Gas Turbine control - Hardware Part Trip of L4

When Hardware causes the trip of L4

By Neo
CSA:

on 19 October, 2014 - 8:02 am

Sorryforbeabsentforabouttwoweeks.
"So,let'sgetafterfinishingourL4journey.Wehaveotherthingstodiscuss(TREGandTRPG,specifically)."
CSA,whereshouldistart?Ineedyourguidance.
Ithinktherearesoftwaretrippartandhardwaretrippart.Allwediscussedbeforeareaboutprotectiontripin<Q>
core,thatissoftwaretrip,andtheprotectiontripinVPROcardisthehardwaretrip.AndVPROworkswithVTUR.
TRPGistheterminalboardofVPROandTREGistheterminalboardofVTUR,andTREGprovidesthepositiveside
ofthedcpowertothesolenoids,andTRPGprovidesthenegativeside.
ThatisalliknowabouthardwareparttripofL4.
Bestregards!
Neo

By CSA
on 19 October, 2014 - 12:31 pm
1 out of 2 members thought this post was helpful...
neo,
Welcomeback;I'vebeenalittlebusy,also,soithasn'tbeenaproblem.
So,I'mtakingitthatyou'resatisfiedwiththeL4rung(<Q>applicationcode)discussion(s)?
I'mreallycurious,though,tofinishthestartingmeansthing.Yourstartedthatthreadsayingyou'dbeenaskedtolook
attheapplicationcode,anditseemedtobebecauseofanissue.Ifyou'veaskedGEfortheirinputonthematter,it
wouldbereallyhelpfulifyoucouldsharethatwithus.Ifthere'ssomethingtobelearnedI'malwayslookingtoaddto
mymemorybanks.Ifthere'saproblem,thenit'ssafetosaytheremaybeotherplantswithasimilarproblem.So,can
wefinishthatbeforewegotoomuchintothisthread?
Also,IwouldliketoyoutolookoveryourMarkVISystemGuide,GEH6421,andbesureyourassociationofthe
TREGwiththeVTUR,andtheTRPGwiththeVPRO,arecorrect.
IwillsaythattheVTURandtheVPROs(inaTMRpanel)worktogethertopowerthefuelstopvalve(s).But,Ithink
weneedtodoublecheckwhatworkswithwhat.
TheassociationsareshowninboththeVTURandVPROsectionsofthemanualalmostthesamedrawingsineach.
So,thatshouldhelp.
And,please,let'sfinishthestartingmeansthread.

By Neo
on 26 October, 2014 - 10:13 am
1 out of 2 members thought this post was helpful...
CSA:
>So,I'mtakingitthatyou'resatisfiedwiththeL4rung(<Q>applicationcode)discussion(s)?
CSA,ithinkishouldnotbesatisfiedwithitifiwannatobeaknowledgeablemanlikeyou.Butidon'tknowhowto
continue.SoithinkmaybeitwouldbebettertocoverhardwarepartofL4first.
>I'mreallycurious,though,tofinishthestartingmeansthing.Yourstartedthatthreadsayingyou'dbeenaskedto
lookattheapplicationcode,anditseemedtobebecauseofanissue.Ifyou'veaskedGEfortheirinputonthematter,
itwouldbereallyhelpfulifyoucouldsharethatwithus.Ifthere'ssomethingtobelearnedI'malwayslookingtoadd
tomymemorybanks.Ifthere'saproblem,thenit'ssafetosaytheremaybeotherplantswithasimilarproblem.So,
canwefinishthatbeforewegotoomuchintothisthread?
CSA,iwouldliketoask,butitisbeyondmyresponsibility.anyway,wedon'thavethatproblemthatiscausedby
L14HTthing.Iwillkeepthisprobleminmind.ifihavethatanswer,iwillrespondatfirsttime.

