Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard

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Fringe theories noticeboard - dealing with all sorts of pseudoscience
Before posting, make sure you understand this short summary of relevant policies and advice and particularly the guideline on treating fringe theories. Also, check the archives for similar discussions. We can help determine whether the topic is fringe and if so, whether it is treated accurately and impartially. Our purpose is not to remove any mention of fringe theories, but to describe them properly. Never present fringe theories as fact. If you mention specific editors, you should notify them. You may use {{subst:ftn-notice}} to do so. Deploy {{talk fringe|the fringe theory name}} to articles' talkpages under discussion. Please also notify any relevant Wikiprojects to encourage an increased visibility for the discussion.
Search this noticeboard & archives Lowercase sigmabot III will archive sections older than 20 days Additional notes: Discussion of fringe theories will only depend on coverage in reliable sources. Medicine-related claims must comply with more stringent sourcing requirements, but we also generally prefer academic sources. We are not a forum to discuss fringe theories as such. Our goal is to improve articles about them, or create new ones if needed. For concerns about neutrality in articles not about fringe theories, use the neutral point of view noticeboard. Report article content that appears to violate the no original research rule at this noticeboard. Paste {{Resolved|Your reason here ~~~~}} at the top of the section when your concern was addressed.
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Melanesia and Melanesians

Both pages have been constantly targeted by IPs pushing for a terminological revisionism that is partly based on racializing arguments. Things like "dark skin pigmentation, "curly hair" are brought into play to redefine the well-established scope of a geographical region (see Talk:Melanesia; note that historically, the term "Melanesia" was indeed coined with racial undertones, but this has long been discarded; the term continues to be used in scholarship and geopolitics, but entirely without the racialist baggage). Austronesier (talk) 20:22, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Does anyone know if there's a policy about genetics in ethnicity articles? I've removed bunch of weird haplogroup stuff from a number of ethnicity's articles, because it almost always comes off as genetic essentialism or y-haplogroup is the same as ethnicity, but i don't know enough about human genetics to know if there is a potentially appropriate reason to include it—blindlynx 19:26, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

@Blindlynx: As far as I know, there is no policy about the inclusion of such material in general, but at least this RfC about sourcing:

• Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_249#RfC:Genetics_references.

I'm not sure if we need a dedicated policy, but much of the mess we can see in many articles can be tackled with WP:DUE and WP:SYNTH. There are some editors who focus on group X (an ethnic group, a geographically defined population etc.), comb through all possible sources for genetic data about it and add everything that can be extracted, even it is only mentioned in passing or just one out of hundreds of data points and actually not related to actual topic of the study. Or they read one study, and again extract all data points and distribute them to dozens of articles about ethnic groups, geographical areas etc. without considering due weight, and often linking data in a WP:SYNTH manner.

Usually, genetic studies have a specific spatiotemporal scope, covering a geographical area over a certain stretch of time. E.g. in the case of Oceania, there are good studies that indeed cover the genetic history of Oceania, allowing to build an article about the Genetic history of Oceania; oddly enough, still a red link, but actually not surprising when you consider that the number of ethnochauvinist Oceanians in WP is apparently much lower when compared to the usual suspects in contentious topic areas ;)

A few genetic studies indeed specifically address single ethnic groups for various reasons. Sometimes, they just fall into the great amount of scholarship that has been triggered by identity-seeking (write about the genetic history of Hungary and you can be sure to get lots of public attention). Or there is genuine scholarly interest in an ethnic group that occupies an isolated position from a general anthropological viewpoint (not just limited to biological anthropology), e.g. in the case of this study[1].

Writing a topical guideline (as an essay first) might be a good solution (there is a comaparable project in User:Joe_Roe/Archaeology_conventions#Archaeogenetics). WT:ETHNIC is the best place to initiate something if you're interested (I defintely am, but have little time for WP right now). –Austronesier (talk) 10:31, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Amazing, thank you! I'll ask around there—blindlynx 23:42, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Junkyard tornado

• Junkyard tornado (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

I object to the facts that the article 1. calls creationists "critics" of evolution, giving them undeserved credit, and 2. says that the junkyard tornado has been "labeled" a fallacy, calling doubt on its status as such. For those judgments, I hear I am the only one saying [the article is] overly lenient. Which tells me that not enough FTN regulars are commenting there to balance the WP:VOTE that Wikipedia Talk pages are not supposed to be. --Hob Gadling (talk) 20:05, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

You can just edit it, you know? I took a look and it was pretty grossly biased. Did my best to neutralize it though, take a look and see what you think. AtFirstLight (talk) 23:31, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

I did edit it and was reverted. Just like you were, just now. I am just following WP:BRD.

