Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 100

Archive 95

←

Archive 98

Archive 99

Archive 100

Archive 101

Archive 102

Why are there so many religious topics here?

With very rare exceptions, religion is outside the purview of this noticeboard. FTN deals with fringe theories which contradict generally accepted medical/scientific/historical facts. Religion, which primarily deals with a belief in the supernatural and matters of faith, cannot be examined in the same way we address pseudoscientific claims or fringe conspiracy theories that have been widely debunked. I would encourage experienced editors and patrolling admins to close discussions that are not within the intended purpose of this noticeboard, and direct the OP and any involved parties to the correct forum. Very often that would be the article talk page, WP:RSN. or WP:NPOVN. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:01, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

There ARE religious (Theological) fringe topics. Fringe beliefs within broader religions. As an example, the Arian heresy is fringe within modern Christianity. Blueboar (talk) 19:19, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

That is certainly true, within Christianity. But this is not a religious noticeboard. We deal with objective facts, recognizable and provable within the framework of science, history and current events. This is not a forum for dealing with the supernatural or debates over fictional topics such as The Lord of the Rings. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:29, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Obviously this needs to be brought up elsewhere, but I think we need a firm guideline on how to handle this at this point. Removing in-universe statements presented as fact? Sure, absolutely put FTN on the case and maybe ping the religion wikiproject so we bring in some expertise, but more than once I’ve seen statements from “editors belonging to ______ faith will always lie to misrepresent their faith and put it in a better light” (Falun Gong) to “this entire religious belief is a fringe theory we should excise from Wikipedia except in the most mocking of tones” (much of New Age). Also MASSIVE WP:BITE issues. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 19:35, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree. It's probably time to clarify this issue. I've considered putting up an edit notice but would prefer some consensus on wording. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:41, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I mean, my take, which I cannot imagine will go over well here, is we need to hard-limit chatting by having somewhat constant oversight and threads locked as soon as the fringe issue is dealt with, and an iron fist on WP:BITE behaviour. FTN is both extremely valuable and is one of the most WP:CABAL-esque places I'm aware of on Wikipedia, and the easiest way I can think of to address this is to not allow it to become a forum as it has. FTN also has historically had issues with either overweighting fringe topic or understandings of topics as somehow more important than they are, or mission creep (see: theology). There was an ANI about 8 or so months ago with a lot of admins chiming in that they've noticed some of these issues as well, so it's perhaps well past time that we get some admin input or oversight outside of when things get extra, well, spicy. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 19:47, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I am posting a few requests for input on relevant wiki-project talk pages. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:53, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I would like to simply reiterate that I have, too, noticed the cabal (I hate that word, but it's wikiparlance) behavior that often originates or magnifies through posts to FTN. It sometimes seems to function as an expedient workaround to canvassing in certain subject areas. I believe that the issue has become so acute in terms of canvassing and biting that sanctions should be more readily administered. I've been involved in recent discussions unreasonably escalated by FTN-posting, namely at Talk:Massacre of the Innocents (which ultimately saw at least one behavioral block). ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:25, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Given that there have been extensive documented cases of Falun Gong attempting to manipulate Wikipedia articles about them (Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Falun Gong), and that New Age movements are not infrequently referred to as fringe in peer-reviewed literature, the choice of examples here does not suggest to me that there's much of a problem. If there's an issue of actual BITE behavior (including behavior that excessively promotes we should excise [coverage of a given belief] from Wikipedia except in the most mocking of tones) that's valid to criticize, but the general complaint that these topics are out of scope for FTN seems off the mark. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:05, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree, that there have been instances of obviously inappropriate editing going on. To my mind the issue is whether they belong here or at another forum. Someone trying to hijack an article or pushing POV edits based on obviously bad sourcing would belong either at ANI or RSN. Religion is not, per se, a fringe subject as we customarily understand the term. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:09, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

'"the choice of examples here does not suggest to me that there's much of a problem."'

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that Falun Gong and New Age are frequent sources of explicit POV editing and have caused problems in the past, and I've done my fair share of cleaning up New Age articles. My concern here, and what was brought up by admins last time, was this fairly vocal demand that Falun Gong editors writ large, regardless of individual behaviour, be banned from editing FG articles without disclosing their religious affiliation. When I said "hey, this seems not very okay" I was accused of being crypto-Falun Gong bu some of the other regulars here which... considering I'm a regular here as well feels quite odd. With New Age, it's mainly WP:BITE issues where an editor doesn't really understand the encyclopedic nature of Wikipedia. I've seen power users here openly talk about driving those people away on the basis of one or two bad edits, rather than attempting to engage with them on how to edit appropriately. I'm not saying that the end result may not actually be the same, but rather it seems much of FTN has decided to shortcut the usual routes to address bad edits and assume a single WP:PROFRINGE edit instantly equals WP:NOTHERE and act accordingly to drive people away as fast as they can. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 20:23, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

True, until it makes claims in those areas. Slatersteven (talk) 20:11, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Which all religions do, which is what makes all religions fringe, within the meaning of WP:FRINGE: an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field. Levivich (talk) 20:22, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I think part of what makes the Falun Gong, in specific, a sore spot is the number of times many long term editors who haunt this board have had to deal with tedious, sometimes paid, pro-FLG editors. And as FLG is a new religious movement that actively spreads misinformation on politics, biology, history and medicine it is very much an org that runs afoul of the Fringe noticeboard almost as often as it does the people who do WP:NONAZI cleanup. That said I do agree that these edge cases do lead to the risk of mission creep once people start getting into questions of wiki-voice representation of biography of biblical figures and such - which is not the same thing as dealing with the pseudoscience and political extremism of a contemporary new religious movement. Simonm223 (talk) 12:18, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

To borrow the words of another editor, Warrenmck, fringe would be more an attempt to explain that type of long lifespan using a naturalistic approach of some kind. Just mere religious belief is religious belief. Editors summarizing that in the plot of the Bible Joshua miraculously makes Jericho's walls fall, or even summarizing reliable scholarship that assesses the meaning and reception of this story for the book as a text or for believers as religion, even if editors disagree about how best to summarize it or what elements are due or how to represent or not divergent academic assessments/interpretations of narrative/philosophical/literary/religious meaning, doesn't seem WP:FRINGE in the Wikipedia sense. Meanwhile, editors trying to make wikivoice say that archaeology has definitely found the ruins of Jericho and proven the story scientifically true (which archaeology hasn't), that would be a matter of circulating WP:FRINGE. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 20:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Religions are the cause of a lot of fringe views, so it isn't unusual to see them here. Ayurvedic medicine, intelligent design, UFO religions, lost tribes of Israel populating random places, etc all overlap with our understanding of history and the natural world. Some articles are clear and objective, others have been written by true believers in various types of woo.

Big Money Threepwood (talk) 20:28, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

"Religion, which primarily deals with a belief in the supernatural and matters of faith, cannot be examined in the same way we address pseudoscientific claims or fringe conspiracy theories that have been widely debunked".

I believe I am 234 foot tall leprechaun that was birthed in the core of Jupiter and traveled to Earth through my leprechauncy powers. This is at once a supernatural claim and a core matter of faith of all Headbomb-Leprechaunists.

But it is also clearly a claim that can be examined and debunked. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:53, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

If and when your religion reaches the point of being notable, we can discuss this. Until then I am not seeing the relevance of your comment, unless it was intended to ridicule persons of religious faith. In which case, I would advise you to tread carefully. There is no shortage of places on the internet where you are free to do that. Wikipedia, is not one of them. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:06, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Far be it from me to speak on behalf of another, but I read this as standing for the proposition that we do not privilege ideas or claims merely because they proceed from a religious context. That said, I also agree with you below that belief in the resurrection is not a fringe belief. I honestly think this is fairly easy conceptually: the resurrection is not fringe because it is believed by just about every Christian in the world. That said, Methuselah's age probably is fringe, in my experience (though I am certainly open to evidence to the contrary), because to the extent people think about it at all, few of them seem to take it literally. All subject to sourcing, of course, but thought I would briefly chime in. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 23:57, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

"Far be it from me to speak on behalf of another, but I read this as standing for the proposition that we do not privilege ideas or claims merely because they proceed from a religious context."

I'm not the person in question so I can't speak to their intent, but I do think this is what I and @Horse Eye's Back were talking about with a certain brand of (r/)atheism being present here at times. I don't want to speak for either them or @Headbomb, but it's worth pointing out to Headbomb that several of us are perceiving it this way, even if your read here is accurate. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 00:28, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Your argument appears internally inconsistent to me... If we don't privilege ideas or claims merely because they proceed from a religious context how do we arrive at Lazarus or Jesus's resurrections being literal and not figurative events not being fringe? I know this sounds like the users I was just criticizing... But why don't we treat them the same as the other zombies? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:23, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

• Religions aren't inherently fringe, but that doesn't mean they can't be presented in a way that is fringe. Saying in wikivoice that Jesus rose from the dead would be fringe, it would need to be made clear that Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead (and in fact this is exactly what the article on Jesus says). For this specific question saying someone lived for more than 900 years is an exceptional claim, and to say it in wikivoice would require exceptional sources not just biblical sources. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 23:32, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  Really the problem here is that infoboxes are poor at presenting details that are not easily simplified. As with other such situations the best way to deal with the issue would be to leave it out of the infobox and correctly contextualised in the text. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 23:36, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  Presenting the Resurrection as a fact in wiki-voice would not be fringe insofar as the term applies to this board. It is neither provable nor disprovable. Again, we are dealing with the supernatural as a subject matter. That said, it would unquestionably be a serious breach of NPOV and should be addressed on that basis. Claims that someone lived for 900 years would fall under the heading WP:REDFLAG. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary sources. I can't imagine something like that being presentable as an undisputed claim of fact in wiki-voice. -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:42, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  This discussion seems to have stemmed from the one above (#Methuselah), giving his age as 962 in the infobox with nonother context is stating tbe fact in wikivoice. That an individual can live for 900+ years is definitely fringe. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 00:02, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

• This feels like begging the question... Are there are so many religious topics here or is the amount proportionate? Note that matters of faith do not belong here, but anything which purports to deal with the supernatural does. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:53, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

  Until fairly recently, religion was not a subject that popped up here with any frequency. I'd say it was rare. On those occasions when I saw one, assuming it wasn't too far along, I usually closed it with a polite note pointing all concerned to the correct forum. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:07, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

  And what was done when this was the correct forum? For example for anything involving the supernatural whether part of a major religion or not. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:12, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

• There can definitely be an undercurrent of r/atheism here, the board definitely turns into a forum on occasion (see the UFO threads from earlier this year...), posts can definitely operate as canvassing, regulars are definitely BITIER here than at the other noticeboards due at least in part to some degree of righteousness and the (often accurate) assumption that any newcomers with not-rabidly-anti-fringe opinions are socks... Those are a few of the problems I see with this page; a small number of posts addressing religious topics is not among them. Like others have said, religion can easily swerve into fringe territory, and I think the recent uptick in that content here just reflects the discovery of several walled gardens in the area that strongly resemble the pseudoscience walled gardens we're all familiar with re: in-universe descriptions and over-reliance on sources from adherents. JoelleJay (talk) 01:43, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

  I just want to briefly appreciate the fact that two of us now have explicitly called this behaviour "r/atheism"-esque Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 02:12, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

  With the "r" standing for Reddit? Doug Weller talk 07:19, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

  In this case, yes, the subreddit. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 07:29, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

religion is outside the purview of this noticeboard My fact-checking instinct kicked in, and I checked the first 10 archives and this page for the percentage of religious topics (including creationism and theosophy, excluding channeling and New Age as well as this thread. Yes, that is a subjective borderline).

1 14%

2 3%

3 19%

4 19%

5 17%

6 23%

7 14%

8 26%

9 13%

10 20%

Current 19% --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:08, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Why are there so many religious topics here? Asked and answered. Because lots of religious topics are fringe. Biblical literalism is religion and is fringe. Creationism, by any of its names, is religion and is fringe. As well the Flat Earth. Ghosts, seances, mediumship, remembering past lives etc., all have been claimed by believers to have been "scientifically proven", so refuting those pseudoscientific claims falls withing the purview of this noticeboard, even if they are religious beliefs. Same goes for rotating tables, haunted houses and every other spiritualist superstition. Any particular claim by believers of divine intervention is fringe, and investigation made by people who actually try to understand whatever happened in Fatima, for example, falls within the purview of this noticeboard. Transcendent meditators claiming that their humming and chanting prevented world war III, or whatever, is fringe. The statement With very rare exceptions, religion is outside the purview of this noticeboard. is simply false. Some separate issues have been brought up here, but they are beside the point. This sounds, to me, like just one more case of people standing up for fringe topics. VdSV9•♫ 14:41, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

The statement With very rare exceptions, religion is outside the purview of this noticeboard does not hold up in practical terms. It just amounts to saying that "Religion is outside the purview of this noticeboard except when it isn't". FTN deals with fringe theories which contradict generally accepted medical/scientific/historical facts. And some of the topics within the broad and fuzzily-bounded area called "religion" do involve empirically testable claims that contradict medicine, science, and/or history. Religion, which primarily deals with a belief in the supernatural and matters of faith, cannot be examined in the same way we address pseudoscientific claims or fringe conspiracy theories that have been widely debunked. Turn that around: when religion does not deal with matters purely of faith, it can be examined in the same way we address pseudoscientific claims or fringe conspiracy theories. By and large, those are the cases that show up at FTN. XOR'easter (talk) 18:17, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Fringe: STEM Vs Humanities?

I tried to read good number of initial comments in the main section above but with WP:TLDR so I couldn't read them all. Here I would like to extend umbrella to cover all humanities topics and compare with STEM: Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics. Additionally may be we would need to discuss where to put topics like Law.

The thumb rule to my understanding is what mainstream academic STEM Reliable sources say in majority voice is not fringe and rest may be need to be cross verified for fringe-ness.

I am asking this question in Humanities side since I had seen approach by few editors to literally count number academic sources and define what is majority is mainstream and refute as many minority academic views as possible with help of WP:Fringe.

How far it is accurate to apply what is applicable to STEM area as is to Humanities topic areas? i.e. whether WP needs to have same level of rigidity as of STEM areas in Humanities topics too? whether Humanities can have a little more scope for accommodation for more views if academic RS is available? or Any scope to discuss WP:Fringe separately for Humanities topics than STEM?

Bookku (talk) 14:49, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

The same, as humanities is an academic topic area, and we would go by what the majority of scholars say. As wp:undue also comes into it, if an expert does not say it why do we even care? Slatersteven (talk) 14:57, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

You get fringe in humanities too (e.g. Shakespeare authorship 'theories'), and the same 'rules' apply as set out in core policy: WP:FRINGESUBJECTS. For different discipline the types of WP:BESTSOURCES will be different. Bon courage (talk) 14:55, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Drawing the line between the two can be hard... For example is reincarnation a STEM claim, a humanities claim, or both? (thats actually a trick question, depending on the tradition it can be any of those three) Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:26, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I mean my participation is principally social sciences and humanities related topics. I would concur with Slatersteven - there is an academic mainstream in the academy for social sciences and humanities just like for STEM fields and things outside of that (an easy example being the Shakespeare authorship 'theories') falls within this. Simonm223 (talk) 15:34, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Another example of fringe would be things like eugenicist applications of utilitarianism. They are generally rejected within the humanities and, as such, go against an academic consensus to the extent of being fringe. Simonm223 (talk) 15:35, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

For religion and academia in particular I would say that religious studies is the mainstream while theology is the fringe. Theology does not operate by the same rules or standards as the other humanities, even if ironically they are all descended from theology. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:44, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

With all due respect, I think this is a misapplication of WP:FRINGE. To quote: the term fringe theory is used in a broad sense to describe an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field. When I read that, it strikes me that theology is a field unto itself. To compare theology to other more objective endeavours is, I think, a category error, just as we would not say poetry is a fringe application of statistics. Millions of people believe or claim to believe in theology (even if I am not one of them) and it has, as you note, an incredibly long intellectual history. There are certainly fringe theories within theology (historically Christians tended to call them 'heresies'). In short, I think for purposes of assessing 'fringeness' (fringeality? fringitude?), I think we have to consider theology as a theologian would, not as a physicist would. As ever, just some idle thoughts and reasonable minds can definitely differ on this one! Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 15:56, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

We've never had such a narrow reading of field, otherwise cryptozoology wouldn't be fringe as its not fringe within its own narrowly defined field but is within the broadly defined field. For a specific example within LDS theology the idea that some Native Americans are descendants of the lost tribes of Israel is not fringe, within religious studies, archaeology and genetics etc it is. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:58, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

That's fair, and we're definitely dealing with malleable levels of abstraction here, so I take your point--but I think theology is more susceptible to being a field than is cryptozoology, which by its very name is an offshoot of an existing field. There are definitely fringe ideas within theology, and especially where theology makes testable claims. My contention is that we cannot label all of theology 'fringe,' else you wind up with things like Thomas Aquinas and John Calvin being fringe theorists, which feels very wrong to me (again, despite the fact that I don't buy much of what either was selling). Dumuzid (talk) 16:11, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Theology is basically just a form of religious studies where you suspend objective truth and the scientific method. Not really seeing how thats different from zoology vs cryptozoology. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:33, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

This is where CONTEXT comes in. The idea that a god (or the gods) created the earth is not a fringe view in Theology… but it is a fringe view in Astro-Physics. It is appropriate to outline and discuss the various creation stories in articles focused on religious belief, it is not appropriate to mention them in an article focused on modern scientific understanding of the cosmos. Blueboar (talk) 16:34, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

People aren't WP:FRINGE; ideas are WP:FRINGE. Levivich (talk) 17:10, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I feel like I am still not doing a good job conveying my thoughts. I absolutely agree that there are places where religion and other fields intersect where it is entirely appropriate to use the fringe label. But imagine I were to say "the trinity is not a fringe concept!" To back up this proposition, I point out that it is a belief (nominally) endorsed by over 2 billion people, and it is regularly discussed in academic journals from esteemed institutions of higher education. The argument that it is fringe would be....'religion,' I guess? Dumuzid (talk) 17:35, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I think you're confusing fringe with something that few people believe... If you take LGBTQ issues for example the medical consensus (and therefore the mainstream within the field) is not held by way more than 2 billion people. What non-experts believe has no bearing at all on whether something is fringe or not. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:40, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

So would you consider the trinity to be a fringe concept? Dumuzid (talk) 17:42, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

In what sense? That it exists as a belief or that a triune deity exists? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:44, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

The latter. Dumuzid (talk) 17:49, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Clearly a fringe theory. The theory that any such thing (triune deity, unitary deity, minor deity, demigod, angel, unicorn, dragon, giant, bigfoot, etc is fringe) actually exists or existed as a real being is fringe. It falls completely outside of mainstream academia. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:56, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Okay, let's stick to theism writ broadly. Where can you point me to back up that theism is a fringe concept? Dumuzid (talk) 17:58, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

This is kind of getting into WP:NOTFORUM territory here folks. I would suggest the Fringe Theory noticeboard shouldn't be commenting on the Trinity until somebody tries to market holy ghost boner pills. Or suggests that Jesus wants people to inbreed because he is his own father and it worked great for him. Simonm223 (talk) 18:05, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Interestingly enough google says that both of those things have happened... Its just not on wikipedia. I broadly agree though, this is not the place for broad speculation about the compatibility of modern academic science and theism (oceans of ink have already been spilled on the topic by generations). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:09, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

"I would suggest the Fringe Theory noticeboard shouldn't be commenting on the Trinity...." this is a better summation of my position than I have managed! Dumuzid (talk) 18:09, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean "stick to" we haven't talked about theism writ broadly at all before now and when nobody but you is talking about concepts... Everyone else seems to be talking about theories, lets limit any discussion on this noticeboard to theories. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:06, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, by "stick to" I meant to sort of de-sectarianize my point. And I was responding to your claim that "The theory that any such thing (triune deity, unitary deity, minor deity, demigod, angel, unicorn, dragon, giant, bigfoot, etc is fringe) actually exists or existed as a real being is fringe." Ontologically I agree with you entirely. But I am also a fan of epistemic humility, and I see no actual backup for that position in terms of Wikipedia usage. But I will let it go with that. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 18:11, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

If I can sneak a last word in here I think its largely a non-issue, we don't have a ton of problems with long term users pushing theism or similar issues into wiki voice... Almost everyone seems to understand that whatever they personally believe (whether it be about the Kennedy assasination or the immaculate conception) they need to take a NPOV approach. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:16, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Theism -- that there exists a God -- is WP:FRINGE because it's "an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field." Open up any kind of science book and none of them will say there exists a God. Hence, it's an idea that departs significantly from mainstream views in any scientific field. Similarly, the idea that God created the universe is WP:FRINGE, because it departs significantly from the mainstream views of all scientific fields. The idea that there exists three Gods, also WP:FRINGE. The idea that there is an afterlife: WP:FRINGE. The idea that somebody was resurrected, WP:FRINGE, and that's true whether that idea comes from Frankenstein or World War Z or Gospel of Matthew. Levivich (talk) 18:38, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

How many science books will say affirmatively either that there is no god or that a god could not exist? Dumuzid (talk) 20:51, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

That's not how it works, though. In order for a view to be fringe, it doesn't mean that the negation of that view needs to be the mainstream view.