BTW,ifindL14HTisalsousedingasfuelleakagetest.
>Also,IwouldliketoyoutolookoveryourMarkVISystemGuide,GEH6421,andbesureyourassociationofthe
TREGwiththeVTUR,andtheTRPGwiththeVPRO,arecorrect.
IcheckedthatandfindTREGistheterminalboardofVPRO,whileTRPGistheterminalboardofVTUR.
CSA,howtogetabetterunderstandingofhardwarepartofL4,please.
Bestregards!
Neo

By CSA
on 27 October, 2014 - 10:19 am
1 out of 2 members thought this post was helpful...
Okay,Neo,
It'simportanttonotethatthefuelstopsolenoidsofGEdesignheavydutygasturbineswithMarkVIturbinecontrol
systemsareconnected"between"theTRPGandTREGcards.Thatis,onesideofthefuelstopsolenoidisconnected
toaTRPGcard,andtheothersideofthesolenoidisconnectedtotheTREGcard.
Thefuelstoplogicsignals(likeL20FG1XandL20FL1X,forexample)controlthePrimaryTripRelays(PTRs)which
areontheTRPGsothetripsfromapplicationcodeintheMarkVIarewhatcontrolsthePrimaryTripRelays.
Lookingatthetwologicsignals,onecanseehowL4willallowenergizationofthesolenoids,andhowthe"loss"of
L4(whenatriporshutdownremember,L4TorL94T)deenergizesthefuelstopsolenoidlogicsignalsanddropsout
theassociatedPTRs.AndwhenenergizedthePTRssupplythenegativesideofthe125VDCtothefueltripsolenoids.
(ThefueltripsolenoidsofGEdesignheavydutygasturbinesmustbeENERGIZEDtoallowfueltogettotheturbine,
andwhentheyaredeenergizedtheystoporpreventtheflowoffueltotheturbine.)
L4_XTP(theMasterProtectiveCrosstrip)controlstheEmergencyProtectiverelaysalongwith:
1)theseven(7)possiblediscretetripinputstotheTRPG;
2)theEStoppushbuttoninputstotheTRPG;
and,
3)theEmergencyElectricalOverspeedtripsinthe<P>core.
TheEmergencyTripRelays(ETRs)controlthepositivesideofthe125VDCthatisappliedtothefuelstopsolenoids.
WhenenergizedtheETRssupplythepositivesideofthevoltagetothecoil.(Again,thefuelstopsolenoidsofGE
designheavydutygasturbinesmustbeENERGIZEDtoallowfueltogettotheturbine,andwhentheyarede
energizedtheystoporpreventtheflowoffueltotheturbine.)
Whenboththenegativeandpositivesidesofthe125VDCisappliedtothetwoleadsofafuelstopsolenoiditwillbe
energized.Thelossofeitherthenegativeorthepositivesidesofthe125VDCvoltagetoafuelstopsolenoidislost
(wheneitherthePTRsORtheETRsaredeenergized)thefuelstopsolenoidwillnolongerbeenergizedandthefuel
flowtotheturbinewillbestopped.
L4istheinverseofL4_XTPwhichmeansthatinordertogettheETRstopickupitmeansthat:
1)alloftheuseddiscreteinputsmustbeCLOSED;
2)theEStopPushbuttonsconnectedtotheTRPGmustallbeCLOSED;
3)theEmergencyOverspeedTripdetectionmustbeunlatched
and,
whenL4_XTPgoestoalogic"0"(whenL4goestoalogic"1")theETRswillbeenergizedandthepositivesideofthe
125VDCwillbeappliedtothefuelstopsolenoidvalves.
ThePTRcontactsandtheETRcontactsarearrangedinatwooutofthreefashion,likeso:

<R>
<S>
L20FG1X
<X>
<Y>
-125 VDC -------| |----| |----------/\ /--------| |----| |------- +125VDC
| <S>
<T>
|
\/
| <Y>
<Z>
|
---| |----| |------| |----| |---| <R>
<T>
|
| <X>
<T>
|
|--| |----| |------| |----| |---Whileit'snotlikelythatasinglecontrolprocessororasingleprotectiveprocessorwilltrytotriptheturbine,itis