You should read WP:YWAB. Bullshit is not "philosophy". Well, not all bullshit is. --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:29, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Editor continues to move the article towards "some say this, some say that". [2]. Refuses to use the Talk page for article-improvement discussion [3] [4], instead reverts the edits they refuse to argue against. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:02, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Editor continues to edit for WP:NPOV. AtFirstLight (talk) 07:08, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Because Wikipedia needs to stay neutral on the questions of

• whether evolutionary biologists really say that life as it is really sprang into being in one extremely unlikely single event, as Hoyle assumed, or not,
• whether creationists really use Hoyle's reasoning, as Musgravce documents, or not.

You urgently need to read up on the WP: links people give you. NPOV does not say what you think it does. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:19, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

i edited the introduction to the page and added several legitimate sources, because despite the fact that it is in the religious philosophy category it is just silly to pretend that this can be called a "theory" and a legit criticism of evolutionary theory RosieBaroque (talk) 01:32, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I have partial-blocked one editor from the article for a month for persistent tendentious and aggressive pro-fringe editing. Bishonen | tålk 08:20, 6 May 2023 (UTC).

Hallwang Clinic

Some proposed whitewashing happening at Hallwang Clinic. Also, generally the article could probably use some improvements. ScienceFlyer (talk) 04:32, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Chicxulub crater

GSHD2023 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) keeps edit warring Chicxulub crater to add reference to a 2021 conference abstract that claims that the Chicxulub impact was not responsible for the Cretaceous–Paleogene boundary layer, and that the Chicxulub impactor was an iron asteroid. I've never seen these ideas entertained or even mentioned in any actual scientific papers, and conference abstracts in my experience are a magnet for crank/fringe theories, as they are effectively self-published. In my opinion, including any reference to this abstract is completely undue and PROFRINGE. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:14, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

It's not even clear to be that the author of the abstract, Gerhard Schmidt, is even a published scientist, as the abstract doesn't even list an institutional affiliation [5], and no research papers come up on scholar when I search his name relevant to asteroids (though there is plently of self-published stuff on researchgate). Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:24, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

I've researched further, and he does seem to have published some papers on the topic, but they were decades ago, and all of his recent "publications" are conference abstracts or posters, which is not a good sign. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:36, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Primary sources, e.g. conference abstracts, posters, and so forth authored by a single author as used in the edits are not acceptable as Wikipedia sources. Wikipedia needs additional independent and reliable secondary / tertiary sources that document and evaluate the the notability of the ideas proposed by the posted sources.

By the way, the user name, "GSHD2023" is uncomfortably close enought to being an abbreviation of "Gerhard ScHmiDt" that there possibly might be a conflict of interest involved. Paul H. (talk) 02:24, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

I think there is good reason to suspect COI. They've also added some stuff to the German wiki article, though briefly looking at a Google translated version of that article it seems to have a multitude of problems. Hemiauchenia (talk) 04:27, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

HD is the car licence tag of Heidelberg and that is where Schmidt works [6] (I think that is him; it is a very common name), which makes for a more plausible meaning of GSHD. --Hob Gadling (talk) 10:04, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Green Man

I always thought I knew what "Green Man" meant. Now I'm not so sure after reading this Slate article.[7] where independent scholar (who has a book published by Cambridge University Press) says "I spend a lot of my time trying to debunk the idea that the Green Man is an ancient figure from British folklore. He’s a made-up figure of 20th-century folklore." The article itself calls it "a folkloric or mythological figure" but also says " Lady Raglan coined the term "Green Man" for this type of architectural feature in her 1939 article The Green Man in Church Architecture in The Folklore Journal. "

The history section starts with discussing a book by Mike Harding, "an English singer, songwriter, comedian, author, poet, broadcaster and multi-instrumentalist. Harding has also been a photographer, traveller, filmmaker and playwright." I see it uses a recent letter to the Guardian from a Stephen Green, who published through Cambridge Scholars.[8] I don't have time to look at all the sources, but a quick glance suggests that a lot are unreliable. And am I wrong in thinking the article seems to link different concepts? Doug Weller talk 08:30, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

