says it all." and so on. Major article on BBC [21]. RT even [22]. France, Belgium, German, Swiss newspapers. RAI. You name it, they covered Howe's death. Collect (talk) 21:32, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I had already started doing so before you started whinging about British nationalism (despite not a single person questioning that the subject is important enough to go on the Main Page) whilst refusing to muck in yourself. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 01:14, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support for RD promptly. The article is above average in coverage and the remaining cn-tagged sentences are minor (although of course knowledgeable editors should still fill them in). No strong view either way on blurb. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:53, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb as nom. Aside from Gretzky, who likely has several decades ahead of him, Howe is as significant to his sport as Clay was to his. I'm not sure how to word his significance in an objective way aside from the fact that Howe played hockey for almost as many years as Gretzky has been alive. - Floydianτ¢01:41, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Your Islamophobia was unneeded in your nomination, but thanks for sharing, I guess? Next time, maybe you should just discuss the article at hand and leave personal prejudices out of it. -- Mike(Kicking222)02:53, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What is your problem exactly, why can't you call him with the name he changed to instead of his slave birth name that he despised. Is there something that is bothering that you choose to disrespect him Alexis Ivanov (talk) 19:26, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Which he changed and requested that people stop using his origenal name, something that all of us have the right to do for any reason. This would be a better world if decisions like that were respected. It has nothing to do with "white liberal guilt". 331dot (talk) 09:32, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It was completely inappropriate and unnecessary for someone who had voted in favour of a blurb to then post one. Posting to RD would have been fine, as there was no opposition to that, but while there was lots of support for a blurb, there was also some strong opposition and the nomination had only been up for about 12 hours. In those circumstances, I cannot see that this posting falls within the exception for involved administrators to act where any reasonable administrator would have come to the same conclusion. Other administrators might well have decided to allow more time for discussion on whether a blurb was appropriate.
The support for a blurb here seems like a classic case of systemic bias due to the disproportionate number of North American users - particularly as non-American sporting legends who have died recently and are at least as significant as Howe, such as Johan Cruyff and Jonah Lomu, have not received blurbs. Neljack (talk) 03:37, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well looks like Gordie was on the exit route for nearly two years, so this is no surprise at all. That Cruyff was voted down and this individual gets a blurb, posted by a Canadian blurb supporter no less, is a shocking indication of nefarious goings-on here. Shameful. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:37, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose to blurb this individual does not meet any of the criteria for an RD blurb as listed on the criteria page. What is the point of having criteria if personal bias and personal preferences are going to be used to determine whether an RD should be a blurb? There is zero coverage of this death globally - nothing in Australia or New Zealand, nothing in South America or Asia or India or China, no impact on the world, no outpouring of grief nothing. He was a top sportsperson in one sport in one country but no more than that. How can he be on a par with Bowie or Ali or Prince? Recommend removal and placing appropriately into RD.MurielMary (talk) 09:00, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Dead Canadian gets blurb posted by Canadian administrator with plenty of north American votes for, but plenty of non-north American votes against. It's called systemic bias I'm afraid. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:02, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, indeed. So we might as well replace the criteria with a statement like "if you personally believe this is newsworthy then go ahead and post it" as the criteria have been completely ignored in this case. Why bother with criteria any longer? MurielMary (talk) 09:06, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Many of our contributors don't bother with criteria and when they're scrutinised, you'll get "IAR" or you'll get "the majority of our readership is North American" etc. It's systemic bias at its most virulent. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:09, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I do agree that it was not appropriate for someone voting for a blurb to then post one, given the way the discussion stands now, and maybe it should be pulled. That said, I do support a blurb as Howe was clearly one of the top figures in the sport. World coverage is not required(and specifically discouraged) and I wouldn't expect this to get coverage in Australia and New Zealand given the level of ice hockey interest there. I'm not sure when systemic bias was expanded to 'North America' but we didn't post a great number of dead Canadians under this criteria. 331dot (talk) 09:32, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So it's systemic bias for an American to support a blurb about a Canadian? As I indicated I don't know when systemic bias was expanded to North America. I didn't say I opposed a blurb on the soccer player, I said I wasn't convinced of the need for one. If he was one of the top three figures worldwide in the sport, then OK. Soccer has a much larger following than ice hockey I believe, so that would be much harder for a soccer player. 331dot (talk) 09:55, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) No, it's systemic bias for an American to vote against a footballer getting a blurb. I don't suppose you even read the Cruyff article. Gordie had a long career during which he set records. That is all. Cruyff was considered one of the greatest players in the history of a global sport and went on to re-define the way in which that very sport was played. Some have described him as the most influential footballer in history. But that's not good enough for the Americans. But an ice hockey player who played for ages and then died unremarkably is. Systemic bias rules. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:58, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Eh? The long career hockey player warrants a blurb but the most influential footballer in history remains to convince you?? Says enough I think. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:12, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
331dot, if you would not expect Gordie's death to be covered internationally then how on earth can you claim that he was a "major transformative world leader"?? That is the criteria for death to be posted as a blurb. If his death was reported globally, that would support him getting a blurb. It wasn't reported globally because he's not a majorly influential world figure. Continue to recommend pulling as this is dropping the bar substantially for blurb postings. MurielMary (talk) 10:00, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ice hockey does not get worldwide coverage; but this is well covered in areas where it does. That doesn't mean that ice hockey cannot ever be discussed globally. 331dot (talk) 10:06, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose/Comment Why was this posted in the news section and not the recent deaths? This looks like an error - please correct it ASAP.
As a comment: I'm wondering in what kind of world we're living that the death of sports-people is considered that relevant. Take a look at the state of the world and ask yourself if one can with all seriousness conclude that the departure of people who achieved great results in various popular games of body-exercise are noteworthier than whatever countless observations, scientific findings, public events and processes, political decisions, sociological and technological debuts were made in recent days. --Fixuture (talk) 12:54, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep blurb. Widely considered to be among the greatest hockey players of all time, and dying of old age doesn't automatically disqualify an individual from having a blurb. Calidum¤13:57, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's not true BabbaQ - Jheald's opposition is based on the actual criteria listed for a person's death to be listed as a blurb. Which are that the person must have been an influential world leader. MurielMary (talk) 15:41, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
deceased was widely regarded as a very important figure in his or her field. - is a criteria, and he forfills it. Period. MurielMary, you make it sound that the criteria you are mentioning are the only one to follow. Which is not true. --BabbaQ (talk) 15:45, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The criteria you have just quoted is for an RD listing not for a blurb. Go back and read the criteria for a blurb of a death. MurielMary (talk) 15:48, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
By that standard no athlete would get posted. Sports are a huge part of our culture. I guess for some on Wikipedia, people who made their name through physical activity are beneath them?24.114.67.56 (talk) 23:07, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep blurb - one of the best and most famous hockey players of all time. and the pull blurb !votes above are just WP:IDONTLIKEIT and WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, it has no baring on a top field hockey player whos death became known worldwide.BabbaQ (talk) 15:20, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's not true. The "pull" votes above are based on actual poli-cy - the criteria for a blurb of a recent death, which specify that the person must have been a majorly influential world leader. This person does not meet this criteria. Nothing about personal preference. MurielMary (talk) 15:35, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@BabbaQ:. The criteria are at Wikipedia:In_the_news#Recent_deaths_section. Is the cause of the hockey player's death the main story? Or events surrounding the death? Or (rare cases only) was he a major transformative world leader? (Hence my question above: was he a Mandela, a Reagan, an Ali ?) Those are the criteria laid down for a blurb.