possibleanddoesveryrarelyoccur(andisaccompaniedbyDiagnosticAlarms,andinsomecases,aProcessAlarmor
two).But,thisisalldonein"hardware"usingtracesontheTRPGandTREGcardsandcontactsofthePTRandETR
relays.So,thisishowasoftwaregenerated/detectedtripwilleventuallycauseaturbinetrip(byremovingeitheror
bothofthe125VDCsidesofthepowersupplytothefuelstopsolenoid).Again,thePTRsareontheTRPGandthe
ETRsareontheTREG.It'sthiscombinationofsoftwareandhardwarethatmakestheSpeedtronicsoreliable(because
thisisusedinonewayoranotherinallthedigitalSpeedtronicturbinecontrolsystems,fromMarkIVthroughthe
MarkVIe).
It'salsoimportanttonotethattheemergencyoverspeedprotectioninthe<P>core(performedbyeachoftheVPROs)
isalsoaspeedrateofchangeprotection.So,ifthespeedincreasesreallyfast,orifitdecreasesreallyfast,thenthe
overspeeddetectionwillbeactuatedandtheETRforthatVPROwilltrip.Isaid"...theETRforthatVPROwill
trip...."becausetherearethreeindependentspeedpickups,onetoeachoftheVPROs,sothatifonespeedpickupfails
whentheturbineisrunningthentheVPROthatspeedpickupisconnectedtowilldeenergizeit'sETRrelay.Speed
pickupsdon'tusuallyallfailatthesametime,butwhentheydofailtheyusuallyfailintermittentlyatfirst,whichcan
drivetheVPROit'sconnectedtocrazygeneratingalotofnuisancealarms(ProcessandDiagnostic).But,that's
betterthantrippingtheturbine,anditisanindicationthatthespeedpickupisfailingorhasfailed.And,atleastoneof
theProcessAlarmsthatwillbeannunciatedwillbean"overspeed"alarmbecauseeitherthespeedfeedbackis
intermittentlychangingveryquickly,orithasdroppedprecipitouslytozero,andeitherofthoseconditionswillactuate
theoverspeeddetectionlogicbecauseofasuddenchangeintherateofspeedincreaseand/ordecrease.
NextreplywillcoverhowtheEStopP/Bs"control"theETRs.But,ifyouwanttoanticipatethediscussion,havea
lookatthedrawingsintheSystemGuidemanual.
Finally,I'mno"wizard"orsuperintelligentperson.Ihadthegoodfortunetospendalotofyearswaitingfor
constructionpersonneltofinishinstallingturbines(includingthewiringandfielddevices)andusedthattimetostudy
thedrawingsandmanuals.Iwasalsofortunateenoughtohavehadtheabilitytocontactknowledgeableindividuals
whocould"fillinthegaps"formeearlyinmycareer,andusedthattoformmy"thinking"anddeductionskills.
There'sstillaLOTIhavetolearn,andaLOTIhaven'tseen,butusingthephilosophiesI'vecometolearnand
understandit'susuallynottoodifficulttounderstandwhyorhowsomethingsaredonethewaytheyareevenifthey
seemtobeveryconvoluted.Aswe'velearned,somethingsareactuallyverysimplethoughtheyappeartobevery
complicated.
ThereareMANYwaystoenhanceandimprovethereliabilityandavailabilityofcontrolsystemsnotjustthisway.
But,I'vecometoknowthatthemethodsemployedbyGE(eventhoughtheyareNOTwelldocumented,iftheyare
documentedatall)areamongthesimplestandmostrobustinthepowergenerationindustryagain,evenifatfirst
glancetheyseemverycomplicated.Itjusttakesawillingness(andthetime!)todigintotheavailabledocumentation
andmanualsandfollowsignalsthroughthecircuitsandlogic.That'soneofthereallygoodthingsaboutGE
Speedtronicturbinecontrolsystemstheyareusuallymuchbetterdocumentedthanmostothercomparablesystems.
BythatImeanthattheremostofthealgorithmsand"blocks"usedhaveverysimplediagramswhichcanbeusedto
understandtheflowofsignalsthroughthem.MostoftheothercontrolsystemsIencounterjustuseemptyrectangles
withsomeinputsandoutputs(andtheinputsandoutputscanbeoneitherside,toporbottomoftheemptyrectangle)
torepresentfunctionsoralgorithms.Onehastofindamanualtounderstandwhathappensinsidetheemptyrectangle,
andthat'snotalwayseasytodobecausemanyofthedescriptionsdon'tincludeand"logic"diagrams,justwords.
Iappreciateyourkindwords,but,theyareunwarrantedexcepttotheextentthatIspentagoodmanynightsand
weekendsinhotelroomsallaroundtheworldstudyingandmarkingupdrawingsandredrawingdiagrams(allunpaid)
inordertoimprovemyunderstanding.BecauseofthekindandhelpfulpeopleIencounteredearlyinmycareerasa
FieldEngineerItrytohelpasmanypeopleasIcantohelpdevelopandimprovetheirunderstandingbecausehadI
nothadtheextremelygoodfortunetohaveworkedwiththosepeopleIwouldhaveleftthisfieldveryquickly,because
ofthepoortrainingIreceivedearlyonandthedearthofdocumentationavailable.So,reallyI'mjustrepayingadebtof
gratitudefortheknowledgeandguidanceIreceivedearlyon.So,nowmorethanksarerequired.Idoappreciate
positiveaswellasnegativefeedback(whenaccompaniedbyanexplanationofwhatcouldhavebeendonebetter!)
butlet'sjustkeepthekindwordstofeedback,positiveand/ornegative.
Also,ifyouhaveotherquestionsorfunctionsyouwanttounderstandpleaseopenathreadandwecantrytohelp
explainthem.

