Talk:Mass killings under communist regimes/Archive 23

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Proposal for new lede

Communist regimes have been accused of the largest mass killings in history, and the ideology has been described as capable of more violence than other regime type due to the changes they have attempted to bring about with the forceful mass dispossession of property from the population. Communism has been described as "the deadliest ideology in human history" and it has resulted in the murders of an estimated 100 million people. This article discusses mass killings under regimes that are commonly labeled Communist. It includes both intentional killings and those for which regime intent is disputed. Scholars place various level of blame for the deaths on the governments.

This proposal got lost in the chatter above so i am reposting it here. Lets hear your objections within policy please mark nutley (talk) 12:44, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

The "worst" mass killings? That's a pretty clear WP:NPOV violation. In addition, is the force of your evidence so strong that you can prove that they were the most "violent"? It seems more likely the sources available will only allow for conjecture (and disagreement), which should be clearly stated in the lede. How exactly do you define violence here, are we simply referring to death tolls? Also, levels of "blame" should be rephrased: try something like "The actual figures for killings attributed to communist regimes are subject to controversy". GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 12:58, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

The source says worst mass killings. The source says most violent. I`m not defining violence i am using what the sources say per wp:v If anyone has a source which says communism did not commit the worst mass killings in history lets see it mark nutley (talk) 13:01, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

The source can claim that they are the "worst", but we have two issues with that: firstly, "worst" is subjective; use a more concrete, more factual, and more neutral term. Secondly, unless it has very concrete, uncontested evidence backing up these claims, the closest that can be said is that historians believe them to have the highest death tolls (or whatever standard we're using for "worst"). And with regards to the most violent; the source saying that they were the most violent is meaningless unless they explain what is meant by that, in which case it can be clarified in the article. We shouldn't use fuzzy terms like "violent" with regards to mass killings: are we quantifying this term, as a death toll, or qualifying it as how "violent" their deaths were? GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 13:07, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Giftiger Wunsch. It's a lede littered with POV/OR. The article rightly contains mainstream material disputing the implications of your lede suggestion.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 13:11, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

In connection to the proposed lede Giftiger wunsch and VsevolodKrolikov adequately express my thoughts. Fifelfoo (talk) 13:14, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Changed it a bit, there is no wp:or in the proposal btw mark nutley (talk) 13:19, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

• This proposal seems to just be replacing a neutral, informative lead with an entirely negative one with WP:NPOV issues and WP:LABELs, and still some potential OR issues (and bad grammar, but that can be fixed). GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 13:23, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

We have three editors on here who keep saying the lede needs changing. I do not see how this is negative, we use what the sources say. I do not see any labels being chucked in either, please give an alternate wording for what you think is not NPOV mark nutley (talk) 13:26, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Characterising the deaths as "murders" is OR/POV. What marknutley seems not to grasp is that views such as communism is "the deadliest ideology in human history" are disputed by mainstream academics, and as such are not suitable for bald statement in a lede. It doesn't matter what any of us think, it's what the reliable literature says, and what it says without us manipulating or misrepresenting it. The old lede is much better than this proposal.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 13:29, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) There are clearly a large number of sources being used on this article, and the article is a decent length, overall making it difficult to adequately sum up the article in the lead. I haven't looked at the sources in any great detail and I take little or no interest in this subject, I am simply trying to aide in consensus building here. The lead is entirely negative, claiming that the communist regimes are the worst, using qualitative language and labelling them as the "worst" and selectively quoting material referring to them as "the deadliest ideology", taking no other material into account and inaccurately representing the collection of sources (I haven't read them myself, but looking at the discussion here, I can see that much) GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 13:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

This is really quite simple, show a source which says there were worse regime types who commited more murders. Until then we use what we have wp:v verifiability not truth. The sources used say exactly what is in the proposal there is not wp:or not does it breach wp:npov as it is widly accepted from the amount of sources that communism has killed more people than any other regime type mark nutley (talk) 13:33, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Exactly; verifiability: can you show how your sources are verifying these claims? All we can say for sure is that they're making the claims. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 13:34, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Mark, comparing sources to decide which one is worse is original research. Perhaps wikipedia is not the venue for what you want to say about communism - you might want to get published in the literature instead.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 13:36, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Don`t be daft Giftiger, wiki does not work that way and you know it, i`m not going to second guess reliable sources and nor should you. All the sources used here are wp:rs and the most are academic sources, that`s what wp:v is we use a source which is verifiable, we do not look at how the source reached it`s conclusions as that would be OR mark nutley (talk) 13:38, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Mark, that's exactly how wikipedia works. We can hardly call sources verifiable if we can't verify the claims they make. If they are reliable sources which we can verify, they will provide evidence, not just unsupported claims. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 13:41, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Erm, no. A source is verifiable by going out and looking at a book or journal or newspaper. How am i meant to verify how a researcher comes to his conclusions? Or an author? We use as a source what they write, we don`t go through their work to look for mistakes. mark nutley (talk) 13:46, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

You verify it by looking at the evidence they've presented to make their conclusions, as I just explained. You also check other references to see if there is dispute in the field; you are clearly just selectively reading the sources which agree with your POV and using it to justify colouring the lede. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 13:48, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with you, we use what the sources say thats it. There is of course dispute within the field over the amount of dead, which is why my proposal says an estimated 100 million dead. It does not give an exact number does it. Sorry but the sources say what they say, and they say an estimated `100 million dead under communist regimes, and those are all reliable sources. mark nutley (talk) 13:54, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

As I'm sure you're aware, since you've read my above comments, it's not the 100,000,000 figure that I'm disputing. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 13:55, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Do me a favour and point out what you think is actually wrong with the proposal? I have already changed it and am quite willing to do so again, make a suggestion mark nutley (talk) 13:57, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Mark, you should read what policy says about misrepresenting academic consensus. Individual reliable sources are not treated as gospel in wikipedia.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 13:58, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

The victims of Communism website used in the proposal is not a reliable source. Notice that their home page presents a documentary about Communism by Glenn Beck. The best approach is to read the mainstream literature and see what it says, rather than seek confirmation of ones opinions in sources. TFD (talk) 14:22, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I`m not misrepresenting anything.Removed accusation of personal attack which may itself be considered a personal attack. Comment on content, not other editors. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 14:47, 8 September 2010 (UTC) All the sources meet wp:rs if you don`t like it the RSN board is thataway mark nutley (talk) 14:34, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Given that all other editors have disagreed with your use of sources for your proposed lede, it would be up to you to appeal to RSN for extra input. The general consensus, such as it is, is that your proposal is inappropriate.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 14:51, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

No, all the sources are fine as laid out in wp:rs if you think they are not take it to the rsn board. If all you are going to write is WP:IDONTLIKEIT and not actually make any suggestions then why are you bothering to comment at all? mark nutley (talk) 14:55, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Frankly mark nutley, you're the only individual who has contributed to this thread without citing policy; everyone else has made policy-based arguments as to why your lede is inappropriate. Consensus is clearly against your proposal, thus far. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 15:00, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Mark, our response is pretty clear - it's worse than the old lede and should not replace it. There is a difference between an RS and academic consensus - the latter is necessary for something to be stated so baldly in the lede. In addition, as TFD points out, the victims of communism website cannot be considered to be RS. VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 15:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC).

Indeed; you appear to be making these statements as facts, and they are by no means proven facts, nor do your references prove otherwise. Unless you can demonstrate that there is general academic consensus in favour of what you've written in the lede, we must give equal weight to all mainstream theories, and not bias the lede in such a way. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 15:18, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

There is nothing in policy which says i need demonstrate that there is general academic consensus in favour of anything. Why not show me your academic consensus which says my sources are wrong? mark nutley (talk) 15:21, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Mark, you're just repeating the same thing over and over and refusing to listen to policy-based arguments; please read up on the relevant policies already indicated here and on your talk page, and reconsider your proposal having understood those policies and our arguments. Bear in mind that "you're wrong" is not an argument, only policy-based arguments will be considered in determining consensus. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 15:26, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I am stating policy, the sources meet wp:rs and wp:v that is policy. You have asked me to demonstrate that there is general academic consensus in favour of what you've written there is nothing in policy which says i have to, if there is point it out. I would like to see your policy based argument against this, not that you know stuff. Show me were it is wrong, suggest an alternative wording not just i don`t like what you`ve written. mark nutley (talk) 15:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

