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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete per WP:TOOSOON, basically. I will provide the source if anyone wants it. Guy (Help!) 09:29, 16 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hari Bhimaraju

[edit]
Hari Bhimaraju (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Does not appear to pass WP:BLP1E or WP:ONEEVENT. The majority of coverage appears to be due to the periodic elements app and or stemming from that app with the other items either tangential or concerning non-notable events (I suspect a good deal of the coverage may also be as a Human interest story). It is a nice article however the individual does not appear notable. Mifter (talk) 01:25, 15 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions.  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  06:55, 15 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions.  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  06:55, 15 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I'm not sure how much of the discussion from my talk page people can see here. When the template for 'notable for one event' was put on the page I made a case there and added further information and citations to the article, so I will paste some of my comments here:
I'm not sure which is the singular event you are referring to. Hari is a programmer who has developed several pieces of software/interfaces, most notably her periodic table learning device for visually impaired and blind students for which she won Broadcom MASTERS. The following year she developed that into a smartphone app and was invited to the White House Science Fair. The next piece of software she wrote and developed was medicine management software for blind and visually impaired, the elderly and those with alzheimers. She works with Piper Inc developing their software, and so on. She's been invited to the White House twice! That's on top of the fact that she's 13 years old. As there's not one single event how would you like me to improve the article?
Then I added a citation from ABC news about her other notable software, an integrated medicine management system, and another citation on a science website for blind and visually impaired people about that app. She is of course only 13 so there is an obvious human interest, but women in science are under represented on Wikipedia, and even if other editors feel she is too young or in some kind of grey area I would urge people to keep the page. As for WP:BLP1E 1) she is already known for several different things (Broadcom MASTERS, Elementor app, medicine management app, exhibiting at the White House Science Fair, being asked back which apparently rarely happens, Computer Science Girls award, Donum Visi) 2) She is clearly unlikely to remain a 'low profile individual' as she is 13 and presumably driven and even encouraged by her own achievements 3) Well documented in the press, mostly national news in the USA but also on websites less well known for blind and visually impaired people. The persistence of her press has been consistently since she was 11 years old. Naturally there is a public interest. As noted on my talk page I should be able to add photos if necessary. Thank you for inviting my comments Mramoeba (talk) 08:48, 15 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep
I'm with Mramoeba Each point made by Mifter has been addressed nicely.Boneso (talk) 09:28, 15 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep
I reviewed the details of WP:BLP1E and WP:ONEEVENT, and I do not see how one would think this article has a problem by those criteria.. RobP (talk) 12:17, 15 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Further comment only: I have added a citation from The Daily Telegraph (British major newspaper) in which she is featured and quoted, indicating further international coverage; a featured article in Raspberry Pi Foundations UK newsletter about her future programming; and more coverage on her most recent IPhone medicine app which was covered by Reach Out Radio, a station and website which provides audio coverage of print news articles of interest to blind people and those with visual impairment, demonstrating how her work is of particular interest to people in those communities as well as mainstream 'sighted' news agencies. Mramoeba (talk) 20:20, 16 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: AFD was improperly closed by an Anon - Procedural Relist.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mifter (talk) 00:26, 26 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. Lemongirl942 (talk) 19:36, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science-related deletion discussions. Lemongirl942 (talk) 19:36, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: As far as I can tell the reasons given in the original nomination have been more than addressed. Regarding the potential CoI, Mramoeba seems to edit a range of articles on popular science topics, and doesn't seem to have focused specifically on this one, nor are they the sole author of this article. I am also satisfied that they do not have close ties to the subject. On another note: this is a really thorough and well-sourced article, which is waiting in the DYK review queue, and I believe should pass fairly easily. While I'm glad that Mifter is being diligent about biographical articles, I will say that having it held up in AfD is a little frustrating. -Kieran (talk) 23:12, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - In that case in regards to this article being in the DYK queue and by the looks of the above arguments, could this not be snowballed? Comment taken back - Pmedema (talk) 01:19, 2 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - please relist I prefer this to be relisted. I have been looking at some of the sources and I am increasingly of the opinion that this seems to be one of the human interest stories. I need some time to have a look though. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 01:46, 2 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
With respect, i don't wish to seem rude but it's been 17 days and relisted already Mramoeba (talk) 18:10, 2 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I understand. But the article as it is written is extremely promotional and not what I would call an encyclopaedia article. There is an over reliance on primary sources. This also reads like some kind of a CV.
  • Bhimaraju is not sure what field she would like to follow but in an interview at the White House Science Fair in 2016 when asked what her dream job might be she said, "I want to do something 'sciencey' that helps people, so maybe like a biomedical engineer."  Fixed
  • Her mother Gayatri originally believed the email invitation to be a hoax as it arrived on short notice. She was eventually reassured by a member of the White House staff, and then Bhimaraju was allowed to travel unaccompanied to Washington. “This has been my best holiday gift ever!" she later wrote to her grandparents.  Fixed
The sourcing is quite problematic to be honest, which is why I want this to be relisted. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 18:46, 2 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy to accept your criticism. I would suggest the best way forward is to help edit it, either to reword or remove. Both of these are from the small final section 'personal life'. I thought these were interesting, but Wikipedia is of course a collaboration, so I welcome the help. Mramoeba (talk) 20:20, 2 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There are more than 28 sources in the article, so it is taking a bit of time to go through all of them. As of now, my personal opinion is that it would require some more secondary sources to establish notability. I will post my analysis of the sources below soon. --Lemongirl942 (talk)
  • Comment The dyk for this article (outstanding since jan 25th) has been recommended by an admin there for International Women's day, March 8th. It would be great if it could be decided either way in time for that. Thanks. Mramoeba (talk) 08:46, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I had a look at this an the sources unfortunately are not good enough. This is essentially a human interest story and a biography about a generally low profile individual and is precisely what WP:BLP1E is about. The coverage is also largely local and a bunch of primary sources have been used in the article. Let's have a look at the sources.