By Neo
CSA:

on 28 October, 2014 - 7:23 am

Ireadandrereadyourresponse,anditreallyhelps!Andthanksforyourdrawings.
Followingyourguidance,irefertoTREGterminalboarddrawingsintheSystemGuideManual.

Accordingtoyourreplytherearefourconditionsthatthefuelsolenoidwilllosspower:
1)Protectionalgorithmin<Q>core;
2)Overspeedprotectionin<P>core;
3)7tripinterlockdigitalinputs;//ithinkthis7digitalinputsfinallygoesto<Q>corethroughVPRO,andwhen
anyoneislogic0,theturbinetrips.
4)Estop
Idon'tunderstandwhytherehastobethreeETRrelaystoformonegroupforoneVPRO(R,S,orT).
NextreplywillcoverhowtheEStopP/Bs"control"theETRs.But,ifyouwanttoanticipatethediscussion,havea
lookatthedrawingsintheSystemGuidemanual.
CSA,iamlearningtoreadhardwaredrawings.IthinkifEstopPBispusheddown,thenthepowerofETRwilllost.
thusfuelsolenoidiscutoffelectricity,andtheGTtrips.
Iamnotsurewhetheritisrightbutitired!
CSA,ithinkiamfortunetofindthisforum,andencounteryou,andyourreplyhelpsmealot.Withoutyourhelp,iam
notsurewhereiam.TheGTcontrolseemssodifficulttolearnformeatverybeginning.
Ithinkthereisalongwaytogo,butiamwillingtocontinue.
Thanksalot!
Bestregards!
Neo

By CSA
on 28 October, 2014 - 2:41 pm
1 out of 2 members thought this post was helpful...
Neo,
I'lltrytoansweryourquestions,butI'mnotclearonatleastoneofthem.
Yes;youarebasicallycorrectthattherearefourbasicwaystotriptheturbineviatheSpeedtronicturbinecontrol
system:
1)Applicationcode(highhighvibration;lossofflame;exhaustovertemperature;primaryelectricaloverspeed;etc.)
2)Emergencyelectricaloverspeed(<P>corewhichisactuallythreeindependent,butassociatedprocessors,
performingatwooutofthreevoteonoverspeed),includingthe(nonadjustable)speedrateofchangedetection/trip
3)Seven(7)discretetripinputstoTRPGwhichopentotrip;rememberthesecannotbeinverted,andtheycannotbe
forcedinToolbox/ToolboxST.
4)EstopP/Bs
>Idon'tunderstandwhytherehastobethreeETRrelaystoformonegroupforoneVPRO(R,S,orT).
ThereareonlythreeVPROs,BUTtherearemultipleETRrelaysforeachof<X>,<Y>and<Z>whichare
independentof,butassociatedwith<R>,<S>and<T>).IfyounoticeonthedrawingsintheSystemGuide,thereare
threePTRsforeachofthesolenoidoutputs(20FG1;20FL1)andeachgroupofthreeisdrivenbyauniquelogic
signal(L20FG1X;L20FL12X,respectively).However,fortheETRs,thereisreallyonlyonelogicsignal:L4_XTP,
butthereneedstobemultipleoutputs(oneforeachfueltripsolenoidcircuit).So,that'swheytherearemultipleETRs
foreachof<X>,<Y>and<Z>.Theywillallbeenergizedwhenthesecond,thirdandfourthconditionsareall
satisfiedandtheywillalldeenergizewhenanyoneofthesecond,thirdorfourthconditionsarenotsatisfied.So,it's
notnecessarytohavemultiplelogicsignalstodrivetheETRs;asingleonewilldoL4_XTP.Andthisbasicallysays
theETRscan'tbeenergizedunlessL4isenergized.
WithoutbeingabletopostadrawingfromtheSystemGuidethisisgoingtoberatherdifficult,and,becausethereare
SOmanyrevisionsofGEH6421outthereIdon'tknowwhichrevisionyou'relookingatsoIcan'ttellyoutolookata
specificpageordrawing,butheregoesanyway.
GofindtheTREGcardsectioninVol.IIofGEH6421,andfindadrawingwhichshowsthe'TripInterlocks,andTrip
Solenoids.'Atthelowerrightcornerofthecardarethesevendiscretetripinputs(called"interlocks")andtheEStop
P/Binputs.Let'sstartwiththeEStopP/Bs.WhenalloftheEStopP/Bsareclosedthecircuitismadeup(andifallof
theavailableinputstotheboardaren'tusedbyindividualEStopP/BsorstringsofEStopP/Bsthenjumpersmustbe
usedto"simulate"closedinputs)thenthethreerelaysK4X,K4YandK4Zareenergized.Notethatthevoltagesource,