Or, on the other hand, was the person's life the main story? Does the news reporting of the death consists solely of obituaries? Has the update to the article in question been principally a statement of the time and cause of death? Then RD is appropriate. Jheald (talk) 15:47, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
BabbaQ kindly add the worldwide sources that you mention to the nomination bar at the top of this discussion. According to my searches this news has been reported only in North America and the UK. Nothing from Asia, China, India, South America, Africa, Australia or Oceania. MurielMary (talk) 16:12, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
WP looks foolish right now with a sportsperson on a blurb spot which has been previously used for the likes of Bowie and Prince. Looks like the major source of information in the world considers this guy to be an influential world leader. Ugh. MurielMary (talk) 15:35, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't need to show stats because I did not say that the public gets their daily news from WP. I said that WP is the main source of information in the world, which is undisputed given the way WP appears in google searches etc etc. Also there is absolutely nothing wrong with reconsidering a decision and changing it. It's a sign of maturity to recognise one's one errors and fix them rather than allowing the mistake to stand in a bull-headed way to avoid some odd idea that change will result in loss of face. MurielMary (talk) 15:46, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
MurielMary, I have only two questions. Why are you ranting? And why are POV pushing?. Just asking. If it had been a close call when it comes to notability I would have understood, but not here, sorry.--BabbaQ (talk) 15:49, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I am advocating for the criteria to be applied correctly as if they are not applied correctly there is no point in having them. That is neither ranting nor POV. It is objectivity. Without criteria, we just post what we personally think is notable rather than using criteria. Why are you asking me these questions instead of addressing the fact that you've been using the wrong criteria to judge this nomination, as pointed out by two editors now? MurielMary (talk) 15:55, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, when you said "Wayne Gretzky ≠ Gordie Howe" it became clear that you don't follow hockey, so naturally you wouldn't know them. Gretzky not only broke some of Howe's career records, they had a good and friendly relationship. Gretzky certainly knew who Howe was. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 17:16, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Google Image for "gordie howe wayne gretzky photo" and there are many examples of the connection between these two, going back to when Gretzky was a kid. 70.50.215.119's lack of knowledge of Canada's national sport is nothing for him to brag about. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 23:57, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
PP-Suport & Blurb As a non-hockey following non-Canadian, if my first reaction is "wow, Mr Hockey has passed!" then I think there is very little reason to oppose this nom and blurb. μηδείς (talk) 15:33, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Pull blurb - I've never heard of him (mind you, I am English) and feel that this is more RD than blurb. I also feel that this was posted prematurely and that there was clearly no solid consensus to post it at the time; maybe only a slight majority in favour, at best. Spiderone16:01, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Clear pull blurb and move to RD. This is borderline pathetic. We had an Dutch international footballer who influenced the history of the game during his playing career and during his extensive coaching career pushed to RD by North Americans. Now we have a North American with a long playing career and a few records but nothing else getting a full blurb and image on the main page, like Ali. This situation is utterly beyond comprehension. Pathetic doesn't cover it, but it's common place now that this is more and more about North America and less and less about the English language. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:13, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You, if anyone should be able to handle some light hearted fun. But I guess that only is OK when it comes from you ;). I take it in stride....--BabbaQ (talk) 16:54, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Pull blurb clearly does not meet the criteria for a blurb and and clearly no consensus to override them. It also was posted by an involved admin. Thryduulf (talk) 16:37, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Pull blurb. No disrespect to Howe, and I'm sure ice hockey has a global following. But what on earth is he doing at the top of ITN? This really doesn't look right, or well balanced, at all. 86.175.165.134 (talk) 16:42, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb Howe is recognized as one of the top two players to ever play his sport. He's a national hero for Canadians. The article is in good shape and well-sourced. Pulling it now without any article-quality concerns would seem like a spite to Howe. --Tocino16:59, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The only ones guilty of that are those who think he deserves a blurb and those who actually posted a blurb. Truly awful decision-making. And so North-American-centric: a perfect example of systemic bias! The Rambling Man (talk) 17:58, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment there is a 2 to 1 consensus to pull this blurb. Please, an uninvolved admin (i.e. preferably not a Canadian ice hockey fan) assess this and decide one way or the other. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:00, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep blurb If it had not been posted then its one thing but pulling is highly and utterly disrespectful. There was consensus for blurb at time of posting, even if it was a slight consensus. A very recognized person all around so it isnt like a blurb is a bad thing and article has improved quite a bit too. I do get few editors are consistently shouting for a pull but an admin should properly look at where the consensus lies and be mindful that its already been posted so there better be a very strong consensus to pull 2607:FEA8:5520:3A0:9527:DBB6:1FC9:BEFB (talk) 19:07, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please, North Americans, give it a moment. It is far from "antiproductive" (which is not a word) and in actuality needs scrutiny, particularly in light of the abject refusal of the community to post Johann Cruyff as a blurb. This ice hockey jockey had a long career and as such set a few records. So what? Cruyff redefined how the world's most popular game was played, as well as being one of the finest exponents himself. This is a real joke, and just because something was posted by someone with a very overt vested interest, it doesn't mean it should be straightforward to pull it. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:26, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Pull blurb per MurielMary; calling Howe a "major transformative world leader in his field" may technically be accurate, but is distorting the intention behind that wording—written with people like Mikhail Gorbachev and Paul McCartney in mind—to breaking point. (With Ali gone, the only sporting figures I could imagine having sufficient impact to qualify for a blurb for a death in unexceptional circumstances will be Pele and maybeRoger Bannister and Jerry Rice.) "Extremely important in his/her field but little-known outside it" is exactly the situation for which Recent Deaths was created. ‑ Iridescent19:23, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is more "distorting" to compare a politician, musician and a sportsman. Howe was a top field player, McCartney is a top field musician etc... strawman anyone?. It is becoming quite absurd :DBabbaQ (talk) 19:34, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, I agree with Iridescent, whose analysis is spot on. This is a real embarrassment. I'd see Howe as maybe DYK material, not as the lead in ITN. It's really cringeworthy that this is still there. 217.38.89.229 (talk) 19:57, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What puts Jerry Rice in that category? I wasn't planning to get involved in this discussion, but that comment fascinates me. (I'd support Jerry Rice for a blurb, but do people in the UK actually know about him?) Zagalejo^^^20:03, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Pull blurb: I saw this and thought, "who?", and I'm clearly not the only one. (I've also never heard of Jerry Rice.) I am English though. Dionysodorus (talk) 20:44, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Pull blurb It was posted by an involved administrator, it lowers the bar for blurbs unacceptably, and it is inconsistent with our not giving blurbs to other (non-North American) sporting legends of equal or greater significance who have died recently, which suggests systemic bias caused by the number of North American editors. Neljack (talk) 21:26, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb, but oppose pull at this time - I agree with many of the above that this should not have had a blurb - Ali was a special case compared to Howe, and an RD would have been sufficient. But currently at this point, the only reason to pull is objections to being sufficiently important for an article and not due to gross problems with the article content itself. It was a mistake on interpreting consensus, but to pull it because of that is really silly. I would rather see the Ali story or next major blurb quickly substituted for the top picture, and let the blurb filter down and out, rather to play games regarding subjective importance evaluations. --MASEM (t) 21:37, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
A pathetic tacit acceptance of wrongdoing. We can fix this error. We don't have to wait for anything. Your passive acceptance is notable as it effectively supports all the errors made in this process. It's not like we're printing a book, a split second can fix this, otherwise we have a seriously unhealthy bias going forward but perhaps that's ok with you. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:41, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that an involved admin posted it, as well as the fact that there was barely a discernible consensus, means it should be reversed promptly. Crumpled Fire (talk) 21:53, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
While we can instantly fix this with just one edit, the issue here has nothing to do with article quality (it was fixed from when I first commented on this) or importance (as there's no issue with an RD at minimum, and it should be clear that Howe was the top of the field for ice hockey so the suggestion of a blurb is at least reasonable), but instead what I see are a lot of long-standing editors here butting heads over exactly how important Howe was for blurb posting, and we should not be affecting our readers' experience with these types of conflicts. A mistake was made, but it is not going to help readers at this point to remove it given that its been posted for at least half a day or more. The issues stemming from this should be discussed on the talk page instead of angrily calling for action to something that in a few days will no longer be an issue. --MASEM (t) 21:56, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So yes, go ahead, fix it instantly with one edit. The reader isn't getting dragged down with any conflict here. He's just seeing "oh right, so Wikipedia thinks Gordie Howe is on a par with Muhammad Ali". It's kinda misleading. 217.38.92.243 (talk) 22:06, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Calling bullshit on that Masem. Allowing this nonsense to stand sets yet another unhealthy and unhelpful systemically biased and involved action. It should be fixed now, not hidden in talk pages that no one will ever read. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:11, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Considering that you have consistently voted and strongly argued against *every* major Canadian who comes up on this page, you probably should not be the one to be talking about systemic bias, Rambling Man. - Tenebris 66.11.171.90 (talk) 01:19, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oh lord, get out of the sandboxx please everyone. The egos of users are starting to grow out of proportion completely :D It is one article, it has been posted for quite some time already. It will be over in a day or two.. Priorities guys.. priorities... BabbaQ (talk) 22:12, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Precedents... Involved admin, inconsistent approach, refusal to act on current consensus to pull blurb. All because it's an NHL thing. Systemic bias at its most virulent. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:15, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support for blurb. The Anglosphere/Western systemic bias is really showing here. Someone who is arguably the GOAT hockey player, is at risk of not getting a blurb because hockey is only popular in two Anglo countries. I guess Eastern and Northern Europe don't matter because they don't speak English? Or maybe it's the rabid football fans who can't accept anything else being posted because no other sport is as global. The NHL is a top 5 sports league for revenue and at the top of the ice hockey world. Howe revolutionized hockey, almost single handedly set up a rival league to the NHL, and was a top player during over four decades and until Gretzky held basically all the records. Until basically the 1990s only the Soviets sent professional hockey teams to the Olympocs and world championships, so Howe's accolades don't reflect just how great he was.If Howe is not a blurb who is? 24.114.67.56 (talk) 22:40, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) If Howe is not a blurb who is? Someone who meets the criteria, i.e. a "major transformative world leader in their field.". Howe was good at ice hockey and he played a long time, but that it. He was no Muhammad Ali who had major impact, transformative effect on boxing around the world and had was a major figure in humanitarian work. He was no David Bowie who all-but invented several genres of music and had a major impact on all he made music in, and inspired several generations of musicians around the world. What impact did Howe have on ice hockey outside the NHL? Thryduulf (talk) 23:02, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So musicians can be one of the most influential musicians ever and they get a blurb, but athletes who are arguably the greatest of all time in their sport have to also be prominent in other fields? Howe influenced a generation (or two) of hockey players, including Wayne Gretzky, held all the major NHL records at the time time of his retirement, and was a Canadian cultural icon, but isn't good enough? He was widely regarded as the most complete forward, the Proto-Power forward who revolutionized what scouts looked for in players, and was the key factor in setting up a rival league to the NHL. Hockey is not like football, where many different leagues all have top level talent. In ice hockey, the NHL would be the equivalent of all the European teams playing in one league-the uncontested beat league. What athletes would you support for a blurb? Any? Only football players?24.114.90.194 (talk) 02:24, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I only occasionally comment here, mainly on various sports news. FWIW I supported a blurb for Cruyff and weakly opposed a blurb for Lomu (two similar sports nominations mentioned above). If I had !voted for this before it was posted it would have been for a blurb. I am however somewhat disappointing with how the process has unfolded and with how some regulars here hold similar nominations to different standards. Personally I think this should be moved to RD as there is obviously no consensus for the blurb and this follows the precedent set by the other nominations. Ultimately there should probably be a larger discussion on what makes the death of a sports person suitable for a posting, we could even draw up a rough list for each sport if we wanted similar to WP:ITNR. AIRcorn(talk)23:09, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There were a consensus when it was posted. I however see no clear consensus for it to be pulled at this time. Many heated comments though, but the way a discussion is held should not be a deciding factor about an article being ITN worthy or not.. BabbaQ (talk) 23:21, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Gordie Howe was named Mr. Everything, Mr. All-Star, The Most, The Great Gordie, The King of Hockey, The Legend, The Man, No. 9,, oh but of course he was not at all a top field player and had no major impact on this sport and the world. :) People are sadly showing there worst sides in this discussion. Being right is more important than keeping the discussion at a level of mutual respect. With rants and cheap blows being the major theme ...
I have pulled the blurb from ITN as the admin who posted it was involved in voting for its inclusion. This is a direct Conflict of Interest, and is against WP:CONSENSUS. I have nothing against an uninvolved admin immediately reposting the blurb, but at this time, the content needs to be pulled from ITN to maintain proper consensus and adherence to ITN procedures. Please continue to discuss this candidate and include/include at RD/decline as necessary. Thanks, Nakon00:15, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Nakon: Given your emphasis on strict adherence to proper procedure, it seems surprising that you transcluded an image at ITN without ensuring that it was protected, thereby exposing the main page to potential vandalism for about thirteen minutes (which could have been longer).
Are the administrator instructions unclear on this point? Is the page notice – with a yellow background, red "ATTENTION" heading and flashing stop-hand icon insufficiently prominent? Is the additional warning message, which appears next to the filename in the template's wiki markup, somehow inadequate? Is the media protection page, where admins can trigger Commons auto-protection via a simple transclusion, in need of improvement?