You've already been directed to WP:FRINGE, Wikipedia:RS/AC#Academic_consensus, and WP:UNDUE, and consensus is clearly rejecting your proposal. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 15:34, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Which part of the proposal is undue then? It certainly is not fringe, unless you have a source which says it is of course, and still waiting on your source which says there is an academic consensus which says communist regimes have not committed mass killings. As stated, there is nothing in policy which says i have to provide a source proving academic consensus on anything so drop that one please. Why not just suggest some alternative wording? mark nutley (talk) 15:39, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) You're completely mis-stating everything we've said to the point that your contributions to this discussion are becoming unconstructive. Please quote when anyone has claimed that communist regimes have not been involved in mass killings. We are saying, per WP:RS/AC, you cannot express the opinions of a few sources as fact unless there is general academic consensus to support that, and no opposing theories. All mainstream theories must be given equal weight per WP:UNDUE. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 15:43, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Were am i stating anything as fact? Or claiming there is a consensus for what the sources are saying? I`m not. I have asked you loads of times now, suggest alternate wording, why is that so difficult? It`s how were meant to do things mate. mark nutley (talk) 15:48, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Your lede is NOT NPOV. It does NOT take into account the mutliple academic disputes with the assertions your lede suggests to be factual. BigK HeX (talk) 16:12, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I think the current lede reads more like an editorial disclaimer rather than a summary of the article. It really should be rewritten. --Martin (talk) 20:13, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that any attempt to write something reasonable cause vehement objection of one or another party. If you believe you are able to propose something, please do that. Another option is to try to do that together: taking into account that you and I have quite opposite POVs, although are able to listen each other's arguments, that may lead to something useful.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:18, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Paul, I don't think I can agree with the premise that we necessarily have "opposite POVs", but I do agree that we can work together. The following I propose as a summary of the article:

The killing of a large numbers of non-combatants has occurred in certain countries that have declared themselves to be communist states. A number of causes have been proposed by various scholars as to the causes for this phenomenon, ranging from direct linkage to ideology to failure of the rule of law, economic conditions or other factors. Countries where mass killings have been documented to have occurred are the Soviet Union, People's Republic of China, Cambodia and others. A number of cases of mass killings have caused debate and dissent amongst academics. Some countries have legislated and prosecuted perpetrators of these mass killings.

--Martin (talk) 16:42, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I stressed the fact that we frequently have quite different POV, because that may help to rule out possible accusations in non-neutrality of jointly proposed text. Obviously, that does not mean our POVs are always opposite. For instance, our understanding of what the words "neutrality" or "reliable source" mean fully coincide.

One way or the another, I was right expecting that you will propose a very reasonable piece of text. Interestingly, the draft proposed by you closely resembles the text proposed by me earlier,[1]

"Intentional killing of large numbers of noncombatants, as a rule, for belonging to a particular social group, occurred in the Soviet Union under Stalin, in the People's Republic of China under Mao, and in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, and on a smaller scale in North Korea, Vietnam, and some Eastern European and African countries that declared adherence to a Communist doctrine. These killings, that took place mostly during civil wars, mass elimination of political opponents, mass terror campaigns, or land reforms may fit a definition of mass murder, democide, politicide, "classicide", "crimes against humanity", or loosely defined genocide. Nevertheless, main causes of excess preventable deaths under Communist rule were not murders or executions but war, famine and disease. Although some scholars add a considerable part of these deaths to a total democide or genocide death toll, the validity of such an approach is not accepted by others."

and which has been reverted later.

May be we should try to think how to combine these two texts together?--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:09, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Although Martintg's lead is written in less alarming language than other proposals, it still suffers from the same problems. It presupposes that there is a connection between Communism and mass killings (which it describes as a "phenomenon"), and then indicates that there is a debate about what the connection is, giving priority to a "direct linkage to ideology". A neutral lead would indicate who has made the connection and the degree of acceptance of their theories. Incidentally no country has ever declared itself to be a communist state. TFD (talk) 17:57, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

You mix "declared itself to be a communist state" and "declared adherence to a Communist doctrine" (more precisely, "to one or another form of a Communist doctrine"). For example the USSR never declared itself to be Communist, however it was declared that building of Communism was its ultimate goal. Incidentally, "Communist state" is an oxymoron: according to Lenin (who saw state primarily as a tool helping a ruling class to oppress other classes), state will be abolished in the Communist society (as a result of formation of a classless society).

In any event, if you think Martintg's lead is written in less alarming language, you recognise it is a step forward. Please, explain what should be included/changed there. It would be good if you proposed some concrete text.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:14, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

(out) Compare with similar articles about theories:

• The Protestant Work Ethic... is a concept... attributable to the work of Max Weber. It is based upon the notion....
• Intelligent design is the proposition that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause...."

We do not see these articles begin:

• Sociologists disagree about why Protestant countries were so successful.
• Scientists argue about why living beings show evidence of design.

The lead should indicate who has made the connection, what connection they have made and the degree of acceptance of their theories. If we assume that there is a connecion which historians seek to explain then we are inserting a bias into the article.

TFD (talk) 18:46, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Not completely correct. The examples provided by you discuss some single concept. By contrast, mass killings by Communist is not a single concept. Rummel discusses democide in a context of totalitarianism, not only Communism (his obsession with Communism seems to stem from his wrong estimates of the number of victims, and is exacerbated by his libertarian political views), Lemkin tried to expand his concept of genocide, which was developed to describe Nazi crimes, on Communism, Harff, or Wayman and Tago discuss a connection between autoritarianism (not even totalitarianism) and mass killings, Watson sees genocidal roots in the very Marx's doctrine, whereas other scholars note intrinsically non-genocidal nature of Marxism. In addition, many scholars simply avoid any generalisations and theorising at all, preferring to focus of some particular regime separately (or group them according to some other traits, e.g. Cambodia + Indonesia, Cambodia + Warsaw ghetto, etc). Therefore, I simply don't understand how your proposal can be implemented.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:45, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

break

The concepts of genocide, democide and mass killings by authoritarian regimes are not types of "mass killings under Communist regimes", but may occur under other types of regimes as well. There is only one major theory that sees Communist ideology as the cause of mass killings, and that is found in the writings of Furet, Courtois, Rummel and Nolte. Watson's theory has gained no following. TFD (talk) 21:10, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

...that is why I simply wrote "These killings, that took place mostly during civil wars, mass elimination of political opponents, mass terror campaigns, or land reforms may fit a definition of mass murder, democide, politicide, "classicide", "crimes against humanity", or loosely defined genocide," thus leaving the question of connection between these events and the Communist doctrine beyond the scope.

In connection to that, did I understand you correct that the major your objection is caused by the words: "A number of causes have been proposed by various scholars as to the causes for this phenomenon"? If yes, I have to agree that that is the most questionable part of the Martin's text: by writing that he assumes that all these events are generally considered as a same phenomenon, or similar phenomena caused by the same reason/combination of reasons. I agree that that is hardly a majority POV.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:50, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I did write "A number of causes have been proposed by various scholars as to the causes for this phenomenon", so I can't see why you would suggest that I assumed this "caused by the same reason/combination of reasons", and by "phenomenon" I meant "mass killings", which I would suggest is a term that spans mass murder, democide, politicide, "classicide", or loosely defined genocide. But taking onboard your comments and merged some elements of your proposed lede:

The killing of a large numbers of non-combatants has occurred in certain states that have declared adherence to some form of Communist doctrine. Mass killings have been documented to have occurred in the Soviet Union under Stalin, in the People's Republic of China under Mao, and in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, and on a smaller scale in North Korea, Vietnam, and some Eastern European and African countries. These killings, that took place during civil wars, mass elimination of political opponents, mass terror campaigns, or land reforms may fit a definition of mass murder, democide, politicide, "classicide", "crimes against humanity", or loosely defined genocide. A number of causes for these killings have been proposed by various scholars, ranging from direct linkage to ideology to failure of the rule of law, economic conditions or other factors. A number of cases of mass killings have caused debate and dissent amongst academics. Some countries have legislated and prosecuted perpetrators of these mass killings.

--Martin (talk) 09:36, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I reckon Martins proposal is fine as is myself mark nutley (talk) 23:07, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Martintg, you assume that there is a phenomenon that scholars seek to explain. In fact few scholars see a phenomenon and therefore nothing to explain. In fact the literature drawing a connection has had little if any attention in mainstream scholarship. TFD (talk) 13:42, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree. This proposal suffers the same non-NPOV problems, in suggesting that there IS necessarily a [late-editcommon] cause, when these theories are not even generally accepted by academics. This is a minority POV article, yet people keep trying to write it as if we're discussing the Laws of Gravitation. BigK HeX (talk) 14:46, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Of course, every mass killing had a cause. The question is if the cause was common.

Did I understand correct that the only major objections is again caused by the phrase: "A number of causes have been proposed by various scholars as to the causes for these killings..."? If yes, I again have to agree. This phrase still implies that all these events had some common cause (or their combination), and that majority of mainstream scholars try to find these causes. In actuality, only few scholars tried to find some commonality between different Communist mass killings, preferring to study some concrete case, or group these events according to other traits.

