Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/June 2009

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Kanagawa's 11th district

Is this article really necessary? No other such district articles exist for all of Japan. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 16:16, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

While they don't exist for Japan, articles on such districts is commonplace elsewhere (in the United States, for example). ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 18:39, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Here's an example: Category:United States congressional districts. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 18:43, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Okay, but there's a category because there's more than one. Is this one notable somehow? Are others? If so, they need articles. If it's a geographical delineation only, with no pedigree, it needs merged somewhere. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 18:35, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

This district is not more notable per se than other districts; but it’s Koizumi's dirstrict. There seem to be Koizumi fans in the en-wikipedia, there is also a singular template for the Koizumi Cabinet used in several politician articles. The geographical delineations are all included in the List of Districts of the House of Representatives of Japan.
If the only issue is that there is only one district article at the moment, I would volunteer to create a couple of them. I’m currently compiling a German version district list and there are a number of districts with interesting & notable races (the usual hanged or arrested incumbents and 2nd to 4th generation seat inheritances). --Asakura Akira (talk) 19:41, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

After having created three new articles on electoral districts it would be nice to know whether there is some kind of consensus to keep them. If you decide to throw them out eventually it would be pointless to create further district articles - even these stubbish articles take some time, after all. Any feedback (also on what to include and what not, structure, format etc.) is appreciated, Asakura Akira (talk) 17:53, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

1980s in Japan article

Well, I've done a bit of work trying to expand the article into something useful. Anyone who wants to chip in and round things out is welcome to do so. I think I'm through for now. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 23:16, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

This comment is a bit late... Thank you very much for making a decent article out of the mess that existed in this place! Cs32en 18:28, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Template:Nihongo2, now with added gimmickry

I've moved this conversation here in MOS-JA. Please do head over there and contribute. -- Hoary (talk) 05:19, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I've added an optional help parameter to {{nihongo2}}, and the template now uses {{nihongo core}}, so that all changes can be done at this template (e.g. changing the design of the help question mark at {{nihongo core/help}}). Cs32en 18:43, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

GA Reassessment of Shogun

I have done a GA Reassessment of the Shogun article as part of the GA Sweeps project. I have found the article does not currently meet the GA Criteria. My review can be found here. I will put the article on hold for one week and I am notifying the interested projects and editors of the possibility that the article will be delisted if it is not improved. If you have any questions please contact me at my talk page. H1nkles (talk) 03:03, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

I received a personal note about this, although I don't recall participating in making this a Good Article. I'll be glad to pitch in over the next week or two. Other takers? Fg2 (talk) 04:50, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Judo-related deletion discussions

Attention judo fans. Many judo-related articles have been added to Articles for Deletion. Too numerous for me to list. Interested people should check Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2009 June 2. Fg2 (talk) 11:13, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Medicinal mushrooms

Not sure if this article falls within the scope of your group, but if it does please review it for me. Jatlas (talk) 21:46, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

momijigari - change to Kōyō?

Hello. I think that momijigari should have a title change to Kōyō, as it seems to me to be the word used a good deal more by Japanese (with suru). Users are more likely to search under kouyou/koyo/Kōyō.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 10:06, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

The difficulty with that is that kōyō is just another reading of the characters for momiji (紅葉) and is not equivalent to the term momijigari. It does not describe an activity. Kōyō (fall leaves) is to momijigari (the tradition of going out to see the fall leaves and admire their colors) as hana (flowers) is to hanami (flower-viewing). LordAmeth (talk) 10:29, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

The difficulty with "momijigari" is that people don't call the viewing that anywhere near as often as Kōyō. I know that google is not a perfectly balanced corpus, but searching in English, Kōyō is far more used to describe the activity than momijigari, and in Japanese, various forms of 紅葉する get more hits than 紅葉狩り. The problem is that although momijigari may be technically more correct, it doesn't reflect usage in Japanese, or in English discussions of the phenomenon. VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 10:39, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I know it can't be used as a reason for keeping it where it is, but it may be a regional thing. I heard momijigari where I lived in Japan (Hiroshima-ken). Of course, we also had momiji manju there, so it may be a regional thing, as I said. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 17:28, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I could add a few more names I've heard this called, but this strikes me as one of those cases (like we had a while back at Ume and Sakura, for example) where we are using the Japanese name for something that's not really just Japanese, and it's coming off as a bit of a content fork. I think it should be merged to Leaf peeping or Autumn leaf color. Dekimasuよ! 00:08, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I fear the Leaf peeping article is not one of our better ones. However, the basic idea of merging to a single article on leaf-watching is probably the correct one. The basic pastime is not confined to Japan any more than (as leaf peeping would have it) it's confined to the United States. — Gavia immer (talk) 00:43, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

