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Is this really what people supported in the G13 RfC?

Legacypac has tagged more than 1000 drafts for CSD just since the RfC above closed yesterday. I noticed this when he notified me of a speedy deletion for a draft I started, Draft:The Octopus Frontier. The subject is a work by Richard Brautigan. I had created drafts for most of his works and slowly -- very slowly, in this case, clearly, but why does it matter? -- worked on them a bit and moved them to mainspace. It's been a while since I've thought about it, though, and now I have no recollection of how much, if anything I had in that draft because it was deleted just a few minutes after the tag was placed (i.e. deleted before I could revisit it or have a chance to remove the tag). So now it's deleted. It may have been nearly empty or may have had a source or two and a basic lead sentence. It certainly didn't violate any content policies. Why is Wikipedia better without it? So now I have to go to the deleting admin, RickinBaltimore, and ask for a refund of a draft. Regardless of how much usable content there was, I'm in the position of having to plead for what is, practically by definition, work I'm not particularly proud of (or else it would be in mainspace) but which I would nonetheless like to recover.

Then I received another message from Legacypac about Draft:Women's rights in 2013. This time I got to it in time to remove the tag. It's a draft because it's a huge subject, but it's 15k with 29 references (and precedent for the article format). This made it clear to me that he is mindlessly not taking proper care in tagging and not using the sort of judgment many supporters of the RfC seemed to assure us of -- that just because something hasn't been edited in a while, that doesn't mean it should be deleted.

Is this really what people wanted when they supported the RfC above?

To be clear, this is the CSD talk page and not ANI. I'm not trying to report Legacypac, who is fully operating within the rules. My problem is less with him than with this change allowing speedy deletion of more than it should.

Honestly, if we're going to have a drafts space, then if a draft doesn't violate content policies and was created by a still-active editor, it's a purely negative act to tag it for deletion. Leave a note/reminder by all means, but don't delete it and act as though deletion is harmless because you can ask for undeletion. I mean, there's barely a point to deleting drafts at all that don't violate content policies, but I'm down with the vague principle of WP:NOTWEBHOST meaning some drafts should go, despite it having little-to-no practical impact. But if the editor is still editing pages actively, it shouldn't be speediable. Leave a reminder, move it to userspace, etc. It's common for people to beat the "editor retention" drum while complaining about things they don't like, but I have a hard time seeing the good in deleting the work of active editors when it does no harm at all to leave it be. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 03:58, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm in the minority, though, in viewing drafts this way. Scanning the CSD log, I'll ping some other active editors who have had pages recently tagged for speedy (a sample taken from the bluelinks) and may be able to give me a reality check: @Captain Assassin!, Gryllida, Karthikndr, Fixuture, FruitMonkey, Gazal world, Greenbangalore, TakuyaMurata, Satdeep Gill, Evolution and evolvability, Kharkiv07, Megalibrarygirl, Doncram, Pieceofmetalwork, Ghoul flesh, Jith12, Zanimum, and Elinruby: ... and apologies if I've accidentally pinged someone whose draft was tagged for another reason other than age. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 03:58, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• For abandoned drafts I'd propose at least one-week warning in advance before the deletion. Making it a one-month warning maybe could also work well. --Gryllida (talk) 04:10, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• I think it certainly wouldn't hurt to have a bit more warning. I've no real issue with older drafts being deleted, but I see no harm in having warnings 2-months and 1-week before it happens to give people opportunity to remove the tag and reset the timer if appropriate. I don't really do bot programming, but I'd have thought that something like that would be possible. T.Shafee(Evo&Evo)^talk 05:07, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• There was an RFC that ran for an entire month and had about 90 participants. It was very clear and very well advertised. If you want a one week warning, we can go back to MfDing pages one at a time but that was rarely producing any interest in actually saving pages. Legacypac (talk) 05:14, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• The problem is the "rarely" cases. Good pages are rarely tagged, good pages are rarely deleted, this rarely negatively impacts experienced editors. On a large scale, rare occurrences still happen too often. If there were no other way, I would understand, but why is it too much to ask to say "if there's any viable content [NOTWEBHOST isn't about viable encyclopedia articles] or it was created by an editor with more than 100 edits who has edited in the last 90 days [any arbitrary standard would be better than none], leave a reminder instead of deleting"? If you have the Xtools gadget installed, you don't even need to go into the history. It adds two clicks and a few seconds to each review -- and to me it's clear that a few more seconds would be good. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:56, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• Yes, that's what was supported. There will be a temporary backlog as draftspace is cleared out of the thousands (literally) of no-hope drafts that have been sticking around for years, then it will become more normal. This doesn't mean admins shouldn't check each page and determine whether postponing G13 is appropriate. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 05:19, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• There is a bot that will be nominating for G13 deletion. An "advantage" is it gives a 1 month warning. A disadvantage is it can't tell good from bad and will nominate everything - including complete pages that could be published. I'm sending potentially useful page to AfC for either immediate publishing or to give the creator and other interested parties another 6 months to fix it up.

The 5500 non-AFC Drafts that existed a week ago are almost all garbage, and inspite of my efforts the number if abandoned drafts actually rose week over week last week :( Please help me wrangle the problem into a reasonable situation here User:MusikBot/StaleDrafts/Report instead of second guessing my judgement based on a pages you barely remember but that must have been great because you started it. Also see WP:REFUND it's easy to get things restored. Legacypac (talk) 05:27, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

You personally reviewed 1000 stale drafts and tagged only the appropriate ones? Color me impressed. Jclemens (talk) 06:00, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• Just to be clear, I see a 1 month warning to be a fair compromise to the issues I raise in this thread. I missed talk of that bot elsewhere, it seems. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:58, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) @Gryllida: (Wrong editor) @Rhododendrites: Your presumption of bad faith is a personal attack. I suggest you strike it or better yet close this section and try again with a neutrally phrased question. Hasteur (talk) 06:09, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

@Legacypac: There is no bot currently that deals with Non-AFC drafts. AFC drafts can have a bot nominate on them because the author is told at the outset that at 6 months unedited the page is fair game. I could write a bot that reminds editors that their page is eligible for deletion under G13, but that's effectively the same notice that is given when nomination happens. Can't run ahead of the 6 month deadline because there's no categorization structure and I can't programiticly scan to find pages that have past the 5 month mark. Hasteur (talk) 06:04, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

At large, I'm going to assume good faith that Legacypac is looking at each page and giving at least a cursory google search to see if the subject has a chance. I know that I am when considering several of "Pre-Production" films that I have speedied since the change to CSD took effect. Hasteur (talk) 06:04, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

yes I must be over 1000 pages G13'd now. I'm checking them one by one too. I'm working with the advantage of having already been working the report for several months, so I'd looked at thousands of the drafts already, mentally noting what I'd wait to G13 when that became available. I'm sure there is the odd draft I've sought deletion on someone else would keep, and some I've sent to AfC that will die rejected, but my accuracy is very high. User:Legacypac/CSD_log I should really find another hobby but it's just too hot right now to be running around doing active stuff. Legacypac (talk) 06:11, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Also see we just had the Editor active vs Abandoned page discussion right above this discussion. Legacypac (talk) 06:35, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• You could move your draft to your own userspace and it wouldn't be deleted right? Pieceofmetalwork (talk) 06:57, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
• Experienced editors who know what they are doing should keep their drafts in userspace. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:06, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

And experienced editors should also monitor that any drafts in their user space or articles of interest to them in main space are not being moved into draft space. Thincat (talk) 08:08, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Hmmm. My

I've had Draft:The_Octopus_Frontier refunded (the page that started this thread). It's very short, no references and no content beyond the work's name and author and basic publication details. It's basically an idea for an article with no info that anyone wanting to write up the topic would not already know or woukd find immediately. Legacypac (talk) 07:15, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• "Is this really what people wanted when they supported the RfC above?" - emphatically Yes. It was patently obvious that there would be a new backlog of abandoned non-AfC drafts that would need to be processed and I think we are obliged to Legacypac for diving into the workload and handling the drafts conscientiously. Having had your draft Draft:The_Octopus_Frontier refunded Rhododendrites you've now (intentionally or not) set it up as the poster child for the new policy. Will you improve it in accord with the fuss you've made (proving REFUND works), or will it quietly die another G13 death in 6 months (proving it WAS abandoned)? Indeed, if this G13 deletion has spurred you into finishing up the article, then it's been beneficial in every respect. Cabayi (talk) 08:49, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
• Cabayi has hit the nail on the head.Winged Blades of Godric^{On leave} 08:59, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Excuse me, set it up as the poster child for the new policy - this thread is about two articles that were tagged, Draft:The Octopus Frontier and Draft:Women's rights in 2013. The former was deleted with no practical notice to me, so I wasn't sure what I would now have to request to be refunded. Based on the tag of the other, it's entirely unclear to me whether it would've had usable content (i.e. if the latter could be tagged, I'm uncomfortable not recalling what was in the other). As I said when I opened this thread, the shame is that it was simply deleted and now I have to put myself in the position of making a request to have it refunded while knowing it's probably not something I would be proud of. Indeed, it is not. But again, this is not just about that draft -- it's about the process of learning about deletion, making a determination about whether it's worth saving, etc. before it's deleted. This is not a test of the REFUND process or of some notification process such that it matters when/what I do with it at this point. Speedy deletion is simply a dysfunctional mechanism for persuasion/motivation when it can easily be avoided. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:23, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• FAILURE Examples such as Draft:Women's rights in 2013 are good in confirming that draft space is an experiment which has failed. It has now become a battleground where games are played rather than being a useful aid in building the encyclopedia. I already counsel new editors to avoid AfC and draft space and will emphasise this even more now that the G13 purge has started. I understand the outrage of the editors who have been using it in good faith but counsel them to move their work into mainspace ASAP. If a topic has any merit then it's easy to create a stub for it. I often do this or, if I'm pressed for time, I just create a {{R with possibilities}} such as Women in aviation. Such stubs and redirects plant the seed in mainspace where everyone can find it and nuture it. Some may try to stamp on such seedlings but our existing processes such as AfD ensure that this is done with oversight and some community engagement. Draft space is an unnecessary sideshow which should be shut down per WP:CREEP and KISS. Andrew D. (talk) 09:29, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

I could point out hundreds (if not thousands) that points out that this was a resounding SUCCESS.Sans the hyperbole which accounted for much of what you have written above, I find it gravely concerning that an experienced editor(who is involved in several editathons etc.) is asking and councelling people to put all their stuff (which in a majority of cases is garbage)into main-space. And no-body (barring the same old faces) are outraged.Cheers:)Winged Blades of Godric^{On leave} 11:34, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, and if you just delete the drafts namespace you would likely have far more "successes" than failures, too. The problem is that it's disproportionate in its impact. In one case you're removing a thousand pages with little-or-no viable content that nobody will ever see, created by people who don't otherwise contribute to Wikipedia. In the other, you're lumping into that group drafts with good content and drafts started by people who have been here for 10 years, make a whole lot of edits that aren't worthless, regularly come back to articles sometimes years later, etc. I sort of wish I had noticed this with examples that weren't my own so it wouldn't seem like I'm being a diva. To be clear, this thread will not end with me putting a retirement banner on my user page for a few teeth-gnashing weeks. :) My worry is the people who are simply discouraged by this and don't say anything about it. And again, it's all easily avoidable with minor adjustments to the criterion. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:32, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• Personally I don't have a problem with any of the proposals here as long as the creator/main editor of the draft has fair notice before it is deleted. The drafts of mine that were deleted were abandonded and were correctly deleted. However, I would still appreciate it if I was notified before it was deleted. Jith12 (talk) 13:55, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

This is pretty much my feeling on the matter. Elinruby (talk) 22:21, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• Deleting whole topic areas like the lists of historical monuments in Nepal (add insult to injury by doing that right before WLM) without looking at why they were in draft space in the first place, is also a big failure of the process. Agathoclea (talk) 14:08, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
• I don't think the people deleting these drafts are paying any attention at all to the contents. Draft:Exampledraft was tagged and deleted under G13 two days ago. Anyone who even glanced at it would have noticed that it was an example page intended to illustrate what drafts looks like rather than an actual draft. If this really is about getting rid of "no-hope" drafts then I suggest actually reading the draft before you nominate it for deletion. Hut 8.5 14:23, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Well, some of us tried to warn the community that this is most likely going to happen. Too bad we turned out to be right. Regards SoWhy 14:39, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
• I am had a draft in that pile. It was used to collaborate on an alternate version of a contentious article, where absolutely all edits were being challenged. We established that we mostly agreed on a version, which was then used for show and tell. I sent him a message saying I believe we were done with it but yanno it would have been courteous to ask me, a long-time and very active editor, before speedy deleting it. Perhaps the other editor deleted the text and it was blank - if so I have no issue. Otherwise, well... I nonetheless would have preferred to be asked. I had another one that was dormant but still being used, which fortunately someone did ask me about. Speedy delete does not make me feel like embarking on the major and much-needed edit I was going to do today to History of Honduras...Bottom line, storage is cheap. Why are we doing this? This is why we're losing editors, Wikipedia. Elinruby (talk) 15:58, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Alternative versions of contentious articles, probably WP:POVFORKs, are attribution hazards. They can be useful for short term sandboxing, but long term, old and unused, out of sync with the proper mainspace article, these pages should be deleted. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 16:21, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

I disagree. You apparently haven't had much to do with determined trolls, but they can stop all progress on given articles, and in some cases appear to be getting paid to do so. It is useful sometimes with large changes to have a place to talk about what a large re-organization/different layout would look like and this is in fact frequently done. Again, I am not crying about this particular draft (fake news), as I think we were done with it, but when I had another draft come up under this process (Shooting of James Boyd) I did appreciate being asked about it because yes, it is still an ongoing issue even if it's not currently being worked on. I am not talking about creating a POV fork for crying out loud -- I am talking about a good-faith attempt to rewrite by several editors, without ankle-biters claiming that the New York Times or the Washington Post is "fake news", for example. Yes, the resulting agreed-to text would need to be merged back into the main article, but attempts to reach consensus may be greatly impeded by the sort of editor who is capable of taking the same sentence to three different noticeboards. (saw this on SOPA; also see the history of Ugg boot). They're out there and they seem to be getting paid by the hour. That said, this is twice now that a proposal which affects me hasn't come to my attention until people are nuking things from orbit. Personally I think some people just like to delete things, and the BLP excuse is just that. It is often applied in a very biased way; I have seen the same editor call BLP for Hillary Clinton but refuse to do so for Donald Trump. I mean, I can't stand the man either but we need to be scrupulously even-handed and dispassionate, or stop trying to cover politics at all. Should I be watching the administrators' noticeboard I guess? Meanwhile, I am here to tell you that this does discourage editors; I myself never translate anything anymore because of the X2 and the quaint idea that it's bad if I didn't use a quill pen to write it. And then when I speak up, I am told that I am hurting Wikipedia. Every. Single. Time. I think it would be nice if we all tried to row in the same direction, personally. Elinruby (talk) 22:12, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Elinruby, you are very hard to follow. You appear to originally complain about deletion of abandoned article fork-sandboxes, but then go on to say a whole lot of things unrelated to expanded G13. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:27, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

• I don't understand why Legacypac is allowed to use the words "spam", "garbage" and "junk" to refer to Wikipedia.  My watchlist shows 19 edits today just to this one page.  Unscintillating (talk) 01:17, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
• Why are these G13 deletions already taking place?  Editors have put their work in the incubator believing it would be retained there subject to collaborative editing.  Since the expectation before this recent decision was that if any limit was imposed, edits would be required at least annually, the six-month term is a surprise that came out of AfC.  Unscintillating (talk) 01:17, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes. There was very clear consensus for G13 without delays. If something you want to work on gets deleted, follow the WP:REFUND instructions. Please read this thread and the G13 RFC before posting incorrect information about what was approved. Legacypac (talk) 01:23, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

How is it that you've never learned how to indent your talk page replies?  Unscintillating (talk) 02:22, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Have you got through the last RFC? That's sorta a bolt from the blue! Many people have some well-valid complaints but yours' stand on an entirely new axis--deeming our actions to be non-policy based.Winged Blades of Godric^{On leave} 16:11, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

• Comment -- it is what it is; the RfC was quite clear. There's always WP:REFUND. K.e.coffman (talk) 06:02, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
• The RfC might have been clear but it opened the door to a massive WP:CIR issue and a lot of admin time wasted in (hopefully) checking, deleting, then someone else again checking and undeleting. Draft:List of Monuments in Rautahat, Nepal for example went wrong on three different levels. A prodsytyle solution would have caused a lot less issues. Agathoclea (talk) 14:40, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Agathoclea What particular competence issue are you raising? Seems like you're attacking Legacypac for nominating a page that was at the time of the nomination eligible for G13. It would be better to work the most eligible G13s (oldest unedited), but that's a personal decision. Also if this was going to be important to Wikipedia:Wiki Loves Monuments, in the near future, perhaps they could have done a little effort to verify that all the pages were ready to go and weren't in danger of being deleted soon. Hasteur (talk) 14:52, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
    • The point being that at the time of nomination it was not eligible for G13. So apart from not recognizing from the page history that this was part of a special series, it was tagged without qualifying and checking. It was deleted as R3 obviously without checking either. My point with this not an individual tager (although he has had some outstanding whoppers) or admin (who was most likely overwhelmed by the masses of pages to delete), but the process being geared in deleting drafts in an extreme hurry. That extreme hurry is uncalled for, as harmful drafts would have been deleted long ago and waiting after 6 month for at least another week, would not make any additional workload and harm, but that week could have given interested parties (eg wikiprojects) time to make a decision if they wanted to intervene and a lot of effort saved at WP:REFUND. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Agathoclea (talk • contribs) 15:05, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
    • Could someone tell me again why Wikipedia is better off without this draft, and is better for having a process in which we scold contributing editors who complain about semi-automated deletion tagging and scold organizers of Wikimedia events for not conforming to an arbitrary deadline? And don't tell me it's because of the thousands of good examples because if you're unwilling to change the G13 wording, you want all six-month-old drafts to qualify. [I'm replying inline, but intend the collective 'you']. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 03:49, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Speedy deletion is intended to reduce the time spent on deletion discussions for pages or media with no practical chance of surviving discussion.

