Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stav

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Nomination Withdrawn. (non-admin closure) Wine Guy~Talk 09:37, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The editor who nominated this article for deletion wishes to Withdraw the nomination.
Uninvolved editors are asked to review the debate and close it as Nomination Withdrawn.
Improvements by editors that I will accept his translations of. Thanks, Niteshift36 (talk) 22:22, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Stav

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Claims to be a Norse martial art. Article has been tagged for no sources since 2007. There are 3 sources used, but they are not 3rd party sources. I can't find anything to show the art passes WP:MANOTE. Can't find any English sources and I don't speak Norwegian, so searching those is complicated by that fact. I have been unable to find significant 3rd party coverage. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. – Janggeom (talk) 02:19, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak delete Every source I find leads me back to the same non-independent sources/people. However, I did find a listing for 3 clubs in the U.S. Papaursa (talk) 00:23, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Added three 3rd party references, all Scandinavian newspapers. --Smörgåsgrill (talk) 10:08, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Since I don't speak any of those languages, can you tell us how in-depth the coverage is and what the sources actually are? Are we looking at a small newspaper from a suburb or the largest daily in the capital? I ask because one looks like a weekend paper and one looks like a sports newspaper. The Folkbladet looks like a regular newspaper to me, but I could be wrong.Niteshift36 (talk) 14:33, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unsure -- would like more information on the foreign language sources so they can be fairly evaluated. JBsupreme (talk) 16:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Svart belte was to my understanding a norwegian martial arts magazine, though their website is down so it's an archived copy of the article. Folkbladet is a local newspaper with a circulation of approximately 7200 copies, informants were two of Ivar's students. Weekendavisen has a circulation of 53500 copies and informant was one of Ivar's students. Depth in all three is about an average introduction. Stav is also supposed to be mentioned in anthropologist Richard Rudgley's book Pagan Resurrection, though I don't have access to it. Have checked Kulturhistoriskt lexikon för nordisk medeltid and to my knowledge there is no mention of sette stav there, as was earlier in the article. Found two more articles in Danish pagan magazine Valravn with limited circulation: August 2002 and August 2004, the first by the editors and the latter by one of Ivar's students, the same as in Folkbladet. Swedish Fighter Magazine had two articles in #5-2002 and #6-2002, the first written by a person who arranged the first training camp with Ivar in Sweden. As with other anthropological research, obviously the only informants of things peculiar to Stav are Ivar's family and his students, it being nameless family practices and habits (some of them common and some of them less) with martial elements. Problem is that few professional anthropologists except Rudgley (as far as I understand) have bothered. There have been one or two more newspaper articles in Sweden that I've read, but they're not available online any longer, one in Norrköpings Tidningar, same informants as in Folkbladet, and one in pagan magazine Kvaser, the latter by the same author as the first Fighter magazine article. --Smörgåsgrill (talk) 17:15, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I know that foreign language sources are acceptable, but it does present a WP:V problem for me. If I can't verify it, I can't really withdraw the nom, especially when the info is coming from the guys students. Articles written by his students, even if published in another media are shaky too. I'd also point out that WP:MANOTE says "Be careful with 'niche' publications; check they are not related to the school teaching it." Also: "A single local newspaper article is probably not enough to assert notability, but national mention with some details or multiple local sources that "make a case" for notability." I'm not sure if that is the case here. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:33, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

~~While you are a monoglot~~ While you might be a monoglot, not everyone else is, and you still have Google translate if you want to get the big picture out of the articles. I've ordered another book from the library which is supposed to mention Stav at p.280, The Way of the Warrior by Chris Crudelli, though it might take a week before it arrives. And I'd like to repeat that the only way [Apparently needed edit to clarify: for any third party writing on any subject] to learn about Stav and other cultural practices is by interviewing an informant, in this case Ivar Hafskjold ([Edit: what is known as:] Field work). Asking for sources on a particular tradition as for example family folklore not originally originating from an informant from the same family is asking for what doesn't exist, as a requirement to prove that it does. At a stretch, it is a bit like dismissing Tevfik Esenç for being the only informant and Georges Dumézil for writing in french, or dismissing Hatsumi and Tanemura both for being students of the guy in question (Toshitsugu Takamatsu) and for writing in Japanese, as well as dismissing anyone who has interviewed anyone who has ever studied for them. Re. news items, circulation in Scandinavia is per definiton smaller than in the US or India, since we're not exactly an overpopulated anthill. None of the mentioned publications have any connection to Ivar Hafskjold, and as I wrote, several of them are written by a 3rd unaffiliated party. Perhaps the article on Stav should instead be moved from the martial arts category, considering that it's not exclusively a martial art? --Smörgåsgrill (talk) 17:57, 18 February 2010 (UTC) Edit: --Smörgåsgrill (talk) 20:36, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, I was trying to be civil. I guess you gave up on that. Monoglot? Really? Just because I don't speak THAT language doesn't mean I only speak one language. So either you don't know what the word means or you are not able to think in broader terms than your own little world. I'll let you decide which one. Google translation tells me some things, but not others. Getting a book where is mentions Stav? How significant can that be? We know it has at least 280 pages, but since you explain the mention is on a specific page, that indicated 279 ages that don't talk about it. In other words, mention does not equal significant coverage. Your "field work" is called original research here and it's not allowed. Reliable, third party sources (his students aren't uninvolved 3rd parties) are what is needed. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:13, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are either intentionally misinterpreting what I wrote, or didn't bother to read it properly. Honestly, it wasn't that ambiguous. All research is originally original. Either you accept the research by a third party such as an unaffiliated author or a journalist, or you don't accept any source at all. If the latter, why ask for third party references to begin with?

I didn't read it properly? You follow it up by saying something is "originally original" (which is a ridiculous redundancy, but it's MY inability to read? It simply doesn't occur to you that you didn't present your thought properly, but want to blame it all on me. Whatever. I'm done discussing it with you. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:45, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Stav

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