For example, "Levivich is God" is clearly not the mainstream view, it's fringe. That doesn't mean that the mainstream view affirmatively says "Levivich is not God," it just means that the mainstream view is not that "Levivich is God."

For any idea X, either X is the mainstream view (consensus of sources), or it's a significant minority view (not the consensus of all sources but a significant minority), or it's fringe (insignificant minority). In order for X to be fringe, it doesn't mean that not-X must be the mainstream view, it just means that X is not the mainstream view or a significant minority view.

If zero science books say X, then X is not the mainstream view or a significant minority view. If zero science books say God exists, then "God exists" is not the mainstream view or a significant minority view, and hence it's fringe.

I hope that makes sense (or better sense than my first reverted attempt)? Levivich (talk) 21:16, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

So, as far as I know, zero science books say that Harold Godwinson's victory at the Battle of Stamford Bridge so soon before Hastings was a significant disadvantage in the latter. It must therefore be a fringe view? Dumuzid (talk) 21:30, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Might I suggest trying a history book? History is after all a science... A social science. See Branches of science (note that you will not find theology within science). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:16, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

History is a humanity. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:53, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes it is, what does that have to do with whether or not its a social science? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:31, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Are there non-science ideas that are not fringe? Dumuzid (talk) 03:19, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely yes. And making sure to remind STEM types that academic consensus exists in the humanities is critical to keep this whole page on-mission lest somebody decide that ancient alien hypotheses aren't fringe because History is a humanity rather than a science and thus fringe doesn't apply. Simonm223 (talk) 12:46, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Dumuzid, I kinda thought you wanted to have a real discussion, and took my time to engage in it. But if you want to f around and talk about looking in a science book about a history thing, well, I'm sorry I wasted my time. Levivich (talk) 03:04, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I was trying to make a point (though a bit snarkily, I admit) that there are fields which do not entirely overlap, and you're assuming that science and ontology have a 1-to-1 match, with which I would certainly disagree. If you and HEB replaced your mentions of "fringe" earlier with "nonsense" or "woo," then I would agree entirely. But not all bad ideas are fringe and not all fringe ideas are bad. I think that is a distinction worth preserving. Dumuzid (talk) 03:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

OK sorry I missed that point entirely. And I agree with you that not all fringe is bad. In fact, a lot of mainstream views started out as fringe, a famous example is heliocentrism.

But whether God exists is a matter of science not ontology. And I mean whether God actually exists, not "what if God existed" or "what might God be" but is there, in fact, a God. That's what separates science (as in "hard science") from philosophy, right? Science deals with reality, philosophy deals with ideas, like the idea of reality.

So the idea of a God is not WP:FRINGE, of course. The idea that, to take one example, God might be a single God, or God might be omniscient, or might be omnipotent... none of those are WP:FRINGE.

But the claim that God does, in fact, exist, is WP:FRINGE, by virtue of it not being the view of mainstream reliable sources.

Or to pick maybe a better example: the idea that God, or a God, created the universe, is WP:FRINGE because it's not the mainstream view or a significant minority view of the reliable sources in the particular fields (astronomy, cosmology). I agree that doesn't make it a bad idea, or even an untrue idea -- and I agree with everyone else about how Wikipedia can get too "r/Atheism" in persecuting or even ridiculing fringe ideas -- but God-created-the-universe is still, by definition, WP:FRINGE, and will be until such time as some significant minority of scientists say that God created the universe.

So to bring it back to the OP, if there is a concern at some article about editors trying to have Wikipedia say in its own voice that God created the universe, that would be a proper matter for this noticeboard. Levivich (talk) 03:23, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

But this is where I get my hackles up. Most science--in fact I would say the vast majority thereof--does not concern itself with whether or not there is a god. And why should it? It's basically entirely irrelevant to scientific inquiry. The works with which I am familiar tend to be appropriately cautious in their conclusions--like Dawkins in The God Delusion. The works that do go there represent (to me) where science ceases being about classification of observable phenomena and becomes philosophy. Again, let's take "theism" as entirely bland and, admittedly, favorable to my argument. There are billions of theists in the world, philosophers and scientists among them. There are academic journals that take theism as axiomatic. Theology is taught at any number of respected institutions, and not only sectarian institutions. None of this is to say 'theism' is a good or persuasive argument, and it is not one I personally endorse. But to say the entire concept is fringe strikes me as just obviously wrong. Everyone points out cases where there are religious ideas that are clearly fringe, and that is fair enough. But when you get down to the more philosophical/axiomatic inquiries (for me, theism, or even creation ex nihilo), I just don't think they are as susceptible to the same sort of classification. Are there lots of fringe ideas in religion? Oh god yes (pun intended). But again, I think there is value in applying the term rigorously as written, which means that some woo is not actually fringe. I am not overly concerned about this as a practical matter, but intellectually curious. As ever, I am happy to go wherever consensus leads. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 03:44, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

So is mathematics a philosophy or a science? Simonm223 (talk) 12:47, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

At its purest, it's a communal world-building game where participants try to invent or extend rules that "work" within their system. So you can prove something to be true within that particular world-game, with the potential that it may also be generalizable or relevant to other world-games that have rules based on empirical real-life data (more applied math) -- though doing the latter isn't necessary and may even be disappointing to some. Meanwhile philosophy I believe is still concerned with discussing questions originating from, or contextualized by, the real world, just not necessarily in ways that are applicable to the real world. But I do think it is a spectrum in that abstract philosophical arguments can be reduced to what amounts to arbitrary rules-creation, resembling pure math. JoelleJay (talk) 15:54, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm thinking largely about a lot of work of people like Badiou, Deleuze or Meillassoux that, while largely metaphysical, is heavily informed by mathematics. I find a weakness of the Fringe Theory noticeboard is to treat philsophy as non-real in some way. Meanwhile, notwithstanding these abstract metaphysics, things like epistemology are rather critical for understanding even what science does and why. Simonm223 (talk) 18:16, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

"But not all bad ideas are fringe and not all fringe ideas are bad." we don't care whether an idea is bad or not, it literally doesn't matter. That is not a distinction that currently exists so it can not be preserved. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:33, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

This is my point exactly. But I fear sometimes the line gets blurred. Dumuzid (talk) 20:31, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree, with the caveat the those lines get blurred a lot of places (MEDRS, BLP, RS, etc) and that I think in general those doing the blurring have good intentions and are largely unaware that they are doing it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:06, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

(Outdent) Worse… I was just reviewing the academic scholarship about those battles… not one discusses Einstein’s theory of relativity. Must be Fringe to have so many eminent historians ignore it. Blueboar (talk) 22:33, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

As others say, for different topics there are different WP:BESTSOURCES. While I can see why someone might "count" sources, I'm not entirely sure that's the best way to assess, or at least it shouldn't be the only way; there are cases in which WP:AGEMATTERS would be relevant. That said, I'm not entirely sure "fringe" is the right language to use to talk about this except in narrow, conspiratorial contexts. For instance, WP:FRINGE gives as an example of a "fringe" theory in the humanities something like conspiracy theories contending that [John Wilkes] Booth eluded his pursuers and escaped. Wikipedia parlance might call that a "fringe" view in history since it's very decidedly outside the mainstream consensus that John Wilkes Booth died.

Where I think WP:FRINGE gets misapplied is when I've seen it used to undermine the citation of textual humanities scholarship. e. g. Wikipedia does not say in Wikivoice that Jesus was resurrected because that entails a biological claim about human bodies and there's no consensus in biology for human resurrection via a deity's magical divine powers. However, citing (as a hypothetical example) a Journal of Biblical Literature paper to have Gospel of John, for instance, say that the raising of Lazarus foreshadows the resurrection of Jesus in the plot of the Gospel of John—that shouldn't, I think, be considered "fringe". The raising of Lazarus and resurrection of Jesus in history are unverifiable claims that contradict mainstream consensus about biology and anatomy; the raising of Lazarus and the resurrection of Jesus as plot points in the New Testament are verifiable (other scholars can read the New Testament and confirm whether or not those are part of the plot), and the former foreshadowing the latter is an academic interpretive claim that can be cited and attributed.

Personal anecdotal evidence isn't robust enough to make any sweeping claim, of course, so I'll leave it at saying I've been party/witness talk page interactions where citations to sources about the plot content of religious texts have been called "fringe" in what I think was a misapplication of the term and policy. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 03:37, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:FRINGE was indeed mis-invoked, used to argue that the Resurrection, or raising of Lazarus, are not "plot points" in the NT. Where did this happen? Bon courage (talk) 05:14, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

The resurrection/Lazarus/New Testament scenario was a hypothetical example in my comment; pardon if that hypotheticalness got muddled nearer the end. My experience was with with a different topic, though the scenario was similar: an editor at Talk:Ammonihah characterized descriptions of a religious text's plot content as "fringe"/"fringe sourcing" and on that basis removed descriptions and citations en masse. Concerns about level of detail and due inclusion might have had some place in the discussion, but I didn't and don't think it's in our guideline to apply "fringe" to plot summaries or textual studies that don't impinge on reality. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 09:03, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

In context it might have been as if we (in effect) say it is a fact and not (for example) a religious belief it might violate fringe, after all people can't walk across water. Slatersteven (talk) 09:06, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I've looked at the page's revision history and searched the talk page. I see a lot of removal of unsourced content, but I cannot see any denial of "plot points". Where are the diffs of these removals or denials? I know the editor concerned can't answer back so this makes it especially important the case is clear. Bon courage (talk) 11:39, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I see a lot of removal of unsourced content: Before the editor removed sources that he called fringe sourcing, there were in-line citations at the end of every paragraph (and at the end of nearly every sentence as well). As for diffs, see the difference here: every edit in that span except for one was by the same editor, JPS. Only one edit in that span was made by a different editor, when I removed JPS's addition of "???" into the body text. Compare this result to the version of the article that passed reviews at Did You Know). On the talk page, JPS called the article WP:PROFRINGE advocacy and accused editors of using fringe sourcing to support pet theories. These "fringe" claims and "pet theories" seemingly included that religious studies scholars say a book produced by Christians to spread a Christian religion depicts Christian characters (non-Mormon academics cited to verify that summarization of the book's plot were implied, and then confirmed, to be considered lunatic charlatans by JPS; see the thread that ends Whachagonnado), or that one of the characters says his god forbids him from invoking a miracle to rescue suffering people (the "Suffering" section that is gone), or that stories written to be set in the past can be set in the past; and the "fringe sourcing" seemingly included an article published by the European Mormon Studies Association that treated the Book of Mormon as a product of the nineteenth century (Stott's "Martyrdoms at Ammonihah") and another article published in the journal Dialogue that was cited to state that the story about a city kicking a bunch of people out and making them refugees has a plot beat about people getting kicked out of a city and becoming refugees (Kim, Warnick, & Johnson, "Hospitality in the Book of Mormon").

The points about clarity of word choice land well enough; discussion about excessive details and due inclusion in the plot summary from a different editor were good points. But the impression and effect of the talk page comments went beyond 'this is phrased oddly' or 'is this claim due?' and well into a territory that seemed to result in most claims about the book and its contents being "fringe" unless they matched JPS's personal research agenda and his apparent interest in Nephite ecclesiology, a background element of the setting (see his What is the Nephite Christian Church? on the talk page and his addition to the article of an unsourced section about that). Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 12:37, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

The article body text had been written specifically to never describe the contents of the relevant religious text as if they were external factual reality. It's the difference between, to use your example:

• Jesus walked across water circa 30 C. E. (This is "fringe", in Wikipedia's parlance, as there's no consensus in the fields of physics or fluid dynamics for a person walking on water via divine magic)
• Many Christians believe that Jesus walked across water circa 30 C. E. (This is not "fringe", as it's a consensus in the field of religious studies that there are lots of Christians who believe the miracles attributed to a person named Jesus happened)
• In the sixth chapter of the Gospel of Mark, Jesus walks on water. (This is not "fringe", as it's consensus in the field of New Testament scholarship that the plot of this chapter involves Jesus walking on water)

On the last example, the difference between Jesus as a consensus historical person versus the consensus of how the New Testament describes Jesus (effectively a character in the text) matters. It's like how it wouldn't do to say in Wikivoice that FDR met and got along with an orphan named Annie, but it's entirely accurate to say that in the musical Annie, FDR meets Annie, and they get along well. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 12:40, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, I'm seeing disagreements about weight, sourcing and wording but not this denial of major 'plot points' akin to the Resurrection, as was complained about. And if an editor is over-interested in the "Nephite Christian Church" that is not really an issue with WP:FRINGE. The wording "In the sixth chapter of the Gospel of Mark, Jesus walks on water" is poor; for texts which combine fact and fiction it is good to be clear which is which. Pontius Pilate was a real historical figure; walking on water is fiction. It's analogous to wanting to say "In Solzhenitsyn's autobiographical novel Cancer Ward doctors discover the local peasants cure cancer using chaga mushrooms". Bon courage (talk) 13:01, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

This is what I suspected, religious people claiming its true, noi that is Fringe. I do not get to say that "Flashman won the VC" but I say the "fictional character Flashman won the VC". Unless of croused we make it clear it is a work of fiction, "plots" can't be used as RS for "facts". Slatersteven (talk) 13:07, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

One shouldn't say "Flashman won the VC"; using the past tense implies the historical past tense, implying reality. Saying "In [novel], Flashman wins the VC" is the use of the literary present tense. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 13:18, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

So it would then be OK to say "in the bible" or "according to the bible, Jesus walked on water". So yes, I agree that would be fine. Slatersteven (talk) 13:24, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

texts which combine fact and fiction: It was my impression that there is no mainstream consensus for the Book of Mormon combining fact and fiction because the mainstream consensus is that no element of it is factual. Any wikivoice reference to material internal to the Book of Mormon is necessarily reference to textual material, not historical material.

Well, I'm seeing disagreements about weight, sourcing and wording but not this denial of major 'plot points': I suppose we disagree about that; JPS articulated his comments in terms of "fringe", and his rejection of the notion, generally agreed upon by scholars writing about Mormonism, that Jesus-believing characters written by Christians are meant to be read as Christians, seemed like a denial of a major element of the plot. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 13:30, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

The examples given were the Resurrection, Lazarus and Jesus walking on water, with concerns WP:FRINGE could be used to suppress such major plot elements with vast amounts of secondary coverage. Presumably anything Mormon-related is much more, well, fringe and there's a danger of walled-garden sourcing, undue weight and privileging primary texts. Is no element of the book of Mormon factual? If so, then yes, it can be treated explicitly like fiction. Bon courage (talk) 13:50, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Is no element of the book of Mormon factual? However it does make falsifiable assertions about history and other religious texts that run into the same issues as '"In Solzhenitsyn's autobiographical novel Cancer Ward doctors discover the local peasants cure cancer using chaga mushrooms"'. JoelleJay (talk) 16:08, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Does anybody actually believe that Mormon stuff about prophets in America, or claim that it's real? If so, I suppose such claims obtrude into the realm of reality and do need to be presented neutrally (i.e. as fiction). It boils down to judgement; nobody is going to claim that because it's in Harry Potter, Kings Cross Station actually has a "Platform 9 and ¾"!! (Oh ...[1]) Bon courage (talk) 17:09, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Mormons (and their theologians) believe it. I'm sure that like any other religion not everyone is on the same page, but the Church doctrine is the BoM is an accurate historical record of events which actually occurred. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:15, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

the same issues as '"In Solzhenitsyn's autobiographical novel Cancer Ward doctors discover the local peasants cure cancer using chaga mushrooms"': I'm not sure I'm really clear on why that example is an issue. If one is summarizing the novel, and if that aspect of the plot is somehow useful context for other analysis or reception, then saying that in a plot summary section seems like simply a matter of summarizing relevant plot. One doesn't worry too much that someone reading Annie will come away with the impression that a young orphan was the real inspiration for the New Deal because of sentences like Warbucks brings Annie to Washington, D.C., where she meets President Franklin D. Roosevelt. Roosevelt and his Cabinet are inspired by her optimism and decide to make it a cornerstone of their administration. If there is a concern about the effects of chaga being taken as too real, one could add an explanatory footnote saying Chaga mushrooms do not actually have this effect on cancer or something, or a section providing more thorough explanation of what parts of this Solzhenitsyn fictionalized and what he didn't. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 18:59, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

It's a little awkward, I'd say. Using the term autobiographical novel inevitably fudges the line between what was fictionalized and what wasn't. It would be worse if the claim were about something less dramatic than "the local peasants cure cancer". Suppose a sentence ran, In Solzhenitsyn's autobiographical novel Cancer Ward, the main character has a romance with a nurse. Should we take that as a statement about Solzhenitsyn's life, or not? Likewise, if a religious text makes a claim about a historical figure doing a thing that a historical figure could easily be imagined as doing, then we have to exercise caution to avoid ascribing actions to historical figures that aren't attested in history proper. XOR'easter (talk) 18:40, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

There is only a point in such discussions if the result has an impact on what we do about it. So, what sets a fringe position apart from a non-fringe position? Here are three important points from WP:FRINGE:

• It should not get undue weight.
• It is framed by a field, within which there are mainstream views and fringe views.
• It needs attribution.

For religious views, it is obvious anyway that they need attribution (only certain religions believe in reincarnation or resurrection). Weight is determined by popularity (if only David Icke believes in a reptilian god, it does not belong anywhere except in the article about him), and there is no field for religion because religions tend to encompass everything. There are religiously inspired claims within particular field which are clearly fringe (creationism, faith healing, and so on) but the religious aspect has no bearing on that. I do not see what this discussion is aiming to achieve. Maybe it's just me, but it looks as if, whether religions turn out to be fringe or not fringe, they will not be handled differently from how they are handled now. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:55, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

There are also views that are fringe within a religion, which sometimes comes up. For example, Arianism or Gnosticism are / were fringe views within Christianity as a whole (as were several of the Mormon beliefs mentioned above.) They have to be treated with caution and referenced with attribution that makes this clear - sometimes we do get editors who treat their personal religious beliefs as applicable to the broader faith. --Aquillion (talk) 18:48, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think religion belongs here, the connection seems to be that self described 'rational' people don't like pseudoscience or religion. We need good sources on religion, but this is a POV area attracting users who don't understand it and are implicitly hostile. Secretlondon (talk) 07:27, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Religion doesn't belong here, but some things do. The E-meter doesn't get an exempt-from-fringe pass because it's associated with a religion, for example (Scientology). Bon courage (talk) 07:41, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

• I am somewhat disappointed by the fervor with which people here are seemingly champing at the bit to say incredibly inflammatory things about how religion is fiction and it's a conspiracy theory and it sucks and whatever.