How is this line from the top of WP:CSD reconcilable with deletion of drafts that do have a practical chance of surviving discussion?

Administrators should take care not to speedy delete pages or media except in the most obvious cases.

It seems important to highlight here (again) that the majority of these deletions are uncontroversial (obvious), but there's a persistent unwillingness to make even the smallest concessions or adjustments to the wording that would reign in the current blunt instrument that makes absolutely no distinctions based on the quality of content. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 03:49, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

That statement is pretty unfair to the editors and Admins that postpone or even fix and promote hundreds of stale drafts with potential found in the backlog. Instead of complaining about how other are handling stale drafts, join in and show us how it should be done. Time spend actually patroling abandoned drafts may change your viewpoint. Here's the link [[[User:MusikBot/StaleDrafts/Report]] Legacypac (talk) 05:05, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

That is not an encouraging response to see in a thread that shows examples of some quite obviously bad decisions. Editing/gnoming any particular task is voluntary, but competence is required of those that choose to take up any particular task. Pointing out someone's errors is not "complaining." VQuakr (talk) 05:15, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Can, not must. G13, similar to most of the criteria is not mandatory. If an editor is nominating an obviously good draft for G13 rather than tagging or ignoring it, trout the editor. If an admin is deleting obviously good drafts based on a G13 tag rather than declining, trout the admin. As discussed above, this is already in line with our speedy deletion policy.

This is basic stuff that anyone doing adminning or draft patrolling should pick up rapidly with experience, but if there is too much confusion (as opposed to just teething troubles on a significant CSD criterion change), how about a supporting info page making the nuance more explicit? VQuakr (talk) 05:09, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

The example that started this thread looked like this 10+ months unedited, no sources or indication of why this book might be worthy of an article. [1]. I stand by my tag as correct, and the delete was correct. Had I not tagged it may have sat for years. Legacypac (talk) 05:38, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

I know it's convenient to focus on the one I said up front might not have had any real content in it, but two articles started this thread (the other being Draft:Women's rights in 2013, which had many sources and every indication it might be worthy of an article). The point of bringing up the other one was because it was deleted without notice, thus I couldn't even make the determination of whether it should be saved (and also, I'm yet to hear from anyone why Wikipedia is better without it other than WP:VAGUEWAVEs to NOTWEBHOST). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:35, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Without going into too much detail. The sources were for individual women's rights events that happened to take place in 2013, not sources for the 'Women's rights in 2013' - you can make a 'year' article very easily on almost any topic by providing sources for events that happened in that year, it does not evidence that that year is particularly special or worthy of note in the subject. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:59, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Automatic R2

I started a discussion a few days ago about using MediaWiki:Move-redirect-text and Lua to automatically transclude {{db-r2}} on moves from mainspace to the namespaces the criteria applies to. Your input is appreciated. – Train2104 (t • c) 23:24, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Template for promising drafts

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I see the writing on the wall, so I created the following template. Thoughts, anyone? This may be more effective at saving worthwhile drafts than postponement, because truly worthy drafts shouldn't have to be re-postponed over and over again. (And prior postponement may not be apparent to the reviewing admin.) I suppose whether this sort of template helps or harms depends on whether editors act reasonably on both sides (applying to drafts that actually look good; respecting template where it appears to have been applied in good faith). Calliopejen1 (talk) 22:55, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Template:Promising draft

An editor has indicated that this is a promising draft and requests that it not be speedy-deleted as WP:G13 and instead be nominated at WP:MFD.

What I already do is make an AfC comment about why the draft has promise. That has the advantages over this of being specific and descriptive, as well as it gets auto removed when/if the page is ever promoted. It does require the AFCH script, though you could do it manually I suppose. If you really are too lazy to set up and use the script, make your template post just like the script so the comment gets striped out automatically. This post is far enough off topic for the RfC that I've changed the header size to primary (2 ==). Legacypac (talk) 23:34, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Unfortunately, comments about notability do not seem to be effective to withstand deletion. See Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Gavin Selerie, poet and writer, Draft:Gender inequality in Honduras, Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/General Philip Willbeck, Draft:George Triggs, Draft:Gesell Developmental Schedules. Also, editors may not have the time to be "specific and descriptive" considering the volume of affected pages... Calliopejen1 (talk) 23:49, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Also, I do have the script, but was unaware that I could use it for non-AFC pages. It might make sense to modify the script so that it can produce prominent warnings like this one, AFC or no. Calliopejen1 (talk) 23:50, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

I would suggest adding a date parameter so someone could quickly see if the tag itself was stale. Adding a parameter that requests userfication instead of deletion could be helpful as well. The text of the tag is off since there would be no policy-based rationale for the nomination if the only issues were age and notability of the underlying subject. How about, "An editor has indicated that this is a promising draft and requests that it not be immediately speedy-deleted under criterion G13." VQuakr (talk) 00:32, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

How does this tag become stale? If a draft is promising now, it won't become less promising later, no? As for the text of the tag, I don't see the problem. What do you mean there would be no policy-based rationale? Could you not nominate something and say it qualifies for G13 but another editor has indicated it shows promise so you want further input before the article is deleted? Also, why would we userfy a promising draft instead of keeping it in a communal area where it could be improved by other editors? Calliopejen1 (talk) 03:30, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

If an editor slaps the "promising" template on a bunch of drafts just because, we'd expect them to actually do something about those drafts. If 6 to 12 months later, there hasn't been a single edit to move these drafts forward people should be able to question if the promising was really that promising? Also the promising template seems to be sticky, so I'm less than enthusiastic about the first mover advantage and the excessive bureaucracy we will have to go through because of the template. Hasteur (talk) 04:23, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't see why we expect the editor who applied the tag to do the improvement. Anyone else in the community could do so as well. This isn't much unlike the prod template -- if someone removes it, it goes to a discussion. Here, if someone applies the tag, the article goes to discussion. This seems like a fair process to ensure we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. And as I have been going through the stale draft report, I see a fair number of worthwhile drafts that could be improved in the future and certainly are doing no harm by sticking around. Calliopejen1 (talk) 22:42, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

The AFCH comment script includes your name and date, which solves some of the concerns above.

Some promising draft do lose value completely. There are a number of abandoned Drafts about upcoming movies and events or just random topics where by time I find them the movie is released or event happened or someone independently picked up the topic and a much better mainspace article exists already. Good G13 cases if there is nothing worth merging from the three unreferenced sentences in an Abandoned Draft. Draftspace COPIES of mainspace pages are another issue.

Userfying a promising draft seems pointless as it just moves something from one abandoned box to another place its even less likely to be found and improved. If you want to improve something actively just improve the Draft. That keeps it from going stale. Abandoned userspace drafts with promise should be moved to Draft space, and that function is even built into the AFCH script.

Classification systems sound great in theory and I've tried several but if you start sorting you find there is lots of junk and find that rarely does anyone pick up any of the hundreds of AFC deferred or rejected for seemingly fixable issues. Legacypac (talk) 04:44, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

The underlying assumption on userfication is that it would go to the still-active editor that tagged the draft, not the user space of a long-retired original creator of the draft. VQuakr (talk) 04:56, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

maybe I'm missing something. Why would you userfy a Draft to work on it? Just edit it in place till ready for mainspace. As long as you add a period or delete a space it's safe from G13 for another 6 months. Legacypac (talk) 05:01, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

By the way, if no one is working on AFCs that were rejected for fixable issues, maybe we should be moving more of these to mainspace so that they do get fixed. Calliopejen1 (talk) 22:44, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

There is a general lack of editors who work best to clean up others' messes. I term us "curationists", as opposed to anywhere on the inclusionist or deletionist spectrum: We just want things imoproved, and it would be nice if everyone else would stop fighting about deleting stuff and just fix the fixable stuff we already have... Jclemens (talk) 07:27, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

I have long agreed, but it seems that the only people willing to shine light on the better stuff are motivated by the finality of deletion being applied to the hopeless. If the expanded G13 results in some people reviewing the oldest drafts, unilaterally tossing things they consider worthless, and occasionally touching/tagging/promoting other stuff, the net result is good. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:36, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

@SmokeyJoe: well said. VQuakr (talk) 19:02, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

I think something like this would need an edit filter to restrict the adding of these tags to new page reviewers or something, otherwise people would just start creating drafts with the tag already in place, or using socks to add the tag, or something. Yeryry (talk) 20:52, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support Though it should be noted that I generally oppose G13 anyway. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 04:55, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support, but not the " instead be nominated at WP:MFD" part. Any page tagged G13 exempt should presumably be suitable for improvement for promotion to mainspace, the tagger should be of the opinion that the page will never need deletion. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:36, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose Tagging with an AFCH comment is superior solution that adds more info and does not require memorizing a new template code. We already have a big collection of AfC drafts declined for potentially fixable reasons like needing footnotes or needing to be merged Category:Declined_AfC_submissions and usually over 500 pages in Category:AfC_postponed_G13 (many are again pending G13 at the moment). Interested editors should work those piles of drafts. Legacypac (talk) 21:03, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

• The AfC comments for whatever reason (likely because they are not sufficiently prominent) are not successful at safeguarding worthwhile drafts against thoughtless deletion. No need for users to learn new code if this is added to the AFC script. Calliopejen1 (talk) 06:19, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support - I have promised to oppose any change affecting G13 until G13 is deprecated. I feel this is an important step in that direction. What I've been saying all along is that drafts should be systematically reviewed and the unsuitable drafts, the ones which meet already existing deletion criteria related to content, should be deleted without waiting six months; the remainder do no harm just because an arbitrary countdown expires. Use and acceptance of this template effectively guarantees a review process of some sort, and so I support. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:23, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support Removing drive-by {{AFC submission}} and {{G13}} should be enough, but this may prevent repeat CSDs. Will support abolishing G13 too. Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:10, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support--Good idea.Except that if it is affixed by the creator of the draft, it could not be counted.Winged Blades of Godric^{On leave} 08:56, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

CSD criteria for articles with malware intent

Sometimes articles are being created with contents that may pass initial tests (i.e. CSD criteria do not apply in their strictest sense), however the intention of the article can be assumed as malicious, e.g. by inclusion of external links or citations that lead to virus/malware infected external websites. In the past, I have normally removed those links and evaluated the articles on their merits - and possibly sent for PROD or AfD. However, I feel that such potential "trap pages" should be dealt with quicker in line with attack pages or an extended definition of a hoax. I therefore suggest that G3 or G10 be extended to include articles that may have the intention of causing "technical harm" and should come with the courtesy blanking we have with G10 as precaution for other users. _pseudonym Jake Brockman ^talk 16:27, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't see no reason to expand anything. Pages clearly created with the sole purpose of "trapping" users already fit G3 as vandalism and if the article itself is useful but the links are not, removing the links is a better alternative than deletion, isn't it? Regards SoWhy 17:16, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, the more I think about it, the more I believe this may warrant a separate category. Strictly speaking, the hoax and vandalism categories are concerned with disruption of Wikipedia contents, spreading misinformation, adding commercial spam links etc. which I would broadly categorise as "undermining trust in and usefulness of wikipedia". I'd value this of minimal (if any) commercial gain for the person making those edits. The next level I would categorise as "inflicting commercial damage" which I'd subdivide in G12 which may have a negative financial impact from copyright/licensing on the Wikipedia Foundation. The motivation of the editor being unclear - either as genuine mistake or to actively cause commercial damage. G10 is the escalation as commercial damage on Wikimedia Foundation can be assumed as intentional by creating libellous contents (which may also have criminal implication). Creating articles that contain links which are part of distribution of malware (which in some jurisdictions is a criminal offence, too) for whatever reason is a further escalation as it may physically damage users hardware, infringe their privacy and, if ransomeware is distributed, may finance criminal activities through blackmail. So, just bunching up such activity with mere hoaxes does not give the potential severity of the edit sufficient weight in the response. The template warnings are rather soft. And if hoax in conjunction with manual removal of links is used, there may not be a sufficient record of the activity either. Warnings and therefore the awareness of the community increases from G3 to G12 and finally G10. Malware links should - at least - carry a warning with the severity of a G10 given its quality. Yet, G10 definitions revolve around libel, but do not give wiggle room to include potential cybercrime as "off label use". _pseudonym Jake Brockman ^talk 18:09, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Jake, do you have any examples where this would have applied? How often do we get articles that would fit this? To me this fits under vandalism. It is a direct attempt to compromise the integrity of a Wikipedia article. Either the whole article is designed to get someone to go to a site to download malware (which would make the article a G3 vandalism) or specific links in an article are malware links and then those links can be removed and revision deleted. I don't see a need to create something new. ~ GB fan 18:30, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

I need to dig a little deeper. There were a few cases I remember in June and July. I had two with malware in the last couple of weeks, but they were G11 at the same time, so not a perfect example: What Can Wordpress Plugins Do For You and Dream Theatre Pvt. Ltd.. However, in any case I'd consider G11 the minor issue, as such the CSD log is misrepresented. Overall I probably have one NPP case where my web shield lights up every other week. Granted, this probably is in the single-digit percentage of all the NPP I do. _pseudonym Jake Brockman ^talk 21:33, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Dream Theatre Pvt. Ltd. was simple spam, it doesn't look like there were any links to malware in it. You tagged it as WP:G11. What Can Wordpress Plugins Do For You was spam also. Your original PROD concern was simply WP:NOTHOWTO. I didn't click on the links in the article but none looked overly suspicious. None of your edits to either article even hinted at the possibility of MALWARE, why would an admin make any comment about MALWARE if the editors tagging an article don't mention it? ~ GB fan 01:08, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

