Talk:Qian Xuesen

Biography assessment rating comment

WikiProject Biography Summer 2007 Assessment Drive

Basically a B.

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 16:12, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

This article is a blatant communist propaganda piece. It is littered with factual errors and willful lies. This article should either be deleted, or completely re-researched. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.35.35.34 (talk) 19:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

^ If that is the case the please inform us of the factual errors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.85.45.75 (talk) 19:06, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

^ If this is a blatant communist propaganda piece, I shall say I am truly dispointed since the reason for him to return to China is not his own willingness but wrongful treatment from US government. It could be much better if it is said that he came back with willingness and eagerness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.79.2.90 (talk) 04:29, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

^ I believe that Qian actually enjoyed working in America. However, he was forced into exile, stripped of his clearance and his honor and forced to endure isolation before detaining him. At that time, there was a general outcry against Communism, and I'd say that many Americans regretted Qian's deportation as well as supported it. I would say that we pay respect to his long life instead of dwelling on what is false or not and persecuting him or others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.180.96 (talk) 13:24, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I just discovered him in an article by the BBC. There it says he was deported. He was sort of accused to be part of a communist group but that group was more about fighting racial segregation - so they say. I am Australian and have observed that Americans are losing it when something looks lefty. They call it communist and then say everybody would be put in camps (Seen a woman saying it on TV during 2020 election campaign). When a health insurance or health care system is described as communist, that is paranoia. At the time of Qian during the McCarthy era that was the end for many people in America, where they like conformists. Creative scientists (and artists) will always run the risk of being frozen out by the conformists. 2001:8003:A070:7F00:6D88:C939:977E:528D (talk) 03:58, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Role at JPL

I don't think that Tsien was a JPL director. The article needs to be corrected.

This needs to be sourced.

Tsien is said to be embarassed about his past in the west and has destroyed documents associated with that time and has asked friends not to speak of it.

In Chinese interviews, Tsien has talked often about his time in the United States, and I've never gotten the impression that he is embarrassed by it.

This came from an article about Chang's book. The article implied that this was in Chang's book. I have no idea if it is or not, I can only go on what was said. If someone has Chang's books and can refute it that would be good.Ark30inf 01:49, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I haven't read Chang's book but I am sure that Tsien had never been interviewed by Chang during the writing process of the book. 大将军, 都督中外诸军事 (talk) 00:51, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The book doesn't say anything about embarassment. On the contrary, it implies that Tsien was angry and felt betrayed by the US government, and is still waiting for an apology. - mako 02:49, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I concur that Tsien was not a director of JPL, but rather a co-founder. Tsien worked alongside his mentor Theodore von Kármán and friend Frank Malina on work that led to JPL. He was part of the informal rocketry group that CalTech folks called the "Suicide Squad," led by Frank Malina. Chang's book (pp. 106, 109) says he was section leader of "JPL-1, the original AAF engine research program." (AAF = Army Air Force) Apparantly, this mistake was in the Wikipedia article on JPL as well, and has since been corrected. --Rocksci 14:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

It appears that co-founder of JPL appeared in the article before, but was replaced by grad student of the founder, this based on a failed Google search of the JPL website. I did the search as well, and uncovered the document JPL 101; it discusses JPL early history, talks about what happened to the co-founders, including Tsien. So I have replaced director by co-founder. also, NASA did not exist yet; so I have re-worded to indicate that JPL was originally part of CalTech. JPL 101 also cites Tsien as a co-author of the first JPL memo. I've updated the career in US section accordingly. --Rocksci 06:54, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Who called Tsien Hsue Shen King of Rocketry?

I am sorry; I have not heard this term King of Rocketry applied to Tsien Hsue Shen before. What is the source?Hillgentleman 13:43, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

The term "King of Rocketry" was applied to Qian Xueshen when he was living in China after deportation. His future contributions to China's rockets made him a national hero and was regarded as a cherished figure in Chinese science. Most of his work set China onto the path of evolving technology and thus was given the name "King of Rocketry....in China". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.180.96 (talk) 13:27, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Whatever you call him, he was an outstanding rocket scientist. However for some reason, someone keeps saying he let China's nuclear bomb project. This simply couldn't be the case since rocket science is very different from nuclear science. Anyone with a second year college physic class knows this. Yet someone keeps putting "he led China's nuclear bomb project" back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lohengrin9 (talk • contribs) 07:10, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Analogy to Wu Ningkun seems a bit misleading

"...he returned to China after being accused of being a communist by the United States government during the red scare of the 1950s the same way Wu Ningkun was accused of being an American spy in mainland China."