In general, my understanding is that religious tolerance is one of the central and most crucial Enlightenment ideals, by which humanity was able to achieve its current state of great intellectual, economic, and scientific sophistication. Do you guys know how many people got their intestines splattered on the ground for thousands of years over differences in religion? Well, it was a lot. The consensus on which modern society rests -- notice how after reaching this consensus we have airplanes and penicillin? -- is for us humans to do our best to avoid stabbing each other over issues of the divine.

It's not always the easiest thing to strike a balance on, but generally, where we can do so, we should: "Christians believe that Jesus walked on water", et cetera. For reincarnation, for example, it actually cannot be proven whether or not this happens, so we do not say either way or the other in our article. This is fine. This does not need to change. We do not need to {{failed verification}} and demand "a study" (?) showing that Ahura Mazda is the source of all goodness and does battle with Angra Mainyu.

To take one of the seemingly flippant comments made here at face value -- that it's WP:FRINGE to believe God is real -- I am actually not aware of any publications in actual scientific fields like geology or astrophysics (i.e. real papers in reputable journals, not blog posts or screenshots of NDT tweets or viral reddit memes) which make direct claims about whether the Universe has divine presence. Geologists are not simply too stupid to realize that they should stop writing papers about the Oligocene melting of subducted mélange and start writing papers about the more interesting subject of how God isn't real -- the fact that they don't generally do this is a basic principle of the global society in which the modern institution of science lives and operates. Indeed, speaking empirically, a great deal of intellectual progress was given to us by people who have very different opinions from us, and from each other.

A Wikipedia where all content was strictly required to conform to the tenets of logical positivism would be an interesting case study, but I don't think it would be a very good encyclopedia. By the same token, I think we would have much more to learn -- we would have a better educational resource -- from a Wikipedia where Christians/Muslims/Jews/Taoists/Buddhists/Sikhs/Hindus/Mormons/Zoroastrians/etc are subjected to an absolute minimum of lectures about how they are superstitious morons. jp×g🗯️ 08:44, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

an absolute minimum of lectures about how they are superstitious morons ← it's language like this which lies at the heart of the problem, seeding and stoking up the drama. To be clear nobody should be doing any lecturing about how anybody else is a 'superstitious moron' at all, and so far as I can see these words appear nowhere else here. Bon courage (talk) 09:10, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I think part of the reason is we did not invoke wp:plot, which kind of applies to fiction. Either is is fact, opinion or fiction. Its not fact so it must be one of the other two. Slatersteven (talk)

I'm not entirely sure how invoking or not invoking WP:PLOT pertains or if it even implies fiction. WP:PLOT, or WP:NOTPLOT as it appears at the page, is not a rule about fiction but rather a policy that Wikipedia articles shouldn't be [s]ummary-only descriptions of works. The policy has nothing to do with whether a work claims to be fact or fiction and applies equally to fiction, video games, documentaries, research books or papers, and religious texts. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 09:21, 18 April 2024 (UTC)<

You are right I meant MOS:PLOT. Slatersteven (talk) 09:33, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

That guideline is about fiction, true, but the spirit of it is IMO helpful when writing about religious stories, since they have plots too. WP:RSPSCRIPTURE includes a link to that guideline. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I am somewhat disappointed by the fervor with which people here are seemingly champing at the bit to say incredibly inflammatory things about how religion is fiction and it's a conspiracy theory and it sucks and whatever. I don't know what page you're reading because none of that appears on this page. Ironically, this totally false allegation is the most inflammatory thing on this page.

I am actually not aware of any publications in actual scientific fields like geology or astrophysics (i.e. real papers in reputable journals, not blog posts or screenshots of NDT tweets or viral reddit memes) which make direct claims about whether the Universe has divine presence.

• Carroll, Sean B. (2007). "God as Genetic Engineer". Science. 316 (5830): 1427–1428. doi:10.1126/science.1145104. ISSN 0036-8075.
• Noble, Denis (2008). "For a Redefinition of God". Science. 320 (5883): 1590–1591. doi:10.1126/science.1159912. ISSN 0036-8075.
• De Duve, Christian (1988). "Did God make RNA?". Nature. 336 (6196): 209–210. doi:10.1038/336209b0. ISSN 0028-0836.
• Cobb, Matthew (2001). "Wondrous order". Nature. 413 (6858): 779–779. doi:10.1038/35101666. ISSN 0028-0836.
• Scott, Eugenie C. (2006). "Creationism and Evolution: It's the American Way". Cell. 124 (3): 449–451. doi:10.1016/j.cell.2006.01.028. ISSN 0092-8674.
• Hoekstra, Hopi E. (2009). "The Evolution Ringmaster". Cell. 139 (3): 454–455. doi:10.1016/j.cell.2009.10.013. ISSN 0092-8674.

Pro tip: "I am actually not aware of any publications ..." says more about your awareness than about any publications. Levivich (talk) 12:41, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Pro tip [sic]: I said real papers; you have linked a book review, a book review, a letter to the editor, an op-ed, a book review, and a book review, none of which are papers... second of all, none of these seem to say anywhere that God is not real (did you actually read them?) -- they argue that evolution is real (which agrees with the official doctrine of the Catechismus Catholicae Ecclesiae 1992 but I am not really sure what the connection is to the existence of God). jp×g🗯️ 18:49, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

References

The thing about book reviews is that books that get reviewed in journals like Science, Nature, and Cell, count as "real papers." Even better than papers, those are "real books," as in real scientific works that directly talk about science and religion and the existence of God, and are taken really seriously by real scientists writing reviews in real journals.

Letter to the editor, meh, I guess you have sort of a point that that's neither a peer reviewed paper nor a scholarly monogram, but still, a letter to the editor written by Christian de Duve published in Nature counts to demonstrate that real, serious scientists are discussing this in real, serious science journals. After all, typical letters to the editor do not have footnotes citing scientific papers and books--well, except letters to the editor in scientific journals.

As for reading it and quotes, here you go, in order:

1. In reviewing a book that argues (to quote the reviewer) "In short, God is a genetic engineer, somehow designing changes in DNA to make biochemical machines and higher taxa," the reviewer writes, "My goal here is to point out he critical flaws in Behe's key arguments..." In other words, the reviewer is arguing with the book about whether God is responsible for RNA/DNA/genetics. Yeah, that counts as real science really arguing about whether God exists.
2. Again, a review of a book that argues for a God concept. To quote the reviewer: "...But why should we call any of this 'God'? Kauffman's God is not even given the power that the Deists recognize ... as Kauffman notes, there are religions (notably Buddhism) that do not postulate a Creator God and for whom nature is sacred to a high degree ... So, could his concept of God as nature's ceaseless creativity be convincing? As he expects, believers in a Creator God will strongly disagree with him, whereas humanists are not likely to adopt a word they have expunged from their language." Sounds like an argument about the existence and nature of God to me.
3. Letter to the editor discussed above; admittedly de Duve is using "God" tongue in cheek and not really arguing for or against its existence; strike that one if you'd like
4. "there is neither Creator nor Design, but simply adaptation" is pretty f'ing clear, eh?
5. A review of a Dawkings book. 'nuff said.

HTH. Levivich (talk) 20:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

So yes, you agree with my claim that none of these things come remotely close to constituting scientific evidence that "God does not exist"? The statement "humanists are not likely to adopt a word they have expunged from their language" written in a book review does not, in any universe, logically equate to "God does not exist". The full sentence from which you've quoted the phrase "there is neither Creator nor Design, but simply adaptation" is, again, from an editorial piece -- this is the author's opinion. This is not an objective scientific claim being made on behalf of the journal Nature.

The entire concept of religion is not "fringe" because some guy wrote an op-ed in Nature saying that evolution was true. No amount of evolution being true causes this to be the case.

I get the feeling that you are simply following some kind of script developed in the early 2000s for winning arguments against creationists, rather than reading the things I'm writing and writing responses to them. To clarify, I am not Andrew Schlafly, founder of Conservapedia, and I do not think that God created the world over the course of seven days a couple thousand years ago. The arguments you are deploying against this belief are not relevant to my original claim, which (to reiterate) is that the accusation that all religion is "fringe" is a patently uncollegial thing to post and earnestly defend on a Wikipedia noticeboard, and that whether or not religious metaphysical claims are true is almost never within the remit of a Wikipedia noticeboard for pseudoscience. jp×g🗯️ 22:19, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

So it's not fringe unless there is scientific evidence that "God does not exist"? You know that's not how it works. A thing isn't WP:FRINGE because it has been scientifically disproven. A thing is WP:FRINGE if it "departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field."

There are no objective claims made on behalf of the journal Nature in the journal Nature. You know that's not how it works. Journals don't make claims, authors do.

What you said, that I responded to, was this: I am actually not aware of any publications in actual scientific fields like geology or astrophysics (i.e. real papers in reputable journals, not blog posts or screenshots of NDT tweets or viral reddit memes) which make direct claims about whether the Universe has divine presence. I showed you a real paper in a reputable journal that said there is neither Creator nor Design, but simply adaptation. That is a direct claim about whether the Universe has divine presence, in a book review in Cell. I disproved what you claimed. Levivich (talk) 02:37, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I apologize in advance, as I am still regretful for my part in kicking up this hornet's nest. But again, for me this all comes down to levels of abstraction. There are absolutely many theistic claims that are easily debunked and most certainly fall into the fringe category. But the ultimate theistic claim just isn't susceptible to scientific investigation in the same way. The article about Behe and the Dover school brouhaha is a very good example: you say that that "counts as real science really arguing about whether God exists." But it clearly is not that! It is absolutely a rejection of Behe's ideas (that Darwinian evolution cannot be responsible for various traits), but it does not say there is not some sort of god. It is certainly entirely possible to imagine a deity working through evolution. Ditto for the Dawkins review, which mentions God precisely once: in the name of his book The God Delusion. Any theory which rejects Darwinian evolution is absolutely fringe. I don't see how there can be any doubt about that. But if I have a theory that a deity started evolution, from exactly what mainstream theory am I departing? If I say 'evolution doesn't exist' or 'the big bang (or hyperinflation, what have you) never happened,' then I am absolutely in the world of fringe. If I say "I agree with all the science, but I feel there must have been a prime mover," I am not actually in conflict with scientific theory. It's just not a claim which is cognizable by science. Again, I am no fan of religion and I don't even think this is about ultimate meaning in any way, really; for me it is much more about accepting the epistemic limitations which restrain us all. The scientific method is, for my money, far and away the greatest (and really only) tool we have for understanding the universe. That doesn't mean, however, that it can answer every question. With that, I will wish everyone a happy Friday eve and again, sorry for instigating. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 04:00, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

@JPxG: "I am somewhat disappointed by the fervor with which people here are seemingly champing at the bit to say incredibly inflammatory things about how religion is fiction and it's a conspiracy theory and it sucks and whatever." As the kids say diffs or it didn't happen... You can't just cast aspersions like that without backing them up and I don't think those aspersions can be backed up. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:23, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I can quote directly from this single section:

• Which all religions do, which is what makes all religions fringe, within the meaning of WP:FRINGE: an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field.
• I believe I am 234 foot tall leprechaun that was birthed in the core of Jupiter
• why don't we treat [Lazarus or Jesus's resurrections] the same as the other zombies?
• religious studies is the mainstream while theology is the fringe
• The theory that any such thing (triune deity, unitary deity, minor deity, demigod, angel, unicorn, dragon, giant, bigfoot, etc is fringe) actually exists or existed as a real being is fringe
• Theism -- that there exists a God -- is WP:FRINGE

Now we are ready for the part where someone asserts that calling something "fringe" is actually not derisive, and not an insult, and there's no evidence that anyone uses it that way, and rather a totally neutral descriptor with no bearing on something's merit, et cetera, even though "being profringe" is sitebannable. jp×g🗯️ 18:04, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

"Fringe" as used on this page means WP:FRINGE, and no, it's not derisive or an insult, and if you can't handle reading someone arguing that all religions are (or contain) WP:FRINGE without considering that an example of "fervor" and "champing at the bit to say incredibly inflammatory things about how religion is fiction and it's a conspiracy theory and it sucks and whatever," then this is not a discussion for you. Religion is fiction, religion is fringe, and I'm not insulting anyone or saying anything inflammatory by saying that. I don't have to pretend that it's true, or might be true, in order to avoid giving someone offense. This is an encyclopedia, a book of science. Levivich (talk) 20:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I also laughed at the 2005 bash.org quote about getting kicked out of Barnes and Noble for moving the Bibles to the fiction section, but to do this bit on an international project to write a collaborative encyclopedia with culturally diverse participants spanning the globe is childish. jp×g🗯️ 22:03, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

None of that seems to call religion fiction, a conspiracy theory, or that it sucks. Are they meant to be examples of inflammatory comments? Is the argument the classic one that encyclopedias are inherently anti-religious because they don't elevate the sacred over the profane? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:32, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Notwithstanding the comment directly above yours, written 25 minutes before it, that literally says "Religion is fiction, religion is fringe, and I'm not insulting anyone or saying anything inflammatory by saying that", as an explanation of one of the comments I quoted in my original post? jp×g🗯️ 22:06, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Presumable from before you made your comment, not after. Anything inflammatory... Anything at all. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 06:36, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

This is about can we use the plot of the bible as a source for its claim, correct? THis is where the issue stems form as to many science books do not have "plots" and history books do not have "plots". Thus it is easy to see anyone making that claim as (in effect) saying that religious books have "plots", not "facts", and that sits better with the idea of fiction. That is why (I at least) have talking about is fiction, as there are really only a few ideas here, either the bible is true, or it is false, it is either fact or fiction. Slatersteven (talk) 15:36, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Not really, it's a mixture. There was, in fact, an Egypt led by a Pharaoh, a Rome that was led by a Caesar, etc. It's not all fiction. Levivich (talk) 15:39, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Nor are the Flashman novels, they are still fiction (hence the analogy to fiction, real history books do not contain fiction, that is a specific genre). What we can't do is treat religion as some special case when it comes to finger opinions. If the Bible says it we can't treat it as fact, but as attributed opinions (at best). Slatersteven (talk) 15:47, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

True. Reliable sources should be 100% fact and 0% fiction, not a mixture. Levivich (talk) 15:52, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

That aspiration is understandable. Yet even generally reliable sources publish untruths (many conversations about The New York Times, The Guardian, Al Jazeera, etc.), which is why our guidelines direct us to avoid depending on only one source for a topic. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 17:52, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Fair point: "100% fact" is an unrealistic standard :-) Levivich (talk) 20:08, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

(Merely for clarity, histories can have plots, especially narrative histories. Of course these plots are, or are supposed to be, rooted in reality and not invented, and research and accuracy remain the primary purposes of history, but there is a "plot" to a book like Ron Chernow's Hamilton, about the rise and fall of Alexander Hamilton in early U. S. politics, for instance. The raw data of history, archival primary source material, doesn't have plot; but a historian (especially a narrative historian) assembles the information into something readable—often taking cues from conventions of plot.)

I may have let my point get lost. I'm not looking to make a special exception for citing religious texts without consensus historical grounding. I just remain perplexed by the experience of having cited secondary sources to make the from what I can tell non-fringe claim that 'religious text X says Y in it' (it doesn't violate physics or biology or history to say that a book says something) and another editor having averred that such claims (about the contents of the book, not about events in reality) are fringe. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 17:49, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

For example, "The first chapter of the Book of Ezekiel says that the prophet saw a UFO" would a fringe claim about the story within the book. A statement about the reading or the interpretation of a passage can get converted, even unintentionally, to a statement about the contents of that passage. That can happen in an overt way or a subtle one (the example here being on the overt side). XOR'easter (talk) 18:31, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't feel that we should ever use the texts of major world religions themselves as the sole direct source for anything except perhaps the most trivial detail (and even then, ideally a secondary source will eventually be added.) The smallest details of interpretation and framing of these texts can have extremely serious implications to the faith. This isn't like trying to write an article about some random novel - the Bible, for instance, is the most heavily-analyzed and written-about book in all of human history. The idea that there could be any encyclopedic aspect of it that lacks a secondary source is absurd. For more obscure religious texts we might be forced to rely on the text itself, but for major ones like this it should be trivial to find secondary sourcing, which will help us avoid stating marginal interpretations or individual editor's WP:OR about the texts as fact. WP:PRIMARY sources are for extremely simple uncontroversial details and basic uncontested facts; I don't think there are many such details when it comes to major religious texts, where almost every single word or phrase has been subject to interpretation, reinterpretation, religious conflicts and so on. --Aquillion (talk) 05:58, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Are religious matters outside the scope of the Fringe Theory Board

I was reading the comments here, and they seemed to be headed nowhere. The original poster seemed to be thinking that matters of faith should not be within the scope of this board. In order to get this thread going somewhere, I will propose what I believe the original poster was thinking: Proposal: Matters of faith are outside the scope of WP:FTN, and are not appropriate to bring to this venue for review. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Big Money Threepwood (talk • contribs) 03:35, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

• This is really unhelpful. As "religious matters" is an impossibly vague phrase. Render under WP:FRINGE that which is due to WP:FRINGE, and sometimes that will overlap with "religious matters". It's not fringe to say that in ancient Greek religions Zeus is king of the Gods; it is fringe to assert a sick child doesn't need to go to ER because Christian Science#Healing practices will suffice for medical care (and hence discussion about how Wikipedia covers that matter would be appropriate here). Bon courage (talk) 04:59, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:09, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

  Agree entirely with the above. There are many religious matters that strike me as being clearly within the remit of this board. My only quibble would be that not all religious matters fall within that remit merely by dint of being religious in nature. Happy Friday, everyone! Dumuzid (talk) 12:31, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

• No but with a caveat Religious matters are not outside the remit of this board when they are fringe religious matters - where the board extends beyond its remit is if it begins to treat religious thought as de-facto fringe on the basis that science disproves religion. However, in religious studies, as in most fields of scholarship, there are fringe positions and those should be identified and treated according to applicable policy on fringe positions. Simonm223 (talk) 12:21, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
• What is a "matter of faith" in this context? Is for example the age of the earth a matter of faith? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:02, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

• When a religion claims something that can't be proven true or proven false (existence of God / Xenu / Flying Spaghetti Monster, you go to heaven when you die) it is outside our scope. We just report that religion X claims Y. When they make a claim that is testable (the earth is less than 10,000 years old, the stars are all closer than 10,000 light years, Benny Hinn has the ability to cure diseases by touching people, there were horses, elephants, and steel swords in the New World at the time of Christ) the religious beliefs are clearly within the scope of fringe theories. --Guy Macon Alternate Account (talk) 16:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

• I don't know how helpful this would be; on one hand it would feel like we'd done something, but on the other hand I don't think it would clarify anything. Instead of wondering whether something was "appropriate for this noticeboard", everyone would just have to wonder whether something was "concerning a matter of religious faith", which doesn't really seem any easier. jp×g🗯️ 17:37, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
• Context matters - noting that Jesus is said to have turned water into wine is not a Fringe claim in an article about the Wedding at Cana. Noting this in an article on viticulture, on the other hand would be. Blueboar (talk) 19:09, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
• Nothing becomes outside the remit of this noticeboard just because somebody slapped the label "faith" upon it. Heck, some people hold onto conspiracy theories like they're articles of faith: not just believing in the absence of evidence, not just believing despite evidence to the contrary, but binding up their belief with their notions of what it means to be a good person. QAnon can't be separated from religious extremism. XOR'easter (talk) 05:48, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
• Wikipedia does not determine the truth of sacred texts since experts themselves are generally divided on these matters. Most of the religious claims like Muhammad spoke with Angel Gabriel are actually historical claims and here historians take a neutral stance on historical supernatural claims. Attribution is useful here. And yes context makes a difference. Ramos1990 (talk) 19:34, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
• Religious matters can't possibly be all outside the purview of this board. It is claimed in some circles that Jesus was a transwoman with a fake beard a la Monty Python. Suppose somebody were to get such a theory published. Fringe, no? Hyperbolick (talk) 19:42, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  Even more mainstream claims can be fringe; if you say that Jesus actually fed 5000 people with five loads of bread (as opposed to Christians believe he did), or that Xenu actually murdered billions in Earths volcanos (as opposed to Scientologists believe he did) then that is a WP:FRINGE claim that is suited to this board. BilledMammal (talk) 05:58, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

