Talk:New York metropolitan area/Archive 1

Archive 1

Composition of the Metropolitan Area

Why is Orange County which is touching the NY/NJ border not included in the NY metropolitan area. It's immediately touching Passaic County NJ, which is part of it

BAMJ6 (offline)

It is part of the CSA, but it is not part of the MSA. It is in the Poughkeepsie-Newburgh-Middletown, NY Metropolitan Statistical Area (which is part of the CSA). The Census Bureau rules for which counties are in a given MSA and which are in a CSA are complex. There is a link in the article to the Census Bureau rules. TC 28 Apr 2006

Why are Westchester and Putnam counties listed as being part of NYC? They're just part of the metro area. The city is the five boroughs, and nothing else. I'm gonna change this if no one explains why this is the case soon. Night Gyr 20:25, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• I hope Night Gyr and others understand that this article refers not just to New York City, but to the larger economic and demographic phenomenon that has developed around it.--Pharos 07:03, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Westchester, Putnam, and Rockland Counties are part of New York's Primary Metropolitan Statistical Area (PMSA), in addition to the five boroughs, which is probably why they were listed under New York City. Darkcore 07:48, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Is it possible to speak about NY's PMSA in the article ? Exept NYC, Westchester, Putnam, Roackland and Nassau, is there any other county par of it ? (sorry, English isn't my mother tongue).
  • Yes, Suffolk; we should definitely put this in; plus some other stuff which seemms to have been oversimplified from the Census data.--Pharos 22:10, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The metro area includes them, of course. But they're listed as being part of the city itself (under new york, new york). I separated them out into the metro area, but someone moved them back. As a resident of the area, I think they belong separate. Night Gyr 13:35, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Metropolitan New York includes the 12 southern New York Counties, Connecticut west of the Connecticut River and south of a line from hartford to the western Connecticut border, and New Jersey northeast of the Deleware River and the line from Trenton to the Atlantic. The New Jersey area tends to ambiguous because it can be also included in the Metropolitan Philadelphia area. The City of Greater New York, which is the city's official name - includes only the Five Boroughs. New York City - the original New York City - is only Manhattan Island and its attendent small islands.

SSG Cornelius Seon (Retired) 22:51, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

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Ethnicity

Why is there not actual figures concerning the different ethnicities on New York?

Map

I'd sure like to see a map--JimWae 05:13, 2005 Mar 13 (UTC) Thanks for the map - there aren't 2 Ocean counties though, are there?--JimWae 02:42, 2005 Mar 16 (UTC)

The map wasn't easy to research and make in the first place, I wish there were two Ocean counties... but I've corrected the mistake; the small one next to Manhattan is Hudson County. Expect the image to cycle through the different revisions to this map I've sequentially uploaded for awhile. Somehow changes to an existing image seem to be quite slow on the uptake. BTW, as I noted in the edit summary, the information here isn't really organized according to the current Census system, which is a bit complicated. I'll try to update it later.--Pharos 03:15, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Distinction between CMSA, PMSA, urbanized area, metropolitan division for foreigners

Hi,

I don't really understand the difference between CMSA and PMSA, and the accuracy of the metropolitan division. In France, the distinction is between the "commune-centre" (center city, ie the 5 boroughs), "urbanized area", "metropolitan area" (areas where people commute to the urbanized area). Can somebody explain the link between American typology and this one ?

thanks 62.161.27.52

PS : Sorry for my grammar, I'm not a native English-Speaker.

Well, the U.S. Census system has changed in recent years; the distinction between the CSA and the MSA is new, and actually everything beyond the intro and the picture and caption in this article is basically out of date. The PMSA and CMSA, for example, are obsolete. The five boroughs are a legal entity, a city governed by one mayor and city council. There are also other cities, and towns etc. in the area. The other areas defined here are not legal but statistical. The MSA I guess might be called the broad "urbanized area", while the CSA is based directly on commuting patterns. The Metropolitan Divisions are statistical sub-areas of the MSA.

All of this is just the situation around New York City, many MSAs for example are just one county. There is also the new idea of the "micropolitan area" for smaller cities.--Pharos 17:34, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If I understand what you mean, there is a continuous urbanisation from Battery Park to Putnam, but not between the Queens and Nassau ? I'm not a New Yorker so I don't know, but it looks strange to me.