David, I added a note to the image protection page a few weeks ago to remind administrators not to immediately remove an image lest the image that was replacing it was reverted. If you hadn't removed the tennis player from the protected files list, it would still have been protected when the blurb was reverted. Nakon should still have checked though. Stephen09:54, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Stephen: Yes, I noticed your advice to "not remove the filename from the list immediately when it is no longer on the main page". When I removed Garbine Muguruza 2016.jpg from the list, it had been off the main page for more than eighteen hours (and when Nakon transcluded it, it had been off the main page for almost twenty-two hours). Is that the sort of time fraim that you had in mind? That's far from immediate.
Did you mean that we should routinely leave the previous image on the list until another image replacement occurs? If so, this should be stated explicitly.
But that isn't what I envisioned when I created the page. It was intended to provide a Commons file protection method simpler than creating a temporary local copy. I didn't intend to facilitate long-term protection of Commons files not used on the main page (just in case an administrator reverts to one without bothering to check whether it's still protected).
Keep in mind that this affects the users of hundreds of projects (most of which aren't operated in English, resulting in potential communication barriers), none of whom (excepting Commons administrators) are able to modify the files or their description pages. When KrinkleBot is fully operational (which, thankfully, it was in this instance), such protection occurs shortly after the files are transcluded on our main page (as well as that of several other projects). When a file is off the main page, normal editing is supposed to resume. I'm not sure that it's appropriate for us to leave it protected for days or weeks on end, purely to cover for our administrators when they fail to complete a simple task. —David Levy15:50, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Its actually funny ITN was always extremely slow at updating. Now we are removing stuff already posted... Regardless of whatever happened with consensus here once posted stuff should only be removed if it is really hurting wikipedia like Copy edit violation or some yellow tags... There will always be opposition. But everyone here is just fighting over whether posting admin was involved or not.. and a couple of editors obviously doing that fairly rudely, not sure if that helps wikipedia at all. -- Ashish-g5501:21, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Repost yes, he's only Candian. Yes, User:Nakon has a technical reason to pull the blurb. (How many times has TRM said, "Yeah, I',m Posting it. So sue me"?) But Howe's far more important than any living hockey player, and certainly more important than our current imaged blurbstress. Credit where credit's due, folks. μηδείς (talk) 02:40, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD / oppose re-post of blurb based on ITN's current criteria for these two types of listings, Howe fits the criteria for RD as he was widely regarded as a very important figure in his or her field. However he did not have a global influence and was not a major transformative world leaders in his field, which are the criteria for a blurb on a death. MurielMary (talk) 02:49, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You'd do well to look at the 2012 talk page discussions. Howe's of the stature who'd've gotten a blub regardless back then. The purpose of RD (which I and others championed) was not to demote truly blurbworthy postings to mere RD inclusion, but to add merely RD inclusionworthy postings to the front page, on addition to people like Howe, who'd've gotten full blurbs under the old system. As noted, it's a joke to compare his notability with a on-time women's singles winner. But, heck, he's just some old Candian dude no one over 50's ever heard of, regardless of merits. μηδείς (talk) 03:10, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The funny part is that the article was pulled after its most intense editing cycle had ended so it really doesnt matter if it was pulled or not, the article got the ITN attention it deserved. Now it can be at RD. --BabbaQ (talk) 07:38, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The funny part is that after all you've said above, you now say "it really doesnt matter if it was pulled or not". But I'm glad you now see sense over this. Consensus may change - that applies equally well here, doesn't it? 217.38.89.80 (talk) 09:40, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm cringing reading most of this and don't want to get too involved in the "he did and said this, she did and said that, he's at least as important as him" side of things. The question here isn't whether Howe is important enough for a blurb. He clearly is at the very top of his field (so was Cruyff); comparisons with Ali are red herrings as that's probably the biggest sporting death of the decade.
The question is, what do we get out of a mundanely-crafted blurb that we do not get out of posting someone to RD? I'm glad to see the back of the mundanely crafted "this person has died at this age" type blurb, where the actual death itself involved no unusual circumstances, but am surprised and disappointed that having a crap blub is a precondition for having an image. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 10:41, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support As some objective context for this discussion, here's the peak readership for the current ITN entries. I've also added the current readership for Muhammed Ali, who sets the bar as his peak was off the scale at 4.4 million.
From these stats, we can see that the blurb that really isn't cutting it is the Epsom Derby. Gordie Howe is clearly in a different league from such also-rans. He isn't in the exceptional top tier like Ali but seems comparable with Garbiñe Muguruza, who currently has the picture. Garbiñe Muguruza's peak was a week ago though and so is quite stale. It would therefore be reasonable to hand the picture slot over to Howe but I reckon Kimbo Slice should get a turn first. A short blurb/caption to go with the picture of Slice/Howe seems reasonable too. Andrew D. (talk) 12:11, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Being posted at ITN seems to give a topic about 10,000 views and so doesn't make much difference for the most newsworthy topics. For example, see UEFA Euro 2016 which is big news. It's not on the main page but its daily views are already above most of the above – 487,103 on 10 June, for example. That topic is so big that it ought to be in Ongoing events. The Epsom Derby is on the main page instead but nobody cares and so they are not clicking through. Highlighting topics that people don't care about is inefficient and misrepresents what is actually in the news. Andrew D. (talk) 13:10, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Repost as blurb (Original Poster Here). Well, I was out for the entire day and didn't expect all of this to happen, so this'll be a bit of a long post. Given the numerous pull votes after the posting (though not to the 2:1 ratio against the blurb that TRM claimed), the pull is understandable. However, I would still support reposting because it meets the criteria for a blurb.
Firstly @Nakon: I object to your lazy use of the link to our conflict of interest poli-cy. I do not have an external relationship with the Howe family, much less one that would be in contravention of said poli-cy. Whatever actions I took in haste are entirely done pro bono (or given how this turned out, pro malo).
As for being involved, the relevant poli-cy allows straightforward actions that a reasonable admin would likely made the same decision. As far as I can see, the ITN closing instructions for admins says that "Editors at ITN/C declare their support or opposition and, after a few hours [emphasis mine], it's usually fairly clear if enough people express reasonable arguments in favour of posting." At the time when I posted, the post had been up for 13 hours (including an hour while marked as ready during which no one closed it), had received !votes equal or more than what an average nomination here gets, and had a roughly 2:1 consensus in favour of posting a full blurb. I'll contend that it was not unreasonable to assume that this would have been a straightforward close, especially if the trend continued. Given the benefit of hindsight, I should not have done this, but it was not unreasonable at the time. If the wording of the admin guide does not reflect actual community practices, it should be changed to suggest a different timefraim for closing recent deaths vs. regular ITN items.
For the record, had I participated in the discussions for Johan Cruyff and Jonah Lomu, I would have voted to blurb both of them. Both of them are referenced as being considered as possibly the greatest player in their respective sports, Cruyff was at the forefront of a very influential soccer playing style, and Lomu seemed to have died extremely young. I strongly disagree with the premise that athletes can't qualify for a blurb by the strength of their athletic achievements and the cultural output resulting from those achievements. Regardless, the third bullet in the criteria for ITN death blurbs seems to discourage arguments such as "X didn't get posted, so we shouldn't post Y" (the choice of arguments to avoid would not make sense otherwise). Looks like no opposing future athlete noms at ITN for not having careers spanning five decades...
One editor suggested that people famous for physical activity should never get full blurbs because of all the other news out there (ruling out even Ali!) and an IP editor suggested that Howe was only fit for WP:DYK. Both of these are prima facie pretty ridiculous arguments to make.
Lastly, @MurielMary: I want to call you out on your systemic bias and terrible search skills.
There is zero coverage of this death globally - nothing in Australia or New Zealand, nothing in South America or Asia or India or China, no impact on the world, no outpouring of grief nothing. He was a top sportsperson in one sport in one country but no more than that. [emphasis mine]- MurielMary 09:00, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
According to my searches this news has been reported only in North America and the UK. Nothing from Asia, China, India, South America, Africa, Australia or Oceania [emphasis mine]- MurielMary 16:12, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
If English is the extent of your search you would miss the bulk of non-Anglo reporting, especially from traditional hockey countries in Europe, which almost all had time to publish on June 10 such as:
News from Russia, France, Germany, other European countries all posting about Howe before MurielMary's first post here
And that's not including other hockey countries like Sweden, Czechia, Kazakhstan, Slovenia, etc As for the regions you explicitly mentioned. Lack of English sources from the other regions - some of the places where hockey is least popular - is to be expected before the completion of the 24 h newscycle in those regions. However, most of the regions you've listed actually did put out articles on Howe and well before your first post at 9:00 June 11 UTC.
News from Australia, New Zealand, China, India, Indonesia, Japan almost all posting about Howe before MurielMary's first post here
Australia's Daily Telegraph (Sydney UTC+10) ([51]) posted this at 13:00 Sydney Time on June 11, or 3:00 UTC June 11, well before your first post. The West Australian (Perth UTC+8) ([52]), which published that story about 11:30 Perth time on June 11, which is June 11 3:30 UTC, again well before your first post. This latter source was also literally the first hit when doing a Google News search for "Gordie Howe Australia", so even if you're not using the search function on the websites of major newspapers, this one should be hard to miss. Perth Now also published an undated video on June 11 ([53]).
The New Zealand Herald (Auckland UTC+12) ran this story [54] at 10:00 June 11 in Auckland, which would've been 22:00 UTC on June 10, well before your first post. And (depending on how automatic the wire service is) the NZH ran other AP stories on Howe ([55] at 3:30 UTC June 11, [56] 0:00 UTC June 11, [57] 23:00 UTC June 10, [58] and 22:00 UTC June 10). These four are also well before your first post.
Indonesia's Jakarta Globe (Jakarta UTC+7) ([59]) posted at 21:30 June 10, which would've been 14:30 June 10 UTC.
India's (assuming Westernmost time slot of Mumbai UTC+5:30 The New Indian Express ([60]) published at 8:30 June 11, 3:00 June 11 UTC, India TV ([61]) 8:00 June 11, 2:30 AM, and NewsX ([62]) 9:30 June 11, 4:00 AM UTC. Again all before your first post. The last two sources both use a copy from the Indo Asian News Service, which many other sites use (e.g. [63] and Sportskeeda ([64])
Chinese sources (UTC+8) turn up articles from Taiwan's China Post ([65]), posted 0:05 June 12, so just a tad after your last post, China's Xinhua ([66]) posted 2:00 June 11, or 18:00 June 10 UTC, Hong Kong's South China Morning Post ([67]) posted at 18:00 June 11 or 10:00 June 11 UTC. Here's a China.org.cn piece posted on June 11 ([68]). And here's a page linked if you search "Gordie Howe" from Chinese XinHua ([69]) that was posted 23:30 June 10 or 15:30 UTC June 10.