The wordpress article definitely had inline links to compromised websites which I removed before PRODing. I think the Dream Theatre article was similar (definitely have a dreamtheatre domain in my web shield log that day). However, you are actually making my point. A specific category would be useful to a) alert other users of the specific dangers of the site (even blanking it so people won't google whatever it is and get onto the compromised site from search results) and b) alert admins to take special care and urgency when reviewing and deleting such pages. Obviously, other categories may still apply (such as G11, G3), but the malicious intent should additionally get logged as a reportable category and by including the link as we do with copyvio. _pseudonym Jake Brockman ^talk 08:07, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

If there were links to compromised websites that you removed, why didn't you put that into the edit summary when you removed them? Why didn't you use that as part of the PROD rationale rather than just "WP:NOTHOWTO"? Why do we need a new criterion for something that doesn't happen very often and it is currently possible to document it? ~ GB fan 11:28, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

A comment in the edit summary will not protect the general public as users don't generally look there. A page curtain would. A note in PROD might protect the public, but it would not highlight the case on an Admin's dashboard, where I think it should be as it can be assumed that those cased may not be isolated. It would help quantify the issue more effectively and be more reactive in the identification of patterns and proactive in prevention. _pseudonym Jake Brockman ^talk 15:56, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Malware gets attached to respectable sites often temporarily so I think the links should be deleted but not the whole article. Atlantic306 (talk) 18:17, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose. This situation, in which we have malware intent in a page that otherwise doesn't qualify for speedy deletion, really seems rather rare, and it's somewhat subjective too. Getting rid of malware is definitely "improving or maintaining Wikipedia", so if you run into a malware-intent page that doesn't meet a single speedy deletion criterion, ask an admin privately (or leave a note at WP:AN), or simply tag the page with {{db-because|WP:IAR; page is attempting to spread malware}}. You'd be really hard-pressed to find an admin who would reject such a request for any reason other than "you misunderstood; this isn't really malware". Nyttend (talk) 06:12, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

How is attempting to spread malware not intentionally making abusive edits to Wikipedia? So why resort to IAR when there is a perfectly useful G3 already in existence? Regards SoWhy 07:01, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Once again, I'm addressing a situation "in which we have malware intent in a page that otherwise doesn't qualify for speedy deletion". Nyttend (talk) 11:15, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Oppose. If it's really intended for this purpose, it's vandalism. However, it's probably nearly impossible to know, unless the page has nothing but these problematic external links; a better solution would be to assume good faith on the part of the user who inserted these links, and respond by simply removing those links and responding to the rest of the article by other current policies. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 07:48, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Want to rewrite a deleted page

My Wiki page was deleted for "advertising" and I get that. I want to rewrite/reword it so it won't be like an advertisement. I read on the deletion thing I needed to contact you in order to do that, if I read it right. How can I finish the article without creating a whole new one or should I just start over with a new one? Thanks. HorrorPackFan (talk) 14:23, 4 September 2017 (UTC)HorrorPackFanHorrorPackFan (talk) 14:23, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

@HorrorPackFan: You have to ask the deleting administrator, RHaworth (talk · contribs) on their user talk page. This page is for discussing the speedy deletion policy in general. Regards SoWhy 14:40, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

New criteria

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This is an extension of the failed proposal of a new criteria made some months ago at here. Prose : G14: Articles created in violation of the Wikimedia Foundation terms of use that prohibit undisclosed paid editing

1. The main difference this time is in the specifics : This applies only to articles created by users blocked for paid editing or for being confirmed sockpuppets.This applies only to articles created by users blocked for paid editing or for being confirmed sockpuppets, and have no substantial edits by others.
2. Optional Specific : The articles must fall into either of the two categories - WP:BLP or WP:ORG.

Why this helps?

• Most paid editors are experienced folks, and they know how to write articles which rise above deletion. Most often they operate different accounts at the same time, which are not easily linked back to the original sockmasters due to their experience with SPI. So G5 is powerless as the articles were created before they were blocked.
• However I feel there should not be a difference between articles created before they were blocked and those created after they were blocked. Why :

1. If they were blocked for paid editing, it is self explanatory as to why they should be deleted.
2. If they were blocked for being a confirmed sockpuppet, they mostly likely had a WP:COI in creating the articles. The emphasis on confirmed is to avoid any qualms of arbitrariness. For example in - WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Amitabhaitc/Archive, the administrators blocked KuwarOnline on the suspicion of being a sockpuppet, even without CU evidence to confirm that. So that would mean all the articles created by him would not be eligible for deletion under this criteria, but those by the other confirmed sockpuppets would be eligible for deletion. What this does is rule out deleting contributions by all the editors who were blocked as sockpuppets exclusively based on behavioural evidence.

• Most often Wikipedia is part of the package for online promotion, per this. So paid press often accompanies these articles, and are used as references. Voonik and its CEO Sujayath Ali were created by a large sockfarm, and many of its subsequent editors have also been blocked. However they will probably survive AfD, as there are references to satisfy WP:CORPDEPTH and WP:GNG, and the article will continue to remain, with probably just a COI tag. Well meaning inclusionists will oppose moves to delete this citing the references, scuttling any efforts to delete this.
• If the articles are deleted as soon as sockpuppets are identified, then it would break the back of paid editors, as customers will not be willing to pay for articles that are deleted soon. I also believe this would lead to more voluntary declarations of WP:PAID as they would try their best to stay away from being blocked. Suspected paid editors are always keenly watched by Sockpuppet hunters, as the paid editors know, and the fear of loosing all their work, and thereby their reputation among customers would invite more WP:PAID declarations.
• WP:BLP and WP:ORG is good for a start, as these are the most abused areas.
• As with all CSD, the reviewing administrator would still have discretionary powers to look at the suitability. So for example, our current AfD position is to let articles that satisfy WP:NPOL or WP:NFOOTY stay. However we do not extend the same for WP:NFILM and expect them to satisfy WP:GNG. Same goes with the CSD. If they are sure to survive AfD based on such provisions, they should not be deleted. However in all other cases they should be deleted.

End of long post. Now for the comments. Jupitus Smart 07:36, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

!vote subsection

I strongly oppose any such criterion. I think it violates the deletion policy. Even if it didn't or if consensus was obtained to change that policy, it is my view that the test should be the content of the article, not who created it. Indeed i favor removing the current G5, which authorized deletion perfectly good articles created in violation of a block or ban. To delete a perfectly valid article, supported by reliable sources, because it was created by someone editing for pay, or while socking, is to damage the project. Indeed it would be a form of vandalism by consensus, if adopted. Now I don't object to applying the rules against promotional content quite strictly in the case of paid editors, and often enough that will have the same effect. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 15:43, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose - We should judge the content, not the creator. And besides, the creation of a paid editor where the article is promotional would likely get snow deleted at AfD. Really, it doesn't help things. RileyBugz^会話_投稿記録 15:51, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
  • RileyBugz, AfD typically doesn't deal with TOU as a reason for deletion and the conversation centers on NOT in these cases. There does appear to be a consensus emerging on this page that some form of deletion is warranted for articles created in contravention of the terms of use, but that maybe AfD is better. One of my main reasons for supporting this is that AfD thus far has not worked as well to deal with this serious problem. It gives us the ability to enforce the TOU, which we don't currently have. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:52, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose without prior consensus to change the paid editing policy. I understand where this proposal is coming from but this is the wrong venue. WP:Paid editing#Changing this policy prescribes that changes in how to handle paid editing should be discussed in a community-wide RfC and whether to delete pages created in violation of the ToU is something that basically changes this policy (by adding an automatic deletion). This goes against both WP:PRESERVE and WP:ATD and thus needs much more discussion than a post to WT:CSD. If the creator is already banned or blocked from editing before creation, G5 applies anyway. Regards SoWhy 15:59, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
  Addendum: I also believe this to be impractical. How would admins be able to identify such paid editors in a way that is objective? Currently it often takes a lot of work to figure this out, so how can we expect admins patrolling CAT:CSD being able to easily identify such creators? Regards SoWhy 07:05, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Er, admins are not required to identify paid editors. All they have to do is check if the user who created the page has been blocked. If so check the reason as to why they were blocked by referring to the block log.

• • If the reason mentioned in the block log is paid editing then delete.
  • If the reason is an SPI investigation, click on that link and check if the user has been blocked as a confirmed sockpupper, which would also entail deletion. Jupitus Smart 07:28, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
• Strongly support the underlying idea. Yes we should delete articles created by undisclosed paid editors. If we have 5 accounts that are socks of one another, with each account used to create around one promotional article, it is obvious the TOU are being infringed. It is also obvious that they have prior blocked accounts even though we might not have found them yet so G5 would also apply. But an additional criteria for deletion would be useful. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:42, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

• Doc James says just above that It is also obvious that they have prior blocked accounts even though we might not have found them yet". This is sheer unverified assumption. If the statement "John Jones previously edited Wikipedia using a sock account, in violation of its TOS" were to be included in a BLP, would the above reasoning count as "well-sourced"? Indeed many SPIs based on "behavioral evidence" are based on little better than assumptions, and in a few cases where I have had reason to look into things based on assertions of innocence by a blocked user, they have turned out to be in error. I ask you, would the evidence presented in a typical "behavioral" SPI (one with no checkuser evidence) stand up it it were being nused to source a statement in a BLP? I think not. And now this evidence, not in just a typical case but in every case, is to be made sufficeint to delete every edit by a blocked user? I think not. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 12:36, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

We are talking about large families of socks verified by CU, not account blocked on behavioral evidence. Do you truly think that real new editor will start editing Wikipedia by creating 6 socks and writing one perfectly formated promotional article with each them? Sometimes a duck is a duck. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:26, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose, in the absence of broad and concrete consensus on the paid editor policy. New criteria should be added only when an article that meets that criteria is virtually certain to be deleted. That's not the case here - editors will first debate whether the editor was a paid editor under the policy, then they'll debate whether the article could stand on its own merits, then they'll toss in COI for fun. G5 will cover some cases (mostly with socks), and A7 many others. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 18:37, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
• A common thread among 3 of the oppose voters is that we should delete based on the content and not on the contributor. However G5 already is a means against that idea, and the new criteria is only completing the process, by plugging an inherent loophole in G5. Voonik provides an illustrative example for what I wish to convey:

• It was created by Strobe12345, who was blocked for being a sockpuppet of Smileverse. After their block, the article was extensively edited by different sockpuppets of Gayatri0704. However there was no CU evidence linking the two sockmasters - Smileverse and Gayatri0704, even though they are obviously part of the same syndicate.
• This meant that all the articles created by Gayatri0704 and her many sockpuppets were not G5 eligible even though they they are obviously associated with previously blocked sockmasters. This probably has got to do with the sockpuppets getting intelligent since their last block and employing methods to evade linkbacks to previous accounts.
• With the sockpuppets getting intelligent it is time for us to rise up to them, and according to me the new criteria was intended to be an extension of G5. People who were blocked for sockpuppetry, are more likely to be paid editors than all the editors encompassed under G5, and therefore I believe that there is no need to pardon their first set of paid articles.Jupitus Smart 19:02, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

• Comment Maybe there is no loophole per WP:MEAT. Quote from policy, emphasis mine: "A new user who engages in the same behavior as another user in the same context, and who appears to be editing Wikipedia solely for that purpose, may be subject to the remedies applied to the user whose behavior they are joining." Could not the second account's promotional edits anywhere qualify for G5 under existing interpretation? Or maybe "in the same context" doesn't extend to the new articles created by Gayatri0704. Bri.public (talk) 20:53, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

I do not think that any admin will allow the clubbing of G5 and WP:MEAT as G5 almost explicitly prohibits that. AGF is bound to be the cited reason. Jupitus Smart 04:01, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support - we are now drowning in articles created by undisclosed paid editors. These editors are prohibited from editing here at all - the equivalent of banned editors. Treat them as banned editors or treat them as never-allowed editors as proposed here, but we can't ignore all their garbage. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 19:08, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
• Moral support, practical oppose CSD are supposed to be unambiguous. G5 is unambiguous and will apply to editors who have been previously banned, including for undisclosed paid editing. Having seen how G11 is applied, I cannot see this as anything other than a shoot-first-ask-questions-later dramafest. By all means, ban undisclosed paid editors violating the TOUs, take suspected socks to SPI, and G5 their creations if confirmed. As far as previous articles created before a ban? Take 'em to AfD. If it's that clearcut a case, a mass nom shouldn't take much extra time. Jclemens (talk) 19:18, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

How many of these people actually get banned vs. just blocked? There is' a difference, you know. 71.208.245.45 (talk) 03:42, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