62.161.27.52 14:39 (GMT)

Well its all pretty continuously urbanized; there is a lot of continuity between Queens and Nassau. The census definition is not something really obvious on the ground and has to be understood I think as at least partly a series of compromises.--Pharos 20:35, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

These census divisions are somewhat arbitrary, being rather coarsely defined by county lines. There is no governmental unit associated with the area; it is just a way for the census to keep track of stuff. --SPUI (talk) 02:11, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

DANGER! DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!

Long Island part of any metropolitan area?? Am I missing something? LI is part of the tri-state area, true, but it's one of the most urban-phobic areas of the region, there is literally NO urban development, not one formal city in the entire 2 county region, at least upstate has a few scatered "cities", however LI is 100% anti-metropolitan, so why are they on the list? -- anon

People on LI may not like to believe themselves part of the metro area, but the entire island is less than a 2 hour, straight-shot trip to NYC. Also, although there are no "formal cities," you can hardly call an area as small as LI with a population so large "undeveloped." And anyway, this is more a census designation than anything else.

I don't know how old this comment is, but I'll respond to it anyway. Long Island is most certainly a part of the NYC metro area, if only because a large portion of the LI population commutes into NYC to work each day; there's a reason the Long Island Expressway is a notoriously trafficked highway. In any case, having been to Long Island many times (I live in Bergen County, NJ), I must dispute the claim that Long Island is anti-urban as the vast majority of Nassau County and quite a bit of Suffolk County is, in my book, heavily developed. Note that heavily developed does not mean skyscrapers, it only means that most of the land is covered with human settlement. - Cuivienen 23:10, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I Agree with Cuivienen above

Glen Cove is a "formal city" on Long Island. Long Beach is another "formal city" in Nassau County (although it is on Long Beach Island - a barrier island of Long Island). And of course the two most populous boroughs of the largest city in the United States are on Long Island. 02:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)TC

Clean this up

A lot of the prose in this article is really mangled and it just generally is not well written (particularly the last section.) Apollo58 23:37, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree, and I am going to try to do some of it, but I do not have time right now (nor will I soon). The article is also horrible with commas/semi-colons (ex: Bergen Co, NJ, Westchester Co, NY, ... (spelled out, just abbreviated for my sake right now), where the ones after NJ/NY should be semi-colons instead). //MrD9 09:20, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Commuter Rail

The extent of many metropolitan areas is often defined by commuting patterns, which is probably true for the New York metropolitan area as well. I think it would be appropriate to at least list the different commuter rail lines that serve New York City, which would help people understand why certain areas are part of this region. I am not very familiar with the various rail lines so I hope someone with more knowledge can put this in. 15:32, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I always thought that Metro North was the 2nd largest commuter rail in the country. Could we have some citations regarding Metro North and NJ Transit being the 3rd and 4th largest commuter rail networks in the country? --Herr Ratselhaft 00:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia contradicts itself??

This article states that the New York Metropolitan Area is “one of the largest metropolitan areas in the world as well. (Ranked second after Greater Tokyo Area in Japan)” However, in this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megacity it is clearly 4th. If by “Largest” the author means most populous, then wikipedia contradicts itself. I believe it this is the case, as largests is implied in the paragraph as most poplous:

“The total population of the New York Metropolitan Area is 21,923,089 (CSA as of 2005) over a land area of 11,847 square miles (30,684 square kilometers). It is the single largest metropolitan area in the United States and has grown generally quickly in recent times, growing 9.4% since the 1990 census (the area actually shrunk in population during the 1970's and barely grew during the 1980's). It is one of the largest metropolitan areas in the world as well. (Ranked second after Greater Tokyo Area in Japan).”

Consistency in the city population field is unattainable and wikipedia shouldn't mislead people into thinking it is. What matters is that ever list should come with very prominent disclaimers and a set of links to alternative lists, which the megacity list doesn't. Piccadilly 09:08, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality of Local politics section

First, the following quote seems to contradict itself and present a bias:

Individual politics in the New York Metropolitan area vary greatly, but coexisting in such a huge population of many diverse cultures and backgrounds requires a large amount of tolerance for differing worldviews. As a result, the residents of the Tri-state area are traditionally very liberal.