  1. amysmartgirls.com This is essentially "contributor" article and an interview. Contributor articles are essentially WP:SPS. In addition, this is also an interview. We require reliable secondary sources.
  2. www.perkinselearning.org Not a reliable source. This is a mention on the website of a private institution - and is a puff piece. Source is affiliated with the subject, so not independent.
  3. www.projectcsgirls.com This is written by the subject. Not an independent source. See short descriptions (in no particular order) of our finalists' projects written by the girls themselves. In addition, this is a primary source  Fixed
  4. science-fair.org Primary source. Mentions name of subject but nothing more
  5. www.sciencenewsforstudents.org One sentence passing mention. The website also isn't exactly a reputable news source.
  6. The 30 most impressive science fair projects in the country Clickbait top 10 type listicle. Every single finalist of the Broadcom project is listed. The actual coverage is very very brief (3 sentences) and is literally a passing mention.
  7. White House Science Fair 2016 - Primary source and essentially a press release by the white house listing the students.
  8. DUPLICATE article - This is duplicate of #6
  9. ABC news - Feature on the subject. Although the format essentially indicates a human interest story, the reference is still useful. Possibly the only reliable secondary source which offers significant coverage.
  10. scifair.com Another primary source. Only mentions name of the subject.
  11. santacruzsentinel.com Local source. These are not useful for GNG because local sources put too much coverage on local individuals of even a little interest.
  12. telegraph.co.uk Passing mention. (2 sentences of which 1 is quote).
  13. Mercury news Local source reporting about the white house science fair. There are brief mentions of 4 bay area participants.
  14. perkinselearning.org Same source as #2 and is actually affiliated with the subject.
  15. reachoutradio.org Website of an organisation and not an RS. It actually links to the ABC post #9. This is not a separate source.
  16. student.societyforscience.org Primary source again. (The website of the insititution which awards the broadcom masters)
  17. projectcsgirls.com No mention of subject. Also primary source
  18. perkinselearning.org.Same source as #2 and is actually affiliated with the subject.
  19. donumvisi.org No mention of subject and source is affiliated with subject's sister
  20. tsbvi.edu Event listing which simply contains a passing mention of the subject's name. Also primary source
  21. societyforscience.org Press release and primary source. See #16
  22. thereporter.com This is a reprint of the Mercury News article (which itself is a local source). Reprints are not considered unique sources anyway.
  23. science-fair.org Primary source simply listing winners with no additional information. Same website as #4
  24. ssd.jpl.nasa.gov Primary source listing name of Asteroid. For perspective, 1500 science fair winners have Asteroids named after them
  25. obamawhitehouse.archives.gov No mention of subject.
  26. Youtube White house primary source. Essentially the subject talking for a brief moment.
  27. raspberrypi.org This is not a reliable source. Raspberry Pi newsletter simply collects news even minutely related to raspberry.
  28. mercurynews.com This is again a local source
According to the analysis above, I only find 1 ABCnews feature which offers significant coverage. The article is heavily WP:REFBOMBed with primary sources and these do not help for notability. In addition, many of the sources are essentially the subject talking about themselves. All of this goes against WP:WHYN (the reason why we have notability guidelines). We require reliable secondary sources so that we are able to write an NPOV article. The article as it stands now is very much a WP:PROMO article.
I also think this is WP:TOOSOON. There have been many such children who have won science fairs. Many of them may have received local news coverage due to the event, but not much coverage later. We periodically have these human interest stories. This doesn't make them notable though and falls under the WP:NOTNEWS exception.