• Comment I think this falls under WP:G11 ("Unambiguous advertising or promotion"). It's known that undisclosed paid editors write in this tone, so any such page could be speedied under G11 criterion anyway. As an alternative, G11 could be expanded to explicitly mention undisclosed COI, without adding new criterion. Brandmeister^talk 20:08, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
  • I like this alternative better than a separate criterion. Jclemens (talk) 02:01, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
    • It's a nice sentiment, but what would it accomplish? A practical example: would you have G11'd this? I wouldn't, even knowing that that's the account's first edit (and the second and third are an appeal to the deleting admin and a DRV), and my stance on G11 is so far toward the deletion end compared to the admin average that I don't trust myself to take action on them. —Cryptic 02:39, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
• This fails new criteria criterion #3, not frequent enough, since it requires blocking the paid editors. That's vanishingly rare in comparison to the number of paid articles. —Cryptic 21:02, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. "created in violation of the Wikimedia Foundation terms of use that prohibit undisclosed paid editing" is not unambiguous. Short of a an admission/declaration which then makes it OK as not undisclosed, it always requires an investgation, and that investigation should end with with a discussion on actions such as deletion. "Drowning in articles created by undisclosed paid editors"? The answer is G11, although perhaps a [[WP:|log of G11-ed topics suspected of being products of undisclosed paid editing]] would be a good idea for long-term tracking. Speedy deletion provides more of a clean slate for the inept paid editor to do it more discreetly next time. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:38, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Cryptic wrote below "Ambiguity really isn't the problem here: the articles become speedyable if "TOU", "undisclosed paid editing", or "abusing multiple accounts" appears at the top of the author's block log". That is not the proposal wording. Do Admins WP:Block with correct summaries and without errors? Any one admin may make such a block, and then this would allow the deletion of every article page authored by them? The evidence is deleted, thus suppressed preventing participation or review by ordinary editors? I tend to agree that these pages should usually be deleted, but I think at least a week discussion per blocked author is demanded. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:46, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support per Doc James, as long as it is provable that the article in question was created in violation of the TOU. Articles are deleted all the time when it is apparent that they are created by socks of blocked editors. Such editors are not supposed to be creating articles and the same goes for TOU-violating paid editors. Coretheapple (talk) 23:15, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support This is the logical consequence of undisclosed paid editing. It also will be very useful to have this as part of efforts to discourage people from buying services from paid editors - it will make it even more clear that if they work with someone who tries to avoid policy, they are at (even more) risk of wasting their money. For those who say undisclosed paid editors are often socking -- well we can't always identify sockmasters or even convince CU to run a check, so this direct line to deletion would be very useful in the post-indef cleanup. We can also often use db-promo, but again the direct message of "undisclosed paid article creation >> speedy deletion", is a very good and very clear message to send to the world. And to use. Jytdog (talk) 00:20, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
• Strong support TOU is the bare minimum criteria to be able to use server space before we even begin to assess whether it should be present. If an editor does not comply with the terms of use, the content has no right at all to be on Wikipedia, and we don't need to assess if it complies with other policies. This is similar to G12 deletion: even if the content is good, we delete them as being in violation of our terms of use. It also is in line with the WMF's strategic vision of being the most trusted source of knowledge by 2030. We cannot have an encyclopedia where people are allowed to pay publicists to promote their views in secret. It is against the five pillars of Wikipedia, and it has been made a part of the legal TOU for the site. One should no more be able to do it than they can make an edit here without agreeing to our licensing terms. We simply need the technical means to enforce it, and this is the simplest way to give admins the ability to enforce them. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:55, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
  • I think the G12 comparison is misleading. We don't delete copyvio because it's against the ToU, we delete it because keeping it might leave the Foundation vulnerable to legal action by the copyright owners. Content produced by paid editors without declaration does not carry this risk of legal action, so removing it is less urgent. Regards SoWhy 07:01, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
    • SoWhy, sorry for the late response. I just saw this now coming back to the conversation. You are correct that G12 certainly has more legal implications for the Foundation than undeclared paid editing does. The legal implications are why they include not hosting copyrighted content in the terms of use. G12 is our enforcing the choice of WMF legal counsel to make that a requirement for using this website. The proposed G14 would be along the same principles: the WMF has required that editors declare if they are paid unless there is an explicit consensus on the local Wiki to create an exemption or a different policy. Since there is not an explicit consensus for an exemption on en.wiki, contributions of undeclared paid editors have a similar status in my mind to copyright violations: they are contributions where the contributor added them to en.wiki without the legal right to do so, since they did it in violation of the conditions of the terms the owner of the servers placed on their use. I should likely know better to discuss legalities with a jurist, but I did want to further explain myself :) TonyBallioni (talk) 00:11, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
      • Allowing Wikipedia to fill up full of paid for promotional material has a very significant risk of harming our reputation. The longer we do not deal with it the greater the risk. Thus I see an equal great necessity to deal with this as to deal with plagiarism. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:29, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose, practically speaking based on application. Agree with rationale as laid out by Jclemens, above. Jclemens outlines a logical process for how best to deal with this issue. Agree that CSD are supposed to be unambiguous. G5 is unambiguous and is straightforward in nature. G11 has historically been applied with more of a subjective nature and I agree with Jclemens can lead to a dramafest. Best to use other processes for this as recommended by Jclemens. Sagecandor (talk) 01:18, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Ambiguity really isn't the problem here: the articles become speedyable if "TOU", "undisclosed paid editing", or "abusing multiple accounts" appears at the top of the author's block log. This would get some use from the last, sure, but we need something with actual teeth for the first two. —Cryptic 01:36, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
• Strong support per Tony Ballioni, Jytdog, DocJames, and others. Since the WMF won't ban it outright, we must take strong steps to bring paid editing under control and stop the damage to the content and reputation of the encyclopedia. People who come here have to know that what they read has not been written by paid advocates. This is a good step forward. The "oppose" rationales are weak and unconvincing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:21, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
• Strong support per everyone here. Paid editing can be a problem here sometimes, any sort of new guidelines restricting CoIs are welcome in my book. Jdcomix (talk) 01:51, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support speedy deletion of articles created in violation of the TOU, as a TOU is useless without full enforcement. – Train2104 (t • c) 02:53, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
• Note per SoWhy's concern above, I have posted this at WP:CENT and left a note at VPP. Jupitus Smart, I think it is probably appropriate to put an official RfC template on this. TonyBallioni (talk) 03:22, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Thanks for that. I still think this is the wrong venue though because the proposed addition will contradict both WP:PRESERVE and WP:ATD as well as impact the WP:PAID policy, so those policies need to be changed first. Speedy deletion is a way to enforce existing policy, not to create new one. Regards SoWhy 07:01, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
    • Not a problem, I actually don't like WT:CSD as a venue either, though for the reason that the watchlist crowd here tends to be opposed to any changes and that VPP would have been a more neutral place to discuss it. To the policy argument, like I mentioned below, I don't see this as a policy concern so much as enforcing something that already exists above local policy: the terms of use. Unless the English Wikipedia clearly adopts a policy to the contrary on paid disclosures, the TOU control above any local policy. Because of that, since there is no consensus to allow an exemption from the TOU like Commons has, any content added in violation of the terms of use doesn't even get the benefit of local policies because the user was not allowed to place it on the encyclopedia. By not giving administrators a way to enforce the TOU, we are effectively making an exemption policy without explicit consensus to do so. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:19, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
• Strong support G11 is too narrowly interpreted now. Many admins look for adspeak which is just poorly done promotion. The more sophisticated paid editors create pages that are either too well written for G11 or are in Draft and Userspace and are mainly for the SEO and link building benefits. Legacypac (talk) 03:33, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Can you elaborate on the SEO benefits? Those pages are not indexed by search engines after all. Regards SoWhy 07:01, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
• Ambiguity is being presented as one of the reasons for opposing this. Articles created by editors blocked for paid editing or editors blocked for confirmed sockpuppetry is an unambiguous closed set, which is probably narrower in its scope than G5 but covers more articles that are more likely to have been created in bad faith. Take the case of Teefa In Trouble created by the sock of an editor who was blocked for disruptive editing. The new sock was blocked for sockpuppetry as soon as he was identified, and the article deleted as G5. Teefa in Trouble was promoted from Draftspace, and had enough references to stay. It probably was not a case of paid editing, but it still ended up getting deleted. My concern is that while an editor blocked as a case of WP:NOTHERE cannot create good faith articles anymore, paid editors are allowed to slip through the cracks as our system is powerless against them. I find that very saddening. Jupitus Smart 03:49, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
  • It may be unambiguous, but it's also ambitious. How many people opining on this have actually worked as checkusers? If an account is blocked on behavioral evidence (i.e., at least one admin at SPI thinks they're sufficiently alike), we consider that sufficient evidence to delete everything ever contributed, that--on the face of it--doesn't meet G11 or it would have already been deleted? Again, I like the idea but the implementation is not workable without risking a lot of false positives, and the opening statement's reassurances do not convince me. Jclemens (talk) 05:25, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
    • Either I have not understood what you want to say or you have not understood what I intend to convey. I will assume the former. If an account is blocked exclusively on the basis of behavioural evidence, all the work done by the blocked user will not be eligible for deletion as I explained with an example above and which I will re-iterate again. In Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Amitabhaitc/Archive, KuwarOnline was blocked on the basis of behavioural evidence even when there was no CU evidence against him. Nowhere in the SPI has he been mentioned as a confirmed sockpuppet, which means his articles cannot be considered for deletion under this criteria. Jupitus Smart 06:26, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
      • Perhaps neither applies. I have participated at DRV intermittently over the past decade, and I have seen an alarming trend towards admins applying CSD criteria in an outcome-based manner ("Well, it should have been deleted even if it didn't meet the letter of the CSD"), and, worse, other editors endorsing that behavior. Thus, while I have no doubt those supporting the criteria believe in good faith that it will be applied correctly, I have little to none that it will never be abused. I won't go into further details per WP:BEANS, but no matter how many safeguards are put into the system, basing the system on an SPI outcome is quite abusable. Jclemens (talk) 07:16, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
        • I understand your proclivity which is probably based on your experience. I still think there are enough fail-safe mechanisms to prevent admin abuse and if we have survived G5, we will probably tide through this, which is just as similar. But then again, to each their own opinion. Jupitus Smart 07:28, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose - Content should be deleted/removed based on its merits and not on its creators. The fact that I, DESiegel, RileyBugz, and SoWhy have explicitly articulated this principle in this (at this time) relatively small RfC shows that the proposed G14 clearly fails the "uncontestable" requirement for CSD since the fundamental principle underlying G14, that content should be removed based solely on its creator, lacks consensus (see Ultraexactzz). I understand that nearly all content created by paid editors should be deleted on its merits. However, the existing criteria are plenty sufficient to remove uncontroversially bad content, especially given that their application frequently exceeds their strict wording. For all the rest, there's AfD. I see no evidence (and none has been presented) that the vigorous current anti-paid editing efforts, for which I am immensely grateful, are having any trouble efficiently deleting problematic content, so even if there were consensus on the principle underlying G14, there does not appear to be a need for it. A2soup (talk) 04:43, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
  • The content has no right to be judged on its merits if it is in violation of the terms of use. This is the same thing as copyright. The user legally does not have the right to put it on Wikipedia since the non-profit that owns the servers requires that they declare their paid editing status before saving it. This is merely a technical means of enforcing that requirement equivalent to G12. This RfC has been added to CENT and posted to VPP, as well as given an RfC ID that will make it added to lists and distributable by the bot. I expect after 30 days, a clearer consensus will emerge one way or another and that it won't be that small of a conversation. TonyBallioni (talk) 06:10, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

My point about the smallness of the RfC was only to emphasize that a large proportion of participants disagreed with the principle - I am sure the discussion will grow and all these things will become clearer. A2soup (talk) 06:45, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support per various points above; particularly the rather narrow interpretation of G11 that is occasionally encountered: Simplistically, where if an article isn't saying "Stop me and buy one" or written by User:SaatchiandSaatchi, it is claimed as not advertising/promo. Good examples from today- here, here, or here. All clearly WP:PAID editors. SPI will bring back nothing; the accounts are set up, and article is bunged straight into draftspace, silently moved into article space, and the account retired. In fact, it doesn't retire in our meaning of it- just becomes moribund. One account=one job; WP:G5 will not apply. — fortunavelut luna 07:20, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

• The first of your examples is not at all promotional, Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi, it is a purely factual description, although the firm may not be notable. But then it is still in a sandbox. The 2nd I have tagged for speedy deletion as promotional. The third I have reviewed and rejected the draft as not yet establishing notability. And on what basis do you say these were "clearly" paid editors? Would these all be speedy deletable under the proposed criterion? If so, why? DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 13:36, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

All paid editors, regardless of the depth of promotionalism in the article, was what I meant (glad at least one was OK :p ); because "the accounts are set up, and article is bunged straight into draftspace, silently moved into article space, and the account retired... One account=one job." They never get used again. That's why our relaince on SPI and G5 is naive: the accounts are set up purely in order to write the article, once it's in article space, job done. You'll never hear from them again. They charge a fair bit; it is hard to imagine they don't factor petrol / train tickets into their costings. These are the professional ones of course; if you ever find one who's used AfC, you'll know they're new to paid editing. Don't worry- once the article they want to make money out of has got completely bogged down there, they won't make the same mistake again. They'll very quickly learn to do the above. They'll probably appreciate their luck, of course. Vis a vis the fact that their 'opponents', in vague and vain attempts at upholding their own ToU, rely on policies to confront the paid editor that were created in the infancy of the internet when words like SEO were a glint in a blackmarketeer's eye, and whom also will never ever unite against them and will forever be distracting themselves with trivia, ignoring the tide as it laps at their boots. That, ladies and gentlemen, is your very own WP:NOTLINKEDIN profile and career trajectory of the fully paid-up paid editor who actually wants to be paid... and is. Cheers! — fortunavelut luna 13:54, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

• Yes we need to adapt to the realities we find ourselves in. We are now a major information resource and as such people are trying to co opt our good name for their personal financial benefit. We need to prioritize quality over quantity at this point. We should not allow socks of obviously previously blocked accounts to get a free ride simply because we can only prove 99% that they do not previously have a previous blocked account. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:18, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

  Agreed with Doc James and FIM that simply having a page on the English Wikipedia can serve as a form of promotion. Since G11 only deals with clear marketing speak, AfD is necessary for these pages now. I find it interesting that the argument by some here is that AfD works fine in cases like this: NOTSPAM typically works as a way to get rid of spam at AfD, but if you use a TOU argument it tends to get shot down with people sometimes saying to use speedy deletion if it is so bad. It seems like a bit of a Catch-22: when you argue TOU at AfD, you are told to try CSD. When you are at a CSD RfC, its said that these cases need AfD. We need to clarify which process is the way to deal with this because there does seem to be agreement that they should be deleted, just no agreement as to which forum. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:19, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose as unworkable. As well as what Jclemens says above, deleting articles based on who the creator is, regardless of any subsequent edits, is a horrible route to go down, and will cause endless arguing and bad feeling. There are numerous articles where the initial creation was by a paid editor or by somebody later blocked for paid editing, but where the topic is unquestionably notable in Wikipedia terms and where subsequent edits have brought it to a neutral and reliably-sourced state. Were this to pass, articles as diverse as The milkmaid and her pail, Nicki Minaj and Line management would be liable to immediate speedy deletion subject to the whim of whether the reviewing admin happened to decide they were sure to survive AfD or not. ‑ Iridescent 09:49, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

  Sure if it was significant fixed up it would be ineligible for deletion under this criteria. Most however do not get edits of substance because the topic is barely notable. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:25, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose as written. An article created against the ToU and then completely rewritten from scratch by others should not be speediable. The proposal has merit to my mind but it must be redrafted more thoughtfully. Thincat (talk) 09:56, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

  I think it would be perfectly reasonable to not apply this to those that are "completely rewritten". This almost never happens.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:25, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose - with the exception of confirmed sockpuppets of previously blocked users (where G5 applies), the community has no reasonable means of determining this. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 10:04, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
• Instead of providing moral support and opposing the move, I would much rather invite opinions from such editors on how better to frame the draft. This is largely a consensus building exercise, and I understand that most of the support votes are also based on personal proclivities towards wiping paid editing off Wikipedia. One of the users above said that The milkmaid and her pail, Nicki Minaj and Line management and the like can be deleted under this. If by that logic, tomorrow if we find that Roger Federer was made by an editor who is the sock of a blocked sockmaster - then would the article be eligible for G5. Roger Federer technically would then be eligible for deletion, though no logical admin would accept that. The same sanity would be expected of administrators in the new case as well. Jupitus Smart 10:22, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes. It is not a fair criticism, articles like Milkmaid etc, because all pages, per the CSD criteria, are subject to 'A page is eligible for speedy deletion only if all of its revisions are also eligible' (my emph). — fortunavelut luna 10:29, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Actually, they wouldn't be eligible for G5 because G5 explicitly does not apply to pages with substantial edits by other users. Something the current proposal lacks. Regards SoWhy 10:41, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Actually, SoWhy my answer incorporates that already. As I was ready to point out to the editor who originally used the example... Milkmaid stopped being eligible for G5 on it's fifth edit, which is what would have made it illegible way back. And my comment still stands. All CSD criteria are covered by the need for all edits to be eligible for it to apply, this criteria would too. So, if a paid editor writes an article that is subsequently re-written (one of the above suggested problems), it still could not be eligible, on the assumption the second editor was, say, you. Which is nice. — fortunavelut luna 10:51, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

This is a fair point, which I have used to update the draft. More points at improvement are welcome from all. Jupitus Smart 10:45, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi and Jupitus Smart No, that doesn't work; you're falling into the category mistake of dividing the world into "good editors" and "paid editors". Yes, there are some PR accounts who only exist to promote their clients, at whom I assume this proposal is aimed. However, a paid editor is just as likely to be a reasonably long-term experienced Wikipedia editor who after a while has thought something along the lines of "given the amount of unpaid work I've put into this, I may as well put the skills I've developed to practical use and make some money on the side". (We're not talking a few marginal characters here—at least one WMF employee has been caught out touting for paid-editing work on Elance.) This proposal and all variations I can think of on it would mean applying damnatio memoriae to these editors, even if their paid editing was just a brief blip at the end of a decade of constructive contributions.

If (for the sake of argument) I start editing for pay and get caught out and blocked, under this proposal pages like Halkett boat, Alice Ayres or Victorian painting to which I'm the sole substantive contributor would immediately become eligible for speedy deletion, even though they're on topics in which it's hard to imagine there being the possibility of a COI since nobody gains/loses anything from what their Wikipedia articles say. (This isn't just an arcane hypothetical point—had Sarah Stierch been blocked rather than just reprimanded when she was caught red-handed, would we have deleted Wadsworth Jarrell under this provision? If you don't think we should be deleting it, then you're effectively adding an "unless the reviewing admin likes the article" proviso to WP:CSD which is a route to endless ill-tempered arbitration cases—speedy deletion is meant only for uncontroversial cases.)

