Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Matsuya (department store)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy keep. There were no !votes against keeping, and nom withdrawn. (non-admin closure) Rollidan (talk) 04:04, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Matsuya (department store)

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Department store. Unreferenced one line sub stub. No indication this building (company?) is notable. Fails WP:NCORP and WP:GNG. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 14:22, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 14:24, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 14:24, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy keep per WP:SKCRIT#3. Well-known Tokyo department store, with 100 hits on the Nikkei website for the Ginza store alone.[1] The laughably bad nomination claims that because the article is a one-line sub-stub it should be deleted, yet the author of said nomination apparently didn't bother to read that one line as he is confused as to whether a department store with one branch in Ginza and another 5 km away in Asakusa is a single building. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:35, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- You'll have to do better than to say WP:ITSIMPORTANT. Nothing you say contradicts my points about it being a sub-stub (for 15 years), having zero references, and totally failing NCORP. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 14:41, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There are lots of shitty articles on this website. Very few en.wiki editors know anything about Japanese topics, and those who do ... have to put up with a lot of BS from POV-pushers, loons, and worse (part of why I'm not around as much as I used to be; User:Curly Turkey seems to have left entirely). If you want to redirect the page to Department store#Japan until someone creates an article that would be worth its own page, then withdraw this nomination and fire ahead. I can't do that now that the page is under AFD. The topic is notable, with 20 times as many Nikkei hits as DHC Corporation [2] (a random Japanese company I pulled out of my hat). This is not an WP:OSE argument -- I don't know or care whether DHC has its own article, but you can't claim that this topic is not notable when you didn't even bother to read the article before making that claim. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:53, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Piotrus: You wanna withdraw your nomination now? Normally when someone opens an AFD and their argument about the article and/or topic is rebutted by the first line of the article, they have the good sense to withdraw as soon as it's pointed out. You fought back, forcing my hand, and now all the content of your opening statement is wrong.

(And FWIW, I would now not like the page to be redirected; it contains too much detail on this one department store chain to be incorporated into the main department store article, and I went to the trouble of reading popular news media online for it, so I'd rather not see the content blanked.)

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:20, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep one of the largest, oldest and most important department stores in Japan. No I don't have dozens of refs to hand, and no I'm not volunteering to spend half my weekend chasing around trying to build and source the article more fully. But SERIOUSLY WP:BEFORE. Mccapra (talk) 03:11, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above unsigned comment is from @Mccapra:. FoxyGrampa75 (talk) 17:49, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per others. FoxyGrampa75 (talk) 17:49, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, it's one of the most well-known department stores in Japan. It's clearly notable even if the article isn't as polished as other articles on Japanese department stores. Mcampany (talk) 19:36, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy keep Complete WP:BEFORE failure; learn how to use Yahoo! Japan, google.jp, and translation tools. Nate • (chatter) 00:03, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Mrschimpf: WP:BEFORE is not a valid speedy keep rationale -- the criteria are rather strict and narrow, and while I agree at least one of them does apply here (hence my own !vote above) a much, much bigger issue with the encyclopedia is people abusing the deletion policy. I think you are acting in good faith and are just mistaken, but it would really be a lot better if you clarified. (And FWIW, WP:BEFORE is actually a pretty bad reason to !vote "keep", let alone "speedy keep", since it's very difficult to prove without violating AGF. I agree it seems pretty obvious from the OP's rationale that they were extremely clumsy with this nomination, but by citing WP:BEFORE you imply that the problem is not doing a thorough source check. Not pinging Mccapra since they gave other reasons.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:43, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, I think it would be a bad idea to talk about "BEFORE" in cases like this. Matsuya may be one of the better-known Tokyo department stores, but it is still a relatively local institution, certainly not as well-known as the homonymous fast food chain nationwide. Maybe not even in the 23 Wards. For someone who doesn't read Japanese (Piotrus doesn't, and nor do most AFD !voters) that could be extremely confusing, and we don't want to leave the door open to disruptive "keepist" editors coming along and claiming that there was "no compliance with WP:BEFORE" and citing a quick Google search they did for "Tokyo Matsuya" without regard for the quality or relevance of what they find. This editor has been known to do this,[3][4] especially with Japanese topics.[5][6][7] Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:57, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I've used BEFORE as a rationale before without any complaint, and stand by it here. Nom admits not knowing what the article subject is; even the most green nominator peruses page one of Google results so they don't come off as not knowing what they're doing before the nom. A 200k+ editor for fifteen years should know the bare-bones of this process, and that they don't is a concern. Nate • (chatter) 03:28, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Not having perused the first page of Google results is not the same as not reading the article itself, and the distinction is an important one since the latter is a speedy keep criterion, while the former is not. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:57, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy keep - major historic department store of Japan. Sources are easily found even in English. I don't speak Japanese, but it took me 30 seconds to find an academic source that discusses the company in great detail, and have now expanded the article. There are dozens of solid sources available from Google books alone. The nominator has repeatedly ignored WP:BEFORE and failed to perform even perfunctory searches for sources before nominating articles for deletion, and stubbornly refused to withdraw them even after numerous sources have been presented. I've just recently dealt with the user's similarly irresponsible AFDs for Micree Zhan and Jihan Wu. I will file an ANI complaint if this behaviour persists. -Zanhe (talk) 22:11, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Withdraw. Article has been expanded with foreign language references which we can probably AGF and now at least mildly asserts the subject's notability, through I will comment that I find it very said that we cannot resolve such issues in a friendly and civil manner, instead of retorting to personal attacks and threats. The battleground mentality some display here is rather sad, particularly considering the major problem of spam Wikipedia is facing (and some spam creators have learned to game the system well, using fake offline/foreign language references, knowing that very few people will have the time and will to try to verify them). Given the surprising level of vehemence, one has to wonder if some people creating an defending this type of articles aren't undisclosed paid editors, whose livelihood is being threatened... now this is something to consider at ANI, indeed. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:52, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

