Talk:Q28004591

Position not an occupation

Just check out what it is a subclass of. People are employed by a university have whatever occupation but Professor is never an occupation always a position. PLease add a restriction to that effect. Thanks, GerardM (talk) 06:31, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

I came with the same point but as a question: do we agree that this item is about a position and not an occuption? I did a query (see below) and found that there is 536 use with occupation (P106) and 169 with position held (P39) but I guess it should always be position held (P39).

SELECT ?directprop ?propLabel (COUNT(?item) AS ?compte) WHERE {
  ?item ?directprop wd:Q28004591 .
  ?prop wikibase:directClaim ?directprop .
  SERVICE wikibase:label { bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "[AUTO_LANGUAGE],en". }
}
GROUP BY ?directprop ?propLabel
ORDER BY DESC(?compte)

Try it!

If there is no objection, I suggest to move this value from occupation (P106) to position held (P39) (maybe only for professor in France?). @Daehan, TomT0m, Nomen ad hoc: what do you think?

Cdlt/Cheers, VIGNERON en résidence (talk) 14:40, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

 Support, sounds logical indeed. Nomen ad hoc (talk) 14:59, 3 January 2022 (UTC).

@VIGNERON en résidence A definition of what makes a difference between the two would help. It’s not exactly the same activities associated to professors in a university than with less graded personnel. For example it’s easy to find resources that mention this as an occupation : http://etudiant.aujourdhui.fr/etudiant/metiers/fiche-metier/professeur-d-universite.html author  TomT0m / talk page 17:09, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Hello,

I agree: "professor" is both a position and an occupation. What would be the occupation of a professor, then? Daehan (talk) 17:41, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

@Nomen ad hoc, TomT0m, Daehan: I agree that the word "professeur" can be both, but here this is a specific word ("professeur des universités") and a specific item. Right now, the class is a bit messy, confusing the the fonction and the occupation, etc. but we can clean this so professeur des universités (Q28004591) would be the function only and university teacher (Q1622272) the occupation (the second having the exact same label as in TomT0m link, which is not the same as this item label). Is there still objection to clean-up? or do we need to look more into it? Cheers, VIGNERON en résidence (talk) 10:37, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

@VIGNERON en résidence I meant the difference between the occupation and function concept. The distinction is not always very clear to me I guess.

To be a « professeur des université » in france you need a special diploma that acknowledge you can do research management, and an attribution. To me the fact that you have a different diploma (the HDR) compared to, say, a « maitre de conférence », sanction the fact this is not exactly the same occupation. The item professeur d'université (Q1622272) is still something different as it’s supposed to sanction anybody that teaches in a university (by the same logic, we have a different item for someone that teaches in a university than any other kind of teaching ? I guess one could argue this is the same occupation only the attribution differ)

I guess that by « function » you mean something like a « chair » , or a « poste » in french ? author  TomT0m / talk page 11:20, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

@TomT0m: to say it simply, an occupation is more what you do and a function is more what you are. Obvisouly this is closely related and it often intersect but this is not the point here (there was much discussions already like for politics, military or ecclesiastic where the occupation and function are also close but distinct). You can have the title of professor (what you are, on the paper) whitout doing any teaching (the concrete occupation) and vice-versa. But again, this is not the point here. This item is more a function but is more often use as an occupation, either whe change the item or its uses but one way or the other we should fix it. Cheers, VIGNERON en résidence (talk) 12:09, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

I don’t think that you « simply » is simple :) At least I don’t really understand.

My model would be :

• Function :  an organisation needs someone to do some kind of stuff, it opens a position for this. You’re qualified to make these stuff, you can apply and if you’re chosen you occupy the position (say you’re elected to be president). « Function » is the name of classes of position, we say it’s your function if you occupy the position. Example of position : President of the USA. A class of positions : chair (Q1363750)
• Occupation : a class of activities you make for a living.

Do we really need to make a distinction, actually ? A « professeur d’université » is not a « professeur d’université » if he never occupied such a position. Such a function / position comes naturally with the set of activities associated to the profession : teaching, researching, team leading.

I don’t think we actually need to make the distinction if we say that the « function » property takes either a specific position like « president of the united states », or a more generic item like a class of positions (professeur des université) qualified with more informations about the position instance. I think we could adopt the convention that the value could be a profession qualified by informations about where/when… the profession is occupied.

A « function » is then a « profession » with additional informations on when/where the profession was concretely practiced.

Additionally, when the function statement value is a concrete position, like « president of the united state », we may have a way to link its item to the kind of occupation associated to that position. author  TomT0m / talk page 12:48, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

As I said, this is not the point, there is two distinct properties, if you have a question about them, you can go to Property talk:P39 and/or Property talk:P106 (PS: the occupation corresponding to « President of the United States » is « politician », this is not the same granularity norcloseness as professor/teacher).

My point here is the problem of inconsistency, some people use position held (P39), some use occupation (P106) (maybe sometime with a specific intent or maybe not, either way the meaning is mostly lost when data are inconsistent) and it makes importing, editing, maintaining and querrying data harder for everyone. Meanwhile, waiting for a consensus, I'll correct the most obvious/trivial errors (like Special:Diff/1556018098, this person died long before "professeur des universités" was created).

Cheers, VIGNERON en résidence (talk) 14:54, 4 January 2022 (UTC)