Regarding commonality, I think the words "as a rule, for belonging to some particular social group", which were present in my version, should be in the lede, because that reflects the position of arguably the only scholar (Semelin) whose concept of "classicide" directly links to Communist (and not to others) mass killings. The words about "war, famine and disease" should also be there, because the article discusses not only killings from the commonsensual point of view (executions, murders), but famine and deportation deaths.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:08, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I am referring to a common cause, but, IMO, removing that line still does little to move towards writing the article explicitly from the minority POV perspective, as is required by the sourcing available on the topic. BigK HeX (talk) 15:12, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

We should avoid collapsing the two issues of whether there is a recognised phenomenon - that there were large scale killings in leading communist states - with whether these killings are attributed in the literature to something in the logic of communism in principle or practice. The article seeks to cover both sides of that argument. TFD and BigHex also need to define who - for you - "mainstream scholars" are in reference to this subject. For example, few biologists - few cell biologists even - write directly on the evolution of mitochondria in cells. That doesn't make the subject of mitochondrial evolution or a theory thereof automatically "minority" ones. As it stands, there seem to be quite a few who raise the issue of the phenomenon of large scale killings in some communist societies - even if some of them seek to clearly dismiss theories that link it to communism per se, or who raise the connection with regard to any one particular country. VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 15:21, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Naw ... I'd say it's not really necessary to define the mainstream, because of cell biologists. The huge difference likely comes down to serious academic dispute. As Paul Siebert would agree, there is substantial serious academic dispute with the theories that the article attempts to suggest as fact. It is a minority POV topic, and the continual efforts to write it without this explicitly recognized are all doomed to fail NPOV. BigK HeX (talk) 15:25, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

BigHex, first of all, it's just silly (or stretching AGF to its limit) refusing to say which scholars you are talking about when trying to determine notability. Is it all historians? All historians looking at genocide? All historians looking at any part of the history of any country when it had communist rule? I would understand "mainstream scholars" to be those people who one might expect to mention such a connection given the material they cover. Secondly, you misrepresent the article by saying it presents theories as facts when it doesn't (that's what the new lede proposal is directly addressing) - unless you mean there is no way it could ever do so, in which case your arguments are actually suited to an AFD, and not to a discussion about the lede.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 15:37, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

???? Nothing in my comments above mentioned notability -- I've said the article is built on a minority POV. To my knowledge, there has never been any evidence posted on this talk page, that any theories on common causal links have any substantial academic acceptance. There has been posted on the talk page, plenty of evidence of serious academic dispute with many of the theories, on which this article rests. BigK HeX (talk) 15:47, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I had understood that your agreement with TFD's statement about few scholars recognising the phenomenon was an agreement that the topic per se was not notable - I apologise if you meant something different. I agree with what you say - that there has been plenty of academic dispute - and that this is something the article rests on. The article should deal with the nature of the disputes, given that they are plenty. (I ask precisely for what "mainstream" means, and for the topic and theories of the topic not to be collapsed, because the question of whether it was something inherent in communism in some respect is raised rather frequently when scholars try to look for explanations either within or across regimes.) Is this not a version of the article you can work towards?VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 16:01, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the article topic is notable or not ... it seems to generally rely on two major authors (Conquest and Rummel), with a smattering of a few other lesser works (Valentino, Black Book). Each of these works may be notable enough for an individual article, but tying them together has always seemed dicey to me. It brings us to having an article which is based on only a small handful of heavily disputed sources --- the result being an article of such minority POV as to be arguably a fringe topic. Certainly, it is plausible that there is a significant causal link between mass killings and communism, but it has almost always been unclear in this article that these theories are a minority viewpoint. BigK HeX (talk) 16:23, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

As for what can be worked towards with the article, I'm not really sure what that article would look like, but surely a reader quickly would have an understanding that the article relates two topics ("mass killings" and "Communist regimes") for which academic theories on the relationship are disputed. BigK HeX (talk) 16:41, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

IMO, we have to discriminate between two things: (i) notability of the events which are being discussed in the article, and (ii) notability of the POV according to which these events had some common cause (e.g. Communist ideology). Whereas the former is notable, the latter is hardly notable enough to present it as a mainstream POV. I think this confusion was a reason why the article survived four AfD's ("since (i) is notable, the article should be kept"). And, simultaneously, this is a reason of the article's non-neutrality: the proponents of (ii) cite notability of (i) to present (ii) as a mainstream POV (which is obviously incorrect).--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:46, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Paul, I'm glad you've got the point I was making about distinguishing between the two. However, I disagree with you and BigHex over the notability of those on that side of the debate - who, after all, would count as a major author in this field? Martin Malia also considered communism itself a factor, for example (and the Black Book, for all its many faults, is not minor). John Gray is not a minor writer either. And Benjamin Valentino has been cited many, many times. In addition to that we can't ignore major writers who accept the validity of the question, even if they reject the answer. My whole view of (and interest in) this article is that should a user plug in something like "Communist genocide", they are directed to a page that details the dispute amongst scholars, rather than finding what you fear could happen, which is one that confirms their POV. I'm not here to have a go at communism - but to find a way of providing information on the scholarly discourse. That's how we keep it encyclopedic. And as you say yourself, there is plenty of discourse, although I disagree with you that there are very few notable scholars or publications that do make a link to something within communism itself.

As an aside, although an important one, I do think there is a content fork with Criticisms of Communist party rule. Where the two articles overlap, this one seems to be in a better state than that one in terms of POV balance. We might want to look at how the articles fit together. And some editors might have a go at re-balancing that article, although I don't mean that as a request to edit something else instead ;-).VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 16:53, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I would say it is not notable because we cannot find any article or book that is exclusively about this subject. TFD (talk) 16:53, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

The main fault with the Black Book is of course the introduction, which is the only place that draws a connection between Communism and mass killings. Courtois actually restates a theory of Furet, who himself was restating his theory about the French Revolution. Essentially both revolutions led to worse regimes that used mass killings and there is a direct line from the Great Terror to the Red Terror. Watson, who was a Liberal, of course rejected this. Communism derived from conservatism, which is why his theories have not proved popular with the Right. Also he wrote outside the academic mainstream and outside his topic of interest. I would love to see a debate between Watson and Courtois. TFD (talk) 17:13, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

You're putting forward arguments for AFD, not for how to improve the lede. Could you perhaps be more constructive?VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 17:16, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

How is explaining what the literature says an argument for deletion? I think the lead should mention the literature and what it says, and I have just explained what it says. Please do not assume that people who disagree with you are not constructive. TFD (talk) 17:28, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

The lede is meant to be an intro to the article, not a discussion of the literature mark nutley (talk) 17:30, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure how describing rationale for a legitimate AfD would not be constructive..... BigK HeX (talk) 17:39, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

mark nutley, those two are not mutually exclusive, in fact sometimes they may be the same thing. TFD (talk) 17:45, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Re: "For example, few biologists - few cell biologists even - write directly on the evolution of mitochondria in cells. That doesn't make the subject of mitochondrial evolution or a theory thereof automatically "minority" ones." Correct. However, the analogy is not good. The evolution of the mitochondrial DNA is a subject of study, not a concept. The closest its analogue in our case are mass killings in some countries. Obviously, neither former nor later cannot be neither minority nor majority POV, no matter how many scholars study that, simply because it is something objective. By contrast the concept is, e.g., the idea that accumulation of mutations in mitochondrial DNA leads to ageing and death. This is a theory, which is not shared by all scholars working in this field, and which can be considered minority or majority views. By analogy, in our case such a hypothesis is that Communist mass killings had common cause and were directly linked to the Communist ideology. That is what we can call either majority or minority views, no matter how many scholars work in this field.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:31, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Re: BigK HeX's "Certainly, it is plausible that there is a significant causal link between mass killings and communism..." Not necessarily. Consider the following:

1. Communist revolutions as a rule, are victorious in poor agrarian countries with weak democratic traditions, whose population is prone to violence;
2. These revolutions, as a rule, occur during the periods of political and economical catastrophes, which exacerbate people's tendency to resort to violence as a tool to resolve all problems;
3. As a result, the social and economic background for all social transformations required by Communist doctrine is very unfavourable, which inevitably leads to the outburst of violence. (I do not pretend to put forward any new theories, however, before thinking about some plausible connections it would be useful, per Okkam's razor, to exclude any post hoc ergo propter hoc.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:44, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Your suggestion about the role of the social, economic background and agrarian countries with weak democratic tradition being the primary cause of mass killings can be countered with the analogy of the fire triangle, where each of the three components are equally likely to cause a fire in the presence of the other two. Pour the fuel of communist ideology on the smouldering discontent of such societies, and mass killing is likely to occur. But I think we are getting off topic in regard to the issue of the lede. VsevolodKrolikov makes a valid point here, the fact that there are a number of eminent scholars in the field who believe there is a causal link between communist ideology and mass killing cannot be ignored, and that this article serves as a road map to those opinions for and against that link. --Martin (talk) 19:45, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Fire triangle is not a good analogy, because its all three components are independent. By contrast, in the case we discuss, there is a positive correlation both between poverty and a victory of Communists, and between poverty and lack of democratic traditions (which leads to violence).