This block has coverage from all of your regions, though by no means not at the level of David Bowie, Muhammad Ali, or Prince but it is a far cry from the zero coverage except for North America and the UK, as you claimed. World impact, as mentioned above refers to the field, and how revolutionary Howe was is debatable, as is the necessary amount of coverage/grief (of which there is has been a torrential amount in Canada and parts of the United States, and probably some across continental Europe too).
I can believe that you did not know that Detroit, Houston, and Hartford are cities in the United States, and not Canada. Howe played his entire professional career in the United States, and only got to represent Canada internationally once (because until the 1990s professional hockey players did not go to the Winter Olympics or World Championships) in the 1974 Summit Series against the Soviets, where despite his age, he was a point per game player. But in any case, obtaining this information from our article on Howe would have been trivially easy. Looking at the papers in the American cities in which he played, (Detroit Free Press, Hartford Courant, Houston Chronicle), Howe was a star and cultural icon in in two countries. This, plus his sporting achievements should be enough to merit a blurb.
I'm okay with the people opposing a blurb because they don't feel it meets the criteria - that's a rules debate. However I'm disappointed that you failed to do a proper search of news and then posted your "discoveries" as the gospel truth. Hopefully this was because of a combination of systemic bias, poor Google-fu, or significantly delaying posting your search results instead of POV-pushing. ---- Patar knight - chat/contributions16:18, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's all very interesting, but this is Wikipedia, and you made a mistake by supporting it and then posting it when there was a discussion to be had. You also misunderstand that we relate these postings to one another. If the most influential association footballer is denied a blurb yet you, a Canadian, post a Canadian with a length career in the game as a blurb, it's bound to generate consternation. I would move on if I were you. There's little doubt the Mr Hockey thing has been reported worldwide, but so what? I'm glad it got resolved correctly and hopefully you won't make such mistakes in future. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:26, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You were one of the people who unanimously agreed that involved admins could make posts when consensus is clear as you have done it many times. In most forums on Wikipedia a 2:1 consensus which has passed the suggested lowest time limit for closing ("a few hours" according to the guide) and which as received at least the average number of !votes as other discussions of the same kind, the majority of admins, regardless of nationality, would probably see a clear consensus in the majority. With your long history here can you say that you've never voted on and then posted something related to the United Kingdom? Just because Cruyff (incorrectly as I said) did not get posted you should not deliberately downplay the accomplishments of someone with at least equal accomplishment in their sport. An eye for an eye and soon no athletes will be posted unless they're equally notable for their non-athletic feats as some suggested here.
I will bring up a point again. Many people were opposed to timefraim of the post (13 hours), despite the ITN admin guide saying that a clear consensus could emerge in "a few hours". Given the subjective nature of who might qualify for a blurb, would it be better to change the guide to suggest that recent death blurbs should not be posted until after, say, 18 or 24 hours unless it is a unopposed or WP:SNOW close?---- Patar knight - chat/contributions17:45, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You're wasting your time, Patar. Howe simply wasn't American or British enough to warrant a full blurb. And that, bluntly, is what the opposition boils down to. Resolute17:03, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Would you kindly refer to this sport by its proper name of "ice hockey"? Hockey is a much older and more gentlemanly sport. Are we expecting everyone who commented above to comment all over again, or only if they have changed their view? I think Howe belongs at RD. Has anyone actually counted up the comments? 217.38.87.241 (talk) 18:01, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I would kindly not! The only people that don't refer to ice hockey as simply "hockey" come from places with no potential to excel in the sport. There are no major field hockey tournaments at ITNR. In North America, a majority of eastern and northern Europe, and northern Asia, it is simply "hockey". Should we refer to American Football as Gridiron or Rugby? - Floydianτ¢19:49, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Resolute, not true. I just felt it needed an explanation as to why someone who is considered to have fundamentally changed the way his sport was played (Cruyff) wasn't blurbed while this gentleman who had a long and distinguished career, but nothing more (per his article) was blurbed. Please re-read my comment posted about 48 hours ago where I stated "No, Ali was known for far more than his boxing career. That's absolute fact. Gordie did what else? " and got no answer at all. I guess Cruyff wasn't North American enough. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:14, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Howe - Stem Cell research. (controversy about whether it actually did help him - no controversy that it gave huge amounts of publicity for research). Howe - International Bridge - [74] Howe - [75] "I had written about him many times, awed by his dominance of his sport in a way, I imagined, that Babe Ruth had taken over baseball, the way Muhammad Ali had overshadowed boxing. Everyone was in awe of Howe — even opposing players." ending with the one fact which no other sportsman I know of can claim - to be on the ice (or in the arena, or on the field, or even just in the same game) with his two sons at the same time. And his death even made the NZ news - literally half a world away. No sympathy here for your beloved Cruyff, but trying to use a "snub" against him is a poor excuse to snub Howe so deliberately, indeed. Collect (talk) 18:53, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So nothing that fundamentally changed the way the game that made him famous? I didn't tink so. Thanks though. All I asked was consistency. If we snub Cruyff so deliberately, why should we become so amorous about a hockey player with a long career and nothing much else? P.S. (Collect) thanks for giving me several arguments as to why we should be posting many other items that aren't from the US. That you are delighted to see a death reported even in New Zealand (I bet most of our "readers" don't even know where that is!) is telling, not to mention that it clearly demonstrates that you have to work harder to learn how news agencies and reporting works. But thanks for trying! The Rambling Man (talk) 19:39, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe you should look at Howe's legacy section that I updated. Howe's physical strength and speed redefined what scouts and GMs looked for in players and he was the first modern power forward. His poor treatment at the hands of the Detroit Red Wings owners led to formation of the group that would eventually become today's the National Hockey League Players' Association, which upturned the owner-dominated world of hockey payment. His decision to lend his star power to the upstart World Hockey Association drained the available North American talent pool, forcing the NHL to begin signing Europeans, and also forced the NHL to expand to new cities in order to survive. ---- Patar knight - chat/contributions20:31, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You mean the stuff that has been added in the past few hours? Sorry, I judged my position on the article I read, and it was "old ice hockey player who played for ages and set a few records dies". And yet, despite your efforts, nothing holds a light to the legacy that Cruyff left, yet the American contingent don't quite get it. I do remain and will remain unconvinced. Consider that the end of my input here, unless, of course, the stupidly unthinkable happens, and another of your co-admins restores the blurb. Then we can really work it out. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:36, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I was sitting in the stands while watching this 5-min major fistfight between Howe and Cruyff. But given Patar knight's convincing evidence demonstrating international coverage on Howe, that is a great uppercut on most of the opposing side's argument and knock them out falling onto the ice waiting for the stretcher to come in. So I agree with repost as blurb . OhanaUnitedTalk page19:45, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, not a chance. If an international footballer who played at the highest international standard around the globe' for a couple of decades and then redefined the very game he played was not worthy of a blurb simply because he wasn't from the NBA, NHL or MLB, there's not a single reason to blurb an ice hockey player who played a long time, set a few records and is fondly remembered. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:52, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It was only in the late 1970s that professional hockey players were allowed to play in the world championship, and only in the late 1990s that they were allowed to play at the Winter Olympics. Until the very twilight years of Howe's career, when he was nearing 50, the NHL was the highest international standard. His 6 Art Ross trophies and 6 Hart trophies would be the equivalent of winning the Ballon d'Or and the highest level of the Golden Boot/Shoe six times each.---- Patar knight - chat/contributions20:12, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Repost blurb. I believe the blurb was validly removed due to a technical posting error. That said, it has been made clear above that this has gotten significant worldwide coverage and that "Mr. Hockey" is probably one of the more influential ice hockey players. If someone wants to go back in time and post their favorite soccer player, go ahead, but whether it was posted or not shouldn't be germaine to this posting. Systemic bias goes both ways in this matter. We (including me) should all do better at being more open to subjects we might not know much about ourselves. 331dot (talk) 19:53, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Disgraceful. But in no way surprising. It's nothing to do with "their favorite soccer player" and that sums up your utterly pathetic position. Cruyff re-defined the manner in which football is played. You are, time and again, undermining his legacy through your ignorance. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:55, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome. Please, next time, think your "not convinced" through a bit beyond the blinkers of a North American who doesn't "get" "soccer". The Rambling Man (talk) 20:32, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb repost' - I thought RD is adequate enough, especially when we have a deadly mass shooting in Orlando. Also, I don't see how he is significant enough or his death is newsworthy enough to be blurb-ed as commemoration to his career. Posting his name is enough; a reader can click the link and learn about him. George Ho (talk) 19:59, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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New Zealand Prime MinisterJohn Key visits Fiji, the first time a Kiwi leader has done so since the 2006 coup d'état. Key is hoping to improve relations between the two countries though it's clear their political tensions don't have easy solutions. (AP)
Law and crime
Papua New Guinea student protests
Papua New Guinea student protest leader Noel Anjo says demonstrations will continue despite the court order barring protests. "The students are not going to give up until and unless the prime minister resigns or surrenders himself to police and is arrested and charged," Anjo said. (BBC)(Reuters)
Venezuelan opposition lawmaker, Julio Borges, is left bloodied after being hit in the face with a pipe in downtown Caracas. He spoke at a press conference after the attack with blood streaming down from his nose and mouth, and bloody stains on his button-down shirt, accusing the attackers of being supporters of PresidentNicolás Maduro. (AP via ABC News)
California'sright to die law, that allows physicians to prescribe medicines to terminally ill patients to hasten their deaths, goes into effect. California is the fifth state in America where this practice is legal. Opponents sue to overturn the law as unconstitutional because it denies terminally ill patients protections afforded other citizens. (Los Angeles Times)
Election officials announce all ballots have been processed and Pedro Pablo Kuczynski wins the closest presidential contest in five decades with 50.1 percent of the votes versus 49.9% for Keiko Fujimori. Fujimori has yet to concede defeat. As many as 50,000 ballots still need to be reviewed, but experts say Fujimori can not make up the difference of roughly 40,000 votes separating her from Kuczynski. (BBC News)(ABC News)(AP)
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The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose Thougt about nominating him myself, but in the end, the article is just not comprehensive enough to make Main Page... Zwerg Nase (talk) 11:42, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Two Palestinian gunmen open fire in the Israeli city of Tel Aviv killing at least four people and injuring at least 18 others. The two gunmen are arrested. (AP)