• fringe is fundamentally stuff that goes against WP:RS/AC or is otherwise wp:undue ultimately it doesn't matter what field an article is in the point of this board is to make sure it follows those policies—blindlynx 18:21, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
• No, as I said above, all else aside there are always fringe views within a religion, and fringe interpretations of religious texts. For example, the Sermon on the Mount or the death and resurrection of Christ are views held in mainstream Christianity; the view that Christ secretly survived because his brother Isukiri was crucified in his stead, allowing him to go to Japan and eventually get buried in Shingō, Aomori is obviously fringe. And this does come up - sometimes editors will try to insert their own takes on religious works, or will present a fringe religious interpretation as mainstream. This is one reason why (referencing the above) we should generally avoid using religious texts themselves as citations for anything but the most obvious and straightforward aspects, because determining what reading and interpretation is mainstream involves analysis that is best left to secondary sources. When it comes to religion, even things that seem extremely straightforward and uncontroversial at a glance to someone unfamiliar with the topic might have deeply important nuances. (eg. consider the nature of the trinity in Christianity, where even the slightest variation in wording can take you away from mainstream Catholicism.) And of course there are also cases where religious beliefs overlap with other academic consensuses, eg. when it comes to historical or scientific things like faith healing or the historicity of some figures and events in religious texts - in those cases we ultimately have to go with the academic consensus and make that consensus clear, we can't just throw up our hands because religion is involved. --Aquillion (talk) 05:53, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
• Comment, just wanted to add that I read though each of the posts and think they were all pretty on point, you said the same thing over and over again each time trying to better explain. It was really great reading your same argument from different perspectives. Will be sharing this conversation with my team members as I often do. Great to be working along side you people, I learn so much from you all. Sgerbic (talk) 06:02, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Pre-Columbian transoceanic contact theories

Ok, this is always going to have fringe sources. But should it really have them in further reading? Barry Fell, Pohl, Sorenson, Ashe[2], Huyghe who is editor of the publisher[3], Mallery (see Piri Reis map#Amateur claims}, Farley Mowat? Looking at the references, I see that the reference "Reconciling Conflicting Phylogenies in the Origin of Sweet Potato and Dispersal to Polynesia" has a PubPeer discussion (I can see a big tag at the top of the article and at the reference) here, I'm not sure we should be using it. Doug Weller talk 08:16, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Integral theory

Some eyes more experienced in fringe matters could be used at Integral theory (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). I removed a lot of unsourced material, but it got restored. Some sources got added, but not enough. Many of the cited sources appear to be self-published or otherwise inferior. Skyerise (talk) 09:37, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Neuro-linguistic programming

• Neuro-linguistic programming (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Recent flurry of activity including new articles:

• Frogs into Princes (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch
• The Structure of Magic (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

--Hob Gadling (talk) 07:06, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

I did some maintenance on the articles for the books. The Structure of Magic needs some attention still because of the way it presents the subject, and both need reception. Reconrabbit 20:44, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Reincarnation needs updating

Virtually nothing about this century, a section on the last two. I found this today [4] which could be used. Doug Weller talk 12:25, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Tesla, Inc.'s founders

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Tesla, Inc. § Rfc regarding Tesla's founders. I think that there is a relevant topic on whether or not the view that there are 5 founders is a fringe view, which would decide whether we should replace the founders parameter altogether with a link to the section about Tesla's founding. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:40, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Anachronisms in the Book of Mormon

New editor restoring deleted text, interesting edit summary for one edit: “ Restores the apologist perspective that had been up for years. No basis given to remove it, other than the individual hates the LDS Church )” Special:Contributions/Pombedo11!. There was a discussion at Talk:Anachronisms in the Book of Mormon. Doug Weller talk 19:06, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I have gone through the article and removed a lot of "Apologist perspective" sections. In some cases I retained the perspective but removed the "Apologist perspective" headings. In most cases, however, the perspective presented amounted to hand-waving WP:SYNTH of sources that fail to mention anything about the Book of Mormon, or were cited to primary sources, or relied on religious belief. I removed all of those. There was an over-arching tone of "if something can be interpreted in a way that resolves the anachronism, regardless of lacking evidence, then that must be the correct interpretation."

The only problem I see is that the lead now summarizes the typical methods of rebuttal by Mormon scholars but the article body doesn't really elaborate on that, so the lead now has an orphan summary. The article could use a separate section with selected examples from the content I removed. What the article doesn't need is a he-said/she-said point/counterpoint format like it had before. ~Anachronist (talk) 06:32, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

George Knapp again

Heavy rewrite by User: ‎DuncanGT [5] including unsourced and making it appear that Knapp got awards for his UFO stuff. Tried to revert to earlier version but failed for some reason. Doug Weller talk 10:06, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Notified them and saw they've had a ct alert for fringe. Doug Weller talk 10:07, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

The first source in the lead now is " "I-Team: A look at how Bob Lazar interviews match up with Pentagon's admission of studying UFOs". KLAS." - written by Knapp himself. I think at least a page ban might be in order but I did a minor revert, not of this editor, a while ago. Doug Weller talk 11:36, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Hyksos in Armenia

This is about [6], please chime in. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:00, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Please can you let me know what is the problem of this article? Օֆելյա Հակոբյան (talk) 21:09, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not an expert upon the Hyksos, but my intuition that the edits were far-fetched was confirmed at [7].

In case you wonder, Disruptive editing: ethno-national advocacy, WP:BATTLEGROUND conduct is a valid reason for indeffing editors. See [8]. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment, but there are some facts that show the connection between Armenia and hyksos, surely we don't consider them as a final one, but we should at least mention that facts showing or guiding readers to study Armenian sources too. Can we write shorter content and only about the facts approving that connection, or you will delate it? Օֆելյա Հակոբյան (talk) 21:31, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not actually aware of a single scholarly argument that the Hyksos were Armenian being taken credibly, but I admit that my history around the Hyksos is weak. Would you be able to provide some sources that meet WP:RS for this claim? I agree with @Tgeorgescu here. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:38, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Here is an English scholarly testimony: https://isac.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/shared/docs/saoc18.pdf, page 47, line 2. We should give the readers all the possible versions to know about their history. May be this will be a factor to help researcher to study the topic more thoroughly. So I consider it true to inform the reader about the variant of Hyksos's Armenian possible origins with reliable sources. Օֆելյա Հակոբյան (talk) 21:49, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I daresay the state of scholarship has moved on quite a bit from 1939, the date of your article. And in that article, the author is arguing for a sort of confluence between the Hurrians and Hyksos peoples--but not an equivalence of the two. Rather, he says there is linguistic evidence of Hurrian influence in Hyksos king names (I have heard this before, but never followed up on the claim). Associating the Hurrians with Armenia and the broader Lake Van area is not controversial at all. But the sourcing you have provided does not say what you want to put in the article, and would be far too little for what be a fairly extraordinary claim. But that's just one old shepherd's opinion. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 21:57, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

A single source from 1939 isn't going to convince anyone to upend our entire understanding of history and, by extension, rewrite the article.

"We should give the readers all the possible versions to know about their history."

This isn't how wikipedia works. We don't need to present theories with no mainstream acceptance or evidence because it appeals to a nationalist sense of pride. If you wish to inform readers of the true state of the scholarship, this isn't the way to go about it. I daresay accepting that the Hyksos aren't Armenian is probably a more scholarly way to go about it... Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:59, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, then I will write the statement in another format to give the readers opportunity to study the weak pages of our history. Օֆելյա Հակոբյան (talk) 22:03, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Without a credible source it's going to instantly be removed. The idea that the Hyksos were Armenians is, likely, a nationalist fantasy without any credible sourcing behind it. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 22:06, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Wide studied are done in Armenia and, unfortunately, they are still in Armenian, but surely there are English sources that shows it and hope soon Armenian sources will be available in English too. Օֆելյա Հակոբյան (talk) 22:10, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah… it’s not a real thing. I appreciate that many feel it is in Armenia, but it’s a similar situation to the Altaic language family in Turkey: widely popularly believed to be true, factually bunk. If Armenian scholars had meaningful evidence the Hyksos were Armenians one would think that some of that evidence would have been put forward to the wider archaeological community. Please do not try and edit this back into the article. It may warrant a mention that some nationalists have attempted to link the Hyksos to the Armenians, but any statement of that beyond it being a nationalist fantasy runs up against WP:ECREE. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 22:16, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I wrote most of the article and I know the current scholarly consensus pretty well. The Hyksos are believed to have been Semitic speakers from the Levant, definitely not Armenians. Also, they weren’t an ethnicity.—-Ermenrich (talk) 22:21, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Also: the Hurrian connection has been thoroughly debunked. The Hyksos have Semitic names.—Ermenrich (talk) 22:23, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

What I know about the Hyksos: the word means "foreign rulers" (of Egypt), and they were of Semitic origin. They were later expelled from Egypt. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:07, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Student editor I think could use some help at Phoenician Ship Expedition

Never a terribly good article in any case. I’m off to bed now but if anyone fells like advising them it would be nice, otherwise they may just get reverted. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 20:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Ordo Aurum Solis

After 12 years this article is still almost wholly sourced to Llewellyn Worldwide, itself a bad article. There are a few web links but they seem the same where they work. Doug Weller talk 13:02, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Probably better at WP:NPOVN, but now there's even a better place for such a primary source-based trainwreck: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ordo Aurum Solis. –Austronesier (talk) 20:50, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Original research and fringe (Shakespeare authorship question; Islamo-Arabic contributions in history of science) at Safa Khulusi

There is a discussion at Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard#Original research and fringe at Safa Khulusi which is relevant to this noticeboard. Please participate there. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 08:48, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I reverted the massive restoration and told them to discuss on the talk page, as well as briefly commenting there. Based on their behavior and that this is a new account, I'd suggest looking into the page history to see who added that material originally, and seeing if the latest account might be connected. For example, this account seems to have added a lot of material back in 2011 and 2012. See also this ANI thread and this SPI about that user. Crossroads ^-talk- 18:51, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, both the old accounts and the new one seem to be heavily focused on the Eric Ormsby quote (the "large quote" Boing was talking about in the ANI; cf. [9][10] vs [11][12][13]). Very likely the same user. Not sure if it's worth an SPI (accounts are going to be stale), but a clear consensus on the article talk or the NORN thread may help to prevent future disruption. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 20:32, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Reichstag fire

• Reichstag fire (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

I think that the article has WP:FALSEBALANCE; see Talk:Reichstag fire#Consensus. Historians may disagree with me. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:34, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Suissa and Sullivan

Since a big part of the argument is whether it's acceptable to cite a fringe source for non-fringe content, this may be of interest. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.8% of all FPs.} 02:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Guy McPherson

Guy McPherson is a professor in AZ who makes predictions. In 2007, he predicted that due to peak oil there would be permanent blackouts in cities starting in 2012. In 2012, he predicted the "likely" extinction of humanity by 2030 due to climate-change, and mass die-off by 2020 "for those living in the interior of a large continent". In 2018, he was quoted as saying "Specifically, I predict that there will be no humans on Earth by 2026". He has been interviewed on film, tv, radio, etc.. and is frequently the go-to person if you want an extreme version of climate change, peak oil, etc... He has a following.

He has been described by climate scientist Michael E. Mann as a "doomist cult hero." Michael Tobis, a climate scientist from the University of Wisconsin, said McPherson "is not the opposite of a denialist. He is a denialist, albeit of a different stripe." Andrew Revkin in The New York Times said McPherson was an "apocalyptic ecologist ... who has built something of an 'End of Days' following." The lead section summarizes these POVs, saying he engages in "fringe theories".

On the talk page, User:PESchneider, who has a disclosed COI with McPherson, has requested we remove "fringe theory" because this is a pejorative phrase and not in line with BLP, that McPherson bases his work on science papers, etc..

Should we characterize McPherson as a fringe theorist in the article, or some other wording? -- GreenC 17:35, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, near term human extinction is a fringe theory. Allan Nonymous (talk) 18:57, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

His speech on near term human extinction is on the blacklisted site globalresearch.ca according to his user page. His memories were published by PublishAmerica, now America Star Books and probably self-published. He doesn't have a COI with McPherson, according to his use page he IS McPherson. His userpage is a copy of the article as he first wrote it[14] and I believe at least that part should be deleted.

The list of his books on his article is too long and and written entirely by him which explains the number of books written by iterations of PublishAmerca, a book published by the now defunct TayenLane publishing (see [15]. Doug Weller talk 13:08, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

He wrote the existing one sentence description in the lead. I guess he's still technically there as [16] lists him as a professor emeritus, but he no longer seems to be teaching there.[17], THe last part of his list of accomplishments there is interesting.[18]. "America's Registry of Outstanding Professionals" seems very dubious although used in three articles.[19] A couple there seem ok, eg American Men & Women of Science. Doug Weller talk 13:45, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Reliably published book with a fringe chapter, The Geology of the Atlantic Ocean

The first chapter has a lot of fringe, eg [20] Searching that you can find:

"... Celts Perhaps earliest expeditions were those of Celts whose presumed records in Ogam script occur at many places in eastern North America ( Fig . 1 A), where the new- comers could have became established as hunters and farmers . The ..."

'... Celts , Iberians , and Libyans were associated in their explorations and settlements in the New World . Occasional presence of Egyptian Numidian , Hebrew , Basque , Roman , and "se scripts or words shows , reasonably enough , that..."

"... Libyans , all of whose ship routes lay nearby ( Fig . 1 ). Greek visits to the New World are uncertain . Al- though many short inscriptions in Greek are known and some words of Algonquian appear to be derived from that language , these ..."

"... Celtic ships . A stele in Yucatan denotes in Iberian the route of an expe- dition under the command of a Hanno , prince of Car thage . In fact, most of the identified sites have inscrip- tions in Celtic or Libyan as well as in Iberian ..."

"... Libyans were much influenced by the Greeks after Alexander's conquest of Egypt in 332 B.C. In fact, western New Guinea cave - wall inscriptions made in 232 B.C. by two Libyan captains , Maui and Rata , describe Eratosthenes ' ( of...a" which I think is from this fringe document.[21]

I don't think any of this is being used as a source for articles, but should it be discussed at RSN? Doug Weller talk 12:59, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

If it is not used as a source, what is the point? --Hob Gadling (talk) 19:57, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

@Hob Gadling The book itself is used in various articles, not that chapter. My question is that given the clear lack of proper editorial oversight, should this be taken to RSN as being unreliable for all of the book? Doug Weller talk 11:33, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, my bad. For some reason I thought the chapters had individual authors. They don't. This is all written by two authors, which for me casts doubt on all of the book. Doug Weller talk 11:37, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Ah, that makes more sense. --Hob Gadling (talk) 12:09, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:RSCONTEXT reminds us that context matters for reliable sources. Kenneth O. Emery was a marine geologist, and Elazar Uchupi was likewise trained in geology. A source that is reliable for certain claims (like the physiography of the Atlantic Ocean, a matter Emery and Uchupi seem trained and reputed for) can be unreliable for other claims (like trans-Atlantic oceanic voyages before the 1400s, a matter I would turn to archaeologists and historians for). Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 17:17, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Even for most scientific claims a book first published in 1984 is too old in context. Those are eminent scientists of the 1960s-1980s, not today. We really shouldn't be widely using this source. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:44, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Gregorian Bivolaru

Paranoid conspiracy theories are being stated in the voice of Wikipedia, see [22]. Note: this is a different issue from that reported at WP:NORN. tgeorgescu (talk) 19:25, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I took a quick run at that article before I saw you'd linked it here, and I cut that bit out entirely because it was definitely fringe/conspiracy-esque, but there's still a lot of the same kind of conspiratorial thinking about the subject's persecution left, and a lot of it was added today. EasyAsPai (talk) 19:59, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Yup, I'm not saying that WP:SOURCES written by Ion Cristoiu and Gabriel Andreescu would have been misleading or "wrong", just that they have been superseded by more recent events. Cristoiu and Andreescu were perfectly entitled to write about the abuses of the Romanian state and the villainies of the press, but the full truth became obvious much latter, when Finland and France issued European Arrest Warrants for Bivolaru, and the French authorities did arrest him in France (again).

Meaning: following a standard pattern that some occult forces use in their attempt to control and destroy any spiritual movement and any authentic spiritual guide, including Gregorian Bivolaru is a paranoid conspiracy theory. And that source is hagiography. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:07, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Pre-RfC stage @ Talk:Jinn

• Jinn (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch
• Pre-intimation:
• A user has proposed updates for consideration at this sand box for the article Jinn.
• Users are discussing DUE/UNDUE relevance and fringe-ness inputs requested also at Talk:Jinn#Comparative mythology.

As a discussion facilitator fyi a WP:DUE discussion (some aspects may touch WP:Fringe) is at Talk:Jinn#Pre-RfC stage's WP:RSN#Hachette Livre and WP:ORN step. After RSN and WP:ORN step, RfC formatting is likely to be discussed at Talk:Jinn#Pre-RfC in a new sub section. Bookku (talk) 07:20, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Argument from ignorance

• Argument from ignorance (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

As a way of reasoning used by fringe theorists, maybe only marginally relevant here. New user trying to force their opinion into the article. --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:04, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Stab-in-the-back myth

• Stab-in-the-back myth (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Another history subject edited by someone who does not believe in what WP:OR and WP:RS say. --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:15, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Yakub (Nation of Islam) has a new infobox

Which reads as though he was real. Doug Weller talk 10:58, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

No infobox is best infobox atm until I can find a better one. Apologies for the confusion, I just wanted to put the photo NAADAAN (talk) 15:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

{{Infobox character}} possibly, since he's a mythological figure.--Auric talk 21:06, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Depending on how "Yakub" is viewed within the religion, Template:Infobox deity or Template:Infobox saint may be appropriate. Both Template:Infobox person and Template:Infobox character could probably be modified well enough to make it work for this page. AnandaBliss (talk) 17:47, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Tariq Nasheed

User:Kodiak Blackjack has been heavily editing this article. Their latest edit is here[23] and changed "Tariq Allah Nasheed is an American film producer, and internet personality. He is best known for his Hidden Colors film series, as well as his commentary and promotion of conspiracy theories on social media.

tp: Tariq Allah Nasheed is an American filmmaker, anti-racism activist, and media personality. He is best known for his Hidden Colors film series, as well as his controversial views and commentary on race relations in the United States, institutional racism, and dating. plus other changes. Do we use newsone.com? I also see some old sources marked unreliable by Headbomb's script , eg YouTube, a tweet, etc. {{ref kust}} Doug Weller talk 16:03, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Hey, so I think you could've talked to me about this on my talk page before taking the nuclear option and bringing it to the noticeboard. You know, WP:GOODFAITH and all that?

I would say the bulk of my edits to the page have mainly been updating references (eg. giving them consistent refnames, making them list-defined, checking for dead sources, archiving, etc.) and resorting the prose from the Career and Views and reception into appropriate subheaders. I added a section to Personal life about his swatting in 2018, a subsection about his YouTube channel to his infobox (a la Jake Paul), and I did change the lede as you mentioned. I understand that when looking at diffs from before and after, the changes to the article seem pretty substantial, but I think you'll find that the majority of the prose is exactly the same as it was, but maybe just in a different place in the article.

• Re: the lede, I changed it because it's a more accurate summary of who he is and what he does. He is a media personality, not just an internet personality - he had already achieved some notoriety as an author in the early 2000s, before the Internet took off. The NewsOne/Dawson article lists those as what he's best known for, and it's more informative than the NYT opinion piece referenced previously (which is also behind a registration wall), which only mentions him once.
• Re: the YouTube video and Tweet. The YouTube video is his interview with KTTV about the swatting, which was reuploaded to his channel, and was referenced and embedded in the Atlanta Black Star article. The Tweet from IcePoseidon is his response to Nasheed, which is also embedded in the Atlanta Black Star article, and referenced to link back to/archive the primary source. Both are only supplementary to the actual article.