It is certainly a big pastime in Japan; I suspect much bigger than the US (Although that's just a Briton's guess). I think a merge is a good idea (it would improve both articles), but with koyo/kouyou etc. and momijigari as redirects. Perhaps "leaf peeping" could be changed to "Autumn leaf viewing" as a generic term, with sections for countries where it is important. VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 02:32, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Leaf peeping and Leaf peepers could use some loving care (and surgery). A three-way merger and a title that's not confined to the New England region of the U.S. might be a good idea. Fg2 (talk) 02:53, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

"Manga" topic for "Expand Japanese" template?

A large proportion (perhaps a majority) of the pages currently in the category Culture articles needing translation from Japanese Wikipedia relate to manga. This category is created via the Expand Japanese template with the switch topic=culture. In addition, a substantial (though much lower) proportion of pages in the category Articles needing translation from Japanese Wikipedia, created with the same template sans topic switch, also relate to manga. I am happy to translate some culture-related articles from Japanese, but since I am not interested in manga I prefer to leave those pages to editors with greater expertise.

I have created a new category, Manga articles needing translation from Japanese Wikipedia, which I propose should be a sub-category of Culture articles. If specifically manga-related articles could tagged with a topic=manga switch, non-manga-related culture articles could be left in the superordinate category. This would make the selection of pages to translate easier.

On the negative side, this would entail the creation of a specific switch not included (or relevant to) related templates, such as Expand Arabic etc. Still, I find the proposed switch to be worthwhile and useful. Do others have opinion on the proposal to create a topic=manga switch for Expand Japanese? (Discussion was begun at Template talk:Expand Japanese, but moved here at the advice of User:SoWhy). Cnilep (talk) 19:32, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I note that admin User:MSGJ made the addition at my request. This makes discussion somewhat moot, but opinions can still be registered here or at Template talk:Expand Japanese if anyone has strong feelings. Cnilep (talk) 19:33, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Any chance you can expand the documentation for that template so people will have a better idea of how it works? The current documentation is not sufficient. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 07:25, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Article request

Can you translate ja:ニュース系列? I don't know how proper English title should be. But the article explains how news department in Japanese networks is operated. -- 59.5.206.236 (talk) 12:47, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Translation problem

What is 張延皎并張延襲作 ? Are these (Chinese) names? I found it in connection with the Shaka Nyorai of Seiryō-ji, see here. bamse (talk) 02:23, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

They sure look like it: see Zhang (surname). No article on 張延皎 or 張延襲 in the Chinese Wikipedia. See http://beauty.geocities.jp/gyhrt256/seiryouji-syakanyorairyuuzou.html which describes them as brothers. Fg2 (talk) 04:11, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Do you have any idea how to read them? bamse (talk) 04:27, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I asked the experts. bamse (talk) 08:22, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Better late than never? Sorry, but I don't know how either the Japanese or the Chinese would read them. Fg2 (talk) 08:50, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

As I understand it - and I could be wrong, seeing as how I study Japanese and not Chinese - each character (each 字) has only one reading/pronunciation in Mandarin. So, for things like this, I often plug the characters one at a time into Wiktionary to find out the Mandarin readings, and then Google the pinyin which results. By that method, the first name appears to be Zhang Yanjiao. LordAmeth (talk) 13:15, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Mandarin is not quite that straightforward: several characters have multiple readings (although this is nowhere near as common as in Japanese), and tones can change in compounds. Jpatokal (talk) 01:00, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