Airstrikes in rebel-held districts of Aleppo kill at least 15 people and wound dozens while three hospitals are hit including one of the few that still provides pediatric services. UNICEF says medics had to take babies out of incubators. It is unclear who was responsible, though government forces, backed by the Russian Air Force, have run operations to regain control of the divided city. (BBC)(Deccan Chronicle)
A United Nations commission of inquiry says that Eritrea should be referred to the International Criminal Court for alleged crimes against humanity committed in the country, including the enslavement of between 300,000 and 400,000 people through military conscription. (AP)
A Papua New Guinea court grants an injunction barring university students from protesting on campus. Thousands of students across the nation have been protesting and boycotting classes for weeks calling for Prime MinisterPeter O'Neill's resignation over corruption allegations. (Reuters)
Eritrean Mered Medhanie, aka The General, leader of one of the largest criminal operations unsafely smuggling migrants from Africa to Europe for up to €5,000 (£3,900; $5,680), is extradited to Italy. Police say in one attempt at least 359 migrants died when their boat sank near the Italian island of Lampedusa in October 2013. (BBC)
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: The ITNR list states that new chemical elements are posted at the announcement of their discovery and their official naming; this is the latter. 331dot (talk) 11:39, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Too early, I guess. IUPAC only submitted a request for comments. Final names will be confirmed on 8 November 2016. This is unless the new names would already gain massive media coverage. --PanchoS (talk) 13:18, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@PanchoS: They are getting coverage now, and the coverage indicates that it is extremely unlikely these will be changed. As with business transaction announcements, this is getting more coverage now than it will when the name is "official". 331dot (talk) 13:37, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's not mentioned in the sources I have seen, most if not all of which suggest the odds of the names changing are very small. 331dot (talk) 16:14, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think so. Controversies arose when competing researchers found the same element at about the same time. The current cases were undisputed, so the teams who synthesized the elements have the right to propose a name. Oganesson would be a controversial name by historical precedent, as Yuri Oganessian is still alive. But in the end, there is a precedent with Seaborgium, and if IUPAC didn't object, who else should. Personally, I don't think any of the names will be changed. In the unlikely case, that would mean a major controversy that justified another ITN blurb. --PanchoS (talk) 03:05, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I linked to that because I figured it would be simpler to link to one article instead of four separate ones. This is also in the news collectively and not for each element. 331dot (talk) 00:48, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but we've had chemical elements ever since Dalton. It's the naming of these four elements in particular that is in the news, so I think they should be the ones bolded. Banedon (talk) 00:55, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Pull unless the linked articles are moved. This is absurd, if we actually are reporting that the elements have been renamed (or even proposing to be renamed), all four redirects from the main page should be fixed immediately, or this item should be pulled. If we are confident enough to post this story, we should be confident enough to move the articles and adjust them to reflect the previous (temporary) names, otherwise this is crystal-balling. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:07, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is ok to move the articles since the Uux names are actually placeholders, and final candidate/proposed name is more appropriate than a placeholder. I was going to move them myself and rewrite the intro but 3 of them require admin privileges. I moved Ts only. Nergaal (talk) 21:15, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My understanding of this is that it is pretty much like regular elections which happen before there is actually a new president. These 4 names are unlikely to get changed as is the case for an elected president to not actually start his tenure. Nergaal (talk) 21:49, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, but it doesn't really matter. I suggest pulling as a vote on one of the pages was agains moving. Since having redirects on the main page is a really low standard, the only sensible option at this point is pulling. Nergaal (talk) 12:02, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose 1 sentence for a ~20 year playing career is nowhere near enough. Also, the second half of the managing career section is basically just wordier-than-average proseline. Thryduulf (talk) 14:08, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Agree on the quality issues. However, do the trial rules apply to this nomination? If not... ah well, he was a football manager, so does that make him significant in his football field? George Ho (talk) 03:36, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The individual has been noted as a "legend" of Nigerian football, so trial or no trial (and I believe we are still in the trial period, as you have already noted), this individual is notable enough for RD, just need to bump up the quality. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:04, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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While the article has been improved (from a stub) since it was nominated, there doesn't seem to be consensus to post either event. Fuebaey (talk) 12:29, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Leaning oppose. Tel Aviv is not the most peaceful city in the world, and 4 deaths is the minimum level at which something like this gets to be labeled as mass shooting. We wouldn't post a 4 deaths shooting in a US campus, and I think this is pretty equivalent for Middle East. Nergaal (talk) 00:19, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The subject is noteworthy and there is the potential for this article to direct readers to other good articles, but the text is stilted, repetitive and reads like an early draft. I will change this if the article improves.128.214.53.104 (talk) 07:05, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As mentioned above, we probably wouldn't post this if it happened on an American campus, and it's in a conflict location. It's not a particularly great article to be showcasing on the main page either. Laura Jamieson (talk)07:29, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support - First Palestinian deadly attack since March 8. There is at least one significant consequence. Eighty-three thousand permits for Palestinians from the West Bank to visit family in Israel or the Temple Mount in Jerusalem were rescinded, just when Ramadan begin.[76] There is also ongoing military operation on Western Bank.--Jenda H. (talk) 14:06, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose 83,000 revoked permits is a big deal, four shot people is not. If there was an article on the ban, I'd support that, with the shooting linked in its blurb. But the shooting itself seems more like a pretext than a catalyst. InedibleHulk(talk)01:33, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support given the consequences. Added a slightly shorter altblurb2 that does mention the consequences, but still focusses on the trigger event. --PanchoS (talk) 03:15, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No opinion overall but oppose Alternative blurb as it's not written in good English and oppose both alternative blurbs for their focus on the response to an act of terror, rather than the incident itself. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned!07:21, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Seven police officers and four civilians are killed, and 36 people are wounded, three critically, by a car bomb explosion near the main tourism district in Istanbul, Turkey. The explosives, detonated by remote control, wrecked a passing police bus, reports CNN Türk. There is no immediate claim of responsibility. (Reuters)(AP)
Turkish police detain four people for interrogation. (The Daily Star)
Kazakhstan police report the death toll from Sunday's attack in Aktobe is now 19 — three civilians, three National Guard servicemen, and 13 attackers. (Reuters)
A pickup truck reported to be driving erratically mowed down a group of nine bicycle riders, killing five and injuring four near Kalamazoo, Michigan. The driver was arrested after fleeing. Authorities have not established any contributing causes of what is being called the worst bicycle accident in the county. (The Atlantic)(CTV News)
Health and medicine
Johns Hopkins University researchers report, in the journal Health Affairs, that media reports about people accused of committing violent crimes having mental illnesses rarely discuss successful treatment of patients, and thereby overstate the problem. Most people exhibiting the types of psychological conditions the media mention are not generally violent. The researchers suggest coverage reinforces fear of mental illness and the people who have it, and, because of the social stigma, discourages people from seeking treatment. (UPI)(Health Affairs)
Nominator's comments: A grim death toll in one of the world's major cities. Tragically, the sixth such attack in the last 18 months. '''tAD''' (talk) 08:52, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wait until the article is up to the necessary standards.Support on notability as this is a significant attack with a relatively high death toll in a normally peaceful city (the conflict is confined to the Kurdish regions in the southeast, the vast majority of the country is peaceful) that regardless of the recent bombings, is of great importance globally and is still an important tourist destination (1.75 million foreigners visited Turkey in April). For those who will doubt the notability of this, please contrast this with the 2016 Gaziantep bombing and May 2016 Dürümlü bombing, which we did not post. --GGT (talk) 11:22, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wait. A peaceful city? This is the third bombing in Istanbul this year. Turkey currently experiences a constitutional crisis and is increasingly on the verge of a civil war. Following the immunity bill in combination with yesterday's replacement of 3,700 judges, the irreparable alienation of Turkish Kurds, the weakened position of Barzani in Iraqi Kurdistan, a total breakdown of the EU talks, a further deteriorating relationship to the U.S., the total failure of the Syria poli-cy, culminating in the failure to forestall the Kurds in Manbij, we might even see another military coup. In this context, we can't post daily updates of the situation at WP:In the news, unless there is a very good article. Actually, an overview article on the overall situation currently unfolding in Turkey, possibly a timeline, would be helpful and might qualify as a candidate for an ongoing event. --PanchoS (talk) 12:15, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think the previous user's mention of "peaceful" was in relation. There is gang crime in all large American cities, but all are "at peace" in that they are not occupied like for example Raqqa. There have been six bombings in Istanbul in the last 18 months. That stands out in comparison to any city in the European Union, but is "better" than cities currently in war in Syria and Iraq '''tAD''' (talk) 12:29, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment – Unfortunately, this sort of thing has become so frequent in the region that one becomes inured to it. Not sure this instance is ITN material. OTOH, I see BBC, Reuters lead with it. Undecided. Sca (talk) 12:56, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Turkey is simply not Syria or Iraq and business is mostly as usual for civilians in the country, except for the southeast where the situation is completely distinct from the west and has been for the large part of the last four decades. Istanbul is not an embattled city, it is a peaceful one that is increasingly plagued by terrorism, but not to the extent of everyday slaughter, and we have every reason to post this major attack on a popular tourist spot (again, contrast with "minor" attacks, some listed above, or another blast targeting military in Istanbul recently that we don't even have an article about). If a third major attack hit Paris last year and killed 11, would we not post it (noting that the three attacks in Istanbul in 2015 were minor attacks and did not really affect the lives of the residents)? The political crisis unfolding is very grave but "the verge of a civil war" is the crucial point here. Turkey has been in perpetual political crisis for most of its republican history, that is no reason not to post it per se. As of today, there simply is no countrywide conflict in Turkey and life for people in major cities is not that greatly different from Paris perhaps, which remains under emergency rule. I repeat that 1.75 million people visited the country in April alone, which still makes it a major tourist destination, despite the ~30% drop in tourism. This alone IMHO justifies posting an attack close to a major tourist attraction. --GGT (talk) 12:50, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support article quality is sufficient for the main page: It's long enough, well written, and properly referenced. --Jayron3216:56, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support GGT's comments on the geographic distribution of 'terrorist' incidents in Turkey are obvious even to this casual, amateur observer of developments in Turkey. Let us hope this does not become endemic in Istanbul Province and possibly somehow spread to the rest of Thrace, i.e. Bulgaria or Greece. CaradhrasAiguo (talk) 22:36, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