Not trying to make any huge waves here. Just trying to flesh out his page. — Kodiak Blackjack (talk) • (contribs) 16:46, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I don’t doubt your good faith and note I didn’t revert you, came here for more opinions. Doug Weller talk 17:35, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Ah, okay. I'm sorry if I came off as a bit overly defensive there, Doug. Anything in particular you want my opinion on?

• When it comes to the NewsOne article: I don't see any reason not to use it on the page, per se. I found this old RS discussion on the matter from 2023, and the consensus there was more or less "depends on a case-by-case basis, treat it like you would Buzzfeed." As far as I can tell, the article seems to be accurate, and there's a fair bit of information there that I haven't found elsewhere yet, so it'd be a big help when it comes to expanding Nasheed's page.
• I'm not familiar with Headbomb's script, so I don't know what sources it's flagging as unreliable. Anything besides the tweet from IcePoseidon and the YouTube video?
• As an aside, I can't find a single reliable source that says his middle name is Allah. I'm pretty sure it's something a vandal snuck into the article for the lulz and it's stayed there since. I'm inclined to get rid of it, but I'd feel like an ass if it was true.

...And it looks like most of my edits just got reverted by @Grayfell:. Summoning him here.— Kodiak Blackjack (talk) • (contribs) 20:47, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

"More opinions" means "opinions from more people". This is not the old "I want a second opinion, doctor" - "you are also ugly" joke. This noticeboard is for notifying knowledgeable people of an ongoing discussion so they can go there and participate in it. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:52, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Woah, hey, I'm sorry. I didn't really pick up on what he meant by that. My bad. — Kodiak Blackjack (talk) • (contribs) 19:07, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Middle name was added here. The ref in the infobox for the middle name was not reliable and somebody at some point removed the name and ref from the infobox but apparently missed it in the lead. Schazjmd (talk) 20:55, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

There are fringe issues here, for sure. There are also WP:BLP issues, and unreliable source issues, and due weight issues. Some of these changes were, as Kodiak Blackjack says, non-controversial, but this probably isn't the place to go into detail about which work and which don't. Briefly, Nasheed is both a conspiracy theorist (per sources) and commonly a target of other conspiracy theorists. Figuring out how to summarize this is difficult, but downplaying it by removing it from the lead won't work. Grayfell (talk) 21:00, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

@Schazjmd: Okay, thanks. Glad that's out of there, at least.

@Grayfell: Gonna address this one point at a time:

There are fringe issues here, for sure.

He's a fringe topic. Isn't it kind of unavoidable that fringe issues would crop up?

There are also WP:BLP issues

So, re: stochastic terrorism, since I assume this is what you're referring to - I don't see how it's not?

Definition of stochastic terrorism per its own article is:

"when a political or media figure publicly demonizes a person or group in a way that inspires supporters of the figure to commit a violent act against the target of the communication. Unlike incitement to terrorism, this is accomplished by using indirect, vague, or coded language that allows the instigator to plausibly disclaim responsibility for the resulting violence. A key element is the use of social media and other distributed forms of communications where the person who carries out the violence has no direct connection to the users of violent rhetoric."

• ✔️ Ice Poseidon is a media figure.
• ✔️ He publicly demonized Tariq Nasheed (as per his Tweet, which is also embedded in the Atlanta Black Star article), calling him "evil" and a "professional victim" (in the immediate wake of him getting swatted).
• ✔️ A reasonable person can assume that this would inspire Ice Poseidon's supporters, who have a history of anti-black racism (per Asarch 2018 and the Atlanta Black Star article) and have been implicated in similar swatting attempts against Nasheed before (per the KTTV interview, which is in the Atlanta Black Star article), to commit more violent acts against Nasheed, a black man, in the future.
• ✔️ The Tweet uses indirect, vague, or coded language that allows Ice Poseidon to deny responsibility for any resulting violence.
• ✔️ This took place over social media.

It's stochastic terrorism. If a reliable source says Alice set Bob's house on fire, Bob says in an interview embedded in the source that Alice set his house on fire, and another source says Alice has a history of childhood pyromania, would it be a BLP violation to link to arson?

And before you say, "it'd be a WP:SYNTH violation," the Atlanta Black Star article already embeds both Ice Poseidon's tweet and the interview inside it. A reasonable person can still come to the conclusion that it's stochastic terrorism without the additional article from Asarch 2018, in the same way that I can come to the conclusion that Alice is an arsonist who tried to burn Bob's house down without reading the article about her being a childhood pyromaniac.

and unreliable source issues

I only added a few sources to the article, those being:

• The aforementioned NewsOne article.
• The aforementioned Atlanta Black Star article.
  • The aforementioned YouTube video of the interview.
  • The aforementioned tweet by Ice Poseidon.
• The article about Ice Poseidon's supporters spamming the N-word in chat, which I directly took from his article.
• Nasheed's channel, for the YouTube part of his infobox - which I think is fine. I don't see why you wouldn't link to a YouTuber's YouTube channel when the infobox template tells you to.
• The source from Moguldom about the museum, which based on your edit summary, you didn't think was reliable, but I don't know why.

If you take issue with any of the other sources, like the Business Insider article, it wasn't me - they were there before I started editing the page.

I think you might be confused because I did rework a lot of the references that were there originally to incorporate stuff like archived links, consistent refnames, other parameters that were missing, stuff like that. I can see how that would look like a new source in a diff, but they weren't, and - no offense here - but I think you going scorched earth on anything that had my fingerprints on it was a little hasty.

and due weight issues

...Is this about removing "conspiracy theorist" from the lede? Is that what has everyone here all up in a tizzy?

I'm not trying to whitewash his article or downplay that he's a conspiracy theorist. I'm not on the Tariq Nasheed Defense Squad™ or anything.

When I started editing the page (and also the way it is right now, because of the reverts), that sentence had (has) no in-line citations following it. It was unsourced. Textbook WP:BLP violation. Of course I was going to delete it and rewrite the lede with something a little less pointed.

Some of these changes were, as Kodiak Blackjack says, non-controversial, but this probably isn't the place to go into detail about which work and which don't.

Should we move this to the talk page then?

I mean, to be frank, I'm not really sure why this is taking place there instead of here in the first place. Is this noticeboard just to discuss whether he should be considered a fringe topic or not? Because if it is... Yeah? He is. Unequivocally. And the Wikipedia:Contentious topics/Pseudoscience and fringe science notice should be added to his talk page. I'm honestly kind of surprised it hasn't been already.

Briefly, Nasheed is both a conspiracy theorist (per sources)

Sources that weren't in the lede.

and commonly a target of other conspiracy theorists

Figuring out how to summarize this is difficult, but downplaying it by removing it from the lead won't work.

see response to "and due weight issues"

Look, I get that this is a high-profile page, that's extended-protected, that's related to several contentious topics, that's a BLP and everything that comes along with that, that's also had at least two instances of a literal paid shill trying to edit the article to paint Nasheed in a more favorable light... but I'm literally just trying to contribute to it. I think everybody here is overreacting a little. — Kodiak Blackjack (talk) • (contribs) 22:47, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

A multiple-page contribution on a specific article, posted on a board for notices, certainly counts as overreacting. Can you do this discussion on the article talk page please? One of many reasons: it will be easier to find next year when someone wants to know the reason for the edits that resulted from the discussion. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:52, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

@Hob Gadling ok, mea culpa. But I just don't have the time or energy to handle this sort of thing by myself. I don't seem to know when it is ok to bring stuff here and when it is not. I will add another point, to describe him in Wikipedia's voice as anti-racist is just wrong. I:m sure he considers himself anti-racist. Doug Weller talk 08:05, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

mea culpa No! You did the right thing, posting a notice. That is what this board is for. After that, if people move discussion from the article talk page to here, that is out of your control. --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:00, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

@Hob Gadling Thanks for clarifying. I think our reply system confused me. Doug Weller talk 11:43, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

As I said, there are conspiracy theory issues here. Since Kodiak Blackjack removed the term 'conspiracy theorist' from the article's lead, this page is a reasonable place to get more eyes on that specific issue. There are also multiple other issues here, so resolving the 'conspiracy theory' issue alone wouldn't be sufficient to restore those other changes. Since sources do support that he is a conspiracy theorist, and those sources are cited in the body of the article, it is not a "textbook BLP violation' and downplaying that description is whitewashing the article even with the best of intentions.

As for Nasheed being targeted by other conspiracy theorists, for convenience, a source cited in that article helps explain how Nasheed's work was quoted and subverted by the 2022 Buffalo shooting murderer, which was tied to conspiracy theories. Grayfell (talk) 09:12, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

@Kodiak Blackjack There are sources for conspiracy theorist. Did you not read that part of the article? It’s sourced Doug Weller talk 18:47, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Oh, no, I know it's sourced in the article's body. It not being sourced in the lede is my point of contention. MOS:CITELEAD states that The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus. Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none. This article has two contentious article headers on its talk page, and it's a BLP, so I figured it'd probably be better to lean on the safe side. As I said over on the talk page, I'm fine with keeping conspiracy theorist in the lede, I just think we ought to have an in-line citation after it. — Kodiak Blackjack (talk) • (contribs) 18:59, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Jordan Peterson

The article on Jordan Peterson is clearly written by cultish fans intent on burying his numerous positions which conflict with reality, including his overt climate denial, his promotion of anti-vax ideas, his pro-Putin, pro-Russia stance, his right-wing talking points, and his continuing struggle with mental illness and drug addition. Strangely, none of this is found in the lead section. Viriditas (talk) 21:30, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I gave up on the article, too much of a mess. Doug Weller talk 17:37, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah. While I'm quite thoroughly aware of Peterson I question whether I have the patience, time or willingness to probably end up at an arbcom enforcement discussion that trying to fix that mess would engender. Simonm223 (talk) 18:11, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Can't read the lede without getting the urge to tag every line, sometimes several times.. Luther Blissetts (talk) 22:38, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Should we at least throw on a NPOV tag? —blindlynx 19:50, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I think maybe an RfC on the article to rewrite the lede might help, and, if issues persist, a WP:BLUELOCK. Allan Nonymous (talk) 22:33, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Speaking of which, there's a particular slant to Ralston College, the place he's chancellor of. Reconrabbit 19:37, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm carefully making a few small edits to the article to at least push it a bit in the right direction. We'll see what happens. Allan Nonymous (talk) 22:12, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

This article is way too long. I would suggest to cut all the "views and works" stuff into a daughter article, and just put a summary in the main article - which seems largely innocuous. We can then clean up the daughter article, with a lot of deletion. Wdford (talk) 13:11, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

@Wdford: I have no stake in this (I'm in the same boat as Simonm223, I don't want to get involved) but here's the section sizes, if it helps. Views takes up 40.24% of the article, so I agree that a split to a Views of Jordan Peterson article (cf. Views of Richard Dawkins, Views of Kanye West, Views of Elon Musk) is probably warranted. — Kodiak Blackjack (talk) • (contribs) 19:46, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

LOL I didn't take my own advice and ended up vaguely involved at Jorpy's page. Simonm223 (talk) 20:15, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

This has now led to a dispute over whether the presentation of Peterson's areas of academic focus and overall impact are appropriately structured in a way that is normal for academic bibliography or whether it's violating WP:NPOV by presenting him as having a much broader area of focus and far more overall academic impact than he really does. The page is now fully edit protected. Simonm223 (talk) 19:11, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Vegepet

A dietary supplement for vegan pets. Concerns have been raised that the article contains fringe content, WP:OR and lacks independent sourcing. Psychologist Guy (talk) 16:44, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

This is one very poorly written article. I removed a search query being used as a source, but it probably needs WP:TNT 174.171.79.146 (talk) 03:58, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I was disappointed to discover that "vegepet" wasn't a term for a houseplant kept by someone who doesn't want to oppress animals by keeping them as pets. Brunton (talk) 19:07, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

@Brunton, sounds like a brilliant business opportunity! It could be the 21st century's pet rock. Schazjmd (talk) 19:17, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Ghosts of the American Civil War and Lincoln's ghost

Both Ghosts of the American Civil War and Lincoln's ghost describe ghosts and entirely rely on primary and questionable sources. Both articles focus on supposed "sightings" and largely do not discuss anything else. ―Susmuffin ^Talk 18:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I imagine that this stuff was once in the main articles but got tossed out to become content forks. The blatantly credulous stuff is mostly sourced to 'ghost expert' sources, but there are a few travel and local sources that appropriately treat the topic as folklore. A quick fix would be to rename the articles American Civil War ghost stories and Abraham Lincoln ghost stories, and then merge Lincoln into the first. Note that both article creators have since been blocked, one for continual copyright violations, so there may be copyvios lurking. - LuckyLouie (talk) 19:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Notifying_Wikiprojects_and_WP:CANVASS

For the interested. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:25, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

It's the UFO crowd again

If interested the latest from these peeps is now out. I only watched the first few minutes and they have a stick and aren't letting it go. Possibly they will be making more trouble for the editors they feel are targeting the UFO/UAP disclosure they so want to happen. The interviewee for this specific show says he has a list of editors and their real life names and professions and apparently is planning on exposing them. Oh and @LuckyLouie is Mick West, of course he is. I went on this YouTube channel last month and tried to explain and have a discussion with them, it was a 3-hour interview and they removed over an hour of content. I would say it was a waste of my time, except I'm always interested in trying to help people understand, plus it was fascinating to get a peek into their mindset. You can find it on their channel if you are interested along with their other nonsense about how Wikipedia works, when it is obvious they have no clue how it works. I only raise this issue as of course I know we are attacked all the time, but this seems to be at least for a few people to be escalating. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W1lohseihc]. Sgerbic (talk) 14:55, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Yup, they're irrational. They think that Satan + Illuminati are covering up the truth about UFOs, in order to let the Reptilians rule unabashed. E.g. there was a guy who killed his own two children because he thought they have "serpent blood". tgeorgescu (talk) 15:15, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Some are very irrational. But that does not mean that they can be disruptive here on Wikipedia AND cause headaches with their "outing" of editors real life names vs user names. Plus the nonsense when they get it completely wrong like Louie and West. Sgerbic (talk) 15:22, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

So we now have "true" Guerrilla Skeptics going after Guerrilla Skeptics of Wikipedia... Ladies and gentleman, Siphonaptera (poem). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I love it when one of them hits the nail on the head and states "...I notice patterns in everything..." which is the problem, e.g. apophenia, with many fringe theories. Paul H. (talk) 17:08, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Early history of Palestine making fringe claims

[24] The early history section here makes some religious claims in wikivoice. 107.116.165.24 (talk) 22:44, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree, this is a religious account of the history which is not supported by archaeology. It's fine to mention the traditional account but we shouldn't say it's true, especially not over the archaeological account. Loki (talk) 01:41, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

That section was written by one editor.[25], User:Kharbaan Ghaltaan. Out of about 26 sources I see just one academic one. The rest run from poor to dreadful, eg [26] Can anyone read this one?[27] It loads and then I get a blank screen. Lots of use of encyclopedias, Britannica etc.

Just found this[28] that the editor also wrote, in fact they have written 53% of the article editing it 90 times.. A lot of the article is no longer about the State of Palestine but the history of the area and should be removed. Any objections? Doug Weller talk 08:09, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Nope, go ahead. Loki (talk) 17:57, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

The Lightning Process

I don't edit fringe medical topics often but recent edits, particularly about a BBC Radio 4 piece ([29]), seem very egregious and would appreciate somebody with more experience of this sort of thing to have a look. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 15:58, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Yikes, there was some WP:PROFRINGE twisting there. I've poked it a bit. Bon courage (talk) 16:25, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Nano-ayurvedic medicine, again

• Nano-ayurvedic medicine (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch
• Previous discussion: Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 99#Nano-ayurvedic medicine

About two months ago, there was an apparent consensus that this is a fringe topic, without sufficient sourcing to keep in mainspace, and it was draftified. An IP editor has been repeatedly attempting to reintroduce it to mainspace without fixing the problems. Based on a talk page comment, I tried to change it from a draft, to a "redirect with history" ([30]), but the IP keeps reverting it back into mainspace.

I'd like to get some more opinions about what to do with this page. If it seems unlikely that the content can be appropriately sourced, perhaps it should either be made into a semi-protected redirect, or be taken to a deletion discussion and WP:SALTed. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:35, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Next, relativistic medicine and galaxy-scale water memory. AFD and SALT. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:42, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Taken by Headbomb to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nano-ayurvedic medicine. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:52, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Its self promo. Various IPs have been adding random Lopus, M references for a long while. Check everything the original author of this article (based on the fringe works of Lopus M) contributed before starting the article. Only adding Lopus, M references. Do a search for articles referencing them, and find one where it wasn't added by an IP or an account dedicated to promoting the works of Lopus, M, i.e.[31] 12.75.41.67 (talk) 23:21, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Alina Chan

Alina Chan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Note that the latest entry into "The New York Times focuses on fringe and ignores the mainstream" seems to be extremely well-represented on this WP:FRINGEBLP. I am not sure how much emphasis we are supposed to be placing on Chan's Lab Leak claims (and some of the ones mentioned are exceedingly misleading and others are demonstrably incorrect). There is no attempt to find WP:SECONDARY sources which identify Chan's ideas as being prominent or worthy of inclusion at Wikipedia. Instead, it is all sourced solely to her OpEd. jps (talk) 16:16, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

In short, is this now becoming a WP:COATrack? jps (talk) 16:17, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Fringe claims from somebody with a book to sell, and little relevant scientific standing (and not even in the same universe at WP:MEDRS sourcing required for pronouncements about biomedicince). WP:FRINGESUBJECTS tells us what to do. Bon courage (talk) 17:03, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Sentient (intelligence analysis system)

• Sentient (intelligence analysis system) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

WP:PRIMARY sources assembled to showcase selected memos and documents discussing details of a classified system used to look for UFOs [32]. I could be mistaken, but unless WP:SECONDARY sources have commented on this, such a lavishly detailed assembly is WP:OR. - LuckyLouie (talk) 21:52, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

I just deleted the last section from the Sentient article. All sources were primary, and the whole thing was focused on a redacted document that was nearly incomprehensible, severely WP:UNDUE even if accurate. And we just shouldn't be circulating vague bits of intelligence noise like this, it's jet fuel for the engines of conspiracism. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 02:57, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Agree. The more I look at these additions the more I see classic WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. - LuckyLouie (talk) 13:37, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

"Confidence is relatively low...may warrant further investigation..." This is not the kind of content we need anywhere on WP, let alone in a direct quote. Utter garbage, cherry-picked for maximum apophenia. These edits should all be reverted, IMO. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 01:36, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Addition of language excusing fringe material on Lara Logan

On Lara Logan material language was added that looks like trying to soften reporting of fringe material like "Despite some media fuss around the original" and "Fauci's unquestioning support for the experimental vaccine" despite not being in the sources (and also took part of reference name for no reason) 2001:8003:3FB4:CF00:2973:401E:A175:B587 (talk) 02:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Note the removal of the "Anti" in "Anti-Defamation League" at one point. Red flag much? - Sumanuil. _{(talk to me)} 07:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

It's not the "Anti" that was removed, only the "A". Obviously a misclick/typo. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:37, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Ok, the difference viewer may have misled me. Their edits are still not constructive, however. - Sumanuil. _{(talk to me)} 21:48, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Right. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:29, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

TRIZ

Maybe this is the wrong noticeboard, but what is TRIZ? The lead is very promo-y and this article cites lots and lots of self-published stuff. Zanahary (talk) 06:05, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Based on a quick read, I don't think this is a fringe theory...just a very poorly-written article about a quirky/fad engineering-psychology method. Not my field, so I'm probably not the one to improve the article. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 14:36, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

