Talk:rose

Etymology

I don't want modify the etymology entry yet, but the etymonline.com says:

O.E. rose, from L. rosa (cf. It., Sp. rosa, Fr. rose; also source of Du. roos, Ger. Rose, Swed. ros, etc.), probably via It. and Gk. dialects from Gk. rhodon "rose" (Aeolic wrodon), ult. from Pers. *vrda-. But cf. Tucker: "The rose was a special growth of Macedonia & the Thracian region as well as of Persia, & the Lat. & Gk. names prob. came from a Thraco-Phrygian source." Aramaic warda is from O.Pers.; the modern Pers. cognate, via the usual sound changes, is gul, source of Turk. gül "rose." The ultimate source of all this may be PIE *wrdho- "thorn, bramble." Used of a color since 1530. In English civil wars of 15c., the white rose was the badge of the House of York, the red of its rival Lancaster. Rose-water is attested from 1398. Rose-colored "optimistic" is first recorded 1854. In the fig. sense, bed of roses is from 1593. Rosy in the sense of "cheerful" is first recorded 1775; meaning "promising" is from 1887. Rose of Sharon (Song of Sol. ii.1) is attested from 1611 and named for the fertile strip of coastal Palestine. The flower has not been identified; used in U.S. since 1847 of the Syrian hibiscus.

See also

Proto-IE: *wordh-, *word- at the Tower of Babel project's database.--Imz 17:39, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

More cognates?

I also wonder whether the Slovene vrtnica (sl) derives naturally from the proto-IE root. The similarity is amazing! That would match well the "Macedonia & Thracia" strory above.--Imz 17:47, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Translations of some related Slovene words:

roža=flower;
vrtnica=rose;
vrt=garden;
-ica=feminine ending for lots of words;
gartroža=very rare and old name for rose (probably originates from German word "Gartenrose"); 
trn=thorn.

Conlibae M. Rep 17:07, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for the explanation! That's very interesting. Also posted an expanded answer based on your information at Etymology of Slovene vrtnica “rose”. Can it be the Slavic reflex of PIE *wr̥dʰos “sweetbriar”? at Linguistics.StackExchange.--Imz (talk) 03:39, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Rose etymology

I am familiar with the official etymology (from old Persian "*vrda") of the word "rose", although most of the dictionaries do state that its "… of uncertain origin, perhaps from Old Persian *vrda…".

However, we must remember this: In linguistics, the symbol * before a word, declares a hypothetical, not recorded word. For this reason the symbol * is used to indicate the hypothetical IE and PIE words. Please remember: hypothetical; hence: guessed words that have never been recorded.

Now if we follow some basic principles of etymology when comparing two words, we’ll come to the following facts:

1. Observing history:

Latest research proves that the oldest historical recording of the word "rose" is the Mycenaean word FRODON and the derivatives of it -FRODE, FRODOEN, FRODIOS, etc. - of the Linear B scripts (1500-1200 BCE) and not the hypothetical Old Persian "*vrda" (550-350 BCE).

2. Observing geography:

The Aeolic dialect has common characteristics with the Mycenaean dialect, from which obviously the word FRODON is borrowed. The Aeolians migrated from mainland Greece (western Macedonia and Thessaly) to the islands of NE Aegean sea (Lesbos, Tenedos etc.) and the north coast of Minor Asia around the 10th cent. BCE, when the first elements of the Aeolians (and their dialect) were found there.

3. Observing phonetics:

The Greek letter F -"digamma"- which has the sound of a soft "v" in the Aeolic dialect, would make the word sound "VRODON".

4. Observing cognation:

There are more cognate forms of the word RHODON in the Greek language than in all other languages together.

Furthermore: The etymomology of the Ancient Greek ρόδον (from roe + odme) indicates that the Latin "rosa" most likely derives from the Ancient Greek ροή + οσμή (roe, osme), where οσμή (osme) is a later form of the older οδμή (odme).

Therefore, there is not enough to justify that the word FRODON derives from "*vrda", but there is enough to justify that, most likely, it’s the opposite: FRODON-VRODON > Old Persian "*vrda", Armenian "vard", Latin "rosa", etc.Kassios 18:14, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I will assume (and ask you to verify) that the argument here applies to the flower name only, and perhaps to the color but not necessarily. I know from my own onomastic researches that the personal name Rose is beleieved to derive from Germanic names beginning in Hros-, and was later confused with the flower name. However, the story is thoroughly complicated by Italian uses that show up much earlier than they have any right to do. --EncycloPetey 16:07, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's about the flower name.Kassios 18:14, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

EncycloPetey, as the Danish section just appeared, probably the answer is in the Danish verb rose, meaning to praise, derived from Old Norse hrósa. Rose is perhaps from this source, as innumerable amount of English words are loanwords from Old Norse. The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 14:05, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

That's all very pretty but at least almost 10 years later I don't think Wikimedia allows for original research at all. Oops. 2001:8A0:4304:AA01:5073:403B:729:631B 19:2,4 14 November 2015 (UTC)

You are confusing us with Wikipedia. This is not Wikipedia. Here, original research is not only permitted, it is encouraged. —Stephen ^(Talk) 22:08, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Possible missing noun senses

Chambers 1908 has (i) "any of various plants resembling the true rose" (this is a bit nebulous! and we do already list a number of plants, but perhaps not as broad as this criterion); (ii) "a rosette" (again, hard to be sure which exact sense is meant, but I imagine it's the ribbon decoration thing). Equinox ◑ 18:51, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Further missing senses from Chambers 1908: "an ornamental tie" (some kind of clothing decoration?) and "erysipelas". Equinox ◑ 14:00, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

rose colour

Chambers 1908 defines it as "the pink colour of many roses" and "fancied beauty or attractiveness". Equinox ◑ 20:26, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Germanic not Latin

Most of these say they derive from Latin for a flower. However, many are supposed to be from the Germanic "praise, fame, glory". cf: Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/hrōþiz ¬¬¬¬ — This unsigned comment was added by 79.106.209.190 (talk) at 10:39, 11 February 2022 (UTC).