P28VVpassesthroughtheEStopP/BsandthroughthecoilssothatanyopenEStopP/Bcircuitinterruptstheflow
of28VDCtotheK4X,K4YandK4Zcoils.
DirectlyabovetheEStopP/BsarethethreegroupsofETRrelays(KX1,KX2,KX3;KY1,KY2,KY3;KZ1,KZ2,
KZ3).ThoseETRrelaycoilsare28VDCcoils,andK4X,K4YandK4Zallow28VDCtogettoonesideofeach
groupofthoseETRcoils.TherectangleontheothersideoftheETRrelaycoilswith"RD"insidetherectangle,isthe
RelayDriver.GEprimarily"sinks"DCrelaycoilstogroundto"energize"themmeaningthattheRelayDriver,when
actuatedbythelogicdrivingit,connectsthecoiltogroundandsincetheothersideofthecoilhas28VDCconnected
toit(throughK4X,K4YorK4Z)theETRcoilswillthenbeenergized.
Conversely,iftheRelayDriveris"sinking"theETRcoilstogroundandoneoftheEStopP/Bopens,thenK4X,K4Y
andK4Zwilldeenergizeandtheircontactsproviding28VDCtotheETRcoilswillopen,andtheETRrelaycoils
willdeenergizeremovingthepositive125VDCfromthefueltripsolenoidoutputs(allofthem).
So,theclosedEStopP/BcontactsallowK4X,K4YandK4Ztopickup,whichallows28VDCtobeappliedtoone
sideofeachoftheETRcoilgroups.WhentheRelayDriverisenergized(whenL4_XTPisalogic"0"ANDthereis
nooverspeed(ortherateofchangeofspeedisn'texcessive)thentheRelayDriverwillbeactuatedwhichwill"sink"
theothersideoftheETRrelaycoilstogroundwhichwillallowtheETRrelaystopickupandapplypositive125VDC
toonesideofthefueltripsolenoids.
Now,let'slookatthesevendiscretetrip"interlocks".And,here'swherethereisadefinitelackofdocumentation.Note
thatonlyonediscretetrip"interlock"isshown,butthatthereareseventotal.Notealsothatthe"TRP"legoftheinput
goes"ToJX1JY1JZ1"whicharereferencestocablesconnectingtheTRPGtoeachofthreeVPROs(<X>,<Y>and
<Z>).So,theTRPlegsofeachoftheseveninputsgototheVPROnotto<Q>,andsomehow,inthefirmwareofthe
VPROthestateoftheinputismonitoredandusedasa"permissive"fortheRelayDriveroutputsfrom<X>,<Y>and
<Z>totheETRcoilcircuits(overthesamecables,JX1,JY1andJZ1).So,whatappearstobehappeningisthatthe
trip"interlocks"arebeingusedaspermissives(normallyclosedcontacts)fortheRelayDriveroutputsfrom<X>,<Y>
and<Z>VPROstotheETRcircuitsontheTRPG.
So,thisisthehardwarepartofthetripcircuitandhowitworksasbestascanbedeterminedfromtheinformationand
drawingsintheSystemGuide.
Hopefully,theaboveinconjunctionwiththeproperdrawingintheSystemGuidehelptoexplainthecircuitsand
howtheyallwork.