I would say that it is more of a decorative and artistic motif used on churches than a mythological figure, and the article should reflect that. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:50, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

From Lady Raglan's article, page 47: "Sir Albert Seward, who has made a special study of the chapter-house at Southwall, where there is a number of 'Green Men,' has found a great variety of foliage there, and I have myself noticed a good deal of poison ivy, always a sacred herb." I should point out that Toxicodendron is not found in Europe, being confined to North America and a strip along the East Asian coast from Sakhalin to Taiwan. Mangoe (talk) 01:38, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, one of the sources (I think the New Yorker article) described her theory as "total bunk", which I'm having a hard time disagreeing with. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:24, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

My attempt to fix the article has been reverted by @Wuerzele:. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:19, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Discussion ongoing at Talk:Green_Man#Article_remains_a_mess... if anyone wants to comment. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:37, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Maryanne Demasi

There has been a user with about 12 IPs trying to remove references from this article going back 3 months. Basically it was discovered that Maryanne Demasi had duplicated some data based on her PhD dissertation. The paper was later retracted. According to the journal "This article has been retracted by the publisher. An investigation by the Journal determined the following. In Fig 4, the “no LPS” lanes in the GAPDH Northern blots were duplicated between normoxic and hypoxic conditions." [9]. The IP is repeatedly removing "determined" from the article and is claiming duplication is only "alleged".

The same IP is also removing references from the article claiming they are part of a conspiracy to smear Maryanne Demasi. I think some extra eyes are needed on this article because there has been repeated attempts at removing certain sources going back 4 months. Psychologist Guy (talk) 02:26, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Robert F. Marx‎

I changed the short description from "American scuba diver (1936–2019)" to "American scuba diver (1936–2019) and writer about White gods" as that's an important aspect of his work (which wasn't even mentioned in the lead despite having its own section. User:GhostInTheMachine reverted me. In any case, "scuba diver" which GITM had added isn't adequate. Note I also made other changes.[10] Doug Weller talk 11:25, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

What's the WP:MOS rule for whether to capitalize "white" in this context? Do most sources capitalize the word? It looks a little cringe to me. jps (talk) 13:37, 8 May 2023 (UTC)W

MOS:RACECAPS, which says to be consistent within an article. Donald Albury 14:45, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

In White gods, it is consistently "white", so I would argue for lower-case in the above case. Donald Albury 14:47, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. And I see lower case in most sources, at least those I could read. My bad. Doug Weller talk 16:22, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Callahan, Tim (2008). "A New Mythology". Skeptic. Vol. 13, no. 4. wplibrary. But when i see the phrase "white gods" it's this which comes to mind and not pre-Columbian contact pseudoarcheology per Shermer and Callahan.

You might find better sources for Heyerdahl in this review of Thor Heyerdahl og jakten på Atlantis from Kon-Tiki Museum, instead of using an article published in The Drama Review. fiveby(zero) 16:35, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

See you already had Callahan in Marx, but not in white gods. Fritze, Ronald H. (1993). "White God Legends". Legend and lore of the Americas before 1492. Davies, Nigel (1979). "White Gods with Black Faces". Voyagers to the New World. Really don't see "extensive writing on white gods", but one opportunistic Columbus Quincentenary work. Diver, treasure hunter, pseudo/amateur archeologist. fiveby(zero) 18:24, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

@Fiveby The Kon-Tiki Museum is, I believe, biassed. The authors of that review are Reidar Solsvik who is an archaeologist and Curator of the Kon-Tiki Museum andEirik Stokke is a lecturer and is studying for a MA Degree in the history (of something, I can't see the rest).I agree with your summary description of Marx. I have: Norbeck, Edward (1953). "Review of American Indians in the Pacific". American Antiquity. 19 (1): 92–94 and several other reviews. Not about white gods, but the book Hunt, Terry (2011). The Statues That Walked: Unraveling the Mystery of Easter Island. Free Press sasys "\This is the tack taken by Thor Heyerdahl, who was convinced that Incan colonists from South America were the makers of the ahu and statues. His assumption goes even further, also claiming that the Incans responsible for the cultural florescence on Rapa Nui were ultimately the descendants of colonists with European origins who taught Native Americans the secrets of “advanced culture.”2 For Heyerdahl, simply tracing the “cause” of Rapa Nui culture back to Europe solved the apparent paradox of cultural achievement. Leaving its racist assumptions aside, empirical support for this argument is entirely lacking." p110