A scientist is notable for their work and we evaluate the impact of the work either by citations or by secondary press coverage. In this case citations are not applicable and the amount of secondary press coverage is very minimal as shown. At this time, I think this should be deleted. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 03:41, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I don't have time to reply to all this, but i'm sure Lemongirl is well aware that, for example, primary sources can be used to cite "straightforward, descriptive statements of facts" like the school she went to (4), the awards won (7),(10),(16),(23) which is how these are used. Local reputable newspapers are fine. Amysmartgirls is not self published. A write up in a major British broadsheet and a quote is not simply a 'passing mention', it's also international coverage. Reach out Radio as I already mentioned is an audio website for blind people showing coverage not usually relevant unless the subject is of interest to the blind community. Perkinslearning is a website for blind students. The subject designs software for blind students, I guess they like her. The duplicate article I added was over a month later and yes, mea culpa, didn't realise it was a duplicate article. Mramoeba (talk) 06:02, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I've listed a few years worth of RS demonstrating independent coverage on television, radio, and in publications beginning in 2015 to 2017 which substantiates her notability, especially considering her age (11-12 yr. old) and what she actually accomplished to garner such widespread attention at such a young age. Note: The Elementor Periodic Table App which she created is available for download all over the internet]
  1. Marin Independent Journal, September 2015 independent source, significant coverage
  2. NBC Bay Area, April 2016 NBC Bay Area independent significant coverage
  3. New India Times, April 2016 independent significant coverage
  4. FOX 2 News, April 2016 FOX Bay Area, independent significant coverage
  5. ABC Columbia, SC interviewed her Aug 2016 ABC affiliate, independent
  6. KWBG Local news radio in Iowa, Aug 2016 radio station, independent
  7. My Central Oregon (ABC), Aug 2016 ABC affiliate in Oregon, independent
  8. Dissecting Pig Lungs To Learn How We Breathe, October 2016 independent publication
  9. The Mecury News in Dec 2016 independent publication
There are more, but I don't think it's necessary to add all of them. There are many more cited in her BLP. Atsme📞📧 00:06, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I checked every one of those sources (careful clicking on the one from India, it has a script that crashed my browser), and they are either (1) about all the children who went to the White House, not focusing on this one, (2) California sources along the lines of local girl makes it big, or (3) mirror sources of the ABC news source. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:19, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The 2nd NBC Bay Area report is titled "Cupertino Middle Schooler Presents Project at White House Science Fair", and that is who was interviewed. The caption under the broadcast states: "Twelve-year-old Bhimaraju of Kennedy Middle School presented at the White House “The Elementor,” a portable, low-cost teaching tool to help visually impaired students learn the periodic table of elements. (Published Tuesday, April 26, 2016)" And if you go down the list, you will find the same thing. Just looking at the link titles gives the focus of the interview/story, such as ABC Columbia - "inspiring-12-year-old-girl-creates-tool-and-technology-for-the-visually-impaired", and KWBG radio in Idaho "california-girl-12-creates-tools-and-technology-for-the-visually-impaired", and on and on. I don't know why the cached article crashed your browser but there are 8 other sources that didn't if you checked them all, and most were focused on Hari far more than they were the White House trip. Atsme📞📧 17:00, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As I already said, I checked them all. And many of them are mirror sources of the ABC news report. We don't treat mirror sources as multiple sources. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:57, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The subject is clearly a very intelligent child, and will no doubt be notable one day, but she is not there yet. A winning science fair project does not make for notability, and the article is full of WP:PUFFERY, such as "she was particularly thrilled to meet Bill Nye the Science Guy."  Fixed The subject does not meet WP:BIO, which is the relevant criterion. She has not "received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject," nor has she "received a well-known and significant award or honor" like the Nobel Prize. -- 120.17.44.177 (talk) 08:29, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Further comments should consider statements by Lemongirl942. Right now it seems like a 'no consensus' closure, despite a ratio of six 'keep's for four (including the nominator) delete !votes.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, J947 18:15, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I do not agree that the Mercury News (two articles) and the Santa Cruz Sentinel are too "local" to be useful. The ABC news along with these other "local" papers is plenty to prove notability. Primary sources are commonly used to accent the secondary noteworthy ones that already exist here. I think calling the Merc "local" when it has a circulation of over half a million daily, quite a reach, plus it has received two Pulitzer Prizes.Sgerbic (talk) 03:49, 8 March 2017 (UTC) Edited to add a response to isp 120.17.44.177... If only people who had won the Nobel Prize could receive Wikipedia pages, we would have a pretty empty website. And as far as I'm concerned according to the article I just reviewed, Bhimaraju has "received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject"'. Also to the charge that some of the article seems to contain "puffery", that is what is keeping the article from reading like a dry piece of paper, this isn't a CV afterall.Sgerbic (talk) 03:56, 8 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep change to DELETEunable to verify validity of the "innovative" systems beyond publicity as a school project Atsme📞📧 13:53, 10 March 2017 (UTC) - notability passes. The world isn't inundated with aspiring young female scientists so this young lady's notability and her story's encyclopedic value is far reaching. Atsme📞📧 18:30, 8 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I became aware of this discussion via a note at WT:PROF. I largely agree with Lemongirl942's analysis of the sources. And as much as I am personally sympathetic to the value of us covering young female scientists, my reading of policies and guidelines leads me to a close-call of delete – and policies and guidelines should determine the consensus here, not editors' likes and dislikes. The subject is primarily recognized by way of having been selected to present at a White House science fair (attended by President Obama and Bill Nye) along with with other students, and having won a national STEM competition for middle school students. Does she satisfy WP:PROF as a scientist? No, because the note to criterion 2 states: Victories in academic student competitions at the high school and university level as well as other awards and honors for academic student achievements (at either high school, undergraduate or graduate level) do not qualify under Criterion 2 and do not count towards partially satisfying Criterion 1. It's not a "major award" in science, as Wikipedia defines it (see the paragraph just above the one I quoted at WP:PROF). Furthermore, WP:NACADEMIC, first point, says that a basic characteristic of notability for having done something in science is: The person's research has had a significant impact in their scholarly discipline.... In other words, other scholars have built further investigation upon the work of the page subject. Per the available sourcing, that has