By Neo
CSA

on 1 November, 2014 - 10:58 pm

Thankyouforyourdetailedresponse,anditreallyhelps!
1)
"Yes;youarebasicallycorrectthattherearefourbasicwaystotriptheturbineviatheSpeedtronicturbinecontrol
system:"
CSA,doyoumeanthereareotherwaystotriptheturbinewhichisnotviatheSpeedtronicturbinecontrolsystem:"?
Likemechanicaloverspeedtrip?
2)
3)Seven(7)discretetripinputstoTRPGwhichopentotrip;rememberthesecannotbeinverted,andtheycannotbe
forcedinToolbox/ToolboxST.
So,theTRPlegsofeachoftheseveninputsgototheVPROnotto<Q>,andsomehow,inthefirmwareoftheVPRO
thestateoftheinputismonitoredandusedasa"permissive"fortheRelayDriveroutputsfrom<X>,<Y>and<Z>
totheETRcoilcircuits(overthesamecables,JX1,JY1andJZ1).
CSA,iamnotclearabouttherelationshipbetweenL4and7discretetripinputs.Arethese7discreteinputsonepartof
L4TlogicortheyareindependentofL4T?Arethese7discretetripinputsonlymonitoredin<P>core?Orcanwesee
therslogicsignalsviatoolbox?
Canyoutakeoneexampleofthese7tripinputs?Iamwonderingwhatkindofdiscreteinputsshouldbeconnectedto
TREGterminalboard.
Icheckedonmysite,andthinkl86tgt1maybeoneofthe7tripinputs,anditisonepartofL4Tlogic.
3)
So,whatappearstobehappeningisthatthetrip"interlocks"arebeingusedaspermissives(normallyclosed
contacts)fortheRelayDriveroutputsfrom<X>,<Y>and<Z>VPROstotheETRcircuitsontheTRPG.

Yousaidtheyarenormallyclosedcontacts.Doesthatmeanifthetripinputislogic0,thentheturbinetrips?
Hopeiamclearthistime.
Bestregards!
Neo