It's a method that gained enough prevalence to keep getting works published about it decades after its inception. By definition full of jargon and difficult to define in a way useful to anyone not already embedded in marketing. There are some sources in Russian. Also see Category:TRIZ and Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject TRIZ Ontology. Reconrabbit 14:54, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello! I'm not normally a contributor but this jumped out at me because my college professor was very heavily involved in this/ the creation of I-TRIZ. It's not fringe as opposed to a framework for rapidly attempting to solve a problem by using past ideas in a modular fashion. From what I'm seeing of the article, it doesn't look great. So please let me know if I can help improve this. 47.42.9.179 (talk) 07:56, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

If you can rewrite, for example, the article lead, so that it is comprehensible, that would be great ꧁Zanahary⁠꧂ 13:09, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Will make an account and do my best. Like I said I typically don't contribute and was only here reading stuff on a whim. But I'm like one of the 5 people who's ever actually worked with this stuff so I figured I'd throw in. 47.42.9.179 (talk) 17:50, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

That would really be helpful. Feel free to ask me via my talk page if you need any help. ꧁Zanahary⁠꧂ 18:11, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Multiple chemical sensitivity

Multiple chemical sensitivity seems to have a lot of issues with in-universe citations and people abusing sourcing standards. I can try to clean it up a bit but it's taking a lot of willpower not to add "See also: ICPMS" ^{[just kidding]} Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 08:59, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Linguistics and the Book of Mormon

Linguistics_and_the_Book_of_Mormon doesn't appear to have any references about the topic of linguistics and the Book of Mormon. I considered removing pieces, but I'm not sure if any of it belongs, and whether the book of mormon is a topic in linguistics at all. Thoughts? 2600:1700:F990:C190:43BD:7A77:E1FF:CC65 (talk) 02:59, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Even when I've contributed in Book of Mormon topics, linguistics and the Book of Mormon is an article I've generally kept a wide berth from because I think the way it's set up draws out apologetics and counter-apologetics that mire the page in WP:OR and back-and-forth. Consider how many citations are either to the Book of Mormon itself (hypothetically fine for verifying quotations, but in too many cases whole paragraphs are supported by it), to texts written by denominational leaders (Studies of the Book of Mormon has a 1985 publication date, but it was written more than half a century earlier, by B. H. Roberts, a member of the Latter-day Saint ecclesiastical hierarchy, as a denominationally commissioned study; there's also a citation to the Journal of Discourses which was a 19th-century anthology of Latter-day Saint sermons), to denominational websites (like strangite.org), to Evangelical 'countercult' apologetics (like Utah Lighthouse Ministry), and to Guns, Germs, and Steel which is not a book that mentions the Book of Mormon at all (and while popular is an outdated source for understanding early modern European–American contact; Diamond gives altogether too much credit to guns and steel and not enough to local alliances and politics). There's even a paragraph that as near as I can tell is subtweeting an intra-denominational disagreement about what the specific miraculous mechanics of Smith's would have been. (The paragraph including the sentence However, as Whitmer was never directly involved in the translation and Harris was involved for only a brief period of time, Mormon apologists consider it unlikely that either of these accounts is as accurate as the accounts of Smith and Cowdery.; casting doubt on Whitmer's recollection of the dictation process is a subtle 'dog whistle' for lay skepticism of the academic consensus that Smith looked at a seer stone—a folk magical practice in early-nineteenth-century New England—for a significant amount of his dictation of the Book of Mormon.)

Speaking as someone who has read interesting and academically valid scholarship about the Book of Mormon in the history of the 19th century, in religious studies, and in literary studies, published by university presses like Princeton and Oxford and in peer-reviewed journals—what's being cited and summarized in the current version of Linguistics and the Book of Mormon isn't that.

whether the book of mormon is a topic in linguistics at all: I'm not really sure. There's certainly academic observations about its language—intertextuality with the King James Bible and the use of nonstandard English in the first edition, for instance—but I don't know whether that rises to being linguistics. There's the matter of hemispheric interpretations of the Book of Mormon, popular in the Latter Day Saint movement well into the twentieth century, not making sense alongside the reality of Native American language diversity. But that's also not so much a linguistic study of the Book of Mormon as much as an observation about how something known through linguistics renders implausible the historicity of the Book of Mormon under hemispheric premises. Personally, the whole trifecta of archaeology and the Book of Mormon, genetics and the Book of Mormon, and linguistics and the Book of Mormon seem to me like unproductive forks that tend to encourage editors to get into the weeds of restating apologetics and counter-apologetics, rather than concisely summarizing academic interpretations. I'm not sure what an improved version of the article would look like. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 09:13, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Wow, The relationship between linguistics and the Book of Mormon is two-fold. This is as bad as those grad-student-y LGBT articles. ꧁Zanahary⁠꧂ 13:14, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

as bad as those grad-student-y LGBT articles: I'm pretty unimpressed with this linguistics and the Book of Mormon article too (see my criticism of it above), but I don't really see what that has to do with making a swipe at either editors who are graduate students or at LGBT studies articles on Wikipedia. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 17:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

It’s just an earnest comparison: this reminds me of the LGBT-topic articles I’ve come across that seem to have been written by people with a background in academic writing and not encyclopedic writing. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 22:35, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

This feels like one of those articles that's probably deserving of an AfD but is so laden with sources and general inertia that it'd never fly, WP:VERIFY be damned. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 19:33, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I've cleaned up the intro a little bit, but there's a lot to unpack there. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 19:41, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

WP:TNT? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:48, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

"With articles, this is the TNT tipping point argument: if the article's content is useless (including all the versions in history) but the title might be useful"

Would it though? Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 19:53, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Wouldn't Linguistics of the Book of Mormon be better? ꧁Zanahary꧂ 22:42, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Linguistic historicity of the Book of Mormon? Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 23:16, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good. Open an RM? ꧁Zanahary꧂ 22:36, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what will be gained from moving the article to a different title when the notability, reliability, or due-ness of the content itself remains under question. Is it a sufficiently vast topic that it warrants a split into a whole article? I'm not sure what's of encyclopedic interest in the realm of linguistics and the Book of Mormon beyond the matter of Native American languages having no connection to the ancient Egyptian the Book of Mormon claims or the ancient Semitic languages its narrative would imply, and of being so diverse they could not have emerged in the short time frame the Book of Mormon would require, and those seem like content that can be (and are) summarized in parent articles. (I'm also not sure "linguistic historicity" as a title will be any less likely to attract apologetics in content and sourcing than the current title.) Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 23:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree, as much as I suggested an alternative title I think the article doesn't warrant being here. We don't have an equivalent one for other major religious texts, and the better place for this is Historicity of the Book of Mormon. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 09:42, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

There probably could be 'equivalent' articles for other major religious texts—A GoogleScholar search makes me think Linguistics and the Bible seems very plausible. But with Linguistics and the Book of Mormon, the same approach inspires less confidence in the topic's notability as an independent article in Wikipedia terms, there being only one genuine hit (the top result, "Historical Linguistics", which is to an interview, albeit journal-published but an interview nonetheless, with an author of a book that had been quite negatively reviewed in the journal's previous edition; the other hits below it are to database pages that simply also link to the same article). Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 10:29, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I still think it just would fall into a subset of historicity, personally, but I could be wrong. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 10:34, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't think linguistic analysis of the Bible is solely limited to the question of the historicity of its contents; from quickly scanning some of the GoogleScholar hits it seems to play a role in the history of biblical hermeneutics (part of the reception history of the Bible), in study of its grammar, in translation studies approaches, in philosophical metaphysics, and in more. Such are far afield from historicity questions like 'was David a real king'. Meanwhile, with the Book of Mormon it does seem like what's there linguistically be folded into a parent article like historicity of the Book of Mormon, since I'm not sure what there is beyond the two observations about Indigenous languages, which are primarily made in reference to the question of historicity. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 10:45, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I suspect, but cannot confirm, that this article derives from Richard Packham's([33]) article. [34] Decent enough article as far as internet pubs go, but hardly the basis needed for writing an entire article on Wikipedia, in my opinion. jps (talk) 23:18, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Dinosaur of Ta Prohm

Should this article have a ps contentious topics alert? Doug Weller talk 16:13, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Foundational Black Americans

This was a redirect to Tariq Nasheed but an article has been created by User:‎Fba-warrior, Doug Weller talk 16:57, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Copied mainly from their website, a bit from theatlantic.com.[35]. History.com doesn't seem to be an rs. Off to dinner and watching tv with family. Doug Weller talk 17:01, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I forgot, I blocked a sock who created Foundational Black American. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Foundational Black American. Doug Weller talk 17:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Should categories such as "Ancient seafaring" "Transport in Phoenicia" , be used for non-historical voyages

I don't think these should be used for articles describing events where we have no evidence they ever occurred. For instance Phoenician Ship Expedition‎ and the Genesis flood narrative, Doug Weller talk 09:56, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

In general, I agree, but [36]. Per Necho_II#Phoenician_expedition the Phoenician Ship Expedition‎ seems a bit iffy, reasonable people may disagree. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:01, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

The template is ok for Genesis stuff, but not a “tried to prove something could be done”. Doug Weller talk 12:35, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

User:Revirvlkodlaku has restored the category "Replications of ancient voyages' to Phoenician Ship Expedition although the lead says "The Phoenician Ship Expedition is a re-creation of a 6th-century BCE Phoenician voyage conceived by Philip Beale". The article mentions varied evidence for a voyage and for the second expedition discussed in the article says that the idea that the Canaanites voyaged to America was the inspiration for that voyage. It's all speculations and not recreation of a real voyage. Doug Weller talk 14:49, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

That no specific voyage is being recreated seems a trivial point & the category name should probably be changed from "replications". I wish people would LINK THINGS! I think Category:Replications of ancient voyages is a useful category, but several are either not exactly "replications" or the voyages are not "ancient" (Mayflower II), so a rename would probably be good. Johnbod (talk) 15:26, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

@Johnbod Or a new category for those that aren’t a good fit. Doug Weller talk 18:13, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Experimental archaeology is a legitimate field of study, and perhaps a new subcategory with an appropriate name ('Experimental marine archaeology' ?) such voyages could legitimately be included there. There are dozens more examples; see for example, Olympias (trireme), or the Hōkūleʻa. Mathglot (talk) 19:48, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, good idea. Most of Category:Replications of ancient voyages are Sth America-Polynesia, a la Kon-Tiki, and one might segregate that group. Johnbod (talk) 21:27, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Plenty of source material available for a new article on Experimental marine archaeology, and a category to match. Mathglot (talk) 23:42, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Just a quick note as I'm not regularly editing at this time, I think Johnbod has hit on an important point here. However this is resolved, we, it needs to treat stuff reasonably equally. If editors are rejecting the Phoenician Ship Expedition‎ because it's largely someone's fantasy with limited supporting evidence, they need to be rejecting Kon-Tiki expedition which as far as I know, and supported by the article was even at the time was considered based on highly questionable claims, and nowadays completely rejected; the idea that the Pacific Islands were populated by South Americans accidentally drifting to the Pacific Islands is well accepted as nonsense, often racist nonsense. (I don't know enough to say if it's accepted as something that never happened instead of perhaps it could have happened once or twice, who knows but not a significant factor in how these places were inhabited.) In fact, from what I can tell, the first Phoenician Ship Expedition seems to be slightly more accepted as something that could have happened than the South America to Polynesia stuff. (The Americas Phoenician expedition does seem to be just nonsense.) If we want to segregate into fringe vs non fringe, stuff like Hōkūleʻa is what needs to take priority. Note though that Hōkūleʻa also illustrates another important point. Just because a replication isn't of a specific voyage doesn't mean it's nonsense. AFAIK, we're not likely to ever be able to know specific voyages of that sort, but we're fairly sure they did happen and there's a fair chance this isn't going to change. Nil Einne (talk) 13:06, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Nations and IQ

Nations and IQ (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I'm currently in a content dispute with an IP over this article which falls under the race and intelligence topic area. For the time being, I'd like to know whether others agree with this editor's revert here. Generalrelative (talk) 04:31, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I would be okay with the article including a statement like that in the lead, but there are too many issues with that particular source. Aside from the fact that it was not summarized accurately, it also is too old. It's from 2001, so it predates all of Lynn and Vanhanen's books, the first of which was published in 2002. The negative reception of those books, and the subsequent research by Wicherts, Rindermann and Becker that sought to improve on Lynn and Vanhanen's methods, are the main thing that caused national IQs to become an area of study. Aside from some very early papers, national IQs have only been an area of study for 22 years, so a broad statement about validity of this field should have a source from less than 22 years ago. 2A02:FE1:7191:F500:1D68:AEEA:EBA5:D751 (talk) 04:55, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Let's deal with these objections in turn. Which part of the summary do you think was inaccurate? Generalrelative (talk) 05:02, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

The inaccurate part of your summary was the statement, "comparisons which extend beyond the industrialized West are essentially meaningless." Sternberg's criticism is narrower than that. He says, "despite the magnitude of the predictive power of IQ apparent from the findings presented later, this index might extend itself meaningfully only throughout its own kingdom--that is, only through selected segments of the Western part of the industrialized world." This statement is referring specifically to IQ's predictive validity, and he also includes the word "might" to indicate that this is not a definite conclusion. Later, he discusses how the concept of practical intelligence varies between cultures, and does not always align with the type of intelligence that IQ tests measure. He concludes this discussion with the statement, "scores from tests used in cultures or subcultures other than those for which the tests were specifically created are suspect, and probably of doubtful validity in many if not most cases." Again, this is a more nuanced criticism than stating that comparisons beyond the industrialized West are meaningless. However, I also think my concern about this source's age is the more significant problem. 2A02:FE1:7191:F500:1D68:AEEA:EBA5:D751 (talk) 05:15, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I suppose we can let others decide whether probably of doubtful validity in many if not most cases is adequately summarized by essentially meaningless. In my view the former doesn't contain any more nuance than the latter, just more beating around the bush.

As to the source's age, I agree that more recent critiques should be included, e.g. a summary of the relevant language from the 2020 statement by the European Human Behavior and Evolution Association, that there is a fundamental problem in trying to use Western IQ tests across diverse cultural settings. But the 2001 source, which says the same thing, has the virtue of having been co-authored by two extremely prominent subject-matter experts, Robert Sternberg and Elena Grigorenko. Their perspective deserves to be presented in the lead, alongside the likes of Lynn and Vanhanen. Generalrelative (talk) 05:42, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

It may be older than the books, but isn't this article about the same thing? It's not surprising to me that Lynn and Vanhanen's books were debunked before they were written, they are race science after all. The article should not give them a special place in the discussion just because they popularized this pseudoscientific concept. HansVonStuttgart (talk) 08:06, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I would agree, I think Sternberg is not an important intelligence researcher. His tri-archic theory, which is his main contribution, is not mainstream nor recognized by any test publishers as theoretically important. Publius Obsequium (talk) 17:33, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

For the sake of clarity, here is the statement from the article body:

In a 2001 review article, Robert J. Sternberg, Elena Grigorenko, and Donald Bundy argued that IQ comparisons between rich and poor nations can be "dangerously misleading", and that IQ comparisons between nations may be meaningfully applied "only through selected segments of the Western part of the industrialized world." They argue that "scores from tests used in cultures or subcultures other than those for which the tests were specifically created are suspect, and probably of doubtful validity in many if not most cases."

And here is the disputed summary of this material in the lead:

Other psychologists such as Robert J. Sternberg and Elena Grigorenko have cautioned that IQ comparisons between rich and poor nations can be "dangerously misleading" and that comparisons which extend beyond the industrialized West are essentially meaningless.

Generalrelative (talk) 05:53, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

The disputed material seems like a decent partial summary of §Objections to national comparisons of IQ. That summary should be restored and expanded, since the point of the lead is to summarize the body. §Potential causes of national differences also needs more mention in the lead. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:59, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: Do you also think Generalrelative's proposed wording is truer to the source than the wording I suggested? [37] Here is the wording I tried to include:

Other psychologists such as Robert J. Sternberg and Elena Grigorenko have cautioned that IQ comparisons between rich and poor nations can be "dangerously misleading" and that IQ's predictive power might extend "only through selected segments of the Western part of the industrialized world."

My suggested version uses Sternberg's exact wording, but Generalrelative insisted on changing it to say "essentially meaningless."

Also, I should mention that although the phrase "virtually meaningless" appears in the "Objections to national comparisons of IQ" section, this wording is based on a misrepresented source. As I said in this edit summary, when Williams uses the phrase "virtually meaningless" she is referring specifically to Lynn and Vanhanen's methods, not to international IQ comparisons in general. The Williams source in fact suggests that international IQ comparisons could be meaningful if they avoided Lynn and Vanhanen's errors. When you say that the lead should summarize the body, be aware that the phrase "essentially meaningless" is summarizing a part of the body that's based on a misrepresented source in this case. 2A02:FE1:7191:F500:1D68:AEEA:EBA5:D751 (talk) 15:21, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Note that the phrase "essentially meaningless" in my edit is also meant to summarize the passage from Sternberg et al. which you helpfully quoted above:

despite the magnitude of the predictive power of IQ apparent from the findings presented later, this index might extend itself meaningfully only throughout its own kingdom –– that is, only through selected segments of the Western part of the industrialized world.

It's also of course meant to summarize the passage from later in the article, that

scores from tests used in cultures or subcultures other than those for which the tests were specifically created are suspect, and probably of doubtful validity in many if not most cases.

Another phrase like "of dubious validity" wouldn't be terrible, but I think "essentially meaningless" is better writing, and gives the reader a clearer sense of what's being argued here.

It is true, however, that the direct quote virtually meaningless from Williams and Barnett refers narrowly to Lynn and Vanhanen's dataset. Generalrelative (talk) 19:21, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

"Essentially meaningless" from that text seems like a stretch. I prefer the directly quoted "meaningful only…" formulation. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 00:36, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

It seems to me that "essentially meaningless" is very close to the wording in the sources, and conveys the same meaning. We're supposed to be paraphrasing, which does not mean using the exact same wording as the sources. NightHeron (talk) 01:47, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree that "essentially meaningless" is a good paraphrase. --bonadea contributions talk 13:30, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

i don't see a problem with 'essentially meaningless' as a summary of the source—blindlynx 19:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Hypnotherapy

Various fringe and unreliable content that fails WP:MEDRS has been added to the Hypnotherapy article in the "Uses" section. I have trimmed some of it down but there is still work to do here. Psychologist Guy (talk) 00:16, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

In what way does it fail? Be specific Publius Obsequium (talk) 00:43, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

You are adding primary sources, integrative medicine pseudoscience and fringe journals that are not med indexed. Before you add a source please check out the quality of the journal and if there is any consistent evidence for such content. We are not going to cite fringe journals or claims with weak evidence. Your editing is problematic and is the reason why pretty much every edit you have made has been reverted by other editors. I suggest reading WP:Fringe and WP:MEDRS. You also made bad edits on Joseph of Cupertino and many other articles pushing all kinds of fringe claims. It's tiring for experienced users having to clean up your bad editing that has spilled out on many articles. Psychologist Guy (talk) 01:03, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Flynn effect

Flynn effect (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

More race and intelligence shenanigans here. Brand-new account and IP tag-teaming to include decidedly WP:PROFRINGE content sourced to J. Philippe Rushton and Arthur Jensen: [38][39][40]. Experienced editors are invited to take a look. Generalrelative (talk) 21:49, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

The basis for my revert was not only about the content that's been removed in the past ten days. When I said in my edit summary that Generalrelative's edits are opposed by consensus, I also was referring to others' views about all the various sources about the Flynn effect that Generalrelative has removed as "fringe", including these, these, these this, this, and the most recent example. It's about ten sources total, and most of these sources don't discuss race. Some of the removed sources, such as this one [41] don't seem remotely controversial.

Including the older examples, these removals have been opposed by at least five different people, and Generalrelative is the only person removing these sources. The Flynn effect is one of the topics where his mass removals have received media attention, and people commenting outside of Wikipedia don't regard the removals as reasonable either. Wikipedia is being mocked for its rejection of these sources. Is the view of the community that these removals were appropriate, and all ten of the sources can't be used?