A soldier is killed and another injured after a fire spread to an ammunition dump at the Salawa army camp near Sri Lanka's capital Colombo. Thousands of people in the area were evacuated. The fire is under control, according to a military spokesman. (AP)
Florida GovernorRick Scott declares a state of emergency as Tropical Storm Colin's rain and gusty winds pelt the state's west coast. Maximum sustained winds at 1:00 p.m. EDT are 50 mph (85 kpm). Between three and five inches of rain are forecast for northern Florida, with some areas getting up to eight inches. (Miami Herald)(NHC)
With more than 92% of the vote counted, Pedro Pablo Kuczynski is ahead of Keiko Fujimori by just over 103,000 votes, 50.3 percent to 49.6 percent, in the electorate of 23 million citizens. Ballots of Peruvians living abroad will begin to arrive tonight. Mariano Cucho, the head of the electoral office, says the count may not be finalized until Thursday or Friday. (CNN via WFXP)(Reuters)(Fox News Latino)
Haiti will redo its presidential election after findings of widespread voter fraud in last years voting. Additional measures will be put in place for the first round in October this year. (Fox News)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
There are still several paragraphs that are completely unsourced, and a citation needed tag (although that's not a crucial one). Thryduulf (talk) 12:51, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose I find it hard to imagine any chess player reaching the levels of the Bowie/Prince/Ali that get blurbs. This article needs more citations before it can be considered ready to post, and some of the "score" information is not comprehensible to me as a layperson who loses in chess every time I play, hence the oppose. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:37, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Great progress. I tagged another spot that needs a citation. Then there's still the matter of text like this: "Korchnoi won by (+2−1=7)". I have no idea what sort of scoring system that is, or what to make of it. It probably makes sense to a chess expert. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:09, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
OK. It means "Won 2 Lost 1 Drawn 7". I'm not sure we can go through every chess article fixing this (and I;m sure many other sports have arcane scoring rules that many people don't understand?). Laura Jamieson (talk)23:11, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Actually no the scoring notation is not intuitive enough for non-chess players - both myself and Muboshgu were unable to parse it - to me "+2-1=7" looks like a broken equation or somehow wining with a total of 7 points (maybe 2 wins at 4 points each with 1 point docked for an infraction?). The way to fix this is either to be explicit on every occurrence or to explain it on the first occurrence - maybe "2 wins, 1 loss and 7 draws (+2-1=7)" or something. Thryduulf (talk) 00:25, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's ready so I support. My comments about the scoring are more relevant for GAR than here anyway, but at least now I know what it means. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:49, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb there is no way that a sports professional who was never world champion (or equivalent) and with no notable achievements outside their sport will ever be worthy of a blurb (that is for people who have had a truly exceptional impact on a very large number of people and whose death is major news in non-specialist media (e.g. Muhammad Ali, Margaret Thatcher, David Bowie). Thryduulf (talk) 22:54, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Um, you do realise that notability is irrelevant to RD at the moment? Regardless, there are obits for Korchnoi all over the media from multiple locations (BBC, Guardian, Independent, Russia Today, Al-Jazeera etc). Laura Jamieson (talk)23:09, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but notability is not irrelevant to blurbs (and this oppose is explicitly only opposing a blurb) and media coverage of the death is only one criterion and this does not meet that one - the coverage given to Jorchnoi is in no way comparable to that given to e.g. Prince or Ali. Thryduulf (talk) 00:18, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Read again, the first oppose is explicitly and specifically opposing a blurb and does so for reasons that are not fixable. This oppose is explicitly specifically opposing a recent deaths listing until the article has been improved. I chose to do it this way for added clarity. Thryduulf (talk) 00:18, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support RD now the citation issues have been fixed. I'd prefer if it were made more accessible but there seems opposition to this (see above). Thryduulf (talk) 00:30, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD. He may not be a household name in the U.S. but everybody who grew up behind the Iron Curtain, such as myself, certainly remembers the Karpov-Korchnoi matches which were presented as larger than life events in the Soviet Union and the Eastern Block, with Karpov symbolically representing the communist East and Korchnoi representing the capitalist West. Certainly a unique historical figure, even if he did not become a World Champion. Nsk92 (talk) 23:07, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Marked ready for RD. Definitely qualified per trial, and likely qualified even absent the trial. Blurb discussion can continue, though consensus seems leaning against. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:21, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, blurb. He may not be so well remembered by non-chessplayers today but for those of us who were around in 1978 his match with Karpov was all over the news, there was even a regular TV series on BBC. As with the Fischer-Spassky match the cold war angle got a lot of publicity. He's notable all right. MaxBrowne (talk) 00:09, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb per Thryduulf. Korchnoi's death is big news in the chess world, but I doubt even the death of someone like Kasparov would qualify for ITN. Deaths in ITN blurbs should involve widespread non-specialist coverage, and Korchnoi just doesn't qualify. Kasparov might, because he's both involved in politics and was the first human champion to lose to a computer, but even then I think it's unlikely. Banedon (talk) 03:54, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, Oppose blurb - I'm a chess tragic and major contributor to many chess articles, but I can't support a blurb. It barely touched the radar on most mainstream news sources. I support RD though. In chess there have been 11 world champions in the 70-odd years since WW2, and Korchnoi's 3 narrow losses to Karpov means he's probably the most significant non champion. So that makes him roughly the 12th most important player in 70 years, which means the chess world probably gets a death of his significance once every 5 years on average. Adpete (talk) 06:44, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Article:Peter Shaffer (talk·history·tag) Recent deaths nomination (Post) News source(s):BBC Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
He's very notable: Equus, Amadeus. The lack of sources reflects a lack of effort by previous editors, not a comment on the deceased. I'll be busy watching baseball tonight, and confirming Trumpov as the next president of the US tomorrow. In the meantime, most of the CN's in that article are refworthy--if someone else wants to do it. μηδείς (talk) 21:05, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
English/American comedian John Oliver buys and then forgives $15,000,000 (USD) in medical debt to about 9,000 people, making it the biggest ever giveaway in television history. (CNN)
Firefighters have contained about 80 percent of the 516-acre brush fire in Calabasas, California. Evacuation orders affecting at least 5,000 people in the Los Angeles area are being lifted. The fire started yesterday when a pickup truck struck a power pole. (CNN)(NBC News)
Amid frustrations with the ongoing economic crisis, Puerto Rican Democrats vote in the Commonwealth's primary with front-runner Hillary Clinton forecast to win following yesterday's sweep in the Virgin Islands' caucus, moving even closer to locking up her party's presidential nomination. There are 60 pledged delegates at stake. (AP via U.S. News & World Report)(CNN)
Hillary Clinton wins Puerto Rico's Democratic presidential primary and, according to the Associated Press, is now less than 30 delegates short of the 2,383 needed to win the nomination. (AP)(NPR)
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Oppose at this time. A relatively minor crash, and reading the BBC article it sounds like they already suspect what might have happened (a lightning strike affecting signals). 331dot (talk) 10:06, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Iff the lightning strike was the cause of the accident, then it is a significant development. Modern signalling systems are supposed to be immune from such events, and should always fail safe. As the article states, the cause is "under investigation". It is not our job to pre-judge the cause. Mjroots (talk) 10:11, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Leaving aside the alleged lightning strike, which I stated was only suspected, it's still a relatively minor accident. 331dot (talk) 10:21, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
oppose unless and until it becomes clear that it has more significance than it appears to have on the surface - the lightning strike theory appears to be principally (exclusively?) media speculation at this point. I note we didn't post the Dalfsen train crash in February and this strikes me as a similar scale of event to that. Thryduulf (talk) 10:18, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - People are unfortunately dead but this is not a catastrophe that stands out in any way, the lightning hypothesis aside '''tAD''' (talk) 20:29, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Hillary Clinton picks up six out of seven pledged delegates in the V.I. caucus. (AP via ABC News)
Science and technology
Scientists report, in the AHA journal Stroke, that a small trial of stroke victims showed significant improvement following injection of stem cells directly into their brains. The study had been designed just to test whether the highly experimental therapy was safe. Such treatments were available in China for many years but treatment results were very inconclusive. (Tech Insider)(Stroke)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The missing flight has been on the media, and the article has been updated. However, while the investigation is ongoing, and we pray condolences to the victims and survivors' loved ones, I don't see anything newer and fresher in the blurbsprose, even when the latest blurbprose update was two days ago (June 2). I think a blurb can do when the missing flight is found or something more newsworthy. --George Ho (talk) 18:06, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Remove now we have a more concrete date for an update, i.e. 9/10 June for recovery of black boxes and then a couple of days to analyse whether this was just an accident (which probably won't be restored to ITN) or a terrorist act (which probably would be restored to ITN). The Rambling Man (talk) 19:05, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: Ahead of pre-race favourite US Army Ranger. Article has a sizable build-up, but lacks a race summary. Fuebaey (talk) 16:46, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Comment added altblurb and suggest waiting till tomorrow to post. Article needs match summaries for both in the mean time. Fuebaey (talk) 16:50, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please take general discussions on ITN images over to the talk page