not yet happened. So she does not pass PROF. But does she, instead, pass WP:GNG or WP:ANYBIO? The first point of ANYBIO is about a significant award or honor, and I just dealt with that above. The second point is The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field. Note: "part of the enduring historical record", which is very much as how PROF describes "significant impact". So we are left with GNG or WP:BASIC. BASIC requires multiple secondary sources that are intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject. This is where it gets close, and we are almost there, but not actually all the way there. Because so much of the sourcing derives from winning the middle school award and going to the White House, it's worth looking at those two events in terms of WP:DIVERSE. The coverage should be significantly national or international. We have plenty of sourcing from the area in California from which the person comes. But we have exactly one source (and I've looked carefully at each of them) that focuses on the individual person (as opposed to mentioning her among all the other students at the White House) and is national-level coverage: the one from ABC news: [1]. GNG says of such major coverage that multiple sources are generally expected. Do we have enough California sources to say that, despite "generally", we can here justify a keep based on GNG? It's a close call, but particularly in the context of failing so many SNG criteria, I think not. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:50, 8 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Just an FYI - I added some additional sources above spanning a few years, and all independent coverage on local ABC, NBC, FOX affiliates but in different parts of the country. GNG doesn't require a primetime network feed, just multiple independent RS. I also added India Times for a bit of international flare. Since the child is not Hollywood famous and is still just a minor, only 11-12 yrs old in middle school, the lack of major network coverage is expected, especially considering the topic. Atsme📞📧 00:25, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I replied above, after your list of the sources. I still say delete. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:44, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I thought further about whether there might be an option of merging the page into a page about one of the events. We seem not to have a page about the middle school STEM competition, which may indicate that it's not really that notable an event (or alternatively just no page yet). White House Science Fair redirects to USA Science and Engineering Festival, and a look at that page reveals that it's a huge event, in which one middle school student would be just one attendee. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:22, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I considered your suggestion, but can't get past what this highly notable young lady has already developed, the notable of which is mentioned in the lede of the article. It is not only encyclopedic, it is innovatively beneficial as software. Atsme📞📧 17:11, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If there is a reliable source about software that discusses how this software has had a further "beneficial" influence, then that statement would not have been OR. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:57, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. WP:BLP1E, WP:Too soon. No in-depth sources. Hopefully in later times this may change. Xxanthippe (talk) 01:12, 9 March 2017 (UTC).[reply]
  • Comment. Looking over this discussion, this has been relisted twice and an enormous about of research has been involved. I'm wondering if this is just getting weird. I've been in many conversations about deletions and can't remember one this involved. I'm really glad to see how much Wikipedians care. But at some point, don't we have other things to do? This is from Feb 15th, Just saying.Sgerbic (talk) 06:07, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. We do not regard student awards as leading to notability, science fairs included. Even the most notable of all student awards, and at the graduate not junior high school level, the Rhodes Scholarships, have been held repeatedly not to by themselves prove notability . The relevant policy is NOT TABLOID, and extreme instance of the more general NOT NEWS. NOTTABLOID is meant to apply not just to sensationalist stories of unexplained phenomena or lurid accounts of celebrities,but to things intrinsically minor but that are being made a fuss over. Over-detsailed human interest stories about cute young people doing well in a student competition or inventing something minor but very good considering their age, or publishing a trivial scientific paper, tend to attract momentary human interest. in a very few cases, its been long term interest and then there might be a reason for considering it. Having reliable sources is necessary for an article, and for meeting the GNG. But that's a secondary consideration to the specific prohibitions in WP:NOT, which are intended to be the defining basis for a modern encyclopedia. We are supposed to be an encyclopedia , not a collection of interesting things in a vague and indiscriminate way. Accounts like this are the equivalent of a politician kissing babies, and bear the same relationship to anything important. DGG ( talk ) 10:02, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment so it appears to me that some editors are saying that because this young girl is only a student and not an academic professional or scientist that she is not notable, and/or that a gifted 11-12 yr. old who created an educational software program that helps the blind and received a great deal of significant coverage in numerous independent sources because of that accomplishment, is neither encyclopedic nor notable because she is a student? Atsme📞📧 13:44, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep WP:BLP1E is not at all relevant because we have multiple events and achievements; the subject is the focus of attention and she is not a low-profile person, having won multiple public awards. Instead, the subject passes WP:ANYBIO and WP:BASIC. Andrew D. (talk) 15:23, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Her age is irrelevant and any invocations of WP:TOOSOON are (willfully?) misunderstanding what that essay says. As Andrew D. states, WP:BLP1E does not apply as there are more than one event and list of achievements. And per Atsme, there are multiple sources that discuss this person in more than a trivial manner -- local press is still acceptable (not sure why it would not be). Sometimes a young person is notable, full stop. Easily passes WP:GNG. freshacconci talk to me 15:58, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I put in my two cents previously, and nothing said by folks since who are lobbying for deletion has changed my mind. I agree that WP:TOOSOON is being misused and WP:BLP1E does not seem to apply in this case. Seems to me to pass WP:GNG - and easily. RobP (talk) 04:18, 10 March 2017 (UTC) (Changed dup vote to comment!)[reply]
  • Strong Keep Wikipedia is not just the preserve of Old White men of European Origins, with two feet in the past! We have a programmer, who in the space of two years has two notable smartphone app to her name. If President Obama has lauded her- that satisfies Notability in anyone's book. We have a programmer who is doing notable work on a Raspberry Pi- who is hacking in Java, wrestling Android and Linux- these are multiple achievements. If you try hard enough you can always fail someone on a nitpicking technicality. Try running the God article through some of these test. Do we want the article or are we just playing games? Is it of sufficient interest? This is a programmer from California- she had President Obamas East Coast interest, and writing this from London, I can assure you that it will be of interest over here to large numbers of teachers for a start as role model. Does it benefit Wikipedia to include her- obviously, Raspi and Smart-phone are the future.