The romanizations should be: Zhāng Yánjiǎo and Zhāng Yánxí (note the tone markings above the pinyin, these are required). For future reference, it is much easier to go to the Chinese-English dictionary at www.yellowbridge.com and copy and paste the characters there.--Danaman5 (talk) 21:51, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. bamse (talk) 22:41, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Good Article Reassessment Japanese grammar

I've done a GAR for Japanese grammar that would hold that the article should be demoted. Any comments welcome. G Purevdorj (talk) 10:41, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Nemiwashi

I stumbled across the article Nemiwashi and proposed merging it into Nemawashi. Fg2 (talk) 11:34, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I totally agree with you. There is no such word 'Nemiwashi' in Japanese. The article must be some mistake. Oda Mari (talk) 09:49, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I redirected Nemiwashi to Nemawashi. Fg2 (talk) 20:39, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Articles Yamanote and Shitamachi

Some days ago user Ryulong rewrote both these articles, reducing them to 4 lines stubs. Without reverting I tried to fix some of mistakes he made, and an edit war would have ensued if I hadn't given up. The article has been assessed as medium in importance, so I think it's worth some attention.

Two of his mistakes are not so serious, but the third must in my opinion absolutely be fixed, but I can't convince him or her to let me change anything.

1. He translates Yamanote as meaning literally "Hand of the mountain". The Daijisen and common sense say it means "in the direction of the mountains" or "towards the mountains". The Daijisen has (I copy and paste) 山のほう. 2. He again says the non literal meaning is "Hand of the mountain", but in effect the non-literal meaning is something like "plateau" or "high ground". Here some lines from the Kōjien.

やま‐の‐て【山の手】＃山に近い方。やまて。＃高台の土地。 [株式会社岩波書店広辞苑第六版]

And this by the way is Shitamachi. した‐まち【下町】低い所にある市街。商人・職人などの多く住んでいる町。 [株式会社岩波書店広辞苑第六版]

This second error is also not so important, but should be fixed.

3) Most importantly, he says that Shitamachi corresponds to downtown and Yamanote to uptown. This is not correct. The two terms refer, in Tokyo and elsewhere, to the altitude of an area, and not necessarily to the culture one finds there. See the Kojien definitions above. Downtown and uptown do not. Japanologist Edward Seidensticker, who studied the problem, used the terms Low City and High City for a reason. I think it's essential to make clear that the resemblance between Shitamachi and Downtown is coincidental, explain the origin of the terms and their evolution, which I did in the parts he removed.

In any case, I will let the community judge the results. Here are the articles Yamanote and Shitamachi as they are now and here the original articles before the pruning ([[1]] and [[2]]. urashimataro (talk) 05:14, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I think we need an admin to have a quiet word. His user page has him at level 1 of Japanese. I don't think he realises there are other people here who speak better Japanese. What he's doing is in good faith, but he has rather a bad attitude towards other editors. VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 05:33, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I've started discussions on the Talk:Yamanote page. Anyone interested is welcome to join. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 07:22, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I've reverted both pages to the original. Yes, they're a bit breezy and essay-like in their current form, but the correct response to this is not to delete all the content... Jpatokal (talk) 01:36, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

And that was more inappropriate concerning the fact that there is discussion on Talk:Yamanote concerning the content that was there.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 01:40, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

...and said discussion was pretty much uniformly against your deletions. But anyway, the reason I'm writing here is to notify the WP:JAPAN community that we now have a Ryulong-vs-everybody edit war at Talk:Yamanote, so other opinions would be appreciated. Jpatokal (talk) 02:13, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

There is no such uniformity. And even if there was, that does not mean that all the fixes I had made other than the deletions should have been undone. Right now there's a consensus to merge the two articles into one, such that the old content which has no place on two separate articles, has a home. But that is something for the talk page of the articles and not here.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 02:26, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

It is entirely appropriate here because this is where the Japan experts look first, and as there is clearly a dispute it helps if they can be called to make the article better. (Your content deletes were based on ignorance of the subject, as there is a body of social research covering the the terms). Anyway, myself and another editor are working on a sandbox version of a combined article. We'll put it up soon and I'll put a note here about it.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 02:55, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Satsuma Clan

User:Bukubku pointed out to me here that there was a stub article called "Satsuma Clan." The content was so brief, and potentially incorrect, as to be meaningless, and in any case, I personally have never heard of there being a Satsuma clan. Assuming this to be a mistaken and ill-informed attempt to cover the Shimazu clan, I decided to be bold and make it a redirect there.