Thor Heyerdahl's The White Gods Caucasian Elements In Pre Inca Peru can be downloaded here.[11] Doug Weller talk 16:24, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm just being a best sources snob. Hunt is better than a professor of theater history published in TDR: The Drama Review. But look at the "2" in your quote, he's citing Moore, Thomas (April 2, 1990). "Thor Heyerdahl: Sailing Against the Current". Us News & World Report. Reading that Kon-Tiki Museum article leads me to believe you should be citing Ralling Kon-Tiki Man which i can't find online, and/or Axel Andersson A Hero for the Atomic Age, or "Resan ut, resan in: Den unge Thor Heyerdahl och det mystiska folket". fiveby(zero) 21:41, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Or is it that one source uses the phrase "white gods" where Andersson only says an itinerant race of white and blue-eyed culture-bearers that had journeyed from some centre in the Old World to jump-start the world’s great civilization so it's WP:OR to use the better source? fiveby(zero)

While we're here white gods needs some serious work, it's presented almost totally uncritically in wikivoice—blindlynx 15:15, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Fake Bible conspiracy

Added to Bible conspiracy theory by an IP, I suspect this is vandalism but since my wife has been researching David Barton of late, I just can't withstand exposure to that much idiocy in order to search for this. Mangoe (talk) 00:43, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Already deleted. Mangoe (talk) 01:04, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Emergence

Emergence (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Is the concept of "strong emergence" fringe? That's the claim in this edit, which is part of a large body of BOLD cuts to the article. On the whole I think these cuts are good, and I do not disagree with the edit in questions (because the material removed was unsourced). But a quick search did yield some other sources that do seem to support the idea that "strong emergence" sits somewhere within the mainstream, at least in the philosophical literature. The SEP, for instance, provides a helpful overview of the debate: [12]. And here is David Chalmers, one of the most respected living philosophers, arguing in its favor (it's a chapter from the Oxford UP book The Re-emergence of Emergence): [13]. Even where the concept is criticized, e.g. here: [14], it appears be treated as a more or less mainstream position, or at least as an "alternative theoretical formulation". Anyone else have insight to offer here? Thanks, Generalrelative (talk) 17:56, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

I do not think it a fringe concept at all; we have a very good example of "strong emergence" in the human brain. Roger Wolcott Sperry essentially said as much without using the precise term. There is a pretty good precis on the topic here. Then again, there are very good reasons that my livelihood depends on neither science nor mathematics, so I am of course open to the opinions of others. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 18:01, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

In retrospect, I may have not been as clear as I should have been - I think that philosophical debate for the concept itself is not fringe per se, and there is a robust debate on the topic, which is still in the article and I think should stay there, especially the debate with respect to the human brain. But claiming to have definitively made observations of strong emergence in physics is what I intended to characterize as fringe, which lands fairly closely to the idea of vitalism. - car chasm (talk) 21:03, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Aha, thanks for the clarification. Looks like we're all basically on the same page. Generalrelative (talk) 05:16, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Minor-attracted person

The article appears to be citing deeply unreliable literature, including this critical criminology piece that claims that attraction to minors is merely a form of sexual orientation akin to being gay or straight. I attempted to BLAR, but was reverted by the page's creator. Additional eyes to review the citations for fringe would be appreciated. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 03:17, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Per the result of Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Minor-attracted_person, I would recommend creating an AfD for the article. The creator, who only started editing in late March, seems to be a SPA, as all of their edits relate to pedophilia in some way. Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:34, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

per google scholar the term definitely does have some use in Academia, mostly within the last few years, but I assume this is massively dwarfed by other studies that just use paedophilia. Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:52, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Now up for deletion again. Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Minor-attracted_person_(2nd_nomination). Not really a good nomination rationale, and seems to be trending towards keep. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:57, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

If you mention specific editors, please notify them. You could have tagged me here. I would not have seen this discussion if another editor had not linked it in the current AfD.