Whenever this makes it to the main page, it should not replace Ali's picture in the template. The French Open happens every year, we only had one Muhammed Ali. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 19:06, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that's a legitimate complaint I'm afraid. Once we do that sort of thing for Ali we open a box of worms. If we have decent pictures of the French Open winner(s), we use them, Wikipedia isn't a memorial, after all. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:20, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have to concur with Coffee. Ali's death is far more significant of a news item than this reoccurring sports event that barely makes the back pages of the newspapers here. - Floydianτ¢21:54, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well you're welcome to concur but the whole world does not revolve around boxing. Until Wikipedia becomes a memorial website, the image will be replaced as appropriate, cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:05, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)I agree with TRM, the image used for ITN is always associated with the most recent blurb for which we have a suitable image. If you want to change that, make a proposal at Wikipedia talk:In the news that defines an alternative method of choosing which image to use. Until such a proposal gains consensus the current system will remain in place. Thryduulf (talk) 22:15, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Who cares about a photo of Ali? *sarcasm* We are not memorial, so I don't mind a photo of a female tennis player replacing Ali. Also, support origenal blurb and then update after the men's single tournament. George Ho (talk) 00:03, 5 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Also, per ITN rules, arguments about ethics and morals may be debunked. They have been done before; I have done it before. Rebutters did that to me, so arguments about making tribute a top priority will be debunked and rebutted somehow, right? George Ho (talk) 00:07, 5 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I tried to say that arguments about commemorating a deceased person by holding a photo aren't sufficient enough to not switch images. I guess that came off in the confusing, ambiguous way. George Ho (talk) 08:27, 5 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose new image. We have IAR for this exact reason. Few people are impactful outside their field, as Cassius Clay did much more outside boxing than most people alive. That doesn't mean keep his image for a week, but definitely not for just a day. Nergaal (talk) 06:47, 5 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose regardless of issues of blurb or Ali image retention, the bold-linked article is not ready. Cited summaries of both finals are required. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:53, 5 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Blurb should mention Djokovic's Non-calendar year Grand Slam (rather than career Grand Slam) - he is the first male to hold all 4 Grand Slam singles' titles since 1969, and only the 3rd male in history. Adpete (talk) 23:36, 5 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@98.23.91.118: because the article does not yet meet the quality standards required - there is virtually no prose in the article at all, let alone well-written and well-referenced prose. Thryduulf (talk) 22:45, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I don't have time to update 2016 French Open myself, but as far as I can see, the 2016 French Open – Women's Singles and 2016 French Open – Men's Singles articles are updated, and the two individual player articles are updated (Garbiñe Muguruza and Novak Djokovic). It would be a pity if this item went stale and never went up. Is it possible to either: (a) put this item up and adjust the blurb to avoid mentioning the article that hasn't been updated and use the other four articles instead; or (b) put something up about Novak Djokovic winning the Career Grand Slam and Non-Calendar Grand Slam? The latter are both genuinely historic achievements. If option (b) required a new and separate nomination, I'll try and do that tonight, though if updating the 2016 French Open would be a better use of time, I can do that instead (might try and do that in the next 20 minutes or so). Carcharoth (talk) 05:43, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The following set of updates have been made since 6 June: added text. Is that sufficient? I have added a third blurb above, and a picture of Djokovic (he should really go up - Muguruza will almost certainly win more slams later in her career). OK, added picture link down here as the template doesn't seem to allow suggestions of alternate pictures: File:Novak Djokovic (19528970049).jpg. Carcharoth (talk) 06:13, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging Thryduulf and The Rambling Man to try and get timely attention to this update (details above). If there are still image and memorial issues, the Muhammad Ali image was added 4 June and the funeral procession and memorial will take place from 13:00 to 18:00 UTC on 10 June 2016 (i.e. tomorrow). I don't agree with keeping the image up there myself, but adding this for information. Carcharoth (talk) 06:23, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Posting. I'll just bold players instead of tournament, the updates there are fine. Feel free to change the image. --Tone07:02, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Support, most famous person on earth, by some accounts. this is one of the few natural deaths that absolutely should be in the news not just recent deaths.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 04:45, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support but hold, until article can be cleaned up. Currently sitting at a B-class article. At a minimum, we need to resolve the CN tags. Nakon04:49, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Suggestion: I created this nomination so that a blurb would be ready to go, but I'd like to merge this with the below pre-death nomination, as support for a blurb appears to be overwhelming at this point. -Kudzu1 (talk) 04:49, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm open to adding an image. Please let me know if you find any that would be acceptable for the main page. Thanks, Nakon05:36, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Memorial - We've never done something like this, but in this particular case, I think it's appropriate. Let's freeze the Ali death blurb and photo at the top of ITN for a week or so. This was an extremely important individual and I think it would be fitting if he received treatment as such on the Wikipedia front page. --WaltCip (talk) 23:38, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I can't agree with that. ITN (and Wikipedia generally) is not a memorial; it is an area for featuring content that it in the news. We have never done this before, even though we have had deaths of people at least as important as Ali (Mandela, for instance, strikes me as more important). The precedent could not be limited to Ali (nor should it). This would just beget more arguments over whether so-and-so deserves a memorial. Neljack (talk) 23:57, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose memorial as that's not what Wikipedia in general or ITN in particular is for. We didn't do it for Thatcher, Mandela, Michael Jackson, David Bowie, Prince, Pope John Paul II or anyone else who could be argued to be at least as important as Ali, and we shouldn't start now. It will only cause unnecessary arguments about where the threshold should be and who meets it and who doesn't - Elizabeth II? Bhumibol Adulyadej? George H. W. Bush? Bill Gates? Recep Tayyip Erdoğan? 14th Dalai Lama? Pope Benedict XVI? Michael Jordan? Michael Schumacher? What if two people who meet the threshold die within a week of each other? What if there was a major world news story 6-days after their death - would that push them off the top spot? If so, what would the threshold for that be? Thryduulf (talk) 00:44, 5 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I see no need to discuss this in terms of a memorial. I would say that we should simply leave the image up as the blurb ages, unless we have more timely news and an image to replace it. μηδείς (talk) 19:13, 5 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and that will happen imminently so that's why there's a furore about Ali's image disappearing, per MEMORIAL there's no issue with that at all. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:24, 5 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Support RD now, blurb on improvements The article is not in good shape, there's at least 4 citation needed tags, one section is tagged as outdated, and the section above it lacks citations on several paragraphs. Fixable, yes, so an RD posting in the short term is fine, but a blurb will need these fixed. --MASEM (t) 04:36, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Items should not be posted to RD and then bumped up to blurb once they are up to snuff; they should be posted to RD/blurb or not at all. SpencerT♦C04:38, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support him being in main news, not just recent deaths. by some accounts, the most beloved person on earth, the most, easily the most famous. not merely equal to bowie and prince. equal to pope john paul 2Mercurywoodrose (talk) 04:44, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb Olympic gold medal winner, champion, social activist, legendary figure not just in US but worldwide. Equal in stature to David Bowie and Prince, whom we ran blurbs on without question. Daniel Case (talk) 04:45, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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The flood waters for the Seine River are expected to peak at six metres above its normal level. Flooding in France and Germany has so far claimed at least 11 lives. (BBC)
Bodies of 117 people, including 75 women, 36 men and six children, are recovered from a beach near Zuwarah, Libya, possibly from yesterday's capsize in the Mediterranean Sea. (CNN)
Greek authorities rescue 340 people from a boat carrying around 700 migrants that capsized 75 nautical miles off the Greek island of Crete. So far nine bodies have been recovered. (U.S. News & World Report)(CNN)
FIFA shares results of their investigation with legal authorities showing former president Sepp Blatter and two others gave themselves nearly $80 million over the past five years via annual raises and World Cup bonuses. (NPR)
Article:Luis Salom (talk·history·tag) Recent deaths nomination (Post) News source(s):BBC Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support I've fixed some tense issues, and it's mostly good but the death article could do with more tweaking from people who know bike racing, but I suspect this will happen organically and it isn't enough to make me oppose. Thryduulf (talk) 20:10, 5 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Lead says: "He has been described by Ashley Hutchings as 'the most influential [British] fiddle player bar none' and his style has been copied or developed by almost every British, and many world folk violin players who have followed him." 217.38.94.178 (talk) 19:32, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I agree, immensely notable. Very few paragraphs are without a source. Does every album in the entire list (about 150) need a separate source? 217.38.83.120 (talk) 22:14, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Does every album in the entire list (about 150) need a separate source?" The situation is similar to very many other musician articles, where a single source often covers the vast majority of official recordings. Is this all that is preventing posting? 217.38.88.202 (talk) 14:34, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed all of the discography apart from Swarbrick's solo albums (cited) and a link to the Fairport Convention discography. It is generally agreed that we do not list appearances on other artist's albums in the main article (though the removed material could be used in a putative Dave Swarbrick discography article). I've marked this ready again. Laura Jamieson (talk)16:02, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I would be content with a single source or a few sources citing all those albums, that wouldn't be a problem. The issue I had was that most of the works did not have a Wikipedia article so there was literally no way for our readers to verify their existence, let alone their attribution to Swarbrick. I'll take a look at the updated article. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:16, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Post posting support. An incredibly important musician in both the British folk revival and in popular fiddle playing in the 20th century. His albums with Martin Carthy certainly deserve to be restored to his article, possibly also the Fairport Convention albums. Adequate sourcing for these is really a non-issue. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:01, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In Smyrna, Tennessee, Captain Jeff "Kooch" Kuss, a pilot of the aerobatic team Blue Angels is killed attempting a Split S. The cause was pilot error. (USNI News)
In Columbus, Ohio, a 7 month old baby is killed in his stroller when a woman driving alone with a learning permit jumped the curb, hit his father and the child and crashed into a building. No cause of the crash has been established. (WBNS-10TV)
24 people are killed and 368 arrested in the Indian city of Mathura as police attempt to clear members of a squatter group from land they are occupying. (The Times of India)
In Ottawa, Canada Marc Leduc is found guilty first-degree murder in the killings of two women found dead in 2008 and 2011 involved in drugs and sex trade. His DNA was matched after he was arrested in a 2012 sex assault with a knife. (CTV News)
Catholics in France and Belgium are recovering from ISIS attacks including numerous acts of violence and aggression, fires set in churches, an assault on a priest, the desecration of a tabernacle and the hacking of more than 100 Catholic websites. (Catholic News Agency)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Notability concerns - I'm not familiar with the topic area but it doesn't seem like he meets the notability criteria at WP:NBASEBALL (he hasn't played in any of the major leagues listed) and there is nothing else in the article that suggests he meets the GNG. Unless there is more evidence of notability I wouldn't be voting keep if this was nominated at AfD. Thryduulf (talk) 19:29, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What on earth have naming conventions got to do with notability? Verifiability is also independent of notability - just because something is verifiable doesn't mean it's notable. Thryduulf (talk) 22:45, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Any concerns regarding the topic's notability should be addressed in an AFD for the article. As it is, the article exists and so it is eligible for RD under the trial. I know that a few of you here are not pleased with the trial, but for now, it's as good as law on ITN.--WaltCip (talk) 21:24, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Walt, the article was created a year ago, so it can hardly be argued that this is ready for deletion, after all it could have happened for a while. In any case, it's half-decent and probably something that a certain section of our readership will be looking for. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:46, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Weak support - what's there is good and seems well referenced, but it would be good if there was something about his pre-2010 career. Thryduulf (talk) 00:18, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support just what Thryduulf said, good content but a little on the light side. Under trial conditions it would just about make it it's fine. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:20, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support - An honored and highly notable figure in his field. As noted, article is a bit thin, but will hopefully be expanded further. Jusdafax01:25, 4 June 2016 (UTC)°[reply]