Given how much of the process is now automated via Twinkle, it's not as if taking a created-for-pay article to AFD is an incredibly onerous process. (And no, I don't for one second buy the "but taking it to AFD means it's live for a week so the subject is getting publicity!" argument. If anything, a Wikipedia page with a big "this article is being considered for deletion" banner at the top is more of a disincentive to potential paid editing customers than a page which quietly disappears.) ‑ Iridescent 17:05, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

No, the three categories of editor would be the good, the bad, and the paid, as it were. — fortunavelut luna 08:08, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

In my opinion they should only be eligible if all the articles by your hypothetical socks were promotional in nature. And none of the accounts looked "new". Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:54, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

@Iridescent: For the sake of a counter-argument, let us think of a supposed scenario. Suppose its turns out that you are the sock of a previously blocked sockmaster. G5 would entail that Halkett boat, Alice Ayres or Victorian painting, would then be eligible for deletion as you were the only contributor. If I were to tag them as such, do you realistically think any of the admins would accept that and have these well written articles deleted. I do not think any admin would do so, as G5 exists primarily to drive off WP:COI content.

My proposal is just an extension of that, and would be governed by the same metrics as before. As for the illustrious editor turning into paid editor scenario. This is the same as before and can be refuted by an addition. Suppose an illustrious editor decides to become a paid editor one fine day and is found out and blocked. He cannot live without editing Wikipedia, and decides to form another account, and continues to edit while trying not to leave traces linking him to his former account. He ends up writing much better articles (with many FA's to his credit) than before while not indulging in any paid editing this time. I am a sockpuppet hunter and initiate an SPI in which he is identified as a sock and blocked. Would it be okay if I tagged all his new creations as G5. Do you think any admin would accept that, if the FA's were like the ones you had mentioned earlier.

The answer in both the above cases would normally be that the admin removes the tag and chides the person who tagged or advises to go for an AfD.

The problem is not about the 7 days it would be on AfD. I personally don't think that even matters if it were deleted and the 7 day publicity would be anything but desirable for the company concerned. That is however not the case as many a times Wikipedia is part of the package of paid editing, and is accompanied by news articles. Take the case of Nathan M. Farrugia. This is an article created by a paid editor, who brags about it and has listed in his portfolio on Upwork (Source). This was created by a G5 eligible editor and I have tagged it as such now. However do you think the same article would have been deleted had it been taken to AfD. I don't think so as many well meaning editors would have jumped to its defence citing the good references present. This user was dumb enough to list the article in his portfolio and I was able to tag it. What about the thousands of other paid editors who are not so dumb. This was created by a single purpose account which was blocked for sockpuppetry. A look at all his confirmed sockpuppets is mind-boggling Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of LogAntiLog and this is not including the many sockpuppets that may have been yet to be identified. When we are facing a problem of such magnitude, it is pertinent that we employ harsher measures. I am off to sleep now. Probably the G5 is accepted by the time I wake up. Jupitus Smart 19:32, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

So what you're saying is that you want to make "delete them unless the reviewing admin likes them" Wikipedia policy. I reiterate my opposition to this, which is so counter to the spirit of CSD that it beggars belief that anyone is supporting it. If the article is promotional, we have WP:G11 for that; if it's not unduly promotional than what's the issue? The WP:G5 criterion was created for an entirely different reason (I was there), to deal with the issue of long-term problematic users like ItsLassieTime where there was the presumption that their sourcing was likely to be problematic, without having to manually check the sources in every article they'd written, and has no particular relevance here (since if something is problematically promotional and non-neutral it will already be deletable under existing provisions for dealing with spam). ‑ Iridescent 19:42, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose don't punish the reader by withholding notable topics from them. Inappropriate promotional content is already well served by G11. feminist 13:42, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose As someone who's spent a lot of time working WP:COIN issues, I don't think a speedy deletion for paid editing is unambiguous enough. If we make deletion too speedy, we'll just end up with more articles at deletion review. I'll sometimes use proposed deletion, or "prod". In a week, the article is gone. It might be useful to require that you have to have achieved, say, autoconfirm level to remove "prod" tags. I'll sometimes start an AfD for an article that probably came from paid editing and just isn't about something notable enough. Sometimes there's argument, but it usually ends up being one paid editor vs. the world, and the paid editor loses. If they win, so be it; that's consensus. Sometimes you need more eyes on the problem. See, for example, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nelson De La Nuez, an eBay art seller with heavy self-promotion. The harder we looked, the less notable they got. John Nagle (talk) 22:28, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose, but support further community discussion of serious countermeasures against paid editing. I came in hoping to support, and while I am sympathetic to the underlying idea, I agree with Jclemens. The proposal would only generate drama, and is rather duplicative of G5 and G11. I work extensively in filing and clerking SPI cases involving paid editing, and can attest to the urgent need to find a workable solution to this very problem. GAB^gab 22:34, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose speedy deletion, but I would definitely support a middle ground of automatically throwing a PROD tag on everything that appeared to be paid. bd2412 T 23:14, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

  @BD2412: My experience with this is that another sock always comes along and removes the tag. It has to go through AFD to be safe. —Guanaco 23:31, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

  Then we can easily identify who is removing PROD tags from paid editing articles. bd2412 T 23:38, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

  Sounds good. Support a special category of PRODs of articles by undisclosed paid editors, and creation of a log of paid editors and dePRODders of their articles. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:45, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

  We need to look at getting approval to run a CU on all brand new accounts dePRODing a spammy article created by another brand new account. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:19, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

  Sounds, good, Doc James. New accounts dePRODing a spammy article, CU them. CU is very restrictive about discovering personal information on old editors, it could be way more lax on combating paid editor new account rings. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:17, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose because it would include articles with substantial changes by legitimate users. I would support a change to G5 to explicitly include pages whose only substantial edits are by sock farms. —Guanaco 23:33, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

  User:Guanaco Agree this is likely a better way to go. How should we define farm? Three or more? Four or more? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:21, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support if and article was created by a sockfarm and/or looks COI-like but has no edits by legit users who improve the article and remove promotional language (just slapping {{coi}} or {{advert}} on there doesn't count). KMF (talk) 00:22, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
• Moral support, practical oppose, largely per Jclemens, Iridescent, and John Nagle. I'm strongly in favor of rapidly nuking this sort of deceptive spam. I hear the proposer's request for constructive suggestions for how to improve the proposal. So: it seems to me that we do not need to have a G14 to put on those pages, because the process as envisioned must follow the sequence of, first, identifying the violation of policy or TOU, and then, second, requesting rapid deletion. We can accomplish that pretty well with existing policy, so long as the administrators who deal with the policy violation then go on to nuke the non-notable pages that had been created. We don't need a CSD for that to happen, and it's better to depend on human evaluation of each page anyway. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:44, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

• Tryptofish, absent a new CSD, on what basis would admins "go on to nuke the non-notable pages". Admins are not authorized curently to delete pages simnply because they are njon-notable. That is a decision to be made at an AfD. No one, not even an AfD, is authorized to delete pages because their creator was subsequently blocked, that would violate deletion policy. There is no such thing as an IAR speedy or rapid deletion. Any such deletion would violate current policy, and would be properly overturned at WP:DRV. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 01:16, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

• You raise an interesting point, one that I had not thought of. To some degree, I was simply getting, shall we say, overly enthusiastic when I talked about "nuking". As I think about your comment, I find myself asking whether, in fact, the deletion has to be that urgent, anyway. WP:There is no deadline and all that. I get it, that we don't want to overload AfD (and PROD) with spam that will unquestionably have to be deleted anyway. But I feel like what matters more in this case is my original observation that there would be no way, even with a G14, to make a deletion decision before having come to the conclusion that there had been a policy violation: it would be nonsensical to delete first and investigate later. Consequently, there has to be some consideration prior to deleting, no matter how we do this. Here's a thought: just as we have WP:BLPPROD as a special category of WP:PROD, we could make another special PROD category for cases like this. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:23, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
• Looking back here, I see that the PROD idea has already been proposed in the discussion section below. Woops. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:37, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Great minds think alike? Or just we are both looking over the same small toolbox to try and find the least inappropriate tool? :-) Jclemens (talk) 01:46, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

• Moral Oppose, Practical Oppose - as Tryptofish related from Jclemens et al. Still seems the prior "vague/covered". Morally, I feel judge the content not the user, blanket approach is wrong, and wishful thinking is bad for management. This guilt by association beyond just the TOU paid-for material is entirely too much focused on the irritation and not enough on looking for unintended consequences or collateral damage protections for a "nuking" option. Guidance should morally lead to a positive and be detailed anyway, rather than unleash draconian measures or be vague, so that WP:PAID leads to working better with WP how-to engage and do this instead of just hoops and constraints and punishments. Practically -- I agree with this wouldn't be effective (wishful thinking), questioning the need when alternatives exist, and this seems too vaguely stated to latch up to WP:PAID or WP:BLOCK or WP:BAN. I think the TOU clearly does not mean to throw out items not paid for or perhaps written before they were ever paid. Also practically, it is just easier to judge the content -- the motives of all editors are for something invisible and from some POV unknown and we do not care, but that they follow guidelines and give RS cites and goodness in content is visible and what we care about. Finally, for some topics the reality is that info is largely from press releases or captive reporters. Sony releases the film info that they want to; Microsoft coverage gets preview-packages (and if you write too off-script you get cut off); war coverage is by daily press briefing to controlled press pool. Markbassett (talk) 04:31, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

• Strong support. Endorsing Tony's comment wholeheartedly. As others have mentioned, G11 as currently construed is not dealing well enough with UPE. I've some experience with UPE in relation to academic boosterism; and based on that experience UPE content should be removed with prejudice. It is the only way of dealing with this. James (^talk/_contribs) 07:42, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support. I understand the opposes, I really do, and I even partially agree with most of them. But existing channels simply are not working well enough for this, and as Jytdog has mentioned, it is good to have a clear and unequivocal message on this to send to the world. Double sharp (talk) 08:10, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support Delete all the articles! Chris Troutman (talk) 16:03, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
  • I think "Delete all TOU violating submissions" is far superior to TOU sticky prod removalable arbitrarily by an admin. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:25, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
• Strong support. I've long held that we need to set up a proper incentive structure to dissuade paid editing. Immediate deletion is as strong a disincentive we can provide for breaking our rules. This is necessary. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 22:34, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
  • As an aside, this is already somewhat common practice. When we find a large sock ring that is making paid articles, I delete G5, whether or not I can identify a master that was blocked at the time of article creation. There was some discussion of this at one point and the gist is that, in the cases of large sock rings at least, we can be reasonably sure they've been blocked before even if they can't be tied to a specific farm. Or, alternatively, they are so behaviorally similar to any number of existing sock farms so as to meet the technical definition of sockpuppetry whether or not they're "really" the same farm. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 07:35, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Thank you! Statement of actual practice like this is very helpful. Based on what you are saying, this criteria is not actually new policy, but rather is just putting in writing the policy that is already consensus practice. It is not uncommon that written policy needs to updated to catch up with consensus-based practice. It is too bad this was not part of the original proposal as people would have reacted differently, most likely. Jytdog (talk) 07:43, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Agree with User:BU Rob13. When we find a large family of socks, none of which look new, who are writing promotional content. We can be certain they have prior blocked accounts so I also feel comfortable applying G5. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:57, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

@BU Rob13: and @Doc James: - Would any of these fall under the extended G5 criteria that BU Rob13 has mentioned above - Kijiji Canada, All Assam Minorities Students’ Union, Char Chapori Sahitya Parishad or Buljit Buragohain. These were created by a large sockfarm and around 10 of their sockpuppets were found out in one go. And they continue unabated with new sockpuppets even now per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Raju Adhikari. Jupitus Smart 18:57, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Yup would apply as none of the socks were ever a new account per their editing and thus we can assume that their are prior blocked socks. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:13, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support We have to dissuade paid editing companies and this is definitely a good way of doing so and getting them to declare properly. Currently, they have no incentive unless they are behaviorally obvious enough or make a small slip (e.g. mixing up of accounts)- this would add a 'stick' that incentivises them to declare, or get their articles deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcc (talk • contribs) 12:13, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose Sorry, this looks like a solution trying to find a problem. If paid editors create spam, our existing deletion policies can cope with it. If paid editors create articles on people who turn out to be notable per our guidelines, then what's the issue? I got "paid" to write Bullets and Daffodils, it just wasn't in cash. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 21:38, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose One would think a truly professional content producer would be smart enough to avoid being detected through checkuser and other methods of detection by following all the other policies outside of WP:COI. This proposed policy wouldn't likely be able to help with those people, which is what I assume the problem is - everybody else can already be dealt with through current policies. South Nashua (talk) 23:02, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose Many pages (not just articles, since we're talking general criteria here) written in violation of the TOU already fall under G11 or G12, and they may even fall under both. What isn't taken care of there can easily be handled by our various other deletion processes. If it's unpaid editing, chances are very high that it's not a notable topic. Even if it is a notable topic, chances are still very high that the page would need to be fundamentally rewritten to conform with Wikipedia:NOTFORPROMOTION (from G11), and so would still be deleted. If it is, by some miracle, salvageable, then WP:FIXIT. Even if, after you fix it, its history contains copyrighted content, simply use {{Copyvio-revdel}} (for non-admins) to request Rev-Del under WP:RD1 or Rev-Del it yourself (for admins). — Gestrid (talk) 03:11, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support The proposal is equivalent to "Should our Terms of Use" be enforced, and the prevailing answer appears to be "No, not really". Mind boggling. Rentier (talk) 10:38, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support (in the absence of a better alternative). ToU needs enforcing, the challenge is getting consensus on how, so hopefully those opposing can get behind something? Widefox; talk 18:13, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support per arguments by TonyBallioni, Jytdog, Legacypac, BU Rob13 and others. CSD is already overly complicated, but if this would even slightly dissuade spammers, then I see it as a net positive.- MrX 20:03, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose A7, G5 and G11 adequately cover this ground. I can't see why we would want to delete okay articles based solely on who the author is (especially when it can be sometimes difficult to know for certain whether the author was paid). If there are other, related instances they can be sent to AfD. If this means a significantly greater load at AfD which almost always results in consensus for deletion this can be reconsidered/proposed at a later date. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:47, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose As many others already said, it should be about the content, insted of the author. But maybe making it easier to delete it the normal way, would be a solution. --Info-Screen::Talk 12:11, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
• Strong support. It's important to discourage people from using Wikipedia for advertising; given the impact of mirrors, search engines, and other things advertisers target by adding things here, this requires a way to get rid of advertising that violates foundation policies quickly. Allowing undisclosed paid editors to hold the hope that the adds they spam here could stick around long enough to generate profits will cause trouble for us down the road. Additionally, the foundation policy on paid advertising is extremely important to Wikipedia's reputation and function as an encyclopedia; it is absolutely our duty to enforce it and to try and minimize any circumventions of it. Even when the text itself is good (which I feel is rare), it's important to underline that undisclosed paid editing hurts Wikipedia as a whole and leads to major scandals that damage our entire reputation every time it comes to light. Occasionally sacrificing potentially-usable stubs is an entirely reasonable price to pay for preventing that (and is no different than what we do with banned editors; I see no difference between this and that.) Anyone above who argues that we should not delete articles purely because of their creator or purely to enforce some broader goal of protecting Wikipedia needs to take a look at G5, which does exactly that, and which has been an uncontroversial part of CSD for years. Some people above have expressed concerns about identifying paid editors; however, this is nonsensical, since the CSD would only apply in cases where it was clear. --Aquillion (talk) 01:34, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support very strongly. Quality is now more important than quantity. It’s al very well to boast that we are getting on for 6 million articles, but already in my estimation anything up to 20% shouldn’t be here anyway. It’s gone beyond the point where we would ever be able to address even all the tagged BLPs. We won’t be able to discover all the paid-for articles either, but paid editing is growing exponentially, and the opposers here are possibly not aware that according to some claims there are even admins and New Page Reviewers taking on paid work.

This is not a solution looking for a problem. It’s defeatist to say that solutions are unworkable. it’s a very big problem that needs constant discussion and intelligent brainstorming until something is found that can be made to work. Too many people are opposing here who are not New Page Reviewers and have no idea of the magnitude of the spam, artspam, and devious articles that arrive here for which someone has obviously been paid and/or will increase their turnover as a result of their commercial exposure in Wikipedia. Never say we can’t delete per G14 without concrete proof - we delete per G5 all the time based on loud quacking. While a lot of it is very subtle and needs careful research, some paid editing is so blatantly obvious that if it weren't such a serious issue it would be a howling joke.