Anyway, if you have an issue with the sourcing, consider making a source eval table or something similar to prove your point. Show us HOW the sourcing is bad, instead of just saying that it is; nitpicking a single source does not count as a substantial evaluation of the article. Besides, as I told you yesterday, this Critical Criminology source was used only a single time, to make a single statement, that had nothing to do with saying that pedophilia is a sexual orientation. The the statement that this source was supporting was the idea that the term minor-attracted person had some variations. That source was so insignificant that after the discussion that we had yesterday, in which I tried to be cordial and agreed with you that Critical Criminology did not need to be included there, I removed it from the article and didn't have to change a single word of its body because there were other reliable sources that supported that same claim relating to the variations of the term "minor-attracted person". I already told you yesterday in your talk page that the idea that pedophilia is a sexual orientation is fringe and that I had never supported that idea, it was pretty dishonest of you to come here writting this topic in a way that suggests that I had made a claim that I never actually did, especially after I had already told you in your talk page that that was a position that I never held. If you want to criticise me or the article (both of which fine), please be clear in your critique and don't nitpick a just a single source from the article. And don't accuse me of having written things that I never had. 🔥 22spears 🔥 23:24, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

You've repeatedly cited the author of that same piece multiple times in the article, including in the article's use of A Long Dark Shadow, "I Would Report It Even If They Have Not Committed Anything": Social Service Students’ Attitudes Toward Minor-Attracted People, and "I’m Not like That, So Am I Gay?" The Use of Queer-Spectrum Identity Labels Among Minor-Attracted People. This is an extremely WP:FRINGE set of sourcing in the article—it ain't limited to the most egregious one that's been noted above. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 04:20, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Now it's not about the journal anymore, it's about the author? Why do you keep changing you accusations each time I respond? Again, I never used any source coming from this journal or this author to promote any fringe theory, the source was to make statements regarding etymology, most of which could and often are already supported by better sources not related to that journal or author. 🔥 22spears 🔥 16:42, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Red-tailed hawk, thank you for bringing this up. The article has multiple SPAs involved with it lately, some of which have similar usernames, and feels like a POV fork. See also stigma of pedophilia created by 22spears and other articles in the topic area. It really needs closer eyes on it. Crossroads ^-talk- 01:07, 12 May 2023 (UTC) PS see also List of pedophile advocacy organizations in which I had to remove links to two different such groups, and in which an SPA described a group as "advocat[ing] for at least some age of consent reform and circulat[ing] alternative child sexual abuse testimony". Mmmkay. Crossroads ^-talk- 01:33, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Query: it's been a year or two since I've looked at any of the research surrounding this (as it's very tough reading it for obvious reasons), but isn't minor-attracted person just a euphemism for paedophilia? If that's still the case, then shouldn't this at best be a redirect to the paedophilia article or relevant subsection? Because it seems like this is maybe a WP:POVFORK . Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:55, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

It definitely seems that way to me. That's what I argued at the AfD. It looks like we're dealing with a few highly motivated SPA accounts in this topic area right now, and some pretty glaring signs of socking. If anyone has tips that could be assembled into an SPI case, feel free to let me know by email. I'd be happy to put together cases. Generalrelative (talk) 02:04, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

I absolutely agree with Sideswipe. Roxy the dog 19:36, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Same. DFlhb (talk) 13:45, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, something's up. Bon courage (talk) 14:11, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

If memory serves, Flyer22 used to keep an eye on the paedo/hebe/ephebo-philia articles to weed out the sockfarms. They are unfortunately departed now, but perhaps folks who worked with them might be able to check? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:00, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand that argument. It appears to be an article about the term itself, not an article about pedophilia. If it was discussing pedophilia it would be a povfork, but it seems to be literally just discussing the phrase "minor-attracted person", which the article on pedophilia isn't? Endwise (talk) 02:19, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. I've said the same at the AfD. The idea that this is a fork does not match with the actual contents of the article. small jars tc 22:40, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

I think this needs to be part of a larger discussion on whether journals that specialize in critical theory and related subjects should be deprecated for not relying on empirical evidence, and instead attempting to conform to an a priori politically desired conclusion. Partofthemachine (talk) 14:57, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

missed the chance to drop a comment in the AFD. Will state here: we have an article on coprophilia (sexual attraction to feces), if people wanting to normalize this as an orientation wanted a separate article at feces-attracted person, that would amount to the same thing, and would surely not fly. Hyperbolick (talk) 02:17, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Westford Knight - was this edit Undue?