GNG are judged on amount of coverage- I suspect that there will be even more primary and secondary coverage were a delete goes ahead- of the type.. Wikipedia deletes article.... on International Womens Day. All this nit-picking and bile- just proves two things we need to have a set of rules for notable WP:CHILDPRODIGY and clarify WP:EXCEPTIONS ClemRutter (talk) 17:18, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NOT isn't nitpicking technicality. It's fundamental policy, and the basis of the rationale why we have an encyclopedia. NOT NEWS,and NOT TABLOID are not nitpicking technicalities, the the basis of how we cover (or not) current events,and human interest stories. What is not policy is WP:N, all of which (including the GNG) is only a guideline. So if it fails WP:NOT, it doesn't matter how much coverage it has. (If there should be ongoing coverage, NOT NEWS might not apply, but there is utterly no reason for assuming it.) Many things are useful to teachers that do not belong in an encyclopedia. I don't personally see how GOD fall under WP:NOT -- even if you regard it as a superstition, we cover superstitions, because we are NOT CENSORED. Lots of people are invited to see the president, most of whom are probably not notable. I do not see how race matters--the argument would be just as strong. Age can matter, in the sense that children are extremely unlikely to accomplish actual notability under such criteria as WP:PROF, or ATHLETE, (we do not accept youth competitions any more than we accept science fairs as leading to notability--one of my early losses at AfD was my argument for the notability of a very photogenic high school pole vaulter). In some fields, of course children can be notable, as for example child actors, and there have been notable child musicians. It is not a notable achievement to know Java, or several thousand WPedians would be notable, along with every commercial web programmer on earth. Hundreds of thousands of people know how to program Linux and Android. A program to display the periodic table is a worthwhile exercise for a beginner, but it's not the sort of web program which is likely to be notable. Sentimentality is justification for a tabloid, not an encyclopedia . DGG ( talk ) 18:30, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
All excellent points, DGG...however...with regards to this particular BLP, I have to ask...do we dismiss the fact that she created software that has proven beneficial to the sight impaired? Do we ignore that she is a young science innovator who is known for developing The Elementor, a low-cost Periodic table teaching aid and smartphone software app for the visually impaired which provides an interface using sound and LEDs to show the position of the valence electrons and radioactivity for a given chemical element or that she is also known for developing a medicine management app which she describes as being designed to address accidental drug non-compliancy in groups such as the blind, visually impaired, elderly and those living with Alzheimers, and to give audible information on contents and dosage as well as reordering medicines when necessary? Developing the aforementioned software is not just a "passing" fancy - it has long term effects which are unambiguously encyclopedic. It is not my intention to step on anyone's toes - especially the toes of scientists who may see her accomplishments as a fluke - but fluke or not, what she's done is notable and encyclopedic. Atsme📞📧 19:01, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
it's less than a fluke--a fluke is making a major contribution by accident or inspiration; this is not a significant contribution, but a student project. DGG ( talk ) 06:32, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
After spending hours researching beyond the "child wonder" stories, I was unable to find anything that validated the "innovative systems" she developed. After carefully weighing the arguments, I changed my !vote to D. Atsme📞📧 14:01, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed and in this case can we not WP:Ignore all rules? - Pmedema (talk) 23:43, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • It seems to me that a lot of editors are arguing "keep", based upon what one editor described as being about "Old White men of European Origins". I'm personally very sympathetic to making sure that we have coverage of young female scientists of all origins, but we are not here to WP:RGW. I trust that the closing admin will weigh policy-based arguments, as opposed to just counting vote numbers. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:57, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • And all this time I thought the "keep" votes were a result of the many arguments in support of her notability and encyclopedic value of her accomplishments which have been verified by multiple RS. I agree with you in that the single off-color remark you quoted should have no bearing on the outcome, and trust that it will not. Her notability has nothing to do with gender or origin, and everything to do with the scientific innovations she created to help the blind, visually impaired, elderly and those living with Alzheimers. Atsme📞📧 00:50, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did not say that it was the only argument. If there are reliable sources that describe the blind, visually impaired, elderly, and those living with Alzheimers, actually having benefited, then they should be cited. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:55, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ok, I haven't been able to verify that any of the instruments and/or software she developed are actually in use, but is that required for N in this particular case? I was of the mind that her notability stems from the innovative development of them. The Elementor was once available for download on iTunes, but when I tried to download it, I got a message that it is no longer available in the U.S. I haven't been able to find anything beyond published mention of either the brain teaser software, or the medicine management kit she developed. Business Insider stated with reference to The Elementor that, Her system has already been tested by two schools for the blind that are now working to incorporate her system into their classrooms, but again, I haven't been able to verify anything beyond what is stated in the sources. Atsme📞📧 05:10, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Some comments in the !vote above have been revision-deleted. Remaining comments are now non-sequiturs. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:09, 12 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Do we have a WP policy for unsigned commenters leaving accusations of deception and deceit aimed at a child and her family in a public page? If we do can someone remove the comment above please? I had decided not to comment any more but this shouldn't be a part of wikipedia Mramoeba (talk) 09:19, 11 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I just sent an email regarding this to the address on the Wikipedia:Libel page. RobP (talk) 15:26, 11 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I also started WP:ANI#Edit that should probably be rev-deled at an AfD. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:19, 11 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per sources. I think we'll be seeing more of her. White Arabian Filly Neigh 23:11, 11 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. As pointed out above, WP:BLP1E is not relevant because there are multiple events here. With respect to Lemongirl, I think she's a little harsh on some of the sources; while many of them are not up to snuff for GNG purposes, I am happy that [2], [3] and [4] are sufficiently weighty to push her past the GNG - while some of the sources are indeed from the same geographic area I don't think that such sources should be discounted when they are from otherwise sound and reliable sources. Lankiveil (speak to me) 03:27, 12 March 2017 (UTC).[reply]