In other words, strong correlation between Communism and democide, observed by Rummel, could be just a correlation, not a casual linkage. Interestingly, Rummel, whose approach is based on pure math and produces only correlations, not explanations, easily switches to conclusions about casual linkages, whereas other scholars speak just about "statistically significant correlations", leaving theoretical speculations beyond the scope. How do you propose to reflect that?--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:19, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

The way to prove the triangle theory is see whether mass killings in occurred in countries where Communism was defeated. But in fascist Europe, Indonesia, Latin America and other places where this happened the Right seemed just as likely to engage in mass killings. In fact in Russia and China, where the Communists ultimately triumphed, the Right were also ruthless. In any case we need a source that presents this theory - we cannot create one on our own. TFD (talk) 20:54, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

General comments: This latest discussion is inappropriate - it's editors' own POVs and OR, and only illustrates agendas - on both sides. As for continually putting forward arguments for deletion such that it frustrates attempts to build consensus on how to improve the article (which has been through several AFDs now), it's against how wikipedia should work (calling an AFD is the honest thing to do). And as for refusing to define terms cited continually in such arguments - it speaks volumes. I'm off to help build an encyclopedia.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 00:34, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

break 2

The arguments are not about whether the article should be deleted but about how to present it. Right now the lead is question-begging - it presupposes that there is a connection between communist regimes and mass killings, which scientists are trying to explain. In fact there is no obvious connection and therefore no academic debate about what the connection is. TFD (talk) 00:49, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Eminent scholars like Martin Malia, John N. Gray and Benjamin Valentino have made such a connection, and if this isn't an instance of "academic debate", I don't know what is. In any case my proposed lede makes no assumptions. What assumption does "A number of causes for these killings have been proposed by various scholar, ranging from direct linkage to ideology to failure of the rule of law, economic conditions or other factors" make? And what is wrong with "A number of cases of mass killings have caused debate and dissent amongst academics"? --Martin (talk) 17:02, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Points regarding "academic debate" notwithstanding, I think TFD is correct in that most iterations of this article have been question begging. BigK HeX (talk) 17:15, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Dear Martin. The Wayman&Tago's article discusses correlation between various factors and the onset of mass killings. It is a methodological article, which, importantly, does not discuss a dispute over Communism and mass killings. Instead, it discusses a methods to establish statistically significant linkage between various factors (Communist ideology being just one of them) and the onset of mass killings, leaving a casual linkage mostly beyond the scope. In other words, the article (which is, in my opinion, a very good work) is a directly demonstration of my point, namely, that the connection between Communism and mass killings is not a major subject of interest of majority scholars working in the area of mass killings.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:34, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

That broader issue is somewhat off-topic, the issue at hand in this section is to formulate a lede which is a fair summary of the current article, can we focus on that? --Martin (talk) 18:03, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

To summarize the objection to your proposed lead: We cannot assume that the connection between mass killings and Communist regimes is a fact that must be explained, rather we should state that some writers have drawn a connection. Also, we should not present alternative explanations except where they are in reply to that thesis. The lead should state who is making the connection, what connection they make and the degree of acceptance of their theories. TFD (talk) 18:15, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

I fail to see what assumptions is being made by the line "A number of causes for these killings have been proposed by various scholars, ranging from direct linkage to ideology to failure of the rule of law, economic conditions or other factors", it is simply a very basic summary of the section Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes#Proposed_causes, which already discusses who is making the connection, what connection they make and the degree of acceptance of their theories. Do we really need to copy that section into the lede verbatim? --Martin (talk) 18:24, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Saying, "A number of causes for these killings have been proposed by various scholars" implies that there is a phenomenon that social scientists seek to explain. This may be apophenia: finding a pattern in unrelated events. TFD (talk) 18:35, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Concur. In addition, let me quote the Wayman&Tago's article:

"Consistently with this, we expect mass killings by military regimes to be frequent and rapid in onset, but to kill thousands rather than millions per episode. An alternative form of autocracy is a communist regime. The organizational base of these regimes is the communist party, often having a membership consisting of upwards of 10 % of the total population of the society. Communist regimes have an ideology (Marxism-Leninism) that can legitimize massive regime efforts to transform society – often including mass killings in the millions. This combination of ideology and organization permits the killing of millions in communist mass killings. But communist regimes, especially in Eastern Europe in the Khrushchev and Brezhnev eras, frequently went decades without such ‘mega-murdering.’ So, communist regimes can mobilize the society and, usually on the way to fortifying their regime, the government is more likely to commit large-scale political purges (Valentino, 2004: 99-100). While communist regimes seem to kill large numbers (Rummel, 1994), we predict that military regimes engage in the most frequent mass killing and hence have the shortest time to onset."

In connection to that, I would like to point your attention at the following:

1. Wayman & Tago, as well as Valentino (explicitly) as well as many other scholars (implicitly) note that many Communist regimes were not involved in mass killings. This fact is reflected neither in the lede not in the article as whole; however, the fact that many regimes were not involved, implies that the connection between mass killings and Communism is not as direct as someone tries to present;
2. Wayman & Tago build their conclusions based on the Rummel's figures (that does not mean that they agree or disagree with Rummel, they clearly write that the question of validity of the numbers is left beyond the scope). However, since Rummel's numbers (at least in regard to Yugoslavia and the USSR) are shown to be a gross exaggeration, the statement about high mortality of Communist regimes also should be re-considered.

--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:51, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

"A phenomenon" is singular. "These killings" is plural. However, perhaps the distinction between individual and common causes should be more explicit in the lede. AmateurEditor (talk) 18:41, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. The sentence can be understood as "A number of causes for these killings [which are considered a part of the same phenomenon (otherwise it is not clear why they have been combined in one article)] have been proposed by various scholars" It should also be stressed that many scholars do not study Communist mass killings per se, they study them in a broader context (see, e.g. Valentino), or, conversely, they study separate cases avoiding any generalisations (see, e.g. Ellman).--Paul Siebert (talk)

I am well aware that the word phenomenon is singular, which is why I used the singular conjugation of the verb to be. My objection is to using a lead that presupposes that various phenomena together are part of a single phenomenon, which I described as apophenia. TFD (talk) 19:18, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Yet ironically not only does Wayman & Tago, which Paul kindly cites, treat communist mass killing as a phenomenon, they also compare and contrast it to mass killings by military regimes, i.e. communist mass killings are larger but less frequent while those perpetrated by military regimes tend to be smaller but more frequent. --Martin (talk) 22:18, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Waqyman & Tago do not state that "communist mass killings were larger but less frequent". They just cite Rummel's conclusion (which, as other authors demonstrated) were based on grossly exaggerated figures.

Again, Waqyman & Tago's article is not an instance of "academic debate" over Communist mass killing. It is a debates over the causes of mass killings in general, so to it would be against a WP policy to use this, as well as many other sources as a proof of the existence of some debates specifically aimed to establish a connection between mass killings and Communism.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:52, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Social sciences have the same standards as natural sciences. We cannot assume that connections exist unless they are accepted by scientific consensus. Individuals may draw connections between unconnected events, but we cannot do that. TFD (talk) 00:23, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

"...This proposal got lost in the chatter above so i am reposting it here..."