As far as I know, based on the autobiographical memoir by Wu Ningkun, and the memoir by his daughter, Wu was suspected of being an American spy, during the '50s but not officially accused by the authorities. He was denounced and sent to a concentration camp as an "ultra-rightist". I also think their experiences were quite different. So I think the analogy is rather misleading.

Another reason to remove the analogy is that many intellectuals were persecuted in China during the anti-rightist campaigns of the '50s and the Cutural Revolution, and many (especially if they had studied abroad) were suspected of being American spies. So, I don't see a reason to single out Wu in the context of Qian Xuesen's story. Cowdemon 16:02, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Army Assignment in Germany

Although the Army sent Tsien to Germany and had him wear the uniform a of Lieutenant Colonel, I don't think he was really commissioned. (That is, I don't think he was trained in Army protocols and given command responsibility.) I believe Iris Chang discusses the arrangement in some detail. The goal was to quickly get him into Germany to that he could evaluate German weapons development.

Also, was this really the Army Air Force that sent him in? I've never seen a source explicitly state this. --Rocksci 16:29, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

According to Chang:

p109: "[Kármán] asked him to join him in Washington, D.C., and to work with him as part of a three-man staff and also as a member of the Scientific Advisory Group, which would aid the chief of staff of the Army Air Force in examining all possible options of air conflict in any future war."

p112: "The Air Force also promoted Tsien to the rank of assimilated colonel and gave him the title of expert consultant."

- mako 16:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

More Information

Needs to be added about the identity of the idiots who accelerated the Chinese Rocketry program by labeling this man a communist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.194.63.129 (talk) 22:35, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

That will be difficult to accuse anybody currently because most likely they are already dead. And even if he/she are still alive, there were millions of people wildly accusing people of being Communist (Chinese, Russian, even Americans!) and widespread panic resulted in harsh measures that may or may not have convicted innocent people such as Qian Xueshen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.180.96 (talk) 13:32, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I guess it would be quite interesting to include that he applied for the US citizenship, which was denied. This information is not available in China due to their propaganda. There are various sources for this information such as The Guardian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.104.106.55 (talk) 13:23, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Hangzhou

Was Hangzhou the capital of Zhejiang province when Tsien Hsue-shen was born there? Did the province exist by that name at the time? (sdsds - talk) 20:38, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Seeing as how Zhejiang province was established in the Ming Dynasty, and AFAIK Hangzhou has been its capital since founding, I'd have to say yes. Unless Tsien is 600+ years old. ;) --Rpine75 (talk) 02:41, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Qian wasn't treated badly in 1960-1970 at all. He was the father of rocketry of China. stop your irrational fantasy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.253.43.107 (talk) 19:01, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Whether he was "purged" by the Communist authorities? Experiences during Cultural Revolution?

Does anyone have sources/resources on how he and his family were treated after being deported to China? I'm curious as to their experiences during the Cultural Revolution and whether they were "sacked" much. 24.83.201.24 (talk) 10:14, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

• Just a personal guess - but he was part of the PLA for the entirety of his career in the PRC so I doubt he is affected very much. Frankchn (talk) 14:30, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
• Not at all. You should understand although cultural revolution was ridiculous, it still has a reason, which was to purge those thought to be Chairman Mao's enemies. Mao obviously knew Tsien was an important tool for him.99.147.161.63 (talk) 14:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Qian and other scientists who were working for numerous national defense projects in China were protected by Premier Zhou Enlai during the Cultural Resolution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.227.8.117 (talk) 01:35, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Age

Qian was born on Dec. 11th, 1911 and died on Oct. 31st, 2009. Thus, his last birthday was Dec. 11th, 2008. 2008-1911 = 97. Not 98. I am sure the confusion comes into play since Chinese years of age are counted from each new year- thus Qian was 1 year old the entirety of 1912, and was 98 the entirety of 2009, for China. However, although Chinese naming conventions are preserved in the western world, for the most part, birthdays are not. Even worse is that the LA Times is reporting his death at age 98, despite that his age calculates out to 97. There's an edit war over the age- please check the talk page before you rashly change it back to 98. --Utopianfiat (talk) 19:35, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

According to East Asian age reckoning, Qian was 1 suì (歲 - "year old") from 11 Dec 1911 to 17 Feb 1912 (Chinese New Year's Eve), 2 suì from 18 Feb 1912 to 5 Feb 1913 and so on. (New Year calculations courtesy of OK Lah.net). But China no longer uses the system much officially so it's not really relevant for the time of his death. — AjaxSmack 05:15, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Latest edits