Just to be safe, I'm commenting here. Was there a Satsuma clan (薩摩氏・薩摩家)? Please look at the former content of this stubby article here, and see if it needs to be restored, or expanded, or left as a redirect to Shimazu clan. Thank you. LordAmeth (talk) 15:13, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I think the page should be deleted, Shimazu clan is family name who ruled Satsuma domain. If we select the way of redirect, other ruler clans should be redirected by their ruled place name clan also.--Bukubku (talk) 08:01, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Reading help

Anyone want to take a stab at a reading for this bridge name: 威別橋, ??-betsu-hashi. It is a bridge on the Shizunai River. Thanks in advance! imars (talk) 12:55, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

The first kanji is read as "i", so that would be Ibetsu bridge then, I suppose. At first I thought maybe this could be one of those regional place names that can be read as something that seemingly fairly to completely different from the actual kanji used, but this is Hokkaido, where many place names just have unrelated kanji that read as something similar to the original Ainu name, so I'm, let's say, 75% certain Ibetsu is the right reading. TomorrowTime (talk) 13:47, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

It must be 威別大橋/Ibetsu ōhashi. See the トラス橋 in green. Then click the name and see the photograph. [3] Oda Mari (talk) 14:10, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

It is definitely the Ibestu Ōhashi. You can see a picture of it here: 威別大橋（いべつおおはし）. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 21:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Ranks in the Scout Association of Japan

Can you folks help with the nihongo names for the awards? Thank you! Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 13:23, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Translation troubles

Working on User:Bamse/Shin-Yakushi-ji I got stuck with the following problems:

jiryō hyakuman goku (寺領百万石) = Jiryō (province/ han) + net worth 1 million koku. If a temple gets the jiryō hyakuman goku "presented", does this mean, that the temple gets all (or part) of the income from the province? Is this meaning correct and how can I express it in normal English?
JAANUS says that the seven Buddhas of healing (七仏薬師, shichibutsu yakushi) "were thought to be efficacious in appeasing the revengeful spirits of fallen political figures implicated in social calamities". What does this mean? I know that Yakushi are thought to be efficacious for healing, but just cannot understand the above sentence. Could somebody explain to me in other words what the shichibutsu yakushi are good for? I am interested since the temple was founded because of a disease of a "political figure" (emperor).
What's a good literal translation of fushin ga tsujichō (不審ケ辻町) which matches the ghost story in User:Bamse/Shin-Yakushi-ji#Belfry?

Thanks for any suggestions. bamse (talk) 21:01, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

For #1, jiryō hyakuman goku, how about "temple holdings assessed at one million koku"? I would avoid "province" and han unless the holdings consisted of an actual province such as Yamato Province or a han headed by a daimyo in the Edo period. The meaning of a grant of land like this probably varied in the extreme from one historical period to another, and according to the particulars of the individual case; the temple would have received some share of the economic output of the holding, but how much, it's hard to say.

For #2, it sounds similar to the origin of the Kitano Tenman-gū (which of course is Shinto, but the underlying idea sounds the same). Sugawara no Michizane was ousted in a power struggle, and when he died, disasters that happened were attributed to his spirit. To appease his spirit they built the shrine. So apparently the temple you're discussing viewed the spirit of the fallen political figures as diseased and figured that the healing Buddha was the right one to invoke.