I don't think this trick is completely legitimate, because this chatter was a series of arguments MarkNutley failed to address[2]. By calling all of that "chatter" MarkNutley demonstrated the lack of respect to the arguments of the others.
In my opinion, any discussion of his draft should be suspended until he addressed earlier criticism.
In particular, despite multiple explanations of what the source tell about the number of victims, he continued to cherry-pick sources which support his figure of 100 million and ignores the explanations that this figure comes from earlier estimates.
This approach (to look sources that support your POV, instead of attempting to find out what reliable source say and write the article accordingly) is deeply flawed and is a major breach of the WP policy.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:41, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Please stick to comments which will improve the article, rather than criticising the legitimacy of mark nutley's thread and his comments therein; the correct venue for such complaints is WP:WQA or WP:ANI. I think it's become clear that consensus is against nutley's proposal, and would suggest it, and this off-shoot section, be archived by an editor previously uninvolved in the discussion; it's no longer a constructive discussion. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 15:45, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Taking into account that the same issues are being raised again and again on this talk page, this discussion is constructive. The attention mush be drawn to previous criticism (and failure to address it) to prevent re-appearance of the same flawed arguments again and again.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:58, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Within this discussion, the same arguments, unfounded or illfounded in policy, are being repeated; I don't think that's constructive. In addition, consensus seems clear IMO, so I don't see any further reason to continue the discussion of this proposal. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 16:02, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Inline tags in the lede

Given that the lede is meant to be a summary of an amply cited text, are they really needed here? --Martin (talk) 20:07, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

No they weren't needed, IMO. I don't really see much justification for them. BigK HeX (talk) 20:08, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I also am not a supporter of the idea to have references in the lede. The lede is just a summary of what the article says, and all needed references can be found there. It seems to me (although I may be wrong) that the tags were added by someone who was not satisfied with some lede's statements, and that has been done just as a first step of the process aimed to delete these statements.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:13, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

That's my feeling exactly, Paul. Thanks for saying it. BigK HeX (talk) 23:51, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

There's no need for references in the lead; as stated, it's simply a summary of the article, which should be well-sourced. Providing there's no material in the lede which isn't in the article (which shouldn't be the case anyway), inline citations in the bulk of article should be sufficient. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 00:25, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

• Keep While they may not be required, they are helpful when new editors arrive and wish to change the lead. If there are no sources for it then it is hard to defend. If one enjoys long debates with newly arriving editors then not using sources is the way to go. TFD (talk) 23:46, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

If a lede is good (i.e. it correctly summarises the article), the refs plays only auxiliary role in the lede: every one can add them, but noone can request them. In other words, the refs are acceptable, but {cn} tags are not.--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:56, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Citation needed tags are perfectly acceptable in the lead, as they are anywhere else; but if the same statement has been referenced elsewhere in the article, they are unnecessary. Per WP:Lead section#Citations, consensus should decide whether or not references are appropriate in the lead. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 07:51, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Lede revert

It was requested that I explain why I reverted "worst mass killings", etc out of the lede. For starters, "worst" looked like superlative that needed far more explanation than the lede should afford, and even outside of the lede it seems a disputed assertion. BigK HeX (talk) 18:18, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. As I've mentioned before, "worst" is subjective and against NPOV. Do we really need to keep having these same discussions? "Worst" is not an appropriate measure of mass murders. "Highest death tolls", providing the evidence for such a statement is strong, is much more suitable. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 18:39, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes i asked you to as it is one of the restrictions on this article, i thought you knew about it? The source used says worst, why is valention`s book now suddenly not wp:rs? But i`m happy to use highest death tolls as Giftiger says mark nutley (talk) 19:11, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Controversial or not, we're really missing something here.

Germany, circa WWII (remember that?), the holocaust. People try to argue otherwise, but the NAZIs were and did declare themselves to be socialist. Rarely mentioned is the point Hitler himself declared there to be no difference between National Socialism and Communism.

Would someone who thinks they are a truly liberal thinker and fair expositor of TRUTH like to add the missing data?

Thank you.Aaaronsmith (talk) 19:02, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Well i know that but you require a source which discuss`s it mark nutley (talk) 19:12, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

So all that Brownshirt violence against the communist party was just a love fest was it? --Snowded ^TALK 20:39, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Nope, just two ideology's slugging it out, but there is bugger all difference between them is there? Well apart from the body count i suppose mark nutley (talk) 20:44, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

The explanation I got long ago was the brownshirt vs communists thing was really Hitler and Stalin fighting over who was going to get credit for making communism the world order and thereby get to milk the peasants. Remember Hollywood, the western press, and the western intelligentsia of pre WWII were so in love w BOTH NAZIs and the communists they had to argue about which was better. As we were fighting in Europe there were movements in the US claiming we were fighting on the wrong side (Hollywood, the press, and everyone else w half a brain, shut up when the death camps were discovered).Aaaronsmith (talk) 20:38, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Keep it WP:CIVIL and on topic.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
mark nutley, if you had lived during the Weimar Republic, what party would you have supported? I already know, but would like to hear from you. TFD (talk) 02:24, 5 October 2010 (UTC) You know sweet FA about me, and i doubt you ever will. Comment on content not editors, thanks mark nutley (talk) 07:20, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

POV tag

I noticed that the POV tag was removed although most editors agreed that this article is biased and I restored it. However User:Darkstar1st has removed it. Could Darkstar1st please explain why he has done this. TFD (talk) 03:08, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I think he just failed to notice Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved. in the tag message. (Igny (talk) 04:09, 3 October 2010 (UTC))

That said we do need to try and resolve it. The issue was also discussed before, and its the argument about whether mass killings is an essential feature of communism, or something that takes place there. Its also an issue of balance. Mass deaths that arise from capitalism (Irish Famine etc.) as a result of things it doesn't do but that does not absolve guilt. Military Juntas often right wing have also been responsible for many deaths. Personally I think the article should go, with any relevant material appearing elsewhere. Another option is to have a Mass killings under political regimes article listing the ideology of the regimes. --Snowded ^TALK 06:21, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the article should go, with the content integrated into the appropriate articles (i.e. killings under Stalin go in Stalin article, under Mao with Mao, etc.). -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 07:33, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

There is consensus shown in the last two AfD nominations that this article will be kept on Wikipedia. Discussion of POV in the article must therefore be focused on how to bring the article in line with a neutral point of view. Dismissing the article as irreparably POV is not constructive and does not justify keeping the POV tag. The template usage notes for the tag makes this point explicitly. I'll copy them here for everyone's convenience:

I would love to actually have a productive discussion of specific POV issues in the body of the article or the title of the article. But refusing to engage in such discussion does not mean that the POV tag should stay indefinitely as a "badge of shame" for the article. AmateurEditor (talk) 01:07, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you could provide us with an article or book published by a university or academic press that discusses the topic which we could use as a model for the article. TFD (talk) 01:35, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I could. But, since that was one of the first things done for the article, I have a better idea: why don't you specify exactly what you believe is biased in the article so that we can discuss it. AmateurEditor (talk) 02:01, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

The SYNTH issue with the single society case study sections, which don't speak to Communism in general, but to the CP PRC, CP USSR, the unique Kampuchean party mentality. The sections on academic debate need to be rewritten. Last time I was here and read Valentino he only mentioned specifically communist causes for mass killing as a separate category in one text, in the other it was an example of his type "dispossessive mass killing". There's also a great deal of SYNTH/OR from inappropriately terse and biased explanations of academic's positions in a very confused literature, past editors had the habit of deep text searching for any mention of communist rather than actually reading sources. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:34, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Please point to something specific within the article, all you have done above is make vague suggestions about all manner of things mark nutley (talk) 11:12, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

For one, "Theories, such as those of R. J. Rummel, that propose communism as a significant causative factor in mass killings have attracted scholarly dispute;[21] this article does not discuss academic acceptance of such theories." Fifelfoo (talk) 13:45, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Is it meant to? mark nutley (talk) 13:57, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Fifelfoo, I don't understand how the sections on individual countries is synthesis. Both Valentino's "Communist Mass Killing" chapter and the Karlsson/Schoenhals research review (and the Black Book of Communism) have country-specific sections. If you want to use the Valentino and Karlsson sources as the primary sources for this article, as you indicated below, then wouldn't we have these sections anyway? Any "biased explanations of academic's positions" that you have identified in the article should definitely be fixed. I am not aware of any, but I haven't checked each citation. AmateurEditor (talk) 23:33, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

All POVs that can be documented in reliable sources and are not fringe should be represented. If your favorite POV is not represented - please add it, with proper citations. If you think that there are WP:Fringe POVs in here or that there is WP:SYNTH please take those discussions to the proper places, e.g. Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard and Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard Smallbones (talk) 21:46, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Per the template usage notes I posted above, the editor who added the NPOV tag to the article is obligated to discuss what in the article violates NPOV. AmateurEditor (talk) 21:07, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I asked him to per the probation on this page [3], he has not bothered to. I suppose we need to bring it to enforcement? mark nutley (talk) 21:12, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I probably can explain. The article is written in completely wrong way. Concretely, it creates an impression that mass killings are immanent to Communism, although there are some exceptions, although in actuality the real state of things was reverse. It should not start with generalisations, because these generalisations are not supported by majority scholars, but, by contrast, it should list the most clear examples (Great Purge, Cultural revolution, Pol Pot), and then add that some scholars proposed theories that draw general connections between Communism and mass killings, add other mass mortality cases (famines etc) to this category, etc.

The really neutral article has to discuss not Communist mass killings, but Communism and mass killings, including those mass killings that were specific to Communism (land reforms, etc), mass killings that were specific to some particular Communist regime (Stalin's and Mao's political repressions), mass killings that were not specific to Communism (during anti-partisan warfare, civil wars), and mass killings that were prevented by Communists.

