Talk:Resurrection of Jesus

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Post-resurrection appearances of Jesus

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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A few months ago one user deleted the content of the article Post-resurrection appearances of Jesus and replaced it with a redirect to Resurrection of Jesus#Biblical accounts, without any previous discussion, claiming in the edit summary that it was "same topic, same coverage". This is unacceptable and it should never happen again. SanctumRosarium (talk) 21:22, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

What exactly is "unacceptable"? To cover the same topic on two separate pages, and force editor's to do the same edit twice? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:07, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

As in: having the same discussion at two places: Talk:Post-resurrection appearances of Jesus#Redirect. Please stick to one thread}}. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:10, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

First to see resurrected Jesus

The first to see Jesus after his resurrection was Mary of Magadala. 65.186.177.151 (talk) 03:56, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Bad grammar

Does anybody else realize that this sentence lacks a subject?

In secular and liberal Christian scholarship asserts that religious experiences, such as the visionary appearances of Jesus and an inspired reading of the Biblical texts, gave the impetus to the belief in the exaltation of Jesus as a "fulfillment of the scriptures," and a resumption of the missionary activity of Jesus's followers.

I think the word "Christian" could be changed to "Christianity", and then "scholarship" would become the subject of the sentence. But as it stands, "In secular and liberal Christian scholarship" is a prepositional phrase, and the sentence has a predicate but no subject. Kk.urban (talk) 17:48, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE copying from Vision theory of Jesus' appearances

These edits diff copied a large chunk of text from Vision theory of Jesus' appearances, with the argument

The previous layout seemed very unbalanced with two blocks of arguments on why the resurrection was just down to visions without much relation to the topic of Christology. I pasted sections from the Vision theory of Jesus' appearances page to balance out the points from both sides of the debate.

This is WP:UNDUE. The section Resurrection of Jesus#Christ-devotion explains that the devotion of Jesus as Christ was a most significance change in the attitude of the disciples, and it explains that religious experiencez played a significant role in this change. Singling-out the notion of visionary experiences bypasses this change, and the relevance of religious experience; instead, the focus is shifted to an apology of Christian beliefs.
The article already refers extensively to a limited number of Christian apologists; in the lead, the orthodox view is stated first, where-after the liberal and secular view is stated; the section Resurrection of Jesus#Foundation of faith states:

For orthodox Christians, including some scholars, the resurrection is taken to have been a concrete, material resurrection of a transformed body. Craig L. Blomberg argues there are sufficient arguments for the historicity of the resurrection.
In secular and liberal Christian scholarship, the post-resurrection appearances are often explained as subjective visionary experiences in which Jesus's presence was felt, as articulated in the vision theory of Jesus's appearances. In the twenty-first century, modern scholars such as Gerd Lüdemann have proposed that Peter had a vision of Jesus, due to severe grief and mourning. Ehrman notes that "Christian apologists sometimes claim that the most sensible historical explanation for these visions is that Jesus [physically] appeared to the disciples."

That suffices; not everyone in this world is Christian. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:58, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

The section goes out of its way to argue for the vision hypothesis. While I'm all for it being put forward, there should at least be some comment by critics of the said hypothesis to make the section more inclusive. Divus303 (talk) 13:25, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

For example, it cites Craig Blomberg as saying there are sufficient arguments, but it doesn't cite any, meanwhile the article cares to go out of its way to argue for the vision hypothesis. That's WP:UNDUE. Divus303 (talk) 13:34, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

That orthodox/conservative Christians believe in a bodily resurrection is made overly clear in the article; the liberal point of view, let alone the non-Christian (atheist) view is largely neglected. Copying the whole Criticism-section of the Vision-article is undue apologetics. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 15:02, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

You miss my point. I'm all for representing non-Christian views, but that section was just a constructed argument on why Ehrman thinks it was down to purely visions, and as I pointed out about Blomberg, there is no balance. There should either be separate arguments representing both sides of the debate, a paragraph noting scholars sceptical of Ehmrman under his argument (such as Wright), or simply remove the debate altogether and simply state that some scholars argue for the vision hypothesis or bodily resurrection. If any point of view is neglected it is in fact the Christian one, since you're not allowing points in favor of it. Divus303 (talk) 19:25, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

This isn't any attempt at any pushy apologetics, you just can't have one case put forward without any other competing ones, or at the very least criticism of the said case. If this were the other way around and the section was only a case for a bodily resurrection I would be citing arguments for the vision hypothesis instead. Its all about balance. Divus303 (talk) 19:28, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

I think you miss a point here. The section is about the origins of Christ devotion; none of your scholars has anything to say about that, in contrast to Hurtado. And, as I noted before, this article is already dominated by 'conservative' views. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 20:14, 22 November 2023 (UTC)