Those are just my impressions. Fg2 (talk) 23:28, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

The Japanese Wikipedia has an article 寺社領, but it's very sketchy and doesn't cover the Edo period. Fg2 (talk) 23:47, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

For #1. According to this page, 寺領百万石 means an area of land which could possibly produce 百万石 rice and 寺領 is also called 朱印地/shuinchi. An official page of 新薬師寺 says Ieyasu gave them the land. Oda Mari (talk) 05:34, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. But did they hold the land the way the Maeda Clan held the Kaga Domain? Or did they have a lesser control over it, and income from it? Fg2 (talk) 05:47, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm getting confused. That official page might be a mistake. 百万石 sounds too large for a temple. I have no idea how to interpret that 百万石. I found an interesting page of 増上寺. See 江戸～明治 section. They had 一万石 land but they were called 社格(value of the temple?)百万石. Oda Mari (talk) 07:52, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. I think I will leave out the mysterious 寺領百万石 for the time being. I still wonder about 2. In the case of Kitano Tenman-gū, the disasters happened after the death of Sugawara no Michizane. Emperor Shōmu however was still alive when the temple was built. Does "fallen" in the JAANUS definition mean "either dead or ill"? bamse (talk) 12:05, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

寺領百万石 sounds like an overstatement to me. I don't believe this temple was as powerful as Kōfuku-ji in Nara or the Maeda clan in Kanazawa. The word "fallen" would most likely mean "dead." I've found some books on the temple on Amazon. These may be useful.Shinkansen Fan (talk) 13:50, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

『古寺巡礼奈良4　新薬師寺』 by 井上靖, 塚本善隆監修, 杉本秀太郎, 中田聖観著淡交社 2001 ISBN-13: 978-4473011053
『大和の古寺〈4〉新薬師寺・白毫寺・円成寺・大安寺』 by 西川新次, 米田太三郎,矢沢邑一, 岡本茂男岩波書店 (2009/04) ISBN-13: 978-4000083942

New university stub templates

The following stub templates have been created and should be used as applicable instead of {{Japan-university-stub}}:

Please let me know if you have any questions. ···日本穣^? · Talk to Nihonjoe 10:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Good work. however, there are some misconceptions. Nihonjoe, do you want to create each prefectures National University stub? If is it right?

You have to create Kōbe-university-stub(Hyōgo prefecture). Hyōgo university is private university. Shinshu-university-stub(Nagano prefecture). Nagano university is private university. Ryukyus-university-stub(Okinawa prefecture). Okinawa university is private university.

There are some former Imperial Universities. You have to create Kyushu-university-stub(Fukuoka prefecture). Fukuoka university is private university. Nagoya-university-stub(Aichi prefecture). Aichi university is private university. Tohoku-university-stub(Miyagi prefecture). Miyagi university is prefectural university.

Ishikawa university is not exist in Ishikawa prefecture, there is Kanazawa university.--Bukubku (talk) 08:50, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

There's no misconceptions. The stubs are sorted by location (in this case, by prefecture where the university or college is located). The name of the university or college is irrelevant. ···日本穣^? · Talk to Nihonjoe 09:00, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, the stubs are good.--Bukubku (talk) 09:09, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

New rail stub templates

The following stub templates have been created and should be used when applicable:

{{Japan-rail-company-stub}}
{{Japan-rail-line-stub}}

Please let me know if you have any questions. ···日本穣^? · Talk to Nihonjoe 10:39, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

There is also {{Japan-cable-line-stub}} for ropeways and funiculars. ···日本穣^? · Talk to Nihonjoe 03:32, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Ronald P. Dore page up

I've started a still rather stubby page for the highly influential British Japan researcher Ronald P. Dore. I was surprised there wasn't one already. Please dive in all those who wish; I'll add more later. VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 05:13, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

New help page

I split off Help:Installing Japanese character sets from Help:Japanese. Do we want to change the {{nihongo}} templates to point to that page now? ···日本穣^? · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:43, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

GA Reassessment of The Rape of Nanking (book)

I have conducted a reassessment of this article as part of the GA Sweeps process. I have found one minor issue which needs addressing, you can see the review page at Talk:The Rape of Nanking (book)/GA1. Thanks. Jezhotwells (talk) 13:33, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

GA reassessment of Underground (stories)

I have conducted a reassessment as part of the GA Sweeps process and found some concerns, which you may see at Talk:Underground (stories)/GA1. Thanks. Jezhotwells (talk) 13:47, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Nishida Shunei

The article Nishida Shunei survived an Articles for Deletion discussion. If anyone's interested in formatting it for Wikipedia and the Japan project, there's plenty to be done. Fg2 (talk) 22:25, 29 June 2009 (UTC)