By CSA
on 4 November, 2014 - 8:48 am
1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
Neo,
1)Yes;therearewaystotriptheturbineviatheControlOilorTripOilsystem.Unitswithamechanicaloverspeed
boltwilltripviatheControlorTripOilsystems,andsomeunitshaveamanual"Trip"buttonorleverinthe
AccessoryCompartmentthatwillalsotriptheturbineviatheControlorTripOilSystem.
2)Idon'thaveaccesstoaMarkVISystemGuideatthepresenttimeorIwouldrefertotheVPRO/TREGsectionto
trytogiveamoreconciseanswer.GEdoessome"unusual"andinconsistentthingsfromtimetotime,andIbelieve
thisisoneofthoseconsistentlyinconsistentthingsusingtheTREGdiscreteinputsintheL4Trung(s).Theseseven
discretetripinputswereessentiallyaddedtotheTREGforSIMPLEXtrippingpurposes,anditwasmyunderstanding
thattheywerenottypicallyusedforTMRapplications.TheyweremeanttobeusedtotripviatheETRsintheevent
thatcommunicationbetween<R>and<P>waslostineffect,abackuporredundanttripmethod.Usually,asecond
contactofthelowlowL.O.pressureswitch,forexample,waswiredtotheTREGandusedtotriptheturbineinthe
eventthat<R>didn'trecognizeachangeofstateofit'slowlowL.O.pressuretripdiscreteinput.
BecausethereisnoapplicationcodewhichisvisibleusingToolboxin<P>Ibelievethatsomeindividualsaddthe
TREGdiscretetripinputstoanL4Trungsothatthereismore"visibility"ifoneofthemshouldactuallytripthe
turbine.
IalsobelievethattherearetimedoverridesforsomeoftheseTREGdiscretetripinputsbecausetheymightnotbe
closedwhenaSTARTisinitiatedandsoatimedelayisrequiredtoallowthesignaltocloseandaSTARTtoprogress.
Ihavedonethistestmanyyearsago(perhapsphilosophyorfirmwarehaschangedbutItendtothinknot):Iwould
jumperalloftheTREGdiscretetripinputswhichwereenabledonaparticularMarkVI(usuallyoneofthe"skeleton"
MarkVISIMPLEXpanels)andthenforceL4_XTPtoalogic"0"topickuptheETRrelays.Iwouldalsoforce
L20FG1X,forexample,topickupthePTRstoenergize20FG1.ThenIwouldopeneachoftheTREGdiscreteinput
circuitsoneatatimeandobservethattheETRswoulddropoutand20FG1woulddropoutandIdidnotobserve
thatthePTRswoulddropout(becausetheseTREGdiscreteinputswereNOTusedinanyL4Trung).Thiswould
prove(tome)thatanyofthesevenTREGdiscretetripinputswouldindeeddeactuatetheETRrelays,resultinginade
energizationofthefueltripsolenoid.
Again,thereisno"visible"applicationcodein<P>toobservehowthisworks;it'sjustcodedinfirmware.Ibelievein
anolderversionoftheMarkVISystemGuideitwasdocumentedinthefirmwaredescriptionoftheVPRO/TREG
cards,butIdon'thaveaccesstothatasthiswriting.
Idon'tbelieveit'snecessarytouseanyoftheTREGdiscretetripinputsinanyL4TrungtoactuallytriptheturbineI
thinkitwasdonebysomeindividualsbecausetheythoughtitshouldbedone.IbelievethatifanyofthesevenTREG
discretetripinputsopenwhentheturbineisrunningthatitwilldropouttheETRrelaysbeforethechangeofstateis
transmittedto<Q>andprocessedbytheapplicationcodetodeenergizethePTRforthefueltripsolenoid.So,itjust
seemsredundant(notnecessarilywrong,butnotnecessary)tousetheTREGdiscretetripinputsinanyapplication
codeL4Trung.
That'saboutthebestexplanationIcanprovideatthistime.
3)AswediscoveredduringtheL4journey,yes;theinputsmustbeclosedduringnormaloperationandwhenthey
opentheturbinewillbetripped.Idon'trecallthesignalnamesbutacoupleofthemwere"inverted"(thesignalname
wasalogic"1"whentheunitwastoberunning,andalogic"0"whentheunitwastobetrippedwhichisoppositeof
GEdesignheavydutygasturbinecontrolphilosophy).IthinkitwasL86TGT1orsomethinglikethatintheL4rung.
Anddidn'twediscoverthatoneofthemwas"inverted"inapplicationcode???Kindof...unnecessary.
Again,wearedealingwithengineeringperformedbytheGEBelfortbunch,andtheyareprettylaxwithstandards
enforcement,justdoingwhattheythinkshouldbedoneonyourapplicationsosomeofthisisjusttobeexpected.
FinallyitwasmyunderstandingthattheTREGdiscretetripinputswereNOTtobeusedonTMRapplications,
becauseofthenatureofTMRcontrols.So,inmypersonalopinionusinganyTREGdiscretetripinputonaTMR
applicationisinunnecessary,andifonedoesuseoneormorethenthesignalnamesshouldmatch
Hopethishelps!

By Neo
on 4 November, 2014 - 7:45 pm
CSA:
Thanks!Itreallyhelps!
Bestregards
Neo

By Neo
CSA:

on 9 November, 2014 - 6:43 am

AreourL4journeycompleted?
Thoughtherearealotofstuffremainunknown,butitreallyimprovemyunderstandingofGTcontrolthroughthisL4
journey.Sothankyousomuch!
IwouldliketoknowwhereshouldigoorwhatshouldilearnastohaveagoodunderstandingofGTcontrol.
Itwouldbeagreathonorifyoushareyouropinionwithme(us).
Bestregards!
Neo

By CSA
Neo,

on 10 November, 2014 - 1:15 pm

Iwouldanswerno;ourL4journeyisnotcomplete,aswedidn'tfinishalloftheL4Trungs(atleastIdon'tthinkwe
did).
Asforwhat'snext,well,that'suptoyou.Whatdoyouwanttodiscussnext?We'vetalkedaboutinversionmasking;
dropouttorun;signalnaming.OthertopicsmightincludeLVDTcalibration;servovalveoperation;andsoon.
It'syourcall.I'mreadytogowhereyouwanttotakethis.