In addition, it is needed to move general definitions etc., discussion of genocide, democide etc to the mass killing article. Until all of that is done the tag cannot be removed.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:02, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Paul, I don't really know how to respond to impressions that the article creates. They are sometimes, after all, in the eye of the beholder. The article should definitely not imply things that are not attributable to citations. If there are specific sentences which do this, they should be copied here so they can be examined. The problems you see with the title and the structure of the article itself are trickier. I have mixed feelings about "Communism and mass killing" as a title. If it would end the arguments here, I think it would be worth using. However, I seriously doubt that would be the result, and your suggestion of including "mass killings that were prevented by Communists" speaks to this. I don't believe that any of the sources currently used in the article include that, so it might be original research unless there are other sources you have in mind which do include it. As for the order that the different sections appear in the article, I don't really have an opinion on that. The terminology section only includes terms used specifically about Communist mass killing, so I think they need to stay in the article. AmateurEditor (talk) 23:33, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

The article is POV because it implies that there is a connection between "Communists regimes" and "mass killings" without explaining who made the connection and how widespread that view is. Also, unless there is a consensus that such a connection exists, it is wrong to provide details of individual killings without explaining how they relate to the topic. Incidentally, the editor placing this template should promptly begin a discussion, which I have done. TFD (talk) 22:01, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

TFD, the connection between "Communist regimes" and "mass killings" is that, according to reliable sources, mass killings occurred under Communist regimes. That's not a point of view. That the "connection" exists is shown by the numerous sources which have been presented for this article (several of which I extensively quoted for you and others in the last two AfDs). I don't understand your sentence "Also, unless there is a consensus that such a connection exists, it is wrong to provide details of individual killings without explaining how they relate to the topic." Here's why: the "connection" is not disputed in any sources that anyone has presented (and even exists in the Holocaust/Communist-killing-comparison sources that you recently provided); what is there to explain about how individual mass killings under communist regimes relate to "Mass killings under Communist regimes"? AmateurEditor (talk) 23:33, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

In addition to what Paul and TFD said above. Here is my view. Consider an example of POV wording in the paragraph on Valentino's book

He applies this definition to the cases of Stalin's USSR, the PRC under Mao, and Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, while admitting that mass killings on a smaller scale also appear to have been carried out by regimes in North Korea, Vietnam, Eastern Europe, and Africa.

It is presented as if Valentino came up with the term "mass killings" in order to specifically deal with the communist states. Even the link in the reference uses the phrase "Communist Mass Killings: The Soviet Union, China, and Cambodia" taken out of context of the book "Final solutions: mass killing and genocide in the twentieth century". Clearly someone did great job by filtering "communist cases" out of the much broader picture of "mass killings of the 20th century". As it is written, the article can and should be renamed into "mass killings under totalitarian regimes", the current content trimmed into a section there, with a subsection on theories connecting communism and totalitarianism, other mass killings should be discussed for broader picture and wider context.

Please do not tell me that it can not be done. I surely can do that, and so can any one of you. So until that or some other solution to the POV presentation of the theories in this article is implemented, the POV tag stays. (Igny (talk) 00:12, 6 October 2010 (UTC))

Correct. One more example of this filtering. The second para of the page 91 of the Valentino's "Final solution", the same page the words about the Soviet Union, China and Cambodia were taken from, starts with the words:

"Communism has a bloody record, but most regimes that described themselves as Communist or been described as such by others have not engaged in mass killings"

In other words, Valentino explicitly warns against generalisations. I pointed at these words many times, and these my words have been repeatedly ignored. Once again, we either expand the article's scope to bring it with accordance with what the sources say (followed by the article's renaming), or we narrow the article's scope to include only obvious and non-controversial cases. Note, the article started as an article about Cambodian genocide, and that was quite justified.--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:44, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Igny, the sentence you quote about Valentino is 100% accurate to the source. If you believe it conveys a misleading impression about his term being only applicable to Communist states, then why don't we solve that by making the sentence begin "In the cases of Communist mass killing, he applies this definition to ..." which would then imply there are also non-Communist cases. The chapter title used in the Valentino citation is not out of context. The citation format permits the chapter title. Notice that other citations also include chapter titles. The person who "did great job by filtering 'communist cases' out of the much broader picture" was Valentino himself. Also, "Mass killings under totalitarian regimes" is not supported by these sources or by the article as written while "Mass killings under Communist regimes" is.

Paul, if you want to include that quote from Valentino in the article please do so (I think it would fit well at the beginning of the "Others" section). But "Communism has a bloody record..." is in fact a generalization by Valentino. And the article did not start as an article about the Cambodian Genocide, as can be seen here. AmateurEditor (talk) 23:33, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Re AE In the cases of Communist mass killing, I am sorry but Valentino never defined what "Communist mass killing" really are thus your suggestion only adds to POV interpretation of the source. And are you really arguing against mass killings under totalitarian regimes and yet for "Communist mass killings" in the same sentence? (Igny (talk) 03:03, 12 October 2010 (UTC))

Valentino carefully defines "mass killing". "Communist mass killing" is simply mass killing by communist regimes. Obviously. From page 4 of his book: "First, mass killing can be an attractive strategy for regimes seeking to achieve the radical communization of their societies. Indeed, communist regimes probably have been responsible for the most violent mass killings in human history..." There is nothing ambiguous about that, Igny. And yes, I am really arguing against "Mass killings under totalitarian regimes" and for "Communist mass killings" at the same time. Because that is what the sources justify. Valentino deliberately did not title his chapter "Totalitarian mass killings" (because he didn't mean that). AmateurEditor (talk) 22:55, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that it was Valentino himself. His book is about mass killings in general, not about Communist mass killings. Yes, he developed a "deprivation mass killing" concept, which allowed him to include famines and similar mass mortality events, which are not considered mass killings by majority scholars, into the mass killing category. However, he did not separate Communist mass killings into a separate category, he just discusses some specific features of mass killings (as a general phenomenon) in Communist states. Re the quote, I presented it here just as a concrete example of the "great filtering job" described by Igny. I doubt by inclusion of these words we will fix the issue in general.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:35, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Paul, yes, Valentino's book is about mass killing in general. But he does filter out Communist mass killings as a separate category, and not just in the "Communist mass killing" chapter. On pages 73-75 he describes the motivations, the necessary conditions, and includes a table of cases of Communist mass killing. I don't think Valentino differs from any other scholar that a deliberately worsened famine with the intention to kill would be mass killing. The differences between him and other scholars would be about whether the effects of such a famine were deliberate or not to begin with. AmateurEditor (talk) 23:34, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

What I read above as justification for having the POV tag is that you do not like the content of the article - but that is not sufficient cause to use the POV tag. WP:NPOV is about including all POVs that can be documented in reliable sources. What POV has not been included? Please identify it, and if you can document it - include it in the article. If you fail to include it in the article, it is your own fault. Nobody has been deleting the viewpoints that are more sympathetic to the Communists, rather there has been systematic deletion of viewpoints that say "This was a terrible crime." Smallbones (talk) 01:07, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Please, read the above posts carefully. The problem is not with inclusion or exclusion of some POVs but with the very article's concept. In addition, I cannot understand why the Synth tag has been removed. IMO, Igny and I gave good examples of selective filtering of the sources that is prohibited per WP policyas synthesis.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:13, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

The article is POV because it implies that there is a connection between "Communists regimes" and "mass killings" without explaining who made the connection and how widespread that view is. Also, unless there is academic consensus that such a connection exists, it is wrong to provide details of individual killings without explaining how they relate to the topic. TFD (talk) 01:13, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

If as PS says "The problem is not with inclusion or exclusion of some POVs but with the very article's concept," then the POV tag should not be used, rather, take it again to AFD, where you can expect to get the same result as the last 6 AFDs - the article stays. TFDs comment is also unrelated to the use of the POV tag and simply wrong: The article lists several people (in reliable sources) who make a connection between "Communists regimes" and "mass killings." I conclude that there are no excluded POVs that folks want to add, and that the POV tag should be removed. Smallbones (talk) 03:19, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

None of the sources that draw the connection are mainstream opinions and therefore there are no mainstream views to balance them with. The article is POV because the article implies that there is a consensus accepting these views. If you disagree could you please provide an article in a peer-reviewed article or in a book published by an academic publishing house that shows there is a consensus that any connection exists. TFD (talk) 04:22, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Why don`t you provide one which says no such consensus exists? Or that the sources currently used are not mainstream? There is noting in policy which says a peer reviewed source is needed for such any reliable source will do the job mark nutley (talk) 10:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Re "Why don`t you provide one which says no such consensus exists?" Per WP:BURDEN--Paul Siebert (talk) 12:28, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

No paul, you are the ones saying no such consensus exists, so prove it per WP:BURDEN thanks mark nutley (talk) 13:52, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