First you fail to adhere to WP:BEFORE, and now you resort to WP:Casting aspersions. If you have reasons to suspect anyone of being a paid editor, go file your evidence at WP:COIN, but stop making baseless accusations just because people disagree with you. And realistically, what company is dumb enough to pay people to write a one-line stub about them? -Zanhe (talk) 04:07, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I did WP:BEFORE, but I don't read Japanese. If Japanese speaking editors couldn't have been bothered to expand this from a single, unreferenced sub-stub for 15+ years, it's time for an AfD review. The issue is addressed now, through I encourage you to think about WP:NPOV and WP:AGF. From my end, I see that you are only trying to help, I wish you'd return the favor and address me in a less combative terms. As for what companies do, well, there's also the common case of a boss telling their employee to simply write a yellow pages-like entry for Wikipedia, among many other possibilities. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:27, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Again, it seems a bit hypocritical to talk about "combativeness" and "AGF" given your above response to me and your bizarre comment about paid editors and fake foreign sources. If you hadn't responded the way you did on Friday, no one else would have needed to respond. I will try to take a look at the Sofmap case per your request on my talk page in my own time, but I am not, frankly, all that interested in articles on shops and other businesses, and I do not think it is appropriate to issue implied threats of AFDing unrelated articles that are not unsourced one-sentence sub-stubs and to ask me to fix those articles as a compromise for you withdrawing this nomination after you refused to do it when you should have done it on Friday. (BTW, as far as I've seen the bigger problem with AFDs on Japanese companies is stuff like Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Keyence, where an editor nominated the page with an attack on the company in question, and later revealed that his motivation for doing so was that his employer had told him they were a bad company.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:57, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

et me just say that I appreciate any efforts you take to expand such articles, but somebody has to do it. Unreferenced one-liners don't belong in mainspace, this stuff wouldn't be accepted in draft. See also my comments at Zanhe's talk page for more on when I am coming from. Let's try to AGF, we are all here trying to help the project. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:19, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Apples and oranges. I did it with this article, which opened the floodgates so that you could ask that I do it with an article that is not an unsourced one-liner. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:03, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Matsuya (department store)

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