[15] - I've reverted it, the editor has brought it up at Talk:Westford Knight#Why is the new statue WP:UNDUE. There are a few sources for it, [16] Note that both Scott Wolter and Jason Calavito are mentioned in the source used[17] and see also this article by Calavito where he says that the sculptor and Wolter claimed to have discovered another Hooked X (surprise!)[18]. It might be useful for editors to reply on the talk page. Doug Weller talk 15:38, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Genetic history of Egypt

Genetic history of Egypt (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

There's been a recent uptick in edit warring and generalized incivility on this article and its talk page, perhaps having to do with renewed attention to the topic in response to an upcoming Netflix series on Cleopatra (see e.g. [19] and [20] for coverage). Uninvolved editors with strong working knowledge of genetics would be most helpful. Generalrelative (talk) 20:16, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

@Masrialltheway Seems to have broken WP:3RR, as seen by the string of reverts he has done here.

@24.228.27.179 Casually called an user a White Supremacist on the talk page, this probably also warrants a warning or short block.

The discussion doesn't seem that bad to me, just put some warning templates on the new users' profiles and they will understand the message and start to behave. 🔥 22spears 🔥 00:06, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Article has always been pretty contentious, I gave up and took it off my watchlist. Doug Weller talk 08:27, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Principia Cybernetica

Is this a legitimate organization? I have to say I'm very confused at the mere existence of cybernetics after the 1950s, but their website seems really full of woo, such as reinventing philosophy, global brains, pantheism, explaining not just evolution, but also abiogenesis! I'm concerned about the extent to which the content on wikipedia about systems theory and cybernetics seems to mirror this site. - car chasm (talk) 05:17, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Some of those pages genuinely are concerning, but websites of other small professional organizations sometimes have some woo on them, so I don't think we can go exclusively on that.

My general principle here is that we should never have a page on an organization cited entirely or primarily to its own website. So, the best thing to do is to find some reliable third-party sources to see what their reputation is overall. A quick Google doesn't really turn up much, which is concerning, and makes me suspect they wouldn't have the notability to survive AFD. Loki (talk) 00:39, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Fringe material in Pre-Columbian transoceanic contact theories

Looks like this edit[21] added a lot of fringe material relying on dubious sources. I've dealt with a little bit but it needs more and I don't have time right now. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 10:44, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Apologies, it should be the section Pre-Columbian transoceanic contact theories#Claims of pre-Columbian contact with Christian voyagers.

2007 Alderney UFO sighting

2007 Alderney UFO sighting (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Oh dear. This one slipped past our "radar", it seems. Full of absurd credulity and terrible sourcing.

@JMK: who is the main author. Might be worth checking those contributions as well.

jps (talk) 13:06, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Actually, you know what?

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2007 Alderney UFO sighting.

I think we should WP:TNT this. jps (talk) 13:12, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

This note has been accused of being WP:CANVASSing. Further machinations continue at both the article and the AfD. I have also found a small discussion in a UFO forum encouraging people to comment at the AfD to get it kept. Sigh. jps (talk) 18:11, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

ජපස, did you see the Journal of Scientific Exploration article "Unusual Atmospheric Phenomena Observed Near Channel Islands, UK, 23 April 2007", a little bit more discussion than Clarke has in The UFO Files? fiveby(zero) 20:27, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

For sure. I'm not particularly enthused that Clarke, an expert in (check notes) folklore, is declaring that this nothing burger was "unusual atmospheric phenomena". It might be, but it also might be, I don't know, window glint. When it is only eyewitness testimony of UFOs, attempting to say anything about the situation is basically impossible. jps (talk) 21:20, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

UFO sightings in South Africa

UFO sightings in South Africa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Same author, similar issues. Sourcing is atrocious. I notice some have been active cleaning things up, but a lot of cruft remains (sourcing to obscure newspaper articles, trade journals, and even Lonely Planet).jps (talk) 15:30, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/UFO sightings in Thailand

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/UFO sightings in Thailand.

Sigh.

jps (talk) 15:40, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Lancet MMR autism fraud

• Lancet MMR autism fraud (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch
• MMR vaccine and autism (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Recent high some-say-this-some-say-that activity. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:28, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Ah I see its time for the annual anti-vax 'Wakefield totes is not a giant fraudypants' cycle. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:56, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Giants

I'd appreciate third opinions on these two newly created articles and their respective DYKs:

• Giant skeletons (United States) (Template:Did you know nominations/Giant skeletons (United States))
• Giantology (Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Giantology)

I'm concerned they gave more credence to this fringe theory than is warranted. – Joe (talk) 12:09, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't think that reports of 10 foot tall giants from newpaper articles from 1885 (!) should be stated in Wikivoice.  Tewdar  12:56, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Please respond at Template:Did you know nominations/Giant skeletons (United States). I’ve done as much as I can tonight. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 18:58, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