Also, ElPollosi and Publius Obsequium should be notified of the discussion, as they are the most recent editors to challenge these removals. 2A02:FE1:7191:F500:1D68:AEEA:EBA5:D751 (talk) 22:45, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

ElPollosi has been blocked as a sock-puppet and vandal [42]. They were also using the sock Dimmlerthegreat [43] and 2 others. Psychologist Guy (talk) 23:41, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Publius Obsequium should be reported at WP:ANI. They have caused major issues on many WP:Fringe related articles going back a month or so. The user doesn't listen to advice and their edits take time to clean-up and revert. This isn't just happening on one or two articles, it's a pattern of behaviour on about 9 or 10 articles. The user doesn't use article talk-pages and keeps blanking their own talk-page in mid conversation. Psychologist Guy (talk) 23:51, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

This is blatantly false and quite the smear. In fact I have followed all advice given. Publius Obsequium (talk) 00:31, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Publius Obsequium was deleting RS critique of the antisemitic ‘culture of critique’ books years ago. Zenomonoz (talk) 00:31, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

This was 7 years ago but if I recall my reasoning correctly, I think it was an unfair criticism, as whatever you may think of Mac Donald, he is obviously an evolutionary psychologist. Publius Obsequium (talk) 00:46, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Looking back at my edit I see I have the explanation that this was due to group selection not being discredited. Not sure why this is at all relevant, except that Zeno wants to smear me Publius Obsequium (talk) 01:00, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

What gets called “fringe” Seems quite subjective, also. It seems to be whatever you personally disagree with Publius Obsequium (talk) 00:32, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Nobody is trying to smear you. Unfortunately your behaviour and editing is disruptive, it is best to discuss this at ANI [44] Psychologist Guy (talk) 02:39, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Trofim Lysenko

• Trofim Lysenko (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

[45] "agronomist and scientist" - does that make sense? --Hob Gadling (talk) 08:50, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

How about this alternative I created by moving around already existing references to arguably more appropriate places:

Trofim Denisovich Lysenko (Russian: Трофи́м Дени́сович Лысе́нко; Ukrainian: Трохи́м Дени́сович Лисе́нко, romanized: Trokhym Denysovych Lysenko, IPA: [troˈxɪm deˈnɪsowɪtʃ lɪˈsɛnko]; 29 September [O.S. 17 September] 1898 – 20 November 1976) was a key figure in the Soviet science establishment, commonly described as "[a]n ill-educated agronomist with huge ambitions, [...] [who] failed to become a real scientist, but greatly succeeded in exposing of the “bourgeois enemies of the people.” He was a strong, ideologically motivated proponent of Lamarckism, and rejected Mendelian genetics such as Darwinism overall in favour of his own idiosyncratic, pseudoscientific ideas later termed Lysenkoism (this being a set of ideas now widely held to have been responsible for much of the Holodomor).

Biohistorian15 (talk) 08:25, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Conquest of Sylhet

I wanted you to take a look at this article, which I believe is problematic in many way as it romanticises a legendary folklore as history. As TrangaBellam (talk · contribs) is aware, unfortunately a lot of India-related articles on Wikipedia are a victim of this. I would like to see this being dealt with, as majority of the information is not from reliable sources at all. It seems to be a way of presenting legends in the guise of a reliable historical article, and this is very clear to see for those who are familiar with the romanticisation of historical conflicts in India. Muydivertido (talk) 14:39, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Service: Conquest of Sylhet (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

New stuff goes to the bottom, BTW. --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:48, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not following what the issue is here, what in particular do you think is "fringe"? Lostsandwich (talk) 09:08, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Macrobiotics

A new user has just created this article Macrobiotics and is removing sourced content from Macrobiotic diet. Psychologist Guy (talk) 12:54, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

See related discussion [46] Psychologist Guy (talk) 13:00, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

• Did a WP:BLAR since the macrobiotic diet article is the same topic. (Add: but TruthIan  – Yeah, I know – is repeatedly reverting. Needs attention from NPOV-aware editors.) Bon courage (talk) 14:44, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Galileo affair

• Galileo affair (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Motion is relative, and it was just about Galileo's opinions, so the Church was right. See also Conservapedia. --Hob Gadling (talk) 08:04, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Why Galileo was condemned is a tricky story, probably it was because of politics rather than science or religious dogma. And, yup, while he boldly posited a hypothesis which later turned out to be true, it does not mean that he offered enough evidence, according to the scholarly customs of his age. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:48, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Genealogy of Jesus

This is about Talk:Genealogy of Jesus#Set something straight. Why does it pertain to WP:FTN? Because the guru of a WP:FRINGE cult should not be WP:CITED inside the article about a mainstream idea. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:18, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Steiner’s Christology was, however, quite heterodox, and hardly compatible with official church doctrine.²² Among the eccentricities of Steiner’s esoteric Christianity was the notion of two different Jesuses being involved in the incarnation process – the “Nathanic” and “Solomonic” Jesus – born to separate pairs of parents that were both named Mary and Joseph, and belonging to two different lines of descent from David.²³ The association of Christ with the “light-bringer” Lucifer was undoubtedly another controversial point, accompanied by a reinvention of Satan in terms of the Zoroastrian divine antagonist, Ahriman. Breaking with the official dogma of existing churches did not matter, however, for in the early 1920s Steiner’s movement established its own church, the “Christian Society” (Christengemeinschaft), with new sacraments, new liturgies, and new ecclesiastical arrangements.²⁴

— Asprem, PhD thesis, p. 507

This is the quote from Asprem. Source: [47]. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:41, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

See also Johnson, Marshall D. (2002). The Purpose of the Biblical Genealogies: With Special Reference to the Setting of the Genealogies of Jesus. Wipf & Stock Publishers. p. 144. ISBN 978-1-57910-274-6. Retrieved 26 June 2024. The text is available at Google Books.

First published as Johnson, Marshall D. (1969). Black, Matthew (ed.). The Purpose of the Biblical Genealogies with Special Reference to the Setting of the Genealogies of Jesus. London: Cambridge University Press. p. 144. ISBN 978-0-521-07317-2. tgeorgescu (talk) 13:03, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

It is clear to me that both WP:RS explicitly deride Steiner's claim of the two Jesus kids. tgeorgescu (talk) 14:14, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Historicity of the Book of Mormon

I've gotten into a bit of a disagreement about whether Mormon apologetics are WP:DUE in this article, and would appreciate additional eyes to let me know if I'm out of line. 68.170.73.15 (talk) 19:55, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Mormon aplogetics should be mentioned, but never as WP:THETRUTH. tgeorgescu (talk) 19:28, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

I've just stumbled upon Life of Joseph Smith from 1827 to 1830. The article repeatedly uses wikivoice to say Smith was actively transcribing from plates, which isn't in agreement with mainstream scholarship about languages, angels, etc. If I remove all of the obviously fringe content, I'm afraid there won't be much left. 68.170.73.15 (talk) 01:36, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Netflix’s Ancient Apocalypse scraps US filming plans after outcry from Native American Groups

See [48] Doug Weller talk 13:05, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Helmuth Nyborg

This IP [49] that has a history of making POV edits on race and intelligence articles is reverting well sourced content on the Helmuth Nyborg article sourced to Danish news sources. Nyborg ‎is a well known far-right activist who attends neo-nazi and white nationalist events and meetings. For example, Nyborg has attended the Scandza Forum (Guide to Kulchur) as Hope Not Hate have noted [50]. For background, there is some information about the Scandza Forum here with other sources. 51.6.193.169 (talk) 09:29, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

For further background, the source I added is this source [51]. It was written in Danish but it can easily be translated. It definitely passes WP:RS. 51.6.193.169 (talk) 09:32, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree and have followed up at Talk:Helmuth_Nyborg#Far-right. – Joe (talk) 10:26, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Also see Curtis Dunkel 51.6.193.169 (talk) 18:32, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Rasashastra

Could do with some eyes, perhaps. Recent edits seem to have added undue fringe material about "purification" of mercury to the Toxicity section. Brunton (talk) 19:40, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Some ufo edits

Could someone please check this edit[52] which uses the fringe journal Journal of Scientific Exploration as well as the edits on Roswell by the same editor, User:Mcorrlo [53]. Also see their talk page for warnings about using the minor edit tick box and other problems. Doug Weller talk 10:28, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Rajiv Dixit

• Rajiv Dixit (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Efforts are being made for a long time now to whitewash this article about a crank mainly known for spreading disinformation and unscientific health-related claims. Take a look at the talk page discussion too.[54] Thanks Orientls (talk) 08:13, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Erie Stone

• Erie Stone (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Does this need WP:MEDRS sources? --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:45, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I would say no, this is a historical article. Also it would be hard to find MEDRS sources about an unknown substance. HansVonStuttgart (talk) 11:34, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Only if it ventures biomedical/health claims. I have to wonder though WTF the category "traditional knowledge" is, that this article belongs to! Bon courage (talk) 12:52, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Traditional knowledge. --Animalparty! (talk) 18:54, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure there's much danger from "There's a substance, we're not sure what, that Native Americans used in traditional medicine." It's just not imitable, unlike, say, black salve. If someone wants to claim that a specific substance that might be Erie stone might have specific properties, then we have something we may need to deal with. Compare and contrast the much more discussed and robust Silphium.

Basically, I think MEDRS kind of requires a risk that someone will take the article as something they should try. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.9% of all FPs.} 08:42, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

National Post on climate change at RSN

Something that may be of interest to this noticeboard is the topic of the reliability of Canada's National Post on the subject of climate change. It came to my attention that in a recent journal analysis of the publication it came out worse even than the likes of the Daily Mail on the topic, with ~30% of its output assessed as wayward of the scientific consensus on the subject. See this thread for more details on the potentially relevant issue. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:26, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Evolution of human intelligence

Editors more familiar with the subject might want to evaluate Evolution of human intelligence#Social exchange theory. Currently [55] it includes mention of one of Satoshi Kanazawa theories followed by how others have found no evidence to support it. (Something similar but in more detail is mentioned at G factor (psychometrics)#Other correlates where it seems to much more belong.) There is other R&I stuff which frankly seems out of place to me. Nil Einne (talk) 09:45, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Kanazawa is a red flag for sure. That section does a very poor job of explaining 'social exchange theory'. It also cites economist Thomas Sowell for claims that are (being extremely generous) way, way too simplistic. This should use reliable WP:IS to summarize instead of dancing around primary sources of wildly varying quality. Grayfell (talk) 08:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Expect more new editors coming to support Hancock after a recent tweet

Following the post of a rather odd video by someone titled "Archaeologist John Hoopes Corrupts Wikipedia" Graham Hancock tweeted the video to his almost 500,000 followers saying "University of Kansas Professor John Hoopes contributes ZERO to science in his own work but spends much time pouring scorn on the work of others. By weaponising his editor role at Wikipedia to push his own agenda he brings archaeology into disrepute:" This may involve a number of articles. I've already seen one on Hancock's talk page. Note that Hoopes is an editor here. Doug Weller talk 09:02, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Which articles might this affect? ꧁Zanahary꧂ 00:59, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Feldenkrais method at RSN

Watchers of this board are no doubt familiar with the article on the Feldenkrais Method, which has been discussed here several times. There has been some recent activity at that article, which has given rise to a discussion at the reliable sources notice board. You can find that discussion at WP:RSN#Inclusion of medical evidence review at Feldenkrais Method. MrOllie (talk) 21:38, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Now WP:RSN#Inclusion of Kinesiology Review at Feldenkrais Method. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:18, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Decided to rewrite the lede myself a bit. Kept it short and punchy, we'll see how this goes. Allan Nonymous (talk) 19:04, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Abd-ru-shin

This is about [56]. Please chime in. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:19, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

List of common misconceptions

Please see Talk:List of common misconceptions#Split proposal. Thank you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:35, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Could someone look at these changes for Phoenix Lights please

[57] I don't think they are right but I'd like another opinion, and am trying to deal with a complicated CU right now. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 08:50, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Just took a look -- the flares are absolutely discussed in the cited source. Removed the newly added tags. Feoffer (talk) 09:08, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

intifada

Not a WP:FRINGE matter, discuss it on the relevant article Talk page(s).

I hope this message finds you well. I am writing to bring to your attention a matter of concern regarding the terminology used in an Arabic article related to the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising here in wikipedia. Recently, I a Wikipedia editor made an edit eich says the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising is refrenced as "intifada" in an Arabic. However, historically, the event has been described in Arabic as "tamrrod." For instance, in an article from Yad Vashem, the event is referred to as "تمرّد (tamrrod)," where it is stated that "أصبح تمرّد غيتو وارسو رمزا لمقاومة اليهود للنازيين," translating to "The Warsaw Ghetto Rebellion became a symbol of Jewish resistance to the Nazis." https://www.yadvashem.org/ar/holocaust/about/third-stage-the-final-solution/warsaw-ghetto-fate.html The reason for my inquiry stems from the concern that this terminology choice may lead to misinterpretations or politically charged comparisons. I recently encountered an individual who used this article to draw parallels between the suffering of Jews during the Holocaust and the Palestinian experience under occupation. This comparison, as articulated by British novelist Howard Jacobson, can be seen as a distortion of historical events and a form of moral manipulation. I would appreciate it if you could provide insight into the decision to hide the political context behind calling that event "انتفاضة" (intifada) instead of "تمرد" (tamrrod) in the article regarding the word intifada. Thank you for your attention to this matter. I look forward to hearing from you soon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.66.58.30 (talk) 15:25, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Jinn: RfC: Proposed additions of text 1

Jinn (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

User inputs and comments are requested at:

• Talk:Jinn#RfC: Proposed additions of text 1.

Bookku (talk) 14:26, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Jordan Peterson

• Jordan Peterson (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

A guy who denies that there is such a thing as climate, and still there are users who think he is not a climate denier. --Hob Gadling (talk) 18:49, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Three users all arguing that a known far-right personality is a centrist? Looks more like a matter for AE. 208.87.236.180 (talk) 19:42, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Dosha

There's edit warring at Dosha. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:28, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

The wording of the first sentence does not seem to be as concerning as the entire Principles section, based on a book that "reveals to us the secret powers of the body, breath, senses, mind and chakras". Reconrabbit 16:46, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to describing what that pseudoscience entails—we just do not pass it for valid. tgeorgescu (talk) 05:26, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Bringing attention to Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence_(3rd_nomination)

Apparently its gone through 3 (or maybe 6... or maybe 9 depending on how you count it) AfDs.

Current deletion discussion is favoring deleting it altogether, but it keeps getting relisted. Would like more eyes on this. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:12, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Jewish deicide

• Jewish deicide (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Described in the lede as a "notion". The whole lede has a "some-say-this-some-say-that" tenor. "Maybe they are all god-killers and we should slaughter them, or maybe not. Who knows? Let the reader decide" seems to be the motto.

Jewish deicide is pretty clearly an antisemitic canard. Are there any non-Jewish sources for that? It seems that "Jewish advocacy sources" have a conflict of interest on the question of whether they should be all slaughtered or not, so they cannot be used. --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:06, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I can't see anything there about anyone slaughtering anyone. Can you point it out? Zero^talk 05:32, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

The accusation that the Jews were Christ-killers fed Christian antisemitism[5] and spurred on acts of violence, directly after the "some-say-this-some-say-that" first paragraph. --Hob Gadling (talk)

Afterthought: I hope you will not stop reading after the word "violence". --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:29, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

That paragraph is a true statement; why are you objecting to it? Neither the first paragraph, nor the lead as a whole, has the nature you claim. It is a fact that over history some people believed that rubbish and some didn't. If we don't report that, we aren't doing our job. Zero^talk 06:52, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I've made some edits which I hope will address these issues, including adding what I believe will be a less contentious source. Generalrelative (talk) 06:47, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Why raise this beef here? Jewish deicide was not, for over a thousand years, a fringe idea. It lay at the (dead)heart of a religious worldview. It died out in Western states (though not in Eastern Europe), and for centuries their Christian populations probably never heard much about it, and only then did it become what one could call a 'fringe' idea. One cannot tinker with historical articles thinking that there is only one thing worth keeping a sharp eye out for, traditional Christian enmity for Jews, and calling everything relevant to that trend, an antisemitic canard. Linguistically, a 'canard' is 'a false or unfounded report or story'. Both St. Augustine and the greatest Jewish medieval philosopher Maimonides subscribed to the belief that Jesus was killed by Jews, and they founded their belief on an interpretation of (a) ancient documents which lent support for the notion. Of course, 'Jews' did not kill Jesus anymore than 'Americans' committed genocide in Cambodia or 'Russians' committed the Holodomor. A belief, however stupid or inane or false, often has its roots in reports or misreports, which supply the foundational 'evidence'. One despairs when encyclopedic articles are tweaked by a browsing which itself appears to draw on a general principle or idea that ignores the complexities of history, and which assumes generic clichés and tired boilerplate keywords (which ring an emotional bell) can somehow serve an explanatory function that allows us to dispense with the hard yakka of actually examining the weight of scholarship to ensure we get things nuanced to capture, as here, a transition from infra-Jewish polemics (all those non-Romans present at the crucifixion, Christ included, were Jews, (b) those who wrote the gospels did so within a Jewish cultural milieu and (c) the gentilization of what was a Jewish reform movement and competitiveness with traditional Jewish communities, transformed these polemics over time into an accusation of Jewish (not 'Judean' as earlier) responsibility for Jesus's death. Maimonides, as said, endorsed this as what he, like Christian theologians for a millenia and a half, as a fact, which it wasn't. But this is a long way from modern dumbed-down dismissals of a lethally powerful idea as an antisemitic canard from the very outset.Nishidani (talk) 08:25, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I am inclined to agree with Nishidani. It's a theological viewpoint (i.e not an objective factual statement, and thus not a "canard") that had wide currency in Christian thought for over a millennium. The fact that it is widely viewed as antisemitic can be discussed in the lead without being heavy-handed in the opening sentence. Hemiauchenia (talk) 08:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Jewish deicide was not, for over a thousand years, a fringe idea. Neither was astrology. Now both are fringe. If you want to turn this into one of those boring "this should not have been posted here!" discussions that lead nowhere, I'm out. --Hob Gadling (talk) 04:13, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Renee Dufault

Someone knowledgeable with medical research, mercury and autism care to review Renee Dufault? Aside from some questionable promotional edits, there's some fringe stuff being pushed here. Ravensfire (talk) 18:11, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Baishideng Publishing Group, publisher of the immediately suspicious World Journal of Psychiatry (cited twice in the article), is on Beall's list. Square One Publishers, who published Dufault's book Unsafe at Any Meal, also published a book called Dressed to Kill: The Link Between Breast Cancer and Bras. There are so many red-flag sources in this article I don't even know where to begin. I'm busy with other things at the moment but someone really should take a hatchet to any section of this article sourced to these or other suspicious sources. I'll do what I can, when I can. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 00:24, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Looking at the article history, there seems to have been quite a bit of input from accounts now blocked for sockpuppetry or promotional editing. Brunton (talk) 07:17, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I slapped a bunch of unreliable source tags on it. Anti-vaccine blogs should not be used to support claims of a diet that prevents autism. Reconrabbit 19:48, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Related to this, Nutritional epigenetics. Lots of bold claims and marketing-esque language. The longer I look at this the worse it gets. Reconrabbit 20:06, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Presenting the POV of Orthodox Jews as unvarnished truth

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This is about [58]. Please chime in. I don't think they edit in bad faith, but they have absolutely no idea what Wikipedia is about.

Are they kidding me that my edits aren't the view of Judaism? Just count how many rabbis I have WP:CITED at [59].

But: they are not the rabbis from this editor's sect. To be sure, my edits are not the POV of their sect of Judaism. tgeorgescu (talk) 15:52, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I gotta say, your edit is full of typos and awkward phrasings, and also many of the sources seem kind of irrelevant to the topic at hand. What the Bible says and what Judaism says are two different things. Judaism is a living religion that did not stop evolving several thousand years ago when the Tanakh was written.