At the very least, Long Island is a traditionally Republican area. In addition, the reasoning seems to be incorrect, as New Jersey is one of the most segregated states in the nation. (See http://www.njfuture.org/index.cfm?ctn=9t45e1o30v9g&emn=5u92y86g2h42&fuseaction=user.xcontent&XContent=3_14_1 ) Galaxydog2000 00:13, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

First, all of Long Island was blue in 2004 (based on a county map of course). New Jersey also traditionally leans Democratic. That it is supposedly "segregated" has nothing to do with the fact that they elect Democrats. So I question your reasoning there. I also think that the inclusion of the fact that a diverse and generally peaceful population results in liberal regional traditions is relevant and un-biased.

Second, Fairfield County, CT and Westchester County, NY are "just outside of Manhattan"?? I think not! Hudson and Bergen Counties (NJ) are the only counties (excluding boroughs) that border Manhattan. I deleted that sentence. --Laikalynx 02:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I also think that the inclusion of the fact that a diverse and generally peaceful population results in liberal regional traditions is relevant and un-biased.

Well, it is obviously biased. Does that mean that a sectarian and aggressive population results in conservative regional politics ? That's what we call a liberal point of view. But wikipedia shall be NPOV. --Revas 11:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Long Island used to be rebublican but than they relised that they were all the children of new yorkers so they started voting domocratic

Politics is always a hard topic. I just came in with an axe and edited the section. I have no dog in this fight, as they say, living well outside NYC, and can therefore be somewhat dispassionate though I do read a bit  :) I suggest stop commenting on the future or the present. Wikipedia doesn't predict the future. This is critical for politics sections. We really don't know what voters are thinking today despite numerous polls which purport to tell us what we are thinking. We can report the past with some confidence. NYC has voted mostly Democrat in the past.

I chopped a lot of sentences that didn't seem to be going anyplace. This is factual reporting not newspaper or blogging or a column. We shouldn't be trying to describe New Yorkers, just report what New Yorkers have done, usually at the voting booth. I also eliminated lots of adjectives automatically. Adjectives tend to work contrary to an unbiased section on politics, and should generally be ommitted elsewhere unless they are quotes from a highly scholarly source which is seldom available.

While I was content after viewing the clear-cut remains, it probably still needs a lot of work. I'm not sure all the paragraphs even belong here anymore. Education? Anyway, good luck. Student7 12:29, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I took out the flagged items uncited since July 2007, Flagged a bunch more as uncited, and removed a bunch of uncited opinions. The POV is now neutral, if VERY LIGHT on sources, and should probably just be removed in totality if it remains unsourced. Mikelieman 02:48, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Nothing's been cited, so I removed all the uncited material. Mikelieman (talk) 08:58, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

London

Not relevant enough to put in the article, but if you combine Greater London with the South East and East Regions of England, less the two most remote counties in the East Region (Norfolk and Suffolk), the area is about the same as that of the New York metropolitan area as defined in the article, and the population is about 19.5 million. That's closer than I would have thought. Piccadilly 09:11, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

So is Litchfield County, Connecticut in or not? It's not on the map.

It's mentioned in the article, but it's not on the map. Only New Haven and Fairfield are right now. Inconsistencies, ack! Please remedy! StarryEyes 04:39, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I noticed this, too, acutally, just now. And unlike NH and Fairfield counties, I have never hear of Litchfield... nor had I realized that Pike Co, PA, is part of the NY/NJ/CT metro... //MrD9 09:19, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

IT's the formal census definition, which differs from a lot of people's inuitive conceptions. Night Gyr 11:46, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Litchfield County is included mainly because of the Danbury area whose urban area spills into southern Litchfield County. Torrington itself is more often included in the Greater Hartford area. The total commuter precentage from Litchfield county into counties in the New York metropolitan area are probably larger than that into the Hartford metro area, which is why Litchfield county as a whole is included in the extended New York metropolitan area. Pike County is included because the urban area of Port Jervis extends into it. While most of Pike county is rural, more than half of its population resides in the urban part, which has strong commuter ties with the New York metropolitan area core counties. Polaron 14:08, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Makes perfect sense. My problem wasn't with the assertion, but with the inconsistency between the map and the definition. If someone could update that county map, it would be much appreciated. StarryEyes 14:25, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Same as StarryEyes. //MrD9 21:34, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

"Greater New York"

I got linked to this article from "Greater New York" in another entry. However, this article deals with the "New York metropolitan area" NOT specifically "Greater New York". BTW, "metropolitan area" is *not* supposed to be capitalized.