I started both of these articles. They are well sourced and accurate. I am disappointed in the rapid fire AfD !votes and the gigantic stop sign shutdown of the DYK nomination. Clearly like minded people are being called to action with this notice so I mentioned it at both the DYK nomination and the AfD. Bruxton (talk) 20:20, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Glancing over it there seem to be multiple issues related to sourcing and accuracy. For instance: The first sentence states the wrong centuries. The bulk of the article cites tabloid articles. The "Background" section isn't about the background, and starts with "As early as 1859 it was reported", when the Columbus Dispatcher source you use later says "as early as 1845". Hypnôs (talk) 21:11, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @Hypnôs:, what you describe are WP:SURMOUNTABLE issues. And I think the bulk of the RS is from newspaper articles. No redlined sources. Bruxton (talk) 21:40, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Tabloids are usually questionable. They are not redlined, but that's the case for most non-reliable sources. Hypnôs (talk) 21:56, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Your understanding of article sourcing seems well out of whack to what would be expected per WP:RS. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:05, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

There might be a very good article titled giantology, but it ain't this one. fiveby(zero) 00:01, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

• I took a look at Giant skeletons (United States), and as others have mentioned, it seems to be mostly sourced to poor quality tabloids or newspapers. It doesn't look like it was seriously discussed in high quality sources. With that problem, it's looking like it may be an AfD candidate if not major pruning. Curious what others think here. KoA (talk) 03:04, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

  I agree with thinking of Giant skeletons (United States) as a possible AfD candidate. Its notability is certainly questionable in that it lacks high quality sources. Summarizing old tabloid and newspaper articles does not give the topic notability. Maybe change the title and remove all outdated material sourced to articles written between 1868 and 2020. Wikipedia is not a repository for indiscriminate information. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 04:06, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

  I disagree. At least two U.S. presidents believed this and it was influential for 1800s North America. The article is just missing context (that scholarly sources would provide). The significance of these giant skeletons being found in Native American burial mounds is that the white power structures embraced the narrative that a primeval race of people (white, giant, or both) built the impressive structures in the Mississippi river valley, and were then exterminated by the Native Americans (who were in reality the descendants of the mound builders). Doug Weller covered it in Archaeology and racism on Wikipedia (dope article btw). Jason Colavito released a book on it a couple years back, which looks dope but I haven't read it. I think Edwards Watts covers it in Colonizing the Past: Mythmaking and Pre-Columbian Whites in Nineteenth-Century American Writing. There are also scholarly sources that connect the white supremacist mythology of the 1800s to some of the modern conspiracies and hoaxes like Contested Indigenous Landscapes: Indian Mounds and the Political Creation of the Mythical "Mound Builder" Race. Bruxton, have you come across this stuff yet? I think the context would improve the article. Regards, Rjjiii (talk) 03:10, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@Rjjiii: Thank you for the comments and the ping. I appreciate your efforts and interesting comments above. At the moment KOA and Brunton have erased all the background/news articles from Giant skeletons (United States). I tried to restore the research as necessary background but at this point I have to walk away from this article so I do not get in trouble for edit warring. I have attempted to invite the editors to the talk page but was unsuccessful. FYIL Doug Weller came to my talk page and said he thought the Giant skeletons "article is a good one and a useful addition to Wikipedia". I will read the article he started which you referenced above. Have a great week! Bruxton (talk) 04:29, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@Rjjiii: — If someone were to use the sources you provided this might turn out to be a much better article. ----Steve Quinn (talk) 13:06, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Same as giantology, the good content here is description of the pre-20th erudite arguments for existence of a giant race or that humans were larger in the past. Add to giant first, then sub-article if needed. Afd this after the current runs its course? fiveby(zero) 16:09, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Category:Pathological science has been nominated for discussion

Category:Pathological science has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:42, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Discussion re: how to word DJT's mishandling of the COVID-19 pandemic at Talk:Donald Trump

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Donald Trump § Testing and unproven treatments (Misinformation) in the lead. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 15:27, 19 May 2023 (UTC) — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 15:27, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Some users have expressed a desire to remove the current mention of promoting "unproven treatments" or spreading misinformation re: treatments from the lead of Donald Trump when discussing his COVID response. Any and all outside input would be appreciated in properly determining what is WP:DUE inclusion here.