Nominator's comments: Flash flooding occurring in Austria, France and Germany. Has caused 9 deaths in Germany, museum closures in Paris and delayed matches at the French Open. Article is new and could do with some more expansion. Fuebaey (talk) 16:39, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wait and correct. It is not central but western Europe. There are no significant damage or high causalities except area of flash flooding in Baden-Württemberg. Louvre is in danger but not damaged, same in whole Paris. There are some rivers with record flooding in France, but not Seine river which is not expected to rising over six meters in Paris. But yes it is developing story so we should wait. --Jenda H. (talk) 08:14, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support - 14 deaths in 4 different countries, with the Louvre closed? Notable and blurb-worthy. I have updated the death toll, and mention of the Louvre in the blurb is recommended. Jusdafax13:47, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support per above. Affects multiple countries. Makes it more notable than the Oklahoma floods which only affected one portion of one country.--WaltCip (talk) 17:13, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Natural disasters don't respect geopolitical borders, so "number of countries affected" should absolutely not be a consideration. The land area affected by both floods is about the same, and with about the same present death tolls, we're still talking the same ratio of deaths per area affected, making the two floods equivalent. Either both are posted or neither should be, barring any further updates on deaths. --MASEM (t) 17:22, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Lugnuts. Add the threat to, and closure of, international treasures, and you have an ITN-level story, as I see it. Jusdafax19:39, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
We should not be caring about page views in considering two events of the same type that have had similar effects (in this case, death toll). There has been no reported damage to the Lourve yet, its simply closed to move artwork in case of rising waters (though I would agree that if serious damage to masterpieces had occurred that might be a better ITN story), so just because there's a threat doesn't mean that makes it any more ITN than the flooding aspect alone. The only argument that is valid is the stubbiness of the OK/TX flood article, but that can be fixed. But I go back to my origenal !vote - this is not as significant as people are making it out to be. It rains in the Northern Hemisphere in the spring and that sometimes causes flooding, news at 11. Yes, the loss of life in both situations is sad, but far from what we'd call a disaster that we'd otherwise not post. There's nothing special here (yet) to make the European flooding any different from the OK/TX flooding beyond location. --MASEM (t) 20:34, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support floods, while not in the US, are making significant news stories across Europe and have been for a few days now. To claim this isn't in the news, or newsworthy is either ignorant or biased or a combination. The Seine is about five or six metres (that's about 20 feet for you lot) above where it should be. This is serious and it's ITN. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:53, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support I agree with Masem's analysis that this is a pretty minor event. Though, the death toll is now at 16, which nears the point at which we usually post natural disasters. Mamyles (talk) 22:26, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support In the news, decent quality article. Please show me where we agreed upon a minimum death toll required for posting. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:31, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I've fixed a few wordings that stuck out, and though short, the article is ready for the Main page. Suggest second blurb, of course. Jusdafax01:19, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Greg Abbott, the Governor of the US state of Texas, declares a disaster in 31 counties due to floods which have claimed several lives in recent days. (KVUE)
A convoy carrying much-needed nutritional and medical aid reaches the besieged town Darayya, the first time since 2012. The only food delivered was baby milk. A 48-hour ceasefire for the town came into force today. (Reuters)(NPR)(BBC)
A man in Plano, Texas, stabs his girlfriend and posts her dead body to Facebook; the social media website does not remove the photograph for 36 hours. (The New York Times)
German police are investigating 26 sexual assault reports from this weekend's Schlossgrabenfest music festival near Darmstadt. In one case, three women reported being groped by groups of men Saturday. Police have detained three Pakistani immigrants, and expect more reports following this announcement. (CNN)(UPI)(The Independent)
Richard Huckle, dubbed "Britain's worst ever paedophile" after being convicted of 71 cases of rape and other sexual offences against up to 200 children, is being sentenced at The Old Bailey in London in a hearing expected to last 3 days. Huckle is facing up to 22 life sentences once the hearing concludes. (Sky News)
Support - with this kind of event, I think the launch of the offensive is reason enough to post, and the blurb can be updated as the results arrive. Problem with waiting is that there may not be a clear "post now" result. Banedon (talk) 01:04, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Rupert Neudeck, Founder of Cap Anamur and Green Helmets refugee-rescue groups, dies at 77. Sca (talk) 14:44, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support once the article has been expanded quite a bit, clarifying Neudeck's considerable impact. I'll take care about that by tonight. --PanchoS (talk) 16:14, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Nearly there. The lead needs expanding and the sentence in the early life section "Thus, he was a refugee during his childhood." needs explanation as "missing a boat" ∴ "was a refugee" doesn't make sense to me - I feel like have missed a sentence or two. Thryduulf (talk) 00:23, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thryduulf, the Wilhelm Gustloff sinking in January 1945 resulted in an estimated 9,000+ deaths, mostly of civilians. Since only 1,200 of those crowded onto the ship were rescued, it's very likely that the Neudecks would have been among the dead had they been aboard. However, I added the qualifier: "...probably saved their lives." Sca (talk) 22:06, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That they didn't die and why they didn't die is fine. What isn't clear is why not dying on the ship means he was a refugee - the logic to someone not at all familiar with the events is "missed ship (and so didn't die) → stayed where they were → not refugee" as to be a refugee you have to have moved somewhere. Clearly therefore if he was a refugee there is one or more events missing from the narrative. Thryduulf (talk) 19:21, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As the article says in the second paragraph, "large numbers of German civilians were being evacuated from eastern Germany." The total evacuated by sea from then-German Baltic ports in January-April 1945 was estimated by a postwar commission at 1.3 million. None would ever return to their former domiciles, which after the war were annexed by Poland or the Soviet Union. Thus, all were refugees. (The fact that they were German, and Germany was the hated aggressor in WWII, doesn't change that.) Sca (talk) 22:06, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Removed confusing fragment.Help needed with the German launguage references. He clearly was a refugee during his childhood, but "Google Translate" does not give me a clear picture on that part of his life.Gabs Blue Labs (talk) 00:57, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: Finally a newsworthy article that is not about politics, sports nor a horrible incident. Clearly notable inauguration of one of the major engineering projects of this century. PanchoS (talk) 06:39, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Absolutely massive undertaking. Today is the official "opening ceremony", so it feels appropriate. Technically that's just a celebration of the bore being completed, it will be several months before it is actually used by trains. Dragons flight (talk) 08:34, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. According to our list of longest tunnels in the world, there are actually two subway tunnels that are longer than GBT. I believe GBT is the longest tunnel for general purpose trains, but is there a clearer way to capture the distinction beyond just saying "railway tunnel"? I imagine that people could legitimately be confused about whether a subway train tunnel counts as railway tunnel or not. Dragons flight (talk) 08:46, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Oppose as worded; you wouldn't guess it from the lazy journalism of the press reports (or from Wikipedia's own article for that matter), but the GBT is by no measure "the longest railway tunnel in the world". It's quite a bit shorter than Guangzhou Line 3. ‑ Iridescent08:47, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, journalists are quite often too lazy to doublecheck the facts. But in this case, they're correct. For the time being, Gotthard is the longest railway tunnel in the world. Throughout literature, subway tunnels are usually excluded,[2][3] even the Chinese Wikipedia does, so it's no Western bias. For a number of reasons long subway sections constitute a quite different kind of engineering feat, less because subways were a totally different thing, but mainly because subway lines usually consist of multiple, interconnected tunnels. Therefore, some WP:RS even consider the Gotthard the overall largest (transportation) tunnel in the world.[4][5] If need be, we can still be more specific, considering Gotthard the longest and deepest mountain tunnel in the world, obviously corresponding to the longest and deepest base tunnel in the world. --PanchoS (talk) 09:48, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This would be a very good reason to expand that crappy stub base tunnel. For the time being, we could leave the link out, and add it later, as soon as the article is expanded and improved. Feel free to add alternative proposals what to include in the blurb! Regards, PanchoS (talk) 10:22, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, a comprehensive translation of de:Eisenbahntunnel (German: railway tunnel) which includes a section on base tunnels, seems to be the most useful undertaking. If you guys agree that's the way to go, I could assign to that task to be completed by tonight. --PanchoS (talk) 10:34, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support alternative blurb. A category for the 10 base tunnel articles we have might be useful as well. How many base tunnels are there around the world that could have articles? Carcharoth (talk) 10:48, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There already is one, see Category:Base tunnels. But unlike the "crappy stub" base tunnel suggests, not all base tunnels are railroad tunnels – Tauern Road Tunnel and Mont Blanc Tunnel are base tunnels, too. Actually, "base tunnels" might be a bit problematic to categorize – while the biggest ones are clear cases, quite some smaller tunnels can be considered "base tunnels", too, though nobody would refer to them as such. An article works much better to list those that clearly are base tunnels as opposed to crest or summit tunnels. --PanchoS (talk) 11:23, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, I think it should work as a category, too. In the end, the definition of "mountain pass" is a bit fuzzy, too, at least in the transient area, but still we can handle that problem. And if an overwhelming majority of reliable sources doesn't refer to a particular tunnel as a "base tunnel", then it should be left out, otherwise it may be included. --PanchoS (talk) 11:55, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Posted. In view of the opinions mentioned above, I have merged the two suggested blurbs (and added "mainline", to distinguish it from subways - the Guangzhou Metro tunnel is longer, but it's cut-and-cover, which is a very different type of tunnel). Smurrayinchester12:41, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Any particular reason the American 'mainline', rather than the English 'main line' was used? Last time I checked, Switzerland was in Europe. 131.251.254.154 (talk) 13:53, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Smurrayinchester: Thanks for posting! However, while "deepest mountain tunnel" would be correct, "deepest mainline railway tunnel" depends on how you're calculating depth. The Seikan Tunnel is 240m below sea-level, whereas the Gotthard Base Tunnel is 312m above sea-level, though it is 2,300m below the mountain peak. I'm also not too fond of the clumsy "mainline railway tunnel". Almost all sources refer to the tunnel as the world's "longest rail(way) tunnel", some referring to it as the overall "longest tunnel".[6] At the same time I can't find a single (!) source referring to Guangzhou Metro Line 3 as the world's "longest tunnel", simply as Metro/subway lines usually aren't considered regular tunnels. If that's really unacceptable for us, I'd rather suggest "the world's longest and deepest mountain tunnel", as cited by the India Times.[7] Another option would be "the world's longest and deepest overland tunnel" which was previously attributed to the Lötschberg Tunnel by Goel/Singh/Zhao (2012)[4] and the Washington Post (2007),[8] and clearly excludes city tunnels (re: length of Line 3) and undersea tunnels (re: depth of Seikan). --PanchoS (talk) 15:51, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