TFD states that "there are no mainstream views" in the article. Frankly I think this is nonsense: there are just no mainstream views that he agrees with. In any case please add what you think the mainstream views are, as long as they are found in reliable sources. TFD and PS imply that only consensus views are acceptable in the article - but this is exactly the opposite of WP:NPOV which says that all non-fringe POVs found in reliable sources should be included. I suppose the next argument that somebody will put up is that the Black Book of Communism (published by Harvard University Press), etc., etc. etc. are fringe. This has been argued many times before and found to be false. Smallbones (talk) 13:17, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

So you've read the Black Book? You'd be aware like I am that the chapters are all single society case studies, except for the introduction and conclusion, where Courtois advances a thesis that bad things happened in the Soviet Union, and also (for two to three short paragraphs) in China and Vietnam because of an absence of Godliness in communist thought (he advances this view in the last four paragraphs of the introduction). The chapters in the Black Book are of the expected quality of academic work, and Courtois' writing is unremarkable either way, but he does not present a thesis that Communism in general is in anyway a causative factor, or that the selection of included chapters advances a general thesis. This does not compare well to Valentino's general theory of causes of mass-killing in his monograph, for example. Milovan Djilas' general theory of the sociology of Communist elites is more credible as an explanation for why bad things happen in some states, but not in others. Fifelfoo (talk) 13:34, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Smallbones, I did not say there are no mainstream views "in the article", but that there are none to balance the fringe theory promoted by the article. I did not say only consensus views are acceptable, but that the article should not imply there is a consensus for a theory when none exists. Could you please not misrepresent what I have written. And yes the intro to the Black Book is fringe and has received no academic acceptance. TFD (talk) 13:48, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Please provide a reliable source which says the views (letting us know which ones would be nice btw) are fringe, thanks mark nutley (talk)

mark nutley, fringe just means that it has received no academic acceptance. Asking for a source is like asking for a source that someone is not famous. The onus is on you to show that the view has academic acceptance. TFD (talk) 14:18, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

No not at all, you need to prove this is in fact a fringe theory. Also it matters not if it has academic acceptance, there is no policy which says a wiki article has to have such mark nutley (talk) 14:38, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Per WP:BURDEN we do not need that. By contrast, you have to prove it is not a fringe theory.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:33, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I see sweet FA in WP:Burden which says i have to prove anything, you guys keep saying this is fringe, so give me a source which backs your assertion. Just becasue you say it is fringe does not make it so mark nutley (talk) 23:34, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

No, you must support all edits you wish to make. By the way, could you please avoid colloquialisms, especially semi-obscene ones, that lower the tone of discussion. TFD (talk) 23:54, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I do support all the edits i make, this is the third time you have commented on my writing style, quit it. mark nutley (talk) 00:03, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually MarkNutley, you do not properly support all of the edits you make. This is why you are about to be banned or otherwise sanctioned by ArbCom for not properly supporting the edits you make, amongst other forms of disruptive behavior. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 00:06, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually your wrong, perhaps you ought to read the PD correctly. This also has noting to do with this article so kindly comment on content not me, thanks mark nutley (talk) 00:22, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

You were commenting on yourself, and I was responding to your comments. If you want people talking about content instead of you, then don't start conversations about yourself instead of content. And it has everything to do with this article, because you are continuing the same type of behavior here and in other places. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 00:30, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Nothing in the above is about any material or any POV that anybody wants to ADD to the article. Unless somebody comes up with something to ADD then we need to take off the POV tag. Smallbones (talk) 03:53, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

The article currently represents a fringe point of view that is different from what rational people would write. We must change it so that it is no longer a conspiracy theory-type propaganda article. TFD (talk) 04:06, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

The article currently represents widely held opinions and facts concerning killings under communist regimes. (The original post prior to this referred to the view as "crackpoint", and that "rational people" could not support it, hence this post)Collect (talk) 10:14, 11 October 2010 (UTC) Collect (talk) 12:26, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I suppose the point needs to be endlessly repeated, so -- one more time. The view that is fringe is not that communists have done bad things. The view that is fringe is that communists should be singled out for doing bad things. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:38, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

How are they being singled out? Nazi Party o no, looks like were also singling out Nazi`s. They are not being singled out, they stand out on a big pile if bodies which people kinda noticed. The article is due to be unlocked tomorrow and i have yet to see an actual piece of content pointed out which is POV mark (talk) 13:43, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

We do not have an article that groups the Nazi party with unrelated parties in other continents and call it "mass killings under [insert category here] regimes". TFD (talk) 13:52, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, we do. Anti-communist mass killings. An article you are well familiar with. Collect (talk) 14:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Incorrect. This article groups the events according to a very concrete trait: the victims were Communists. And it neither groups the Nazi party with other partices nor provides any theoretical basis for the events: the victims were Communists, they were being killed in different countries, and the article just tells who was killing them. Are any facts presented in that article incorrect?--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:19, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

It has sections for Nazis and other unrelated parties by country - lumped together for killing communists and others (note the Holocaust section is not only about Communists). This article has far less OR than that one has. Collect (talk) 14:31, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

See Talk:Anti-communist mass killings#Original research: "While this article lists acts of mass killings against communists, it lacks a properly sourced lead that is referenced to reliable sources defining a concept for anti-communist mass killings. Are there any reliable sources that describe this concept? The Four Deuces (talk) 05:36, 16 September 2009 (UTC)" Notice also the tags for POV and SYN. If those are your standards then your standards are unacceptable. We should let the literature guide how articles are written rather than begin with fringe conspiracy theories and data-mine for quotes that seem to support them. TFD (talk) 14:50, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

And again there is no fringe conspiracy theories here. Do you deny that communist regimes committed acts of mass killings, yes or no mark (talk) 14:55, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

"Truth is not the criteria for inclusion of any idea or statement in a Wikipedia article, even if it is on a scientific topic (see Wikipedia:Science). The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. This is important to bear in mind when writing about topics on which you as a contributor have a strong opinion; you might think that it is a great place to set the record straight and Right Great Wrongs, but that’s not the case. We can record the righting of great wrongs, but we can’t ride the crest of the wave. We cannot be the correctors and educators of the world. You might wish to start a blog or visit a forum if you want to convince people of the merits of your favorite views. See Wikipedia is not a soapbox."[4] TFD (talk) 15:17, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

It`s funny how you guys never give a straight answer. But yes wp:v and as all the sources in the article meet wp:v what are you complaining about? Communists committed mass killings hence an article about it, simple really mark (talk) 15:21, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

No it is not funny. This is not a blog, and our personal views should not influence our actions. You however continually demand that fringe views be given prominence well beyond their importance and try to engage other editors in political discussions. TFD (talk) 15:54, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Your right it`s not funny that you guys never give a straight answer. I am not demanding anything, just point out in this article within policy what you think is POV, it would be a real help. cheers mark (talk) 16:05, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

As I pointed out, editors' opinions on various topics should play no role in how they edit material. In your case however, you make your views quite obvious. Unfortunately they do no coincide with mainstream thought on any topics. I have already explained why the article is POV: "The article is POV because it implies that there is a connection between "Communists regimes" and "mass killings" without explaining who made the connection and how widespread that view is. Also, unless there is a consensus that such a connection exists, it is wrong to provide details of individual killings without explaining how they relate to the topic. Incidentally, the editor placing this template should promptly begin a discussion, which I have done. TFD (talk) 22:01, 5 October 2010 (UTC)" TFD (talk) 18:08, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

The article implies nothing at all. Communist regimes commit mass killing, this is a fact. If you think it ought to be explained who made the connection between this regime type and mass killing it would be everyone as everyone knows communist regimes committed mass killing. There is no need to prove a consensus exists as everyone knows communist regimes committed butchery on a massive scale, that would be your consensus. You say that i make your views quite obvious. Unfortunately they do no coincide with mainstream thought on any topics well right back at you buddy. Your views are very obvious. And they most certainly do not match up to what the rest of the world thinks at all. If you have sources which do what you want present them mark (talk) 19:15, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

You are saying that the connection is so obvious that we do not need any sources that make the connection. Please understand that Wikipedia articles require sources not intuition, or fringe sources. TFD (talk) 19:35, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Plenty of sources which meet wp:rs have been given plenty of times, please present yours which state otherwise from them mark (talk) 19:50, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

If you remember I presented a number of sources that explained that these theories developed from an earlier interpretation of the French revolution and were popular with fringe elements including anti-Semites and the French far right and other irrational groups outside the mainstream. However you have provided no sources supporting your views at all, just a series of arguments that are unacceptable for Wikipedia and seem to follow a unique inner logic that other editors may find difficult to follow. TFD (talk) 19:59, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually i recall no such sources, i do recall someone (thought it was paul) writing about jewish greed. As for sources, you know full well plenty have been given, and there are plenty more in the article, every source in the article is reliable mark (talk) 20:06, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