@KoA@Jayron32@FormalDude@Slatersteven @other FTN regulars who have been interested in this talk page in the past — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 18:13, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Authorship of the Petrine epistles

This is about [22]. Please chime in. tgeorgescu (talk) 03:02, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

The scholarly consensus seems quite clear and putting a minority theory in the lede is WP:UNDUE/WP:FALSEBALANCE. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:49, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

The diff you point to is a simple misrepresentation of the source. Once an editor does that, it should be just WP:RBI instead of having to argue with them. fiveby(zero) 14:09, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Indian psychology

Indian psychology appears to be yet another article on transpersonal psychology. It has no apparent connection to anything of any actual scientific value, and from the citations it seems like it may just be the invention of a few isolated people. Is there anything worth salvaging or should it be AfD'd? - car chasm (talk) 08:25, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories

Not surprisingly, it's a giant stew of WP:FRINGE theories, mostly sourced to fringe sources, with very little in the way of response to most of them. I've tagged the article. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:45, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Definitely needs a heavy overhaul. Lots and lots of obscure proFRINGE content all over the place. Will take a look when I get a chance, but cannot do it alone — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 18:16, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I recommend Vincent Bugliosi's Reclaiming History for anyone looking at Kennedy conspiracy theories. It's probably the gold standard when it comes to demolishing kookery of that sort. Most well stocked library systems will have a copy. Ad Orientem (talk) 18:45, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Yeesh, what a mess! Needs a major overhaul, perhaps organized roughly-chronologically through Gallup polls 1963-64, Buchanan 63, Lane 66, HSCA, Marrs & Stone, etc; Refuting each's claims as they get more elaborate. Feoffer (talk) 22:52, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

A. E. Wilder-Smith

• A. E. Wilder-Smith (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Is there a source saying that this creationist was a three-star general? I find nothing useful on the net. Only German Wikipedia, which is not RS, and obvious copies of it. IPs keep adding the general bit and deleting other stuff. --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:19, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

He claims so in his autobiography. Oh that's already on the talk page. Had to be some kind of rank equivalency and not a real rank. fiveby(zero) 16:47, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I am finding no records for a Wilder-Smith of such a rank (or anything approaching) in British service in those years. I also doubt its a rank equivalent, in a uniformed medical service a three star equivalent would likely be the top dog and there is no indication that Wilder-Smith ever was such a top dog or even served in a uniformed medical service. There is no such thing as an "advisor" "with the rank of a three star general," not within NATO and not anywhere to the best of my knowledge. All things equal I think Wilder-Smith is telling a fib, there really isn't another logical conclusion. In general this probably means that we can't use him for WP:ABOUTSELF (there are a lot of other extraordinary achievements in that bio, all seemingly sourced to Wilder-Smith himself). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:31, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Grover Furr

• Grover Furr (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

New activity by new user, "proving the truth", removing "negationism" and moving the article towards something Stalin would have liked. That is not necessarily bad, depending on whether there was really an "anti-Stalin bias", but it may need checking by historians. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:51, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Nazario Collection

A fringe mess, not sure what to do to fix it. Doug Weller talk 09:07, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Scope of the Holocaust

At the suggestion of Aquillion [23] let's discuss the scope of the Holocaust because there has been an "underlying disagreement[] in the topic area." In scholarly works, is it a fringe view to define the Holocaust as something other than the Nazi genocide of European Jewry?

In scholarly works, I understand that the Holocaust is demarcated as the Nazi genocide of ~6 million European Jews during World War II. In popular culture (and in Wikipedia) there are occasional statements that the Holocaust includes other Nazi mass killings, including the Roma people, homosexuals, Slavs, Soviet POWs, etc. While equally awful, and thoroughly documented, these other Nazi mass murders are related to but distinct from the Holocaust. Several have their own names, and each should have its own article, including: the killing of Romani people (Porajmos ), Persecution of homosexuals in Nazi Germany, euthanasia of the disabled (Aktion T4), execution of the Poles (Polish decrees, Intelligenzaktion), the German atrocities committed against Soviet prisoners of war, Nazi mass murder of political opponents (where is this article?), and the persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses.

To be clear, articles about the Holocaust should, when appropriate, mention these other killings as highly relevant context, and link to them. The demarcation between different Nazi mass murders should be clearly explained. For starters, we could improve the clarity of Names of the Holocaust, which presently seems a bit muddled. Jehochman ^Talk 13:07, 26 May 2023 (UTC)