Maybe you made a typo, but two of those three links go to the same source, and it's a local home-town community newspaper. Such sources are certainly reliable, as you say, but I think that there is a judgment as to whether they establish notability. We certainly wouldn't use such sources to say that a Little League baseball player was notable. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:16, 12 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry yes, one of them was supposed to be the ABC News reference. I don't agree with the characterisation of the Santa Cruz Sentinel as a "local home-town community newspaper"; it doesn't even have any little league coverage! Lankiveil (speak to me) 23:19, 12 March 2017 (UTC).[reply]
Thanks. I do agree with you about the ABC News source, as I said in my comment earlier. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:24, 12 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • DELETE - Fail WP:GNG, WP:BASIC and WP:NOT. After reviewing the article and sources I agree with the solid, policy based analysis of User:Lemongirl942, User:Tryptofish and User:DGG. Rather than repeat their concerns I concur that the article is relying on sources that are primary which do nothing to establish notability or local coverage which is not broad enough coverage for notability.
  • Per WP:IV "The general rule is that any statements made by interviewees about themselves, their activities, or anything they are connected to are primary-source and not independent material."
  • Per WP:Basic "Primary sources may be used to support content in an article, but they do not contribute toward proving the notability of a subject."
Both WP:GNG and WP:BASIC require the subject to have received "significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject." Even though there are over 25 references listed , none, with the single exception of the ABCNews source, meet this requirement.
Most importantly, WP:NOT is the basic policy the encyclopedia is built on and takes precedence over guidelines and must be met before any guidelines apply.
Although the subject appears to be an intelligent and promising young person and may be WP:TOOSOON. WP:ILIKEIT is not a valid reason to keep it. CBS527Talk 16:20, 12 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, my use of WP:TOOSOON is referring to my opinion that it is too soon for article for the subject based on the sources not that it is too soon for subject because of her age. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cbs527 (talk • contribs) 00:43, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The rev-deled comments by the IP a short way above included something that I feel comfortable repeating without violating BLP or anything else. There has been some evidence of efforts by people associated with the page subject to generate favorable coverage here and elsewhere. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:16, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Nothing to add to the perfect policy based analysis of Lemongirl942, Tryptofish and DGG.Winged Blades Godric 12:30, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - I'm simply going to say as per Winged Blades of Godric, since I also feel that Lemongirl942, Tryptofish and DGG summed it up perfectly, and stuck to policy & guidelines. Onel5969 TT me 16:22, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment directed at all editors. Because this is the sort of AfD that gets bogged down in opinions, interpretations of policy and guidelines, SPIs and possible meatpuppetry or off-Wiki canvassing, it becomes confusing to sort through various posts. Often editors will resort to shorthand when addressing the opinions of others. I do this myself, often. However, please keep in mind that simply stating that a certain number of !votes are policy-based implies that contrary !votes are not policy-based. Likewise, when stating "WP:ILIKEIT is not a valid reason to keep" without addressing the specific editor who may have !voted in such a way, paints all those who voted keep in this AfD of doing so contrary to WP:ILIKEIT. Let's remember to be specific and address actual editors when applicable. Thanks. freshacconci talk to me 18:58, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I had to re-read your comment a few times to really understand it, but no, WP:ILIKEIT is not something that is conditionally a valid argument. It is never valid (and likewise of course for WP:IDONTLIKEIT). And it is perfectly valid to describe some comments as "policy-based" if in fact they are policy-based. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:10, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You apparently still don't understand my comment, I guess, as I never said WP:ILIKEIT is a valid argument. As for the policy-based argument issues, read again what I said. I was asking that editors be specific in their comments, so as to not imply that only the "delete" !votes followed policy. freshacconci talk to me 21:27, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the clarification! It is appropriate to characterize arguments as ILIKEIT if in fact they are ILIKEIT, and to characterize them as policy-based if in fact they are policy-based. And inappropriate if they are not. But to implicitly refute "delete" comments that agree with another editor's policy-based arguments by saying that such "delete" comments reflect badly on editors who say "keep" is a rhetorical dodge. Better to demonstrate that "keep" arguments are policy-based by explaining how they are policy-based. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:43, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep – I have given up trying to evaluate consensus here now that this is a huge puddle of ideas. I'd advise for the closer to address the points made very carefully. Now that I've added this 'keep', the count is 13–13; this !vote makes this AfD even more brain-racking. In short my analysis is that this article passes GNG, 1E, most notability standards, and BLP1E.