Wikipedia is organic and needs to adapt to new situations. Stifling progress by of rigidly adhering to every syllable of policy like a jurist's inflexible attention to every letter of the law will stifle our attempts to maintain a good reputation for the encyclopedia by changing our Wikilaws.

Wadsworth Jarrell is absolutely not the kind of article we're talking about, so we can do without red herrings and strawman arguments. As Beyond My Ken says, The "oppose" rationales are weak and unconvincing. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 14:10, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support The problem to address here is the time sink of good volunteer labor into providing service to organizations which are vandalizing Wikipedia. If we feel strongly enough to block an account for bad behavior then we should not further invest volunteer attention in preserving the vandal activity. CSD is the right place to start, then undeletion and AfD can be next steps if anyone objects. When dealing with accounts which are deemed in violation of the terms of service we should default to permit anyone to delete their work. This is a big issue consuming 100s of hours of volunteer labor and harming the reputation of Wikipedia. While there are theoretical other solutions which others might develop in the future, this one is practical, easy to implement, works now, and seems likely to prevent 10 times more problems than it could cause. I hear lots of volunteers burdened with promotional editing. I am not sure that I have ever heard a sympathetic story of any editor who behaved in a way that got them blocked, and yet posted content which I thought was obviously worth keeping. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:30, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose Here's why this policy is a bad idea. An editor who was later identified as part of a sockfarm created an article about someone named Bruce Flatt. Flatt is apparently a well known Canadian businessman and one of the richest people in Canada. There is an abundance of relaible third-party reportage about Flatt. The article Bruce Flatt was by deleted admin User:Kudpung under WP:G5, despite not having identified the article creator as a previously blocked or banned user. Now Wikipedia doesn't have an article on Flatt. Does this harm or help our readers? World's Lamest Critic (talk) 17:09, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

That, World's Lamest Critic, is a bad faith vote in vengeance of the comments and concerns that have been raised and expressed over your own editing pattern here. Serious users such as Doc James have commented. 17:27, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

If by "bad faith" you mean that we have different opinions, then yes, it is. If you mean I am opposing this because you support it, then I can assure you that you are wrong. Your deletion of Bruce Flatt is an excellent and timely example of what will happen if this proposal were adopted. I also believe it was an out of process deletion, but we agree to disagree on that. As for your comments about my editing, I'm not bothered so there's really nothing for me to avenge. World's Lamest Critic (talk) 17:51, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

World's Lamest Critic first edit was to JW's talk page. The subsequent edits show they are unlikely to be a new user. Bruce Flatt was created by User:AnalyticCat who is part of this family of socks.[2]. As it was a TOU violation and this family obviously has prior blocked socks not seeing an issue. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:50, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

WP:G5 Creations by banned or blocked users says: "To qualify, the edit or article must have been made while the user was actually banned or blocked. A page created before the ban or block was imposed or after it was lifted will not qualify under this criterion." wbm1058 (talk) 13:00, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2017 August 4. I'm a little confused about the rationale. wbm1058 (talk) 14:31, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Wbm1058 there is a general consensus that for very large farms with VPNs and where CU is a mess, we can safely assume that at some point there has been an original blocked account. In the case above, as Doc James pointed out, the user was part of a huge sock family that dated back with active accounts to 2015, and with stale accounts, likely had them dating back to 2009 that were stale. The odds of a sock farm like that not having been banned at one point is effectively zero. This is distinct from a sock family with one of two socks that is likely just a freelancer doing a one off. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:52, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't get it. Per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Tomwsulcer, the author of Bruce Flatt is a sockpuppet of Tomwsulcer, yet the sockmaster himself, a user who identifies himself on his user page, has a clean block log?? wbm1058 (talk) 15:16, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

No. CU did not find a connection to him, he is not the sockmaster: the clerks have yet to sort out what to move the page to: we don't know who the original account was there. GeneralizationsAreBad, could you look into getting that case resolved so that we don't have any additional confusion about a named master? TonyBallioni (talk) 15:23, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose. In most cases, these articles are spam to a significant extent; the worse ones can be G11-tagged immediately, and a borderline case should easily be pushed over the edge if you can demonstrate that the author's been blocked for paid editing or sockpuppetry. If it's not a borderline case in this way (i.e. it's a decent article as far as lack-of-promotion is concerned), and if it doesn't have other significant problems, deletion might well hurt the encyclopedia, so we mustn't delete such a page without giving a chance for objection (PROD) or discussion (AFD). Nyttend (talk) 01:02, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
• Very strong oppose. G5 and G10 are the only criteria currently that are about who created the page rather than its content. G10 is uncontroversial as it only relates to someone requesting deletion of their own work. G5 is frequently controversial in application, and has been throughout the 12 years I've been an admin, but the blocking and banning policy are not at all controversial in themselves. The moral panic about undisclosed paid editing does not enjoy full community support so basing a speedy deletion criterion on it cannot possibly be a good idea. Per Nyttend and others, it also fails the requirement for a speedy deletion criterion that everything that could be deleted should be deleted. TL;DR this will harm not improve the encyclopaedia. Thryduulf (talk) 07:48, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
• Strong support. This is absolutely essential and long overdue. We are already suffocating under the weight of paid editing, and we can only expect it to get worse. G11 is only available for articles that are overtly promotional in tone, but any article created for pay is, by its nature, an advertisement – it is a publication created for financial reward for the sole purpose of promoting a person or entity. Undeclared paid editing is not allowed under our terms of use, without any exception, and we are under an obligation to ensure that any such edits are summarily removed. This would be a good first step in that direction. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:53, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

• I don't want to raise Richard Stallman levels of pedantry, but what you're describing is paid advocacy. As I've said before, the WMF could pay me to go through nearly 2,700 articles in Category:Unreferenced BLPs and add a reliable source to each one (a tedious job that obviously nobody wants to do) - it would be "paid editing" but wouldn't be advertising. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:10, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support in theory (although extending G5 could also work). If we disallow undisclosed paid contributions, we need to have a tool to delete them. I am sceptical about the burden of proof, though. Perhaps decisions should be made at COIN or SPI? —Kusma (t·c) 12:15, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. As alluded to by Thryduulf above, I don't really understand the moral panic Wikipedia has with paid editors. Paid editing is against the terms of service specifically because paid editors are more likely to produce articles which are partisan and/or promotional, but we already have the tools to deal with that and I don't think there's any sign these existing mechanisms are failing. G5 is, I suppose, intended to try to improve compliance with bans and discourage socking in the same vein as WP:DENY. It's not about upholding some moral ideal that all editing here should be free of financial interest. I don't really see what the project has to gain from deleting good material on notable subjects purely on principle. We are foolish to think of ourselves as "at war" with paid editors; sometimes they even do us a favour by writing good-quality articles on notable subjects. Indeed, their work is often of a particularly high quality because they are familiar with Wikipedia's quality control processes. If paid editors produce specific work which is inappropriate then we can deal with that ad hoc using the tools already available, but I see nothing to be gained by granting admins carte blanche to delete articles just because they suspect the main contributor might have a financial conflict of interest. We should judge articles and their suitability based on content and quality, not authorship. Basalisk ^{inspect damage}⁄_berate 13:11, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose, does not come up sufficiently often. Stifle (talk) 13:38, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. If an article is written by a paid editor and is blatantly promotional, it will be deleted via G11. If the article is written by a paid editor and it is a well-written and neutral article, it should be kept. Deleting well-written articles on principle simply gets rid of well-written articles. In a practical sense, G11 covers every scenario under paid editing that would warrant a speedy deletion. This is both bad in principle and superfluous in practice. Malinaccier (talk) 16:32, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support, as a measure to dissuade organized paid editing, and as an effective tool to save valuable time of good-faith editors and admins. Many of the previous "oppose" arguments have 2 basic flaws: 1) Non-promotional well-sourced articles by organized sockfarms are, with a few extremely rare exceptions, a myth. The whole purpose of sockfarms as commercial enterprises is to make as much money as quickly as possible by advancing the goals of their customers - both of these goals are diametrically opposite to Wikipedia's principles and goals. So the risk of loosing suitable content is relatively small, and vastly overstated by previous statements. 2) "Judge articles by their content" is a noble idealistic view. But in rough and dirty daily practise regarding paid editing this view is upheld on the backs of dozens of fellow good-faith editors and admins, who have to waste hundreds of hours of their time cleaning up these messes - just to see the next sockfarm popping up a few weeks later. Talking about fair article assessment, how about we try to be "fair" towards these regular maintenance contributors and don't waste any more of their time than absolutely necessary? GermanJoe (talk) 17:02, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support If paid editors unlawfully create an article and we keep it anyway, they're incentivized to continue socking. Delete everything they do and they'll learn a lesson. Chris Troutman (talk) 19:19, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Chris troutman, I do believe you !voted above to delete all the articles!. Just noting it for you because I wouldn't want to strike a double vote of an established editor without letting them know. TonyBallioni (talk) 20:18, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support. Having a coherent, community-support policy (like this) is better than tacitly encouraging expansion of scope of other existing criteria. Sophisticated editors who are deliberately undermining the integrity of the project for financial gain are a serious ongoing problem, deserving of a policy response. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 13:56, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support underlining concept. Paid editors usually write promotional articles. That's what they are paid to do. QuackGuru (talk) 21:18, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose Judge the article by content, not source. ++Lar: t/c 04:21, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support -- having paid articles in the mainspace is disruptive; this is the best way to deal with this issue. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:19, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
• strongly Oppose I think that adding something like this as a criteria for deletion would be reasonable. Would likely overcome some of the inclusionist arguments (including my own) for keeping such stuff. But this is a horrid idea. Imagine someone gets blocked as a sock. Maybe incorrectly (it has happened). And someone else goes through and speedy tags every single article they've created that no one else has really touched. Or even if they do get blocked for socking in a way that has nothing to do with paid editing. Then all their work is deleted for one bad decisions made 5 years later. Or someone hacks their account after they've quit the project. They never even know they were blocked as a sock. But all their work gets deleted. This doesn't belong as a speedy. Way too overreaching and subject to abuse. Hobit (talk) 15:58, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose but support as a revision deletion criterion. When a user saves an edit, they agree both to the ToU and to the CC license release simultaneously. If they're flagrantly and knowingly ignoring one of those things, they have a case to argue that their contribution is not subject to the license agreement. The license also requires that the contribution is original content or that the contributor has the right to contribute that material, which if they've been paid under some contract we don't know the content of (which likely includes trademarks and intellectual property protection) to reproduce what is probably PR copy from the organization paying them, they very likely do not own a compatible copyright to their contribution. In these cases, every undisclosed paid edit is a potential copyright violation. A contract is implied if remuneration is received; paid editors' contributions ought therefore to be removed as soon as they are identified. That's a case for WP:REVDEL, which may leave pages with no contributions in which case other criteria apply. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:11, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose, per User:Jclemens. That being said, I'd be happy to see it harder to get a page back under G5, since there's usually another sock or a gullible inclusionist around to resurrect paid for articles and give them another go. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 10:27, 14 August 2017 (UTC).
• Oppose - We have adequate community-inclusive mechanisms for deleting craptervising and for challenging lame articles of dubious notability. We don't need an handful of fanatics riding around on white chargers and serving as judge, jury, and executioner without evidence as to an editor's financial relationship to a subject. Carrite (talk) 05:13, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
• Reluctant oppose- I don't think this is the best way to go about combating paid advertisements. I mostly agree with the above posters who argue that determining who is or is not a paid editor is inherently controversial. That said, I agree that Wikipedia is not very good at defending itself from being used as a billboard and I worry that opposing this proposal will be seized on as opposition to doing anything about it. I would not want that. Reyk _YO! 06:52, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose - What is the difference between WP:G5 and the proposed WP:G14? Bruce Flatt was created 21 October 2015, at 08:08 by AnalyticCat, who was blocked at 17:30, 27 July 2017. If Bruce Flatt can be deleted under WP:G5 then there is no need for the redundant G14. See #Flatt discussion above. wbm1058 (talk) 14:14, 16 August 2017 (UTC) See Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2017 August 4, which raises more questions in my mind. Again, if G5 already de facto covers G14 situations, why do we need G14? If someone without a COI "rewrites" the article in a neutral and acceptable manner, based on references used in the deleted version, do we need to restore the deleted revisions to restore attribution? wbm1058 (talk) 14:31, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support: I understand the concerns about ambiguity, but like other CSD criteria (hoaxes are a good parallel) this will only be used in clear cut circumstances. As long as the criterion says that this is for clear-cut situations, I have no problems with the practicality. The implications of this are not without precedent; as before, the hoax CSD could be called ambiguous and open to discretion but is largely a success. We must remember that tagging for CSD is only half the story. A qualified admin also needs to agree. This is a sensible solution to a problem that needs addressing, and I can't see any implementation issues. TheMagikCow (T) (C) 15:27, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose as more trouble than its worth. Use G5 more creatively.L3X1 (distænt write) )evidence( 13:06, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. As Iridescent said, "speedy deletion is meant only for uncontroversial cases." And as feminist pointed out, this change would punish ordinary readers of Wikipedia who are looking for a digest of the published information about a topic. As for me, as a Teahouse volunteer I frequently encounter editors who are working on articles without disclosing they are paid editors not out of malice, but because they simply don't know the paid-editing policy exists. Frankly, I'm tired of seeing articles and even draft articles PRODded or AfD'd or even speedied where the underlying reason for the nomination is that the initial or main contributor appears to have a COI and/or is suspected of being an undisclosed paid editor; such articles are often salvageable with only a moderate amount of editing by a more experienced (and non-COI) editor. —GrammarFascist _contribs^talk 13:48, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
• Strong oppose As User:Feminist points out, we are punishing our readers by deleting an article that is properly sourced and notable. If article is unworthy, take it to AfD. Find another way to punish the author of such articles, but don't punish the people who we are trying to serve. First Light (talk) 11:31, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• Strong support As is evident from cases such as Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Michael_Quinn_Sullivan — even in the face of concrete evidence is it difficult to delete paid pieces.
  Paid editing biases which articles are written, and what is included in them. Unless we as a community want to spend the rest of our days "fixing" shitty paid pieces we need to have a process to quickly and easily dispose of pages created by undisclosed paid editors.
  RileyBugz & A2soup — We must judge the creator in order to judge the content. By allowing paid pieces to stick around, we bias Wikipedia and force editors to do the handywork of special interests. We need to look not only at what Wikipedia is now, but what will become of Wikipedia. Either we allow this practice to continue and Wikipedia will turn into a cesspool of for-pay biographies, or we spend all our volunteer time fixing paid pieces, which in turn means people quit and Wikipedia still turns into a cesspool of paid editing. There is no way around it, we need to get rid of paid pieces, even if they are decent. Our ordinary protocol for deletion promotes "fixing problems", we can't have that approach to paid editing, it will be the end of us. Carl Fredrik ^talk 14:44, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
• Strong support Paid articles in violation of created in violation of Wikipedia terms of use need to be deleted.Allowing Wikipedia to fill up full of paid for promotional material has a very significant risk of harming our reputation and credibility.Firstly deletion is done in WP:G5 Creations by banned or blocked users is removed this is similar to that.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 16:21, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support per WP:Deletion review#3.1.1 Ball and Chain (restaurant) and FlightNetwork and other deleted articles. Thanks Cunard for demonstrating conclusively that only with this new rule in place can massive ToU violations, in this case hundreds of paid articles by a single sockfarm, be effectively addressed. ☆ Bri (talk) 07:20, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose Wheather an article was created by a paid editor is irrelevant. Deleting articles should always be determine through AfD process, not by the merits of the editor. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 07:54, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
• Support Some of the topics created by the paid editing rings may be "notable" by our current definitions. But so are many other topics that no-one will pay to insert into Wikipedia, and so are the topics of the existing articles most of which need further expansion and improvement. If we are all spending our time processing, reviewing, fixing and checking the paid editors' creations – including checking and evaluating every reference, because there can be no trust – then we are neglecting all those other topics, and WP will tilt towards becoming a commercial directory: Noyster (talk), 09:22, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Sticky PROD alternative

• How about a new "TOU sticky PROD" like we started for the BLP unsourced cleanup of a few years back? I hear not a whole lot of objection to leaving things around for a week, and we have time-based CSD-F? criteria that trigger after seven days. If we can get 1) eyes on the public process vs. having to ask for DRV 2) time for input, and 3) opportunities for objection or rescue if anyone really wants to. Ideally, this would still be reasonably expeditious, but available for more community review and input. Jclemens (talk) 02:00, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
  • BLPPROD has a (mostly) unambiguous and uncontentious path to removal: add a reliable source, and you can remove the template. When can a sticky-TOU prod be removed? When an editor in good standing says so - then when is a new editor's standing good enough? When an "unpaid" editor rewrites it, or says it's good enough - then how do you tell the difference between an include-all-subjects idealist and the 20,000-edit good-hand sockpuppet of the editor who created the article? —Cryptic 02:35, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
    • Hmm. Here's my first draft of how it would go:

      1) Any user in good standing (autoconfirmed) tags an article

      2) Article banner appears, category added, article added to list of tagged, etc. to notify community for one week of the issue.