Anyway, "Greater New York" is a specific, official, name that resulted in the consolodation of the independent towns and cities (including what was just "New York City") in 1898 into the five boroughs. "Greater New York" was the offical name for what is commonaly now referred to as "New York City". I suggest an article deal specifically with that.

I think any such article should explain that and then move on. It may have been an official usage in 1898, but it is very out of date now. Nathcer 16:50, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I landed here looking for historic Greater New York (of 1898), and would prefer that since the usages seem so evenly balanced to me, the term should just lead to a disambiguation page (even though that's frowned upon when there are fewer than three terms). I tried to clarify with a disambiguation hatnote at the top of the page. —— Shakescene (talk) 11:44, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I bit the bullet (or was bold) and just changed Greater New York and Greater New York City from redirects to NY Metro area into disambiguation pages, since I got tired of not finding the 1898 City of Greater New York when I was trying to remember the exact words (now after fixing all the "What Links Here", of course, I'm very familiar with the correct phrases). It just seems to me that one is just about equally likely to use the phrase to distinguish the Five Boroughs (today's New York City) from Manhattan (pre-1898 NYC), as to distinguish the surrounding region from the City itself. These changes show no bias towards either possibility. —— Shakescene (talk) 13:09, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Litchfield redux

Is anyone ever going to add Litchfield County to the map? I'd do it myself but my Photoshop skills are deplorable. StarryEyes 21:41, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

• Litchfield County isn't part of the Census definition, hence it's not included on the map. (See 'Mea culpa' below) BTW, my photoshopping skills aren't too great either; I only used MS Paint to make the map :)--Pharos 22:51, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

redefinition

I've heard vaguely about a redefinition of the Census region for 2006, and someone just edited the article to change the number, but provided no source. I searched around on the census site but couldn't find anything. Anyone have any info on this? Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 02:56, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Nassau County is not a City

--J intela 03:52, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

• Suburbs are by definition part of some larger metropolitan area. Nassau County is not exactly a rustic isolate; demographically and economically, it's part of a larger complex.--Pharos 23:15, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
• Yes, Long Island is one of the most heavily urbanized places in the country. It's not about having tall buildings--it's about having a sizable percentage of the land devoted to human habitation, infrastructure, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.247.141.145 (talk) 18:32, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Which is bigger?

This article says NYC is behind Mexico City but when you click on Mexico City its population is listed as less. What's going on? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.206.165.7 (talk) 11:50, 15 January 2007 (UTC).

Mea culpa

Geez, I'm really sorry I screwed up on the map and have let it stand so long. I misread this CSA map [1] (PDF), not noting that the light areas are Micropolitan Areas inside of a CSA (Hudson County, NY is actually part of the Albany CSA, so don't worry about that). I was also unfamiliar with Torrington and assumed that as a little "micropolitan" area it was somehow conveniently tucked into either Fairfield or New Haven counties. In my lame defense, I will aver that the Litchfield advocates forgot to point to the actual Census data (perhaps they were unaware of it) to correct my mistake. I have now corrected the map, using a convenient copy of the base map I saved in originally creating it. Again, really sorry, Litchfielders.--Pharos 17:49, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Contradicts Greater Mexico City article

As editor 209.206.165.7 has already pointed out, the population listed in the Greater Mexico City article is slightly less than that of greater New York, according to this article. Yet the first line of this article claims that the New York metropolitan area is the "fourth most populous in the world (after Tokyo, Seoul, and Mexico City)." Can we address and resolve this contradiction?--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 12:55, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Mexico City has two definitions of the Zona Metropolitana: one is for "Ciudad de Mexico" (ZMCM)and the other is the somewhat larger but more commonly used "Valle de Mexico" (ZMVM). As of 2005, the ZMCM is 18.3 million while the ZMVM is 19.1 million (NYC's MSA is 18.7 million). The ZMVM more closely matches the US definition. See List of metropolitan areas of Mexico for the ZMVM data. --Polaron | Talk 17:04, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