The sockpuppetery investigation concerning Mramoeba, Boneso, and Sgerbic has been reviewed by a checkuser—albeiot not closed—finding all the accounts unrelated to each other. Thus that concern is not a problem any more, not making this AfD any easier for the closer.
There is more than one event related to her, not just the White House visit, but also 6 items in the 'Awards and recognition' section. Thus she passes ONEEVENT and BLP1E, the two policies noted in the nominator (Mifter)'s rationale. That was the cause for mainly 'keep's at the start.
Despite Lemongirl942 having some well-explained analysis, there are flaws (as pointed out below her !vote), and there are still a few references:
Detailed sources
"An 11-year-old Cupertino girl has been selected as one of 30 finalists in the Broadcom MASTERS competition to be held locally in Santa Clara County. Hari Bhimaraju, a seventh-grader at Kennedy Middle School, created a tool that helps the visually impaired study chemistry, though her explanation is much more technical. "It's a tool which helps you learn about the elements in the periodic table. So you enter in an atomic number or a chemical symbol or a chemical name, then it will provide you with all these results," she said. "With that, it will draw the atom and then step by step while writing the electron configuration so that you can understand what part of the atom is what.""
"Using hardware and software simulations and audio cues, the program helps to give the visually impaired the same opportunities as any budding scientist, something that Hari finds incredibly important. "I felt that there is so much that we're taking for granted with our eyes. I wanted to help them as well and thought it would be cool for them to also learn this." Expanding one's knowledge of the scientific world is something Hari believes should always be available to everybody. "I think science is really important because the only way to really do anything about the world around you is if you know about it," she said. "So science is a way to learn more about the world and based on that, do more, and improve on it. I think that's really cool.""
"Hari is one of 30 finalists selected for the Broadom MASTERS competition from 300 semifinalists. Originally there were more than 2,230 applicants, which were only considered because of nominations through Society for Science and the Public science fair competitions. Even being nominated for the competition requires the applicant to be in the top 10 percent of all science students in the United States, according to the competition website. MASTERS stands for Math, Applied Science, Technology and Engineering Rising Stars. Hari will participate in the competition Oct. 2-6. when she will be tested not only on her science project, but also her abilities in general STEM subjects. According to the Broadcom MASTERS website, Hari's fellow finalists are 13 girls and 16 boys from 14 states, representing 28 schools and one home school. California has the most finalists with eight, followed by Florida with five, Texas with three and two each from Minnesota, New York, and Utah."
"Twelve-year-old Hari Bhimaraju of Kennedy Middle School in Cupertino presented at the 2016 White House Science Fair. Her project, "The Elementor," is a portable, low-cost teaching tool to help visually impaired students learn the periodic table of elements."
"She also met Bill Nye the Science Guy and White House staffer DJ Patil, Chief Data Scientist at the White House. Patil also attended Kennedy Middle School in Cupertino. "He fist pumped me when he was leaving and said "Go Cougars!" which is our school mascot," Bhimaraju said. "That inspired me that I could do great things.""
"Middle-School Coder Develops Tool to Help Teach the Periodic Table to the Visually Impaired Hari Bhimaraju, a 12-year old Kennedy Middle School student from Cupertino, California, used a Raspberry Pi and Arduino to design the hardware and soft- ware for “The Elementor”, a portable, low-cost teaching tool to help visually impaired stu- dents learn the periodic table of elements. When a user enters an element’s symbol with either a regular or a Braille keyboard, pictures and animations show a model for an atom of the ele- ment, along with light-up LEDs and sound beeps to describe the positions of the element’s elec- trons. The system, which is now available for purchase, also uses a simulated Geiger counter to provide information about radioactivity, and a voice gener- ation feature speaks all details out loud. In addition to winning the 1st Place Award in Technology at the 2015 BroadcomMASTERS competition, two schools for the blind have reviewed the tool’s usefulness and are in the process of having their students use it."
"Bay Area representatives included Hari Bhimaraju, 12, from Kennedy Middle School in Cupertino. She designed "The Elementor," which is a portable, low-cost device that teaches the scientific periodic table to the visually blind."
"Growing up in the shadow of Silicon Valley, 12-year-old Hari Bhimaraju of Cupertino, California, has always been fascinated by science and technology, and she’s putting her skills to good use by creating tools for the visually impaired. “I’ve kind of just grown up in a house where it’s always been a thing to help people,” Hari told ABC News. “Especially the visually impaired.” The first project she created was a periodic table teaching tool for the visually impaired called the “The Elementor” when she was in the sixth grade. She combined her love for chemistry and atoms and used a Raspberry Pi computer to create the low-cost tool. The system uses sound and voice features, and LED lights for people with low vision to describe the position of the element’s electrons. “I started creating these tools for the visually impaired because I love learning about chemistry and I think that I want to spread that knowledge,” Hari said. “There aren’t really any great tools out there which really are specific to them.” Hari’s project was part of the sixth annual White House Science Fair this past April. She presented “The Elementor” animated teaching tool and met President Obama. “Shaking hands with the president was, of course, amazing,” she said."
"“She is so comfortable using Stack Overflow and finding solutions to her own problems,” her mom, Gayatri Bhimaraju, told ABC News. “It’s definitely very exciting and interesting to see her combine software and hardware and try to explain things to us.” For Hari’s father, Prasad Bhimaraju, her visit to the White House was an important moment for the family. “We being first generational immigrants,” Prasad told ABC News. “We came here and now our daughter is being invited to meet the president and show that innovation to the president. It’s a very proud moment for us.”