"The debate over the comparison of Communism and Nazism re-emerged in France in the 1990s, popularized by Francois Furet's The passing of an illusion (1995) and the Black Book of Communism (1997). The comparison became popular with the far right, who now claimed that Communism killed more than Nazism. The "genocide of a class" was seen as the moral equivalent of the "genocide of a race".[Stalinism and nazism: history and memory compared (2004) Henry Rousso, Richard Joseph Golsan, pp. xi-xv] This new thinking, which is especially popular in Ukraine, Poland and the Baltic states, where Communism is associated with Jewry, has been to diminish the significance of the Holocaust, with the Holodomor presented as a crime of equal magnitude. This reasoning has been described as a new form of anti-semitism.["Anti-Semitism in Europe, 1914 - 2004" (2006) Jan Herman Brinks, pp. 17-18)]" And no you have not provided any sources. TFD (talk) 20:41, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Argument by assertion fails. Many cites have been given for the current article, meeting WP:RS. And "wall of text" iterations otherwise do not impress. Collect (talk) 20:43, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Source after source after source, all the sources in the article, and here`s another [5] really i`m fed up of this, it`s just stupid. There is no justification for the tag other than i don`t want bad stuff said about communists mark (talk) 20:48, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

The book explains how to the far right, "The terms "Jew" and "Communist" were virtually interchangeable" (p. 206) and that they feared "the Judaeo-Communist conspiracy" (p. 127). TFD (talk) 21:10, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

That page is not available to me but so what. Page 315 other sources to be found in communist idealogy and behaviour are for more relevent There you have the source which links ideology (along with Rummel and a host of others of course) with communism, case closed mark (talk) 21:18, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Of course, not. Some sources do link, whereas others provide alternative explanations. The article's structure is build based only on the formers, hence the neutrality tag. --Paul Siebert (talk) 21:39, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

In order to write a neutral article, one must explain the connection between mass killings and communist regimes, who has made that connection and how notable those views are. If you believe this source answers that then please write a neutral lead and "close the case". TFD (talk) 21:40, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Another proof by iteration? As long as the article lives up to its precise title, there is nothing to carp about. The article is fully sourced to RS sources, and that is how WP works. I suggest you fix Anti-communist mass killings first. Collect (talk) 22:07, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

As I already pointed out, WP:V is irrelevant as soon as WP:NPOV or WP:NOR issues are discussed.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:23, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

@ Paul others provide alternative explanations wp:sofixit add these other sources to the article, your not adding sources in is not a valid reason for a POV tag. @ TFD one must explain the connection between mass killings and communist regimes, who has made that connection and how notable those views are no for that is not what we do, we use what the sources say. Like i said case closed. Once the unlock is gone we can remove the POV tag as paul has sources which he can add and TFD`s argument is not a reason for a POV tag as once again wp:sofixit mark (talk) 22:31, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Exactly - Paul has been the first to claim that something is missing from the article " 'Some sources do link, whereas others provide alternative explanations. The article's structure is build based only on the formers." So, please, Paul add reliably sourced material that claims there is no link between the various Communist mass killings. Otherwise you are just blowing hot air. I'll remove the POV tag as soon as possible, and take it up at WP:NPOVN if it is added back again. Smallbones (talk) 00:29, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

There is no consensus to remove the tag. Please get the consensus first before making such controversial edits. (Igny (talk) 02:53, 12 October 2010 (UTC))

As long as each source is reliable and used correctly, this is all meaningless argumentation for the sake of argumentation, a la Monty OPython. The article uses material dfrom reliable sources and does not make original research thereon. Which is what WP articles are, in fact, supposed to do. Arguning that this article does not do what it is not supposed to do is weird. Collect (talk) 00:34, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, this all is meaningless as long as reliable sources are used correctly. However, the major argument is that they are not.

In addition to the filtering of the reliable sources (the examples of that have been provided), another issue exist that is more general and cannot be fixed by just adding more sources. The problem is that the article is build as if the scholars' opinion about these mass killing occurs are aligned along the axis "acceptance - rejection of commonaliy". However, that is simply not the case. There are tons of historical works that simply ignore ideology as a factor affecting the onset of some concrete mass killings under Communist regimes. For instance, Jonathan Haslam in his comprehensive article (Political Opposition to Stalin and the Origins of the Terror in Russia, 1932-1936. Author(s): Jonathan Haslam Source: The Historical Journal, Vol. 29, No. 2 (Jun., 1986), pp. 395-418) gives several explanations for the onset of the Great Purge, and none of them has a connection to Marxism. According to Haslam, the cause of the Great Purge was a struggle between different fractions of the Communist leadership over some very concrete issues, in particular, over the Stalin's emphasis upon heavy instead of light industry and the lack of food supplies (which had lead to great famine in 1932-33). Among other issues was, for example, the opposition to the Stalin's foreign policy, including Soviet membership in the League of Nation and de facto conversion of the USSR a guardian of the postwar status quo, a guardian of the iniquitous Versailles settlement.

Haslam draws a complex and detailed picture of political struggle between different Soviet leaders, which eventually lead to the Great Purge, and there is simply no room there for superficial considerations about inherent malignance of the Communist ideology. Like Laplace, he simply has had no need of that hypothesis.

Of course, this Haslam's article is just a one example of good scholarships which simply ignore the commonality issue. In connection to that, I insist that the article's whole structure should be changed and that all general theorisings should be moved to the end, and placed into a separate section named "Views of some scholars on ....".--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:51, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Paul you do not get to insist on anything that is not how wikipedia works. mark (talk) 07:26, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes. However, this your general notion has no relation to my last post, because that is how wikipedia works.--Paul Siebert (talk) 11:06, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

It had evry relation to your last post paul, given you said I insist that the article's whole structure should be changed so your response made no sense at all to me sorry mark (talk) 11:29, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Wrong. I insist on that because the article in its present form pushed just one POV, which is not acceptable per WP policy.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:18, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Section Break

And has been pointed out several times, add your sources. You cannot hold this article hostage because you have not added sources nor like the way it`s laid out. The article does not push a point of view at all, it is all reliably sourced and we use what the sources say. Either add the content you say the article needs or don`t, this is your choice. The pov tag however can go as there is no justification for it at all mark (talk) 15:04, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I wrote a sourced, neutral lead supported by academic sources, and we use it to replace the current lead then it will go a long way to removing the POV issues with the article. TFD (talk) 15:09, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

So were is it? The most of the current lede was copy and pasted from this talk page and was written by another editor mark (talk) 15:19, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

"The debate over the comparison of Communism and Nazism re-emerged in France in the 1990s, popularized by Francois Furet's The passing of an illusion (1995) and the Black Book of Communism (1997). The comparison became popular with the far right, who now claimed that Communism killed more than Nazism. The "genocide of a class" was seen as the moral equivalent of the "genocide of a race".[Stalinism and nazism: history and memory compared (2004) Henry Rousso, Richard Joseph Golsan, pp. xi-xv] This new thinking, which is especially popular in Ukraine, Poland and the Baltic states, where Communism is associated with Jewry, has been to diminish the significance of the Holocaust, with the Holodomor presented as a crime of equal magnitude. This reasoning has been described as a new form of anti-semitism.["Anti-Semitism in Europe, 1914 - 2004" (2006) Jan Herman Brinks, pp. 17-18)]" TFD (talk) 16:37, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

A yes i recall now, if i also recall my response was "Your joking right?" Your saying the entire concept of communist mass killings is down to the far right? How fringe is that. Is Rummel far right? or Manus I. Midlarsky? The idea that communism committed mass killings is not a right wing conspiracy mark (talk) 16:47, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

While there are numerous sources describing mass killings in various countries, including Communist ruled countries, the concept of "mass killings under Communist regimes" exists only in fringe sources that are popular with the far right and have been ignored by mainstream scholarship. TFD (talk) 16:56, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Really? Valentino Communist regimes have been responsible for this century's most deadly episodes of mass killing Stanley G. Payne A history of fascism, 1914-1945 page 411 Martin Shaw War and genocide: organized killing in modern society page 115 Paul Gottfried The strange death of Marxism: the European left in the new millennium page 4 Neal Riemer, Douglas Simon The New World of Politics: An Introduction to Political Science page 143 Constantine Christopher Menges China: the gathering threat chapter VIII are all these fringe sources then? Why not try a different tack, your WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT is getting WP:TEDIOUS mark (talk) 22:28, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Re "add your sources" I already explained that the existing article's structure makes it impossible. Please, re-read my post.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:02, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I have There are tons of historical works that simply ignore ideology as a factor affecting the onset of some concrete mass killings under Communist regimes is quite simply irrelevant, just because someone wrote a paper or a book but did not include ideology proves nothing other than they did not include it for reasons unknown. But there are sections within the article which point to causes other than ideology such as piss poor running of the country. What causes do these tons of historical works put forward? Why do you feel it is not possible to add these to already existing sections? mark (talk) 22:33, 12 October 2010 (UTC)