If this is so, we should make the distinction clear in both articles. Otherwise, the contradiction appears confusing.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 17:18, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Almost every source I've ever read ranks Mexico City considerably larger than New York, although the numbers vary. I'm not sure how to apply this somewhat non-quantifiable observation to the article, though. I imagine more research might be needed on standard ways to "compare" metro areas in different countries.--Pharos 06:03, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Philadelphia is becoming part of the NYC metropolitan area

more and more commuter are taking the train from 30th st station straight to NYC's penn station for daily commute. The train ride is equivilent to that of suffolk county ronkonkoma line to penn station. And more people are driving from Philadelphia suburbs to NYC

RC(from NY now philly)Rcrookes 23:52, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

• Well, not really. Philadelphia by any criteria is its own major city and has its own metropolitan area in the Delaware Valley; both metro areas are part of the larger BosWash megalopolis.--Pharos 00:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Warren county

When will warren county become part of the new york metropolitan area? --J intela 04:55, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

It's part of the Allentown-Bethlehem-Easton metropolitan area, and there's no reason I see for it to leave that grouping in the foreseeable future.--Pharos 10:42, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Ancestry

You know something interesting In long Island the lowered Hudson valley and north jersey practically every one’s the children or grand children of people from new York city Shouldn’t that be another aspect of an metropolitan area at least in the united states were the inner cities are were the poor and new comers live.--J intela 06:32, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Mexico

Have we got a disagreement as to whether the Mexico City met area is larger or smaller than this one? Is there evidence either way? Jim.henderson 02:40, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Principal Cities within the New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island MSA

I don't quite get how this list is prioritized. There are cities which are much larger than the ones listed that aren't on the list. Union, Wayne, and New Brunswick have smaller populations than Passaic, Paterson and Clifton. Should this list be adjusted or is there a reason for this? Kajmal (talk) 02:40, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Principal cities are defined by the Office of Management and Budget, which also defines MSAs. The list of principal cities is available on the Census Bureau website. This is oversimplifying somehwat but principal cities are places where there are more jobs than employed residents. The required ratio depends on the population of the place. Cities that may be of moderate size, e.g. Paterson, are not principal cities because they send more workers out than the number of workers from outside that come in. In other words, non-principal cities function more like suburbs than major centers of employment. --Polaron | Talk 05:10, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Is it possible to add something interesting and descriptive (that's also neutral & reliable)?

This is not to criticise anyone for something I don't feel that qualified to do myself, but at present and at a hurried scan, the page is all classification, taxonomy, definition and enumeration of places. All of that is very necessary, because of the ever-increasing complexity of Census and other statistical definitions.

But (to someone living in Providence, Rhode Island) the New York metropolitan area is more than just a logical cluster of statistics, economics and boundary lines. The life and character of the New York metropolitan region are also broader than New York City's and more specific than those of New York State, New England or the Middle Atlantic seaboard.

Is there room for a couple of reasonably supportable and neutral sentences that would give this article some colour and distinguish it from otherwise-identical-looking articles about any other metropolitan area? In other words that give it location (in more than a merely geographic sense)? How closely, for example, does the region match up with athletic or academic loyalties such as Yankee nation? As a whole (rather than Manhattan or New York City), how is it seen as a particular incubator for the arts, medicine or research?

Or perhaps the region is really just a convenient abstraction that has no life apart from its component places.

As I said, this isn't to chide anyone else for something I'm not ready to write myself; just perhaps to inspire someone. —— Shakescene (talk) 21:32, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure of te question or what you are getting at. Are asking if this region is a cohesive one? I would say yes since NYC is the epicenter of it all. If NYC were just Manhattan alone, then it would not be such a big deal, but since the city is as large as it is, this metro region it what it is. It is not a superficial one like New England which tries to revolve itself around Boston, or should I say Boston tries to makes itself revolve around New England for it's own gain.

When it comes to sports teams, we are all in with NYC teams. We in CT are all in with NYC and NJ teams (we SHOULD have our OWN in the NYC area of the state!). Of course, CT outside of the NYC area is split between Boston(the closer you get to MA or away from NYC outside of New Haven) and NYC sports. It is similar to the way Southern NJ is all in with Phillie and they are not into NYC at all. However, Philly is or wants to be in the NYC area and does not seem to care about itself. Boston and Philly keep trying to finds ways to enter our market. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.89.86 (talk) 02:42, 28 July 2009 (UTC)