"Growing up in the shadow of Silicon Valley, 12-year-old Hari Bhimaraju of Cupertino, California, has always been fascinated by science and technology, and she’s putting her skills to good use by creating tools for the visually impaired. “I’ve kind of just grown up in a house where it’s always been a thing to help people,” Hari told ABC News. “Especially the visually impaired.” The first project she created was a periodic table teaching tool for the visually impaired called the “The Elementor” when she was in the sixth grade. She combined her love for chemistry and atoms and used a Raspberry Pi computer to create the low-cost tool. The system uses sound and voice features, and LED lights for people with low vision to describe the position of the element’s electrons."
"In keeping with her passion for science and helping the visually impaired, Hari also created a medicine management system for people living with vision loss who aren’t able to read drug container labels and package inserts. She created an iPhone app that scans the labels using a radio frequency identification system that shows the expiration dates, name of the medicine and whether it needs to be refilled. “I can make a difference with this idea to manage medicines,” Hari said. “When I actually go to blind centers and I see how thankful the people really are, and I actually meet the person, I think that makes a huge impact.” Hari’s talent has been noticed tech companies like Piper, where she is a student innovator. Piper creates DIY computer kits that kids assemble to learn about electronics. “She’s built technology before. She’s been recognized for that so she understands some of the things that go into making a product, making a device that works,” Piper CEO Mark Pavlyukovskyy told ABC News. “That feedback is invaluable for this. Working with her and mentoring her allows us to understand the DNA of younger mentors.” For Hari, it is all about learning and sharing knowledge with others. “I think it’s really exciting to be actually giving feedback to them because they’re adults, and they’re so smart,” she said. “I love being a part of that because their goals align with mine to teach kids about electronics and programming.” Hari hopes to continue working on science app development and attend Stanford University when she graduates from high school. “I think the biggest thing is I feel I can inspire other people to do things,” Hari added. “I think it’s important that you learn what’s around you and don’t just take things for granted.”"
""My favorite part was definitely the dissections! Every time we learned about a body system, we dissected it from our fetal pigs and saw how it worked. When we learned about the respiratory system, we dissected sheep lungs, because they're big and easy to see, and fetal pig lungs. Then we pumped air into them through the trachea to learn how we breathe. In total, we dissected an entire fetal pig; a sheep lung, brain, and heart; a chicken wing; and a cow eye. It was amazing to see how many countless, intricate processes — each comprised of millions of cells — have to work in perfect sync every second for a whole lifetime!""
"Her mom was skeptical of the invite: just one day’s notice via email to cross the country to watch a movie? “I got all kinds of doubts — was this spam?” Bhimaraju wondered. She called the White House organizer, who explained an earlier email encountered a glitch, and that the late-arriving invitation was genuine. Bhimaraju was still doubtful. “I said I’ll think about it.” The White House then called back to reassure her, and the Bhimarajus bought a last-minute ticket for Hari to travel solo and arranged for relatives to pick her up in D.C. After the movie and the savory popcorn that she wasn’t supposed to be eating because of her braces, Hari hopped back on a plane. “This has been my best holiday gift ever! I will forever thank our 44th president for the opportunities he has provided me and many other children all around the country,” she wrote her family and friends. Hari doesn’t do social media, but regularly emails her grandparents in India and others about her latest doings."
  • At the time that I write this comment, the SPI has not been closed, despite what you said. The CU found that the editors are not the same person, but there is ongoing discussion about some pretty strong behavioral evidence of WP:MEAT. And as for your list of sources, these are all sources that were listed and discussed above. Some of them are mirror sources, some are extremely local, and some are about all of the students who attended the White House event, without focusing on this student. Oh, and the vote count is meaningless. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:03, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • While I appreciate the ping, I agree fully with Tryptofish's response above. I still do not believe this individual is notable enough for an encyclopedia article at this time. Further, many of the sources you mention are very local, are mirrors, etc. as highlighted by Tryptofish. As this is a human interest topic it is not surprising that there is some coverage however I still believe it is insufficient for an encyclopedia article. Mifter (talk) 21:01, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
no .1, 2, 4, & 9 are local news about a local girl,
no. 3, 5, 6, and 7 is copied word for word from similar sources--they are all abc news, a syndicated news service
no. 8 is trivial
None of them are even worth using in the article, let alone showing notability. DGG ( talk ) 17:17, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@DGG: Except No. 3. and No. 5., and there is no major problem with local sources, is there? J947 18:08, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, that's not what DGG said, and it's not what I said earlier, either. We have only one source that really fulfills GNG, which is the one from ABC news. I've already explained why. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:16, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
the problem with local sources for an article such as this is that local sources about local personalities in general are likely to be indiscriminate, and this goes especially for local human interest stories about local schoolchildren. They show no general interest except in the community, which is apt to celebrate excessively any local person--especially child, or someone else with particular appeal--and that they celebrate excessively is remarkably clear with respect to this particular instance, both in the article itself and in the defense of it, with the wild exaggerations of the importance of the work. Looking at pictures of young people invited to see the president--any president--it seems obvious that pictorial appeal is a very large part of it. That's WP:TABLOID territory. DGG ( talk ) 19:55, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Hari_Bhimaraju&oldid=1137899526"
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