By Neo
CSA

on 15 November, 2014 - 5:59 am

Thankyouforyourresponse.
Yeah,youareright,L4Tisnotfinished.ButiwouldliketocontinueL4Tlater,asitneedsawidevarietyof
backgroundinformation.IsitOK?
Fornow,iwouldliketolearnservooperationandLVDTcalibration.Whatshouldidofirstandshouldiopenanew
thread?
Bestregards!
Neo

By CSA
Neo,

on 16 November, 2014 - 12:51 pm

Asyouwish.But,ifyouhaven'tdiscoveredthisalreadylearningbackgroundinformationaboutanythinghelpsoneto
understandhowitworks,whyitworksthewayitdoes,andhowtotroubleshootitwhenitdoesn'twork.Justknowing

thethingdoesn'tdothat.ThejourneyweareoncouldbeaboutanAllenBradley(Rockwell)PLC,oraHitachiHI
ACS,oraWoodwardgovernorcontrolsystembuttoprogramanyofthoseoneneedstounderstandhowthedevices
workandhowtheturbineissupposedtooperateusingthedevices.
Discussingservovalveswithoutthebenefitofdrawings/graphicsisgoingtobedifficult,soletmethinkabouthowwe
aregoingtodothatonthisforum.
LVDTcalibrationwouldbeeasierifwehadtheabilitytousedrawingsandgraphics,butwecantrytoaccomplishthis
withoutthemandseehowitgoes.
And,alwayswhenstrayingfromthethemeofthecurrentthreadoneshouldopenanewthread.

By G.Rajesh
on 28 October, 2014 - 9:35 am
Veryhappytoseethedetaileddiscussion.
Goaheadforgreatsuccess.
Takecare
G.Rajesh

By Ann on 16 November, 2014 - 8:32 pm

By CSA
on 16 November, 2014 - 11:54 pm
0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
Ann,
>Isthistrue?+125VDCand125VDC?
>Not+62.5VDCand62.5VDC?
>PleasecorrectmeifIamwrong.
Thereferenceistothepositiveandnegativelegsofthenominal125VDCsource,whichcanbehigherorlowerthan
+62.5VDCand62.5VDCdependingonthenumberofcellsofthebatteryandthesettingofthebatterycharger.You
arecorrectifthebatteryvoltageisexactly125VDCANDtherearenogroundsoneitherlegofthebatterysupply.
But,it'scommontouseeitherreference(+125VDCand125VDC,or+62.5VDCand62.5VDC),andforbatteriesa
nominalvoltageof130VDC,+65VDCand65VDC.That'swhysometimesthereferenceistojust+125VDCand
125VDCthenominalbatterysupplyvoltage.
Hopethishelps!

By AmrKaram24
DearCSA

on 15 April, 2015 - 11:32 pm

ican'tseeanyreplyssincethisone.
AreyouandNeochangedthethread?!!!
Pleasefeedmeback...

>>Isthistrue?+125VDCand125VDC?
>>Not+62.5VDCand62.5VDC?
>
>>PleasecorrectmeifIamwrong.
>
>Thereferenceistothepositiveandnegativelegsofthe
>nominal125VDCsource,whichcanbehigherorlowerthan
>+62.5VDCand62.5VDCdependingonthenumberofcellsof
>thebatteryandthesettingofthebatterycharger.Youare
>correctifthebatteryvoltageisexactly125VDC
>ANDtherearenogroundsoneitherlegofthebattery
>supply.
>
>But,it'scommontouseeitherreference(+125VDCand125
>VDC,or+62.5VDCand62.5VDC),andforbatteriesa
>nominalvoltageof130VDC,+65VDCand65VDC.That'swhy
>sometimesthereferenceistojust+125VDCand125
>VDCthenominalbatterysupplyvoltage.

By CSA
on 16 April, 2015 - 1:01 pm
IbelieveNeolostinterestinthisdiscussionandwantedtotalkaboutelectrohydraulicservovalves.IadmitIhaven't
finishedwritingthatdescription,havingmademanyeditsandstilllookingforawayto"draw"someconceptsbecause
apicture"...is[still]worthathousandwords."
Ifyouhavequestions,wewilltrytofindanswers.Thesethreadsgotquitelong,andthereareotherrelatedthreads(just
clickonNeo'snameandyouwillfindothersimilarthreads).

By sjtusyc
CSA;

on 16 April, 2015 - 9:54 pm

Haven'tseenyouforlongtime.Ihavetosayineverlostinterestingasturbinecontrollogic.IhavebeenreadingCSP
withthemethodyoutaughtme.Furthermore,ibuildgasturbinemodelstodosimulation,andifindithelpsalotin
understandingcontrollogic.
Iamalwayswillingtocontinuethisjourneyifyouhavetimeandinterest.Itbenefitsmanypeoplefromtheworld.
Bestregards!
Neo