I've gone through and cleaned up the most obvious errors of grammar and style, up to the point of Qian's return to China in 1955. I've also sourced the information about his education and family, wherever possible. If there are any quibbles or objections, let's handle them here rather than adding them to the article text. (I'm looking at you, anonymous editor at 128.111.144.32 - but thanks for your tip.) LibertyHiller (talk) 18:46, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Help needed

Can anyone help me to locate a copy of HS Tsien scientific paper:

Tsien, HS, "On the Design of the Contraction Cone for a Wind Tunnel," J. Aeronaut. Sci., 10, 68-70, 1943 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.86.29.158 (talk) 02:50, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Dubious

^ There was a statement on the page that indicated Qian applied for citizenship but could not afford the naturalization fees. This statement sounds like a propaganda piece during his time in China (coming from his wife) and should be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jedi2155 (talk • contribs) 07:50, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

well, phoenix is a pro-beijing source, but it's not a unreliable source for this kind of information so i left it and simply attributed it better. I think that's the best we can do for now. I don't know why this must necessarily be propaganda?Happy monsoon day 18:09, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

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I suggest changing the name to Hsue-Shen Tsien

"The name he used while in the United States was Hsue-Shen Tsien, or H.S. Tsien."

Actually, that was the name he used, period, so the name of the article should be the same name he was known for. Nobody else has the right to change this. Only in the 1980's did the current pinyin system come to place in China replacing the Wade-Giles system. But this does not mean that the names of everyone who was born before this date have to be changed accordingly. It is the search result of 'Qian Xuesen' that should be directed to 'Hsue-Shen Tsien'.Yen-Tzu (talk) 08:49, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Agreed, so the Move has been made; edits to article will be required; hope you will help! Rgdboer (talk) 01:34, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

OK, Tsien has been used throughout except for his time in China, where Qian is his surname. This scientist deserves attention through his lasting contributions such as Engineering Cybernetics (1954) and his symmetrical airfoil. His legacy in English is as Hsue-Shen Tsien and this article in English Wikipedia adheres to that designation. Rgdboer (talk) 23:12, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

I've moved the article back to "Qian Xuesen" per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PINYIN. Google results for "Qian Xuesen" are three times as numerous as "Hsue-Shen Tsien". Encyclopedia Britannica NYT, New Yorker, etc. all use "Qian Xuesen". -Zanhe (talk) 01:35, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

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Participation in the Manhattan Project

Hi all! The article says that Xuesen worked on the Manhattan Project, this statement is referenced with The New Yorker, Public Radio International, and RADII. Though the sources can be considered reliable, this fact is not in Xuesen's biography by Iris Chang, Thread of the Silkworm, nor in these more reputable sources like Nature, Caltech, NY Times, Science, and even Britannica. Manhattan Project is well-researched and documented, so surely there should be better sources about his involvement. I'm removing this statement, but if anybody knows better sources than a passing mention like in the three sources above, please let me know. Artem.G (talk) 07:27, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

there are plenty of reliable sources that state Qian worked on the Manhattan Project: Policy Docs of the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review CommissionPubMed MIT Technology Review National Academy of EngineeringSomeone Else's Empire: British Illusions and American Hegemony By Tom Stevenson published by Random Penguin House Original Sin: Power, Technology and War in Outer Space By Bleddyn E. Bowen Published by Oxford University Press

If there are other credible sources that mention the information, I don't think it is appropriate to exclude the info because it wasn't mentioned in certain sources. Info about his participation in the Manhattan Project should be included. LilAhok (talk) 21:06, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

all these sources simply reuse the same phrase, "worked on the Manhattan Project", exactly as I wrote above. More reputable sources, like his biography, etc etc, do not mention it. I will ping some experts on Manhattan Project who knows more than me, hope they can help. @NuclearSecrets:, @Hawkeye7:. Artem.G (talk) 21:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

His name doesn't come up in any Manhattan Project files that I have seen. I suspect that if he had any connection, it was through his wartime work at Caltech, which along with its rocket projects was also the site of Project Camel. Whether Qian was associated with Camel or not, I can't really tell. He is listed here as a member of the overall Caltech wartime work as a "Research Assistant" in the "Theoretical Research Group," but it's not easy to tell from the org chart where different projects might have overlapped or how. It is not totally impossible to imagine he was involved in some way -- Camel included topics like ballistic flight of the specific bomb shapes, which is not so out of his area of expertise -- but that doesn't mean he actually was involved with that. It would be interesting to see his FBI file... anyway, that's all I've got right now! NuclearSecrets (talk) 18:12, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Published as HS Tsien

Since so many publications are found with e.g.:

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=hs+tsien

the article might be improved by adding the note that H.S. Tsien redirects here. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 08:37, 9 February 2024 (UTC)