If you want a broader view than just Orthodox Judaism, you need to cite modern Reform and Conservative Jews, not a millenia old book that is famously open to interpretation. Loki (talk) 16:00, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

@LokiTheLiar: That nothing has changed for more than 800 years isn't my claim; it is the claim of my opponent. And, yup, I think I have WP:CITED several Reform of Conservative rabbis. If you read the quotes, they speak about the Bible, but they also speak about Rabbinic Judaism, i.e. post-Bible Jewish religious authorities. tgeorgescu (talk) 16:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I went in and fixed it so you can see what I mean: [60] Loki (talk) 16:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

@LokiTheLiar: Much better, but Orthodox Judaism believes that the Bible Outlaws premarital sex (Deuteronomy 23:18)(Maimonides, Hilkhot Ishut, 1:4 sorry, I only found a hebrew edition Maimonides...) It's true that it is not as explicit as most other forbidden relationships.

The part about lesbians was almost accurate; it is only an outcome of the commandment "After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do" (Leviticus 18:3)(Maimonides, Hilkhot Issurei Biah, 21:8). ZucherBundlech (talk) 16:46, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I've always found that one a very impressive leap in reasoning. What about human pyramids? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:55, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

>:)

Good point...

I'm sure you realize Judaism has a little deeper meaning than that.

I will do a little bit of research, and would be happy to notify you of my findings. ZucherBundlech (talk) 11:03, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@ZucherBundlech Don't take my word on this, but I think I heard that the interpretation that this was about lesbianism was based on some supposed Egyptian religious cult/practice where women had sex with women. I find it interesting that it's so vague compared to "If a man lies with a man as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." etc. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:32, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

The reason is simple. The emission of semen for no reason, or as it is called: "wasting seed", is one of the worst transgressions or the worst transgression in Judaism, up to the point where the Zohar says there is no repentance for it. (actually, even the Zohar agrees there is a way to repent, and that statement is only to show the severity of the sin; learners of kabbalah cite this as an example of why inexperienced people should not learn Kabbalah on their own.)

Therefore, death is only prescribed in places where there could technically be an emission, (even if there actually was no emission).

There is debate what the punishment for Lesbianism is; some say whiplashes, some say there is no punishment, but that the Court should punish them with whiplashes out of their own volition (called Makkoth Mardut). ZucherBundlech (talk) 19:44, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

If "the emission of semen for no reason" were a capital offence/mortal sin worthy of death, quite literally every single male on the planet would be put to death (ie masturbation). And any male that says "nay" is not telling the truth. So that explanation is ludicrous in its face, and I very highly doubt that any modern, mainstrean rabbis make such claims. (I don't doubt some 1000 years ago did; this is why you're being told 1000 year old sources are useless for what MODERN Jews believe).

(Btw, as for Onan, his offence was not merely "wasted seed": when HE pulled out and "spilt his seed", the act of doing so caused him to become guilty of rape (and of a virgin to boot), because he only has consent to do her for no other purpose other than sperm donation). 73.2.106.248 (talk) 05:11, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

The emission of seed is a sion worthy of death, but it is not punished by the court. It's in the hands of God... And yes, that's right, almost every single male on earth is guilty of it, if he doesn't repent. And as for Onan, what you wrote is not true, that's certainly not what Orthodox Judaism has to say about that.

And you're right a lot of "modern" "mainstream" Rabbis claim it is not forbidden; that's precisely the reason why most sources given on Wikipedia are not accurate when talking about Orthodox Judaism; For the record: ORTHODOX JEWS BELIEVE THAT NOT ONE SINGLE LAW HAS CHANGED IN THE LAST 3500 YEARS; like it or not, I don't care. ZucherBundlech (talk) 09:15, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

That's silly, even going only based on halakhic sources, most rabbinic literature is nothing but disagreements on how to interpret laws (plus the massive update to the religion writ large once the temple sacrifices became impossible due to exile) and firmly established that halakha is to be interpreted and adapted by humans. After all, Rabi Yehoshua amar: "lo bashamayim hi" (w/ commentary from Orthodox Union rabbis [61]).

You can stipulate the point of view that all of this is simply interpretation of the same underlying divine law, but the rabbinic discourse leaves quite clear that this interpretation was not self-evident or straightforward even for scholars, let alone Wikipedia editors. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 15:39, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

All of these disputes are only between Rabbis in the same era, e.g. Tannaim, Amoraim, Rishonim, Acharonim etc. No Orthodox Rabbi in th present times would dare deviate even slightly from the words of a Rishon, except if there is a disagreeing Rishon, of course. And even then there are rules: Sephardim follow the Shulchan Aruch who generally follows Maimonides and other Sephardic Rishonim, Ashkenazim follow the Rema who generally follows Rashi and Tosafot. And so on... ZucherBundlech (talk) 16:27, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

We can't use your personal opinion or knowledge to decide what an Orthodox Rabbi in present times would or would not dare to do. We have to rely on scholarship for that, and that means we cite modern, reliable sources. See WP:NOR. MrOllie (talk) 16:43, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

True. However, if I would source that claim to a modern, reliable source, that would prove that other new sources are inaccurate, and at best simply not about Orthodox Judaism, but rather about the Modern Orthodox. (not the same thing) ZucherBundlech (talk) 16:51, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Even If you sourced that claim, you could not then use that claim to build an argument for something else (again, see WP:NOR). I could cite a source that says Jews follow the 10 commandments. I could cite a source that explains the 10th commandment. I could not then write 'No Jew has ever coveted a neighbor's house.' MrOllie (talk) 16:58, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Personally I think that No. 5 ergo "no Jew has ever disrespected their parents" is the best example for making this point _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:17, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

But you could say "Jews believe a person shall not covet their neighbours hous". ZucherBundlech (talk) 19:31, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, there actually is debate if the what the Talmud calls נשים המסוללות זו בזו (Women ..... with each other) refers to Lesbianism. ZucherBundlech (talk) 19:54, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

That is true, but what they say about Rabbinic Judaism isn't true. ZucherBundlech (talk) 16:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

We can't rely on your own opinion of what's true or your interpretation of documents that are 900+ years old. You're going to have to work with modern scholarship, the kind found in secondary WP:RS. MrOllie (talk) 16:36, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

@MrOllie: I can source what I'm saying.

Please read Halakha. ZucherBundlech (talk) 16:47, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

There should be enough * University Press WP:RS which tell matter-of-factly what Orthodox Jews believe. There is no need to WP:CITE centuries old texts. tgeorgescu (talk) 16:49, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but nothing is as accurate as the first-hand material itself. I'm beginning to feel that you are somehow opposed to Orthodox Judaism's views, especially after what you wrote me on your user talk page ZucherBundlech (talk) 17:01, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't based upon first-hand material, but upon WP:SECONDARY sources. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:03, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

@Tgeorgescu: "first hand material" refers to the editors own research. Sorry... ZucherBundlech (talk) 17:12, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

If this is the "editors doing their own research is the best source" argument, then you're going to want to edit somewhere else. That's not how Wikipedia works. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:49, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

That is not what we say about WP:PRIMARY and WP:SECONDARY sources; as a rule we prefer the latter. Primary sources are important for research, but that isn’t what we do on Wikipedia. Repeated failure to recognize that this is part of our no original research policy is going to result in a loss of editing privileges if continued. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

@Rosguill: If you didn't notice, I quoted the Bible (the primary source) as well as Maimonides ( secondary source) precisely because I am aware of this. I would welcome an accurate later source. However, none have been provided. I will continue to search for later sources. ZucherBundlech (talk) 17:11, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Maimonides in this context, as part of the Jewish theological tradition and as a pre-modern text, is considered primary with respect to the topic. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:14, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

As I said, I'm searching for later sources. The problem is, not many Jewish Orthodox books have been written about the topic less than 200-150 years, since we tend to follow earlier sources in any case. The best I will probably find is a short summary or something similar. ZucherBundlech (talk) 17:18, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I expect that you’ll have a very easy time finding authoritative sources on the contemporary beliefs of Orthodox Jews on Google Scholar, as it is a topic that has drawn a fair amount of scholarly interest. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:19, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Here's some potentially useful sources:

• Traditional Jewish Sex Guidance: A History, Brill, seems like it would be an ideal source for the topic of Jewish attitudes towards sex as a whole.
• Women in Modern Judaism, Cambridge
• Observance of the Laws of Family Purity in Modern–Orthodox Judaism, Springer (which does appear to refer specifically to the Modern Orthodox movement and not those who are Orthodox today in the "modern" day, so a bit less useful maybe)

_signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:27, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

The real question is if they read such sources, or they consider these sources as attacking their religion. I was a fundamentalist myself, so I know they see higher criticism and religion studies as attacks upon their worldview. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:40, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

That is NOT true. Please stop attacking Jews and Orthodox Jews. Wikipedia is not a platform to promote your beliefs of Orthodox Jews being "anti women", "outdated", and as seeing criticism and religion studies as "attacks". You are free to make these accusations on social media; not here. ZucherBundlech (talk) 18:36, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Where are those quotes coming from? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:15, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Check the editors Talk Page ZucherBundlech (talk) 21:25, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Check Fundamentalist–modernist controversy (yup, it's about Christianity, but the same has played out in Judaism, and other religions) and https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/hebrew-bible/free-hebrew-bible-course-with-shaye-cohen/ (from 0:29:00 to 0:30:00, for more detailed: 0:27:00 to 0:30:00). Shaye J. D. Cohen confirms there that that controversy applies to Judaism, as well.

Also, the card of attacking Jews should not be played lightly. tgeorgescu (talk) 09:20, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

What am I missing? I can't find the term "anti woman" used and the only use of "outdated" is by you. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

My edits can be construed as anti-fundamentalist, but I don't indulge in hate speech. In respect to my own emotions: I do feel emotions such as jealousy, envy, anger, but I don't feel hate. I never learned that emotion. Let me be very clear: the previous three emotions are not about fundamentalists or the Jews, I was speaking of my own psychology. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:06, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Sorry T, thats a response to ZucherBundlech. I don't find your editing to be particularly anti-anything, no comment on whether core emotions are learned or not. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:14, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

"They are not Orthodox Jewish rabbis, but they are rabbis nevertheless. Yup, women can be rabbis, too."

"Wikipedia listens to modern mainstream WP:SCHOLARSHIP, not to Ancient or Medieval scholars. You are in the wrong place: this isn't Orthodox Jewish Wiki." ZucherBundlech (talk) 19:58, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Maybe I'm just over-sensitive, but this is a lot like other attacks I've been subjected to (not on Wikpedia) ZucherBundlech (talk) 20:00, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm still not seeing "anti woman" or "outdated" where are those quotes from? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:14, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Saying "Yup, women can be rabbis, too" (which is totaly unnecessary) is insinuating that I refused to accept her view because she is a women. Especially after what the editor wrote at the beginning of the discussion: "Maybe you work under the assumption that you should only trust scholars of Judaism who are male and halachically Jewish." ZucherBundlech (talk) 20:21, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

As for the outdated part, it was never explicit, but I got that feeling after repeatedly challenging me that "not to Ancient or Medieval scholars" "Orthodox Judaism does, Wikipedia doesn't. See WP:SYNTH. Medieval or early modern texts are not WP:RS for making claims in the voice of Wikipedia"

The fact is that Orthodox Judaism believes the Torah to be inflexible, the same today as it was 3000 years ago. I tried making that clear to Tgeorgescu, but the editor constantly circled back to the fact that it was long outdated.

But you're right; I should not have mentioned it. The discussion got a little bit too heated. I apologize for that, @Tgeorgescu.

Forgive me? ZucherBundlech (talk) 20:31, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

It isn't that the Torah is outdated; it is that Orthodox Jews in the present day do not interpret the Torah in the same way that Orthodox Jews 1000 years ago did. And it IS a subject of subjective interpretation, if it weren't there wouldn't be any reason for rabbis to exist at all! So the Torah can be used as a primary source only for its exact text. For the contemporary beliefs of Orthodox Jews, you need contemporary texts. Nobody 1000 years ago can be a source for what anybody in the present thinks. This should be patently obvious... 73.2.106.248 (talk) 05:35, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

That is what Reform Judaism is all about. Not Orthodox Judaism. ZucherBundlech (talk) 09:17, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

It is true that Rabbis are there to interprete the Torah, but they cannot change anything that was already said. All they do is interprete current circumstances which was never spoken about before (such as the laws applying to electricity, modern medicine, etc.) according to what the Torah says. And the other thing they do is tell people who haven't learnt the entire Torah yet what they should do. But Orthodox Judaism does not believe in revisionism! That's one of the core principles of Judaism. ZucherBundlech (talk) 14:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

The simple truth is that I don't think I have a right to voice here my opinion if Maimonides' work is outdated. It's just the way Wikipedia weighs WP:SOURCES. See WP:FORUM for details. tgeorgescu (talk) 14:57, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

That is true. However, it is a pity if that would render Wikipedia inaccurate. Maybe this case should be evaluated, to guarantee better accuracy with regard to Orthodox Judaism.

What would the rules say if I would bring sources ascertaining that in fact the Orthodox Jews even today follow the Shulchan Aruch? Actually more than that: the very definition of Orthodox Judaism is that they don't deviate from an earlier ruling, and that time has no effect whatsoever on the Torah? ZucherBundlech (talk) 16:47, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

If our sources are inaccurate, we're fine with Wikipedia being inaccurate as well. Have a look at WP:NOTTRUTH. MrOllie (talk) 16:49, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTTRUTH is talking about something that is not verifiable. What I'm saying is definitely verifiable... worst case you could always go around and poll Orthodox Jews... ZucherBundlech (talk) 16:57, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

No. You need to cite a modern source to verify something. See WP:V. I could theoretically count the grains of sand on a beach. But I can't then publish the results of my count on Wikipedia. MrOllie (talk) 16:59, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

worst case you could always go around and poll Orthodox Jews

No, we absolutely cannot. That is original research. Zucher, I think you need to accept that your ideas on sources are completely at odds with Wikipedia's, and you need to go edit elsewhere. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:30, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

If Orthodox Judaism does not engage in revisionism, where did glatt kosher come from? _signed, Rosguill ^talk 15:49, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

There is no prohibition to be more stringent. ZucherBundlech (talk) 16:09, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

You've moved the goalposts--I wasn't asking whether glatt kosher is heretical, I was asking whether it represents a change in actual practice by the self-describing Orthodox community. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:23, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Practice yes, laws no. ZucherBundlech (talk) 19:34, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Certainly they don't believe they believe in revisionism... but they do.

The penalty in the Torah for putting out someone's eye is to have your own eye put out. And it's very clear about that, says it in multiple places, and never once says that it means any kind of fine or monetary penalty. However, the penalty in the Talmud for the same offense is the monetary value of an eye. Clearly, even the oldest rabbis were not always going by the literal word of the Torah. Loki (talk) 16:55, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

For editors interested in reading more about the intertwined development of orthodoxy and revision, I found Henderson 1998 very accessible and illustrative. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:14, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Nobody revised the Bible. Judaism believes that the Written And the Oral Torah are unseparable. Instead of quoting a piece of Talmud you obviously never read inside, how about you really learn it? If you don't understand something don't hesistate to ask..

עין תחת עין אמר רחמנא אימא עין ממש לא סלקא דעתך דתניא יכול סימא את עינו מסמא את עינו קטע את ידו מקטע את ידו שיבר את רגלו משבר את רגלו ת"ל (ויקרא כד) מכה אדם ומכה בהמה מה מכה בהמה לתשלומין אף מכה אדם לתשלומין ואם נפשך לומר הרי הוא אומר (במדבר לה) לא תקחו כופר לנפש רוצח אשר הוא רשע למות לנפש רוצח אי אתה לוקח כופר אבל אתה לוקח כופר לראשי אברים שאין חוזרין הי מכה אילימא (ויקרא כד) מכה בהמה ישלמנה ומכה אדם יומת ההוא בקטלא כתיב אלא מהכא (ויקרא כד) מכה נפש בהמה ישלמנה נפש תחת נפש וסמיך ליה (ויקרא כד) ואיש כי יתן מום בעמיתו כאשר עשה כן יעשה לו האי לאו מכה הוא הכאה הכאה קאמרינן מה הכאה האמורה בבהמה לתשלומין אף הכאה האמורה באדם לתשלומין והא כתיב (ויקרא כד) ואיש כי יכה כל נפש אדם מות יומת בממון ממאי דבממון אימא במיתה ממש לא סלקא דעתך חדא דהא איתקש למכה בהמה ישלמנה ועוד כתיב בתריה כאשר יתן מום באדם כן ינתן בו ושמע מינה ממון ומאי אם נפשך לומר תו קא קשיא לתנא מאי חזית דילפת ממכה בהמה לילף ממכה אדם אמרי דנין ניזקין מניזקין ואין דנין ניזקין ממיתה אדרבה דנין אדם מאדם ואין דנין אדם מבהמה היינו דקתני אם נפשך לומר הרי הוא אומר לא תקחו כופר לנפש רוצח אשר הוא רשע למות כי מות יומת לנפש רוצח אי אתה לוקח כופר אבל אתה לוקח כופר לראשי אברים שאינן חוזרין והאי לא תקחו כופר לנפש רוצח למעוטי ראשי אברים הוא דאתא האי מבעי ליה דאמר רחמנא לא תעביד ביה תרתי לא תשקול מיניה ממון ותקטליה האי (דברים כה) מכדי רשעתו נפקא רשעה אחת אתה מחייבו ואי אתה מחייבו שתי רשעיות ואכתי מבעי ליה דקאמר רחמנא לא תשקול ממון ותפטריה א"כ לכתוב רחמנא לא תקחו כופר לאשר הוא רשע למות לנפש רוצח למה לי ש"מ לנפש רוצח אי אתה לוקח כופר אבל אתה לוקח כופר לראשי אברים שאינן חוזרין וכי מאחר דכתיב לא תקחו כופר מכה מכה למה לי אמרי אי מהאי הוה אמינא אי בעי עינו ניתיב ואי בעי דמי עינו ניתיב קמ"ל מבהמה מה מכה בהמה לתשלומין אף מכה אדם לתשלומין: תניא ר' דוסתאי בן יהודה אומר עין תחת עין ממון אתה אומר ממון או אינו אלא עין ממש אמרת הרי שהיתה עינו של זה גדולה ועינו של זה קטנה היאך אני קורא ביה עין תחת עין וכי תימא כל כי האי שקיל מיניה ממונא התורה אמרה (ויקרא כד) משפט אחד יהיה לכם משפט השוה לכולכם ZucherBundlech (talk) 19:29, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Okay, stop. You do not get to dictate what the facts are based on your understanding of the facts. You clearly do not care to adhere to Wikipedia's reliable sources rules, so why are you here? — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:31, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

@HandThatFeeds: I agree with you in the point you made that Wikipedia requires modern sources. I will not change any article without providing sources that adhere to WP:RS. What I'm trying to do now is explain what Orthodox Judaism really believes, so that when all of you go out to the big, wild world and edit Wikipedia, you will know what to look out for. If you see a source that blatantly ignores what I discussed now, that would mean it either is about Modern Orthodox Judaism, or plain inaccurate; and if you truly are interested in the truth, you might want to look for a better source.

That's all. ZucherBundlech (talk) 19:42, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

That's condescending as fuck. I'm aware of what Orthodox Jews believe, and that's beside the point. Lecturing us is just rude, and your insistence that you know better than the sources is not going to fly here. Knock it off. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:44, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

@Rosguill: Thanks. I'm aware that source do exist, and I will quote them; however, I prefere sources in the Jewish Orthodox world itself, which I have found to be more accurate. ZucherBundlech (talk) 18:29, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

What kind of source are you thinking of, exactly? By definition, sources that contradict the majority of reliable sources on a topic will be considered WP:FRINGE at best. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 19:00, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Yup, search for WP:IS, i.e. third-party observers. See emic and etic. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:23, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

@Rosguill: I'm sorry, I just reread my post. It is quit misleading. I apologize for that. ZucherBundlech (talk) 17:14, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.