      3) Any administrator can remove the tag at any time, either because the tagging was in error OR the article has been sufficiently cleaned up and neutral-ized, and such removal is logged in the file history and maybe somewhere else, too

      4) If no administrator has removed the tag after 168 hours, the article becomes deletion-eligible, and an admin can STILL review it and remove the tag... or delete it outright.

Note : The consensus is probably towards allowing Extended Confirmed users to remove the tag and therefore voters are requested not to hold this up in case administrator tag removal is what bothers you. And articles can only be tagged so if they were created and mostly edited by sockpuppet(s) who have been confirmed by checkuser evidence to have used multiple accounts or by editors who were explicitly blocked for paid editing. Jupitus Smart 16:26, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

• • • So, yeah, still a rough draft/work in progress. Jclemens (talk) 03:23, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
      • Oh, and nothing about this process would make an article immune to other CSD criteria (G5, G11, G12, etc.) or prevent it from being AfD'ed per normal process if it "fell out" of the process. Jclemens (talk) 03:25, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

The problem with autoconfirmed is that 7 days is more than the 4 days required to become an autoconfirmed user. So even if an editor decides to form an account after it is PRODed, he will be eligible to remove the tag, and many a times editors simply don't care enough to take it to AfD, ultimately defeating the cause. Jupitus Smart 03:38, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Jclemens' proposal above is to have autoconfirmed+ able to tag, but only admin+ to untag. —Cryptic 03:55, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

I am really sorry as it probably skipped my eyes. That is an even better proposal than mine. Jupitus Smart 03:59, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

• I am all for any proposal that does not entail going to AfD. AfD is a strenuous process, and if you go through some of the upwork jobs, there are companies willing to pay you to vote keep. It becomes harsh on the nominator who files the AfD's when well healed socks pile on logical votes, and you have to take the pains to research on all of them before refuting them. I am not sure why the 7 day period is an issue. Remaining for 7 days was not the issue when I created this CSD criteria, it was the surety (or the lack of it) of deletion. The 7 day period is okay with me if socks are not allowed to remove the tag. 20K edit sockpuppets are few, so we may set an arbitrary barrier equivalent to an Extended Confirmed user. All the well meaning people who would want to preserve well written articles (and have written such articles themselves) will fall under this. Jupitus Smart 03:19, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
  • On a related note, I was looking at all the creations of the sock I mentioned above. One of his socks have made large edits to Sunny Li. This was created by another sockpuppet editor (probably not related to him), and the only other major contributor is an IP. This is technically not eligible for G5 and I am not knowledgeable enough about Chinese pianists and would not want to take it to AfD where somebody might say that she satisfies WP:NPIANO and therefore this should be kept. Jupitus Smart 03:38, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Here is another example of what I want to avoid - Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tom Mooradian. This was created by one of the socks of this guy, and the AfD ended up getting support votes from 2 editors in standing. The amount of man hours wasted by the editors who inadvertently voted keep assuming good faith and those by the ones who voted delete is simply not worth the effort according to me. Jupitus Smart 04:03, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Less few than you might think. We've banned admins for paid editing, more for generalized sockpuppetry, and 100k-edit users for (unspecified) TOU violations. The 500 edits it takes to get extendedconfirmed on a primary account isn't just too flimsy a barrier for a minimally-savvy paid editor; it's no barrier at all. —Cryptic 04:14, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
    • I would wholeheartedly support a move that would allow only admins to DePROD. I would not want to be pessimistic already, so let me hope that there would be a consensus towards it. Jupitus Smart 04:41, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
      • A PROD that can only be removed by admins is a huge step above CSD in terms of the power of the deletion tag (a CSD may be removed by any uninvolved editor) and, as the first process in which uninvolved editors could not participate, would be an unprecedented change in Wikipedia deletion processes. A2soup (talk) 04:52, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
        • Oh, but they could. They can edit the article during the tagged week, argue for or against deletion on... well, the talk page, I guess. The entire point is to make it public and participatory, even if it is to be administrator-closed when all is said and done. Jclemens (talk) 05:12, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
          • Can Extended Confirmed be agreed as the middle ground @A2soup: and @Jclemens:. Bad EC users are expected to be few, and can be monitored for suspicious de-taggings (and/or Sockpuppetry). Jupitus Smart 05:33, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
            • I'd also support EC over admin being able to remove. An admin-only process invites this to be turned into a battleground between admins who have different views on what our inclusion standards should be for paid editing. Allowing more users to participate in the detagging I think would actually make it more likely for the bad content to be removed and would decrease the pressure on an admin as the final call because they would know that other users have had the practical chance to remove it as well. TonyBallioni (talk) 05:48, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
            • I went with admin on purpose. I don't expect it to be a tug-of-war, because I expected that once a TOU-sticky-prod was removed, the full AfD process would be invoked by anyone. I also expect admins to not do stupid things like mass-remove everything because "freedom!" or something like that: I have no such hope no EC user would do such a thing. The community can take my proposal any which way it wants--like everything else on Wikipedia, all I 'own' are my own contributions. I don't want it to be EASY to undo a good-faith TOU tagging; I want it to be hard, but transparent and with some time to fix problems that a speedy process doesn't allow. Jclemens (talk) 05:54, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
              • You don't do you? I wouldn't quite mass-remove such prods, but I would expect to patrol the list regularly, and probably remove a good many, if this were to be enacted. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 16:23, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

  I find User:Jupitus Smart's argument, wanting to avoid AfD because in the past it has been strenuous to convince others, highly unsatisfactory.
  In that AfD cited, User:Carrite, a respectable Wikipedian was unpersuaded by User:Bearcat's nomination and !voted "Keep". In the name of "consensus decision making", that demands more discussion demanding more mutual education by editors through that discussion. PROD and CSD are for objective things for which there is no point in discussion. If respectable Wikipedians can disagree, a discussion is necessary. If the discussion draws out sockpuppets and meatpuppets and members of rings of undisclosed paid editors, that is a good thing. It sounds like an essay on the merits of deleting undisclosed paid editor product is required, not an authority-heavy non-consensus deletion process. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:13, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

  I edit conflicted with SmokeyJoe in replying to Jclemens. SmokeyJoe's comment solidified the belief I was going to post: the problem stems from WP:DEL15: violations of the terms of use being a redlink. It is not seen by some as a valid deletion rationale, even if it is legally a prerequisite before we even get to local policy on en.wiki. If we could get that added, I think it would make the conversations on the technical means to enforce the terms of use much easier. TonyBallioni (talk) 06:21, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

  • The alternative of a PROD was suggested because it allows editors who disagree and who are in standing to remove the tag. The arguments for Keep were made by Carrite in good faith, and did not have much substance which was the reason why the article was ultimately deleted. The watered down proposal is in itself better than the current scenario, because it makes the drama at AfD required for only strictly essential cases. So even though I would not AfD Sunny Li (or other such articles) because I don't want to waste my time arguing in a field where I am not knowledgeable about the different WP:NWHATEVER, I can always do the new PROD, and wait for Carrite or other such good users to remove the tag with a valid reason. This gives me an idea about the suitability of taking it to AfD if I still disagree, which would not be available if a new user removes the PROD tag without any explanation (and since PRODs can only be done once, I am realistically left with only AfD). Jupitus Smart 06:28, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
• I hope something can be done about ToU violations so would prefer not to be raising difficulties. I'm unhappy at the idea that a ToU tag could be placed so easily (autoconfirmed+). WP:G4 tags are frequently placed with no evidence and such tagging seems not to be deprecated.[3] Placing such a tag should be regarded as disruptive unless there is some adequate basis. For example, shills of the firm's/person's opponents shouldn't get an easy ride. Thincat (talk) 07:53, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
  • From what I understand, the PROD follows the criteria for nomination, as the CSD above. It is possible only when the creator of the article is blocked for confirmed sockpuppetry/paid editing, which would mean that frivolous nominations would not be possible. Jupitus Smart 08:11, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
    • OK, I hadn't understood then. If the criterion is definite then my objection doesn't apply. Thank you. Thincat (talk) 09:17, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
      • Jupitus Smart, Exactly who confirms that "paid editing" has taken place? In any case i do not trust our current SPI system to identify sockpuppets with a reasonable level of assurance, unless by "confirmed" you mean "confirmed by checkuser evidence" and if you do the proposal should say that. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 16:19, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
        • Yes that is exactly what I intended @DESiegel: as can be gauged from the example of KuwarOnline that I presented. But I suppose its better to be more technically correct and I will append your words as is. Jupitus Smart 16:26, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support User:Jclemens suggestion. Would also be good to get the notice of concerns fully visible on mobile. But that will likely require a different process. Admin involvement is key to prevent interference from further socks such as we so often see at AfD. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:27, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support Jclemens but with conditions. A guideline is drawn up explaining how the tag can placed legitimately (autoconfirmed user, creator blocked for paid editing, article still "spam") explaining misuse is disruptive. Also, the deleting admin must look at state of article, talk page and history (in case no admin has previously done so), i.e. no speedy deletion of articles with unremoved tags. Question: what procedure for undeletion: WP:DRV or WP:REFUND? Thincat (talk) 11:00, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
• Comment - So in the Jclemens proposal (and per their clarifications in the above discussion), the article is tagged by anyone, editors argue for and against deletion on the talk page for a week, the article may be improved/fixed during this week, and then an administrator makes an assessment and close at the end. Pardon me if I'm being dense, but that's just a poorly-organized AfD, no? Just send the article to AfD and the process is literally identical. Am I missing something? A2soup (talk) 14:49, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
  • AfD defaults to keep and involves other sorts of arguments (notability, etc.) while what I'm proposing has some of the safeguards, but defaults to delete unless rationale is demonstrably false OR the article is rewritten, possibly as much by "from scratch" in the interim. I admit it's not hugely far, but AfD looks at different things and considers different possibilities rather than "Is this COI article rewritable, or shall we just nuke it?" Jclemens (talk) 14:47, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
    • AfD does look at different things, but isn't "Is this COI article rewritable, or shall we just nuke it?" definitely within the current scope of AfD? I'm far from a regular there, but I feel like there are often discussions along those very lines. And if the article isn't notable, might as well figure that out at the same time you hash out the COI issues. No sense having a weeklong discussion about an article and keeping it at the end if it isn't notable. A2soup (talk) 14:54, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
    • PROD's generally do not involve any discussion. We PROD, and if it is notable somebody improves it, and an EC user or the reviewing admin who evaluates it at the end of 7 days removes the tag, if they feel notability has been achieved. This defaults to keep as well, but removes the need for unnecessary long drawn out discussions at AfD. In the end the encyclopedia probably gains, as the editors can use the time wasted at AfD improving articles.Jupitus Smart 15:10, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
  • My experience with AFD for COI or promotion issues can, almost without exception, be summarized as "keep, has sources, afd is not cleanup". Once in a great while, an article can be deleted on WP:TNT grounds there, but there's a better-than-even chance that when the beyond-any-sane-doubt paid editor recreates it verbatim, it'll get kept the second time. I'll call out Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Basedow (2nd nomination) as a particularly blatant example. G11 is the only tool we have of any efficacy at all. —Cryptic 15:49, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
    • That is because, under current policy, COI is not a reason to delete, and promotion is not a reason either if the article has been edited to be neutral in content, is supported by reliable sources, and the topic is notable. This was a good keep.This proposal would change those policies, i suppose (which may mean that discussion here would only be a first step. However, i have seen quite a few articles brought to AfD largely for COI/Promotion deleted on the grounds of notability. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nancy Ruth (singer) was a recent case in point. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 16:15, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
    • As is so often the case the account fighting for keep turns out to be a sock[4]. This is not so much about is COI a reason for deletion but should content that is promotional and created by an army of socks be deleted? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:09, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
      • Promotional content can be removed from articles now, and it is all the time, by normal editing. Wholly promotional articles that cannot be cured by copy editing can be and often are deleted under CSD G11, in both cases with no regard to who created or edited the article. So far as I can see the only effect of this proposal would be to authorize the deletion of valid, neutral articles because of who created them. (If they aren't valid neutral articles, they can be deleted without this proposal). DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 16:41, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
      • Before we go any further, would you agree that the same thing is valid for G5 as well @DESiegel: (that it also involves deletion based on who created it instead of the content). And if the answer is Yes, should we abolish that as well. Jupitus Smart 16:48, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
        • Yes it does, Jupitus Smart, and if you look up to the G5 section on this very page, you will find me arguing to abolish G5 on exactly those grounds. I am consistent. As it stands, G5 has consensus, but I will never delete anything so tagged. I won't remove such tags, but i don't choose to act on them. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 17:48, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
          • Then we should agree to disagree. G5 has its share of proponents and I am one of the editors treading the fine line between WP:PRESERVE and G5. It means that I would tag for G5 only if I personally feel that the article was made in bad faith and we can do without the article (This is just my personal opinion). This is the reason why I have been flexible enough to write into the draft, most of the fail safe mechanisms that were presented above to prevent abuse. Best. Jupitus Smart 18:03, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support despite what has been argued above, promotion is a actually a reason to delete under current policy beyond just G11, as WP:N, WP:NOT, WP:DEL4, and WP:DEL14 make clear and this can be argued in an AfD even if G11 has been declined or as is more often the case, the nom feels it isn't overtly G11. Some closers don't like the argument, others do, but pretending that it isn't a valid reading of policy isn't helpful to the conversation. Violations of the TOU are almost always promotional in intent and as has been mentioned above, since we aren't a startup anymore, simply having a listing here can be promotion. Creating a sticky PROD for undeclared paid editing makes sense from local policy as it stands now, and terms of use are above any local policy anyway barring consensus to explicitly make an exception to this, which does not exist. Support this as a compromise between AfD and CSD. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:49, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

• I sad that promotion is not a reason either if the article has been edited to be neutral in content, is supported by reliable sources, and the topic is notable. I don't think any of the policies you mention authorizes deletion when the article has been edited to be neutral. If one does, please quote the wording. Promotion can be a reason to delete beyond G11, but not beyond editing for a factual, neutral article, even if its existence has some promotional effect. Otherwise we would need to delete all articles on fortune-500 companies. They all have some promotional effect. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 17:56, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
  • The proposed draft addresses that, in it allows the PROD to be rejected if it is edited to become neutral (albeit the removal can only be done by an EC user). The only realistic goal of the draft PROD now is to reduce the number of AfDs besides provide an avenue for deleting many promotional articles created by blocked users. If these articles can be improved after tagging it is ultimately the encyclopedia that wins, otherwise they end up deleted. Cheers. Jupitus Smart 18:13, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia articles about a company or organization are not an extension of their website or other social media marketing efforts. [...] Those promoting causes or events, or issuing public service announcements, even if noncommercial, should use a forum other than Wikipedia to do so. Contributors must disclose any payments they receive for editing Wikipedia. per WP:NOT, which is listed as a reason for deletion at WP:DEL14 and WP:N. We aren't talking about Fortune 500s here. We're talking about startups and local restaurants where Wikipedia would be more high profile coverage than anything they had every received before. If an editor feels that there are enough factors on another side that might warrant keeping, they can remove the PROD and an AfD will happen to resolve the tension in our policies and find consensus. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:30, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

• Comment The proposed deletion template is useful, but too easy to remove. One approach would be to have a template which proposed deletion, and a 'bot which, when it detected deletion of a PROD template, would check who deleted it. If it was the article creator, a new editor, or an editor with an SPA editing pattern, it would automatically start an AfD and send out the appropriate notifications. John Nagle (talk) 20:02, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
  • My original proposal had an admin-only removal clause, but adding something like this with appropriate automated support would clearly serve a similar purpose. Jclemens (talk) 22:07, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Traits of any solution.

Here's some things I think I want to see in any solution:

• Public I don't like insta-speedy because it could be more abusable than an open process. Public has the benefit of also providing negative reinforcement to correctly identified TOU violations, but also has the possibility of improper visibility to falsely named articles and their subjects, which leads to...
• Thresholded (was that a word before? It is now) that is to say that we don't accept nominations/accusations from new accounts or IPs, because it's a serious allegation and we don't want people using this when G11 is really what they should be using. Likewise, I propose a high threshold for clearing an accused article for continued existence, thus...
• Inevitable while not automatic, I want things that really are TOU violations to be deleted unless there's a clear indication (not necessarily 'consensus', but admin judgment) that the article should stay.

If what I've proposed above doesn't meet these goals ideally, or if there are other goals you want to see added or substituted, by all means, let's improve the ideas... Jclemens (talk) 22:07, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

• • "TOU violations to be deleted ... not necessarily 'consensus', but admin judgment". This sounds very much like "admins know best, let admins make the decisions". It implies acknowledgement that the community is not behind "TOU violations to be deleted", and so the community is to be removed from the decision making process. No. Admins do not get this power. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:26, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

The old "let the community decide" mentality worked when Wikipedia (and even the internet) was new. But it is a failed ideology now that these things are ingrained in society. WP needs a hierarchy. The community, when it grows to this size, does not know best. Kellymoat (talk) 02:07, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

The internet was not new when Wikipedia was born. And Wikipedia was larger, in terms of the number of active editors, 5 years ago. Any such hierarchy is in violation of fundamental policy here. It would require Foundation approval, and if approved, would doom the project by driving away the second-class editors (as designated by such a change), who do the vast majority of the work. Indeed IP editors make a substantial part o the productive edits in article space. Indeed to enact such a rule would IMO violate the current policy WP:ADMIN which says: Stated simply, while the correct use of the tools and appropriate conduct should be considered important, merely "being an administrator" should not be. Simply not acceptable. A threshold of ECU might possibly be acceptable, although i still oppose the whole idea. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 03:52, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

• SmokeyJoe, no more than administrators are needed to delete any other process, be it XfD, PROD, or CSD. The idea is to have more public input than CSD, but not as ambiguous an outcome as XfD. Jclemens (talk) 04:12, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

• XfD is about consensus decision making, and is the process required of there is a history of disagreement. PROD is deliberately very soft, anyone can remove the PROD for any reason or no reason, meaning and XfD is required. BLPPROD, OK, adding a single reference is a pretty low requirement, nowhere near as complicated as paid articles that are more likely to be reference bombed. Admins are not supposed to be there to make executive decisions. The way to do this, I think, is on every TOU block, to initiate a group listing AfD on every article created by that account. Then see how community consensus develops. Isolated AfDs are too isolated. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:22, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support We have to enforce the terms of use. jcc (tea and biscuits) 12:13, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

jcc - I see your 'support' at the top section and at the PROD alternative so is there a preference or just a desire for something and either will do or what  ? Markbassett (talk) 19:22, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

@Markbassett: I would prefer the top proposal, but yes, I think something should be done so I'm happy if either of proposals get enacted. jcc (tea and biscuits) 21:13, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

• So there are a class of articles (created with a COI) that do NOT get regularly deleted at AfD and thus we are discussing if they should be speedied or PRODed? Shouldn't it be the other way around? We should Speedy/PROD something that is a obvios AfD deletion? (I admit I only read here and there, the discussion is already long, so if I missed some explanation on that please just point that'away) - Nabla (talk) 23:10, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

@Nabla: I am not sure I comprehended the question correctly, but I will attempt an answer on what I understood. The question probably is should the article revert to Keep in an AfD, can it be allowed to be PRODed/CSDed. The existing rules should probably apply in this case. In case of a PROD, as with all PRODs, once an AfD has been done, the new PROD should not be applicable. In case of a CSD, there are no restrictions, and recently I saw an AfD which was about to be closed as Keep, but just before that it was identified as G5 material and deleted (it was probably re-created by an admin later). The other aspect of how your question can be construed is probably what was really asked - should we delete as a PROD/CSD if it is bound to pass AfD. As with the example I mentioned, even if an article reverts to keep, we would not hesitate to delete it as G5 (even though the said article was re-created, it was probably because it was about something very obviously notable like a Congressional district - I don't seem to remember who the involved admin was else I would have presented the link). The same should apply here probably. Best. Jupitus Smart 08:55, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

@Jupitus Smart:, I think I understood your point. It does not mean that I agree (or not), but at least it now makes sense to me, Thank you! Iy would be interesting to know if the equivalent of G5 was already commonly deleted at AfD, before the creation of that speedy deletion criterion. But I admit I will not take the trouble to find it out, so I am _not_ asking anyone to do it either. - Nabla (talk) 19:00, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support in general, the broad idea of a modified PROD. It seems to me that more discussion will be needed to flesh out the details, so I'm supporting the general idea, rather than any specific proposal. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:23, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose What I'm seeing is that a TOU violation gets to stay on Wikipedia for a week. While, yes, it could possibly be edited and changed to fall within the TOU, it still essentially gets to stay on Wikipedia for a week, during which time the page, for starters, could be archived by the Internet Archive or Archive.is or something like that. In my time of editing here, I haven't yet seen someone create an make an undisclosed paid contribution that wasn't obvious advertising, which falls under WP:G11 (and, depending on the content, WP:G12). If someone did make one without advertising, how would they get caught so we could even apply the template? Even if they were a sockpuppet, that would fall under WP:G5 as a creation by a banned or blocked user. Many of the things I put up in my oppose to the first proposal apply here as well, so forgive me if I left out a couple things here. — Gestrid (talk) 03:43, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Staying for 7 days is better than staying forever. Though a great many articles will fall under G11/12/5, with experience many paid editors have become better at their trade and their articles would not fall under any of the above criteria. Many examples of such cases have been presented above and you could read through to note them. The most recent case I encountered is Kirk B. Jensen, which had its G5 rejected because it was formed as a result of a draft histmerge (the main author was a G5 eligible sockpuppet, but since a one edit user removed the spam and created this, G5 was disallowed). I am not seeing G11 or G12 as well. Maybe it will be deleted in AfD, but I am not sure about the criteria I should provide, so in effect the article stays because I know my deletion rationale might be countered with a WP:NAUTHOR or WP:NPROF, both of which fall in areas where I am not really sure about how the criteria are usually applied. That's one of the reasons why the new criteria might be required. Jupitus Smart 08:44, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Another example of an amusing G5 rejection. Gestrid, you said "What I'm seeing is that a TOU violation gets to stay on Wikipedia for a week." Articles eligible for speedy deletion would still be eligible. The proposal is to merely supplement the existing tools by making the remaining articles (which usually violate the core policies in subtle ways) deleted by default after 7 days unless someone takes the responsibility for removing the PROD. It's a small step, but a step in the right direction. Rentier (talk) 10:52, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

User:Rentier That article also contained outing. The person's birthdate was published without a reliable source. Have removed this from Jaimie Hilfiger but likely needs oversight. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:55, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose the specific proposal, Draftify (or AfC) is better (and can Salt if admin only lockout needed) would be a better method without inventing new PROD : the criteria for removing the stickyPROD is? The reasoning for keeping such content created in violation of ToU in articlespace for an extra week is? My new analysis at WP:BOGOF is that we want to put the burden back on the paid editors (to do the work, and disclose etc) and the crucial aspect is it has to be easy for editors, not a burden to admins (or fall foul of a lack of consensus across inclusionist-deletionist admin spectrum) to move the content out of articlespace immediately, and then can deliberate on the fate? Gestrid is right. Widefox; talk 18:54, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support in clear-cut cases especially when there is considerably outweighing advertising or when it would clearly be for the encyclopedia's benefit. Our deletions policies are clear about this so this would be adding on it; Our pillars themselves make clear we will not accept webhosted advertising. I would support the exception of Drafting improvable contents. I certainly wouldn't support moving all of then in Draftspace in lieu of deletion since that would be aiding their policy violations. SwisterTwister talk 07:42, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose It is not a responsibility of our administrators to enforce TOU. It is a responsibility of WMF which has its own staff. Ruslik_Zero 18:59, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Well, as nice as it would be to have the WMF devote paid staff time to things like their legal obligation to not host copyrighted content, that isn't the case. Copyvio is first and foremost a legal issue/TOU issue. We have empowered our volunteer administrators to do this task via local policy. Saying that something is the job of the WMF does not preclude our enforcing something locally. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:47, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
    • It also assumes that the WMF will get round to doing that. In my relatively short experience here I've seen that the WMF, usually, not always, is about as useful as a trapdoor in a canoe. DrStrauss talk 18:58, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support. It is absolutely and unquestionably the responsibility of our administrators to enforce the TOU when (as in this case) violations potentially endanger the reputation and value of Wikipedia as a whole. However, I strongly prefer a more broadly-worded "burn it with fire without even looking at it" approach to all contributions from undisclosed paid editors. Undisclosed paid editors are a threat to the entire project; every edit they make, without exception, hurts and endangers the project as a whole and should be instantly excised without regard for content on discovery. The slim benefits of allowing some edits to remain do not come anywhere close to the serious threat to the project as a whole that every single paid edit, without exception, is inevitably a part of. This suggestion would fall short of that and is therefore insufficient, but it would be at least a step in the right direction. --Aquillion (talk) 01:34, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support largely per Kudpung, above. I was going to oppose on the grounds that G12 and G5 can take care of everything, but after a little thought realized that is not the case. Consider the following: a paid editor, who is not a sock, creates a string of articles. They fall short of G12, but are promotional in nature. PROD is tried, and removed by the creator. The creator is then discovered, and blocked. Even if PROD was not tried before, a PROD tag applied after could be removed by an IP or drive-by editor, and such an edit would not be enough to revert on the suspicion of socking. Their creations are no longer eligible for PROD or CSD. In my experience (involving some guesswork, of course) this is a not-uncommon scenario; there are numerous articles that are clearly promotional in intent but whose language is borderline. Of course this criterion will only help deal with a small subset of those, but every little bit helps. Vanamonde (talk) 05:01, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. Identification of who is and who is not an undisclosed paid editor has far too high a rate of false positives (and maybe false negatives also), especially as disclosure may be retroactive. The rules for this are complicated, will attach stigma to content based on its author not its reliability and unlike some others in this discussion I see that as a Very Bad Thing as that stigma will rapidly transfer to all editors of a page, regardless of whether they are suspected of being undisclosed paid editors or not. And anyway, much of what this could apply to will be speedy deletable under criterion G5 anyway. Thryduulf (talk) 07:55, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support. Paid articles introduce promotional bias. The bias is rarely fully removed by editing despite huge effort expended on verifying and attempting to fix these generally non-notable and borderline-notable articles. An effort, I must add, that encourages paid editors to insert even more promotional content into Wikipedia. One undisclosed paid editing company boasts: "Our Wikipedia veterans create or correct it in a way that it conforms to all Wikipedia policies and sticks on the wiki, even gets updated for free by the Wikipedia volunteers later on." Just take a look at the sockfarms discovered in the last week here, here, here, here, and here. Hundreds of articles. One false positive that was promptly identified. A "sticky prod" is too little too late, but it's better than nothing. Rentier (talk) 11:31, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support as less-controversial alternative, only if the more consequent and efficient proposal about speedy deletions fails. GermanJoe (talk) 17:08, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose-- Try and imagine a perfect world in which volunteer editors and paid editors created articles that were virtually indistinguishable from one another. They were equally about notable subjects, written equally from a neutral point of view, had excellent third party sources. For what possible reason would you still oppose articles created by paid editors? Except for this one area which is against TOU, these articles unquestionably enhance the encyclopedia. Cant those who voted Support understand this logic? I know this is not a perfect world, and the chances of paid articles being written about non-notable subjects in a promotional style are much higher, and therefore there exist many rules on Wikipedia to control those kinds of articles. Summarily deleting well-written articles about notable subjects solely because a suspected paid editor wrote them seems like shooting ourselves in the foot. I believe very strongly that articles should be judged on their own merit, just like people. It was not so long ago that people were judged based on their origins, and not on their own merits. Society suffered from this behavior, since fantastic people from "problematic" backgrounds were not allowed to succeed. Oh wait, did I use the past tense? Hmmm, I think this kind of mentality is still rampant in the greater society, and exists even more so in the mini-universe of the subculture called Wikipedia. The conclusion? It is all about power: who has it, who doesn't, and how can the ones in power assert their power over those that don't. The longer I spend on Wikipedia the more I see this place as the farthest thing from a libertarian, egalitarian, meritocracy as can be imagined. Have you ever wondered why about 10% of editors are women? If you would like to learn more abut that you can go here, here, and here. There is also a problem with content about women on the encyclopedia. Look here, and here. I for one, would not care if more excellent articles went up on Wikipedia about women, even if paid editors wrote them or even sock puppets. I know that is a radical view here, but extraordinary times call for extraordinary methods. DaringDonna (talk) 21:27, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
• Very strongly support for the following reasons:

1. Paid editing goes against the spirit of Wikipedia. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a form of promotion.
2. The amount of absolute guff that comes into the New Pages Feed which is clearly from COI editors that can’t be speedied because it doesn’t fit G11 is astounding as Kudpung says.
3. The future of Wikipedia has to be taken into account. ACTRIAL is now underway and it is something that I believe to be essential to the survival of Wikipedia. Once upon a time, if you said “I read it on Wikipedia” you would be laughed at. In recent years, Wikipedia has been allowed by some exam boards in the UK as a citeable source. If this influx of junk continues, that will no longer be the case. This proposal is similarly important for the same reason.
4. It sends a message. “If you violate our Terms of Use, your gubbins gets deleted.” Not “you can degrade an extraordinary work of collaboration into a soapbox because we want to hang on to some anarchistic ideology.”
5. It’s perfectly plausible. We can still retain WP:AGF but use common sense similar to the WP:DUCK test. It requires no software changes. DrStrauss talk 19:13, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

• Strong support - oh what a blessing it will be for NPP and AfD - much needed!! ^{Atsme📞📧} 02:15, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support -- having paid articles in the mainspace is disruptive; this is the best way to deal with this issue. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:17, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
• weak oppose on a procedural basis. This too would be a major change and consensus for this shouldn't be found without its own RfC. That said, I certainly like this better and might even support it on it's own (I'd need to think on it more). Hobit (talk) 16:02, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
• Strong support as it seems the above proposal won't pass. We need a more proactive approach to undeclared paid editing, and we need to make sure our terms of use aren't just a dead letter. Daß Wölf 02:25, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose - We already have adequate mechanisms to challenge pure advertising or material of dubious notability. Carrite (talk) 05:13, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support - as long as there is mechanism whereby the PROD can be contested by anybody but the creator, so that we can start an AfD discussion in case there is a consensus to keep the article. Otherwise, how would we know if there is consensus against deletion? RileyBugz^会